Re: #7: “Chlorine Elemental, kill all the humans in the courtyard.”
I think as long as you treat magic as existing in a seperate world that just happens to produce results in the more conventional, scientific/technological world, there's actually little risk in treating the latter as the "real" world and running into the Helium Elemental problem; people who start thinking in terms of the latter too much lose their ability to connect with the mystical world that's what allows magic to "do work" in the engineering sense, so its basically a non-starter.
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From mUrielw:
"Of course, if one had played more RPGs, one would have realized that shacking up with people whose goal is "fulfill the ancient prophecies so that my dead god might rule once more over the earth, and cull those not among our cult" is rarely a good idea."
Re: #7: “Chlorine Elemental, kill all the humans in the courtyard.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strange Visitor
...people who start thinking in terms of the latter too much lose their ability to connect with the mystical world that's what allows magic to "do work" in the engineering sense, so its basically a non-starter.
I would agree, except that you have systems that try to merge science and magic. People over analyze the mystical world.
I think we're saying the same thing -- if you buy into "elements" as four mystical thingamabobs that don't have anything to do with science, then you're good. It's when you get systems that try to bring the magic into the modern era without sufficient polish, you get into trouble.
Re: #7: “Chlorine Elemental, kill all the humans in the courtyard.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by odheirre
I would agree, except that you have systems that try to merge science and magic. People over analyze the mystical world.
I think we're saying the same thing -- if you buy into "elements" as four mystical thingamabobs that don't have anything to do with science, then you're good. It's when you get systems that try to bring the magic into the modern era without sufficient polish, you get into trouble.
Sure. I'm just saying its not necessary to have the actual world be "mystical' for magic to work on a mystical paradigm; the two can coexist as long as one doesn't try to apply the rules of one to the other.
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Afraid to fly, don't know why.
From mUrielw:
"Of course, if one had played more RPGs, one would have realized that shacking up with people whose goal is "fulfill the ancient prophecies so that my dead god might rule once more over the earth, and cull those not among our cult" is rarely a good idea."
Re: #7: “Chlorine Elemental, kill all the humans in the courtyard.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strange Visitor
Sure. I'm just saying its not necessary to have the actual world be "mystical' for magic to work on a mystical paradigm; the two can coexist as long as one doesn't try to apply the rules of one to the other.
Except it's in the nature of science to find reasoning and understanding in those things with which reasoning and understanding cannot apply.
Mysticism in and of itself however is a funny thing when one thinks of the immaterial. Magic can be said to be control of the immaterial in order to have material affects. However, could the same thing not be said for science?
Re: #7: “Chlorine Elemental, kill all the humans in the courtyard.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tark
Except it's in the nature of science to find reasoning and understanding in those things with which reasoning and understanding cannot apply.
Doesn't mean it'll work, though.
Quote:
Mysticism in and of itself however is a funny thing when one thinks of the immaterial. Magic can be said to be control of the immaterial in order to have material affects. However, could the same thing not be said for science?
Its not the issue of materiality and immateriality that create the problem; its that magic is almost always, to some degree, based psychological and social rules having direct physical effects, and that's just not something science can engage with very well.
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Afraid to fly, don't know why.
From mUrielw:
"Of course, if one had played more RPGs, one would have realized that shacking up with people whose goal is "fulfill the ancient prophecies so that my dead god might rule once more over the earth, and cull those not among our cult" is rarely a good idea."
Re: #7: “Chlorine Elemental, kill all the humans in the courtyard.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strange Visitor
Doesn't mean it'll work, though.
Its not the issue of materiality and immateriality that create the problem; its that magic is almost always, to some degree, based psychological and social rules having direct physical effects, and that's just not something science can engage with very well.
How is that true? Psychology has a direct physical effect given that we do things our brains tell us to. Not to mention that our brains are physical.
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Re: #7: “Chlorine Elemental, kill all the humans in the courtyard.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strange Visitor
Its not the issue of materiality and immateriality that create the problem; its that magic is almost always, to some degree, based psychological and social rules having direct physical effects, and that's just not something science can engage with very well.
Of course we can. If it can be measured, predicted, and experimented with then science can not only explain it, but control it. Keep in mind in many settings your typical wizard is also a very learned man with knowledge beyond his spellbook. I imagine the core of many new spells lie in the measurements and experimentations of existing spells on mathematics.
Re: #7: “Chlorine Elemental, kill all the humans in the courtyard.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tark
Of course we can. If it can be measured, predicted, and experimented with then science can not only explain it, but control it. Keep in mind in many settings your typical wizard is also a very learned man with knowledge beyond his spellbook. I imagine the core of many new spells lie in the measurements and experimentations of existing spells on mathematics.
Ah, but in many magic systems, it _isn't_ all that predictable; there are often effectively random elements outside your measuring (tides of the spirit world, the mood of the caster, and so on). Not all magic, even game magic, is that precise. In some cases its not rationale at all, but intuitive; even when it is rational in part, its often rational in the way sociology or psychology is; which is to say you can take systematic approaches to it, but your predictive capability is limited by nature of process.
And even in cases where its _absolutely_ predictable, that doesn't mean it relates to other science in any mapable way; they can, in fact, contradict each other's expected results in ways that cannot be reconciled short of a metascientific examination that may be beyond the tools of any humans to do.
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Afraid to fly, don't know why.
From mUrielw:
"Of course, if one had played more RPGs, one would have realized that shacking up with people whose goal is "fulfill the ancient prophecies so that my dead god might rule once more over the earth, and cull those not among our cult" is rarely a good idea."
Re: #7: “Chlorine Elemental, kill all the humans in the courtyard.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tark
Magic can be said to be control of the immaterial in order to have material affects. However, could the same thing not be said for science?
I would say no; science is control of the material in order to have material effects. Which leads me to wonder what it would look like if control of the material could have effects on the immaterial. Ghostbusters comes to mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Something Else
How is that true? Psychology has a direct physical effect given that we do things our brains tell us to. Not to mention that our brains are physical.
You're talking about the physical brain having a psychological effect, not the psychological having a physical effect. An example of the latter would be "true love's kiss".
Also, you (and Tark) seem to be operating from a reductionist worldview. If magic can be explained as the result of natural forces, it's not really magic, it's just "sufficiently advanced technology".
Wyvern
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