How do you threaten a Call of Cthulhu character with 77 hit points?

[AmericanBadass]

Originally posted by Seanchai


I checked it out. I didn't find anything in the d20 CoC rulebook about it, but the DMG caps the damage at 20d6.

Seanchai

Wow! so a 13th level Navy Seal can HALO jump from orbit without a parchute, make his DC15 Massive Damage save and continue on his mission?
And I thought I was the Balls Out king.


I rememer the old Palladium arguement about Mecha and falling (even from orbit) not doing MDC, this out balls outs even Rifts.

[Ian ORourke]

Originally posted by AmericanBadass
Wow! so a 13th level Navy Seal can HALO jump from orbit without a parchute, make his DC15 Massive Damage save and continue on his mission?

Damn right, he can HALO jump from a plane without a parachute, hit the ground running (he passes his Massive Damage save) and runs 20 miles through the Jungle to face CoC and tell him the jungle ain't big enough for the both of them.

Edited in - Before, with gritted teeth, be turned into a gibbering idiot because of the SAN loss.

[AmericanBadass]

I like your thinking Ian.

Only the shadow knows how badass you are.

I have the CD set of radio broadcasts of the Shadow...I believe Orson Wells does the voice acting. Very cool. It's been a long time since I've listened to them...I am going to put them on.

[Justin Bacon]

Originally posted by contracycle
Oh sure you could - if you did not want those characters to be able, say, to snipe like an army marksman.

I don't see how that follows.

5th level character -- +4 BAB
Ability Modifier -- +5
Weapon Focus (sniper rifle) -- +1

That gives me a +10 attack bonus. +5 for taking time to line up a shot gives me +15.

Now my target can be up to 5 range increments away, and (assuming his AC is 10) I'll hit 95% of the time -- I, literally, cannot have any surer chance of hitting a target within the system's accuracy threshold. Assuming my sniper rifle has a decent range increment (which is a good asumption -- it's a sniper rifle), this makes me pretty potent.

Justin Bacon
triad3204@aol.com

[Chris Aylott]

[AB's orbital SEAL deployment example snipped]

Damn.

I finally went and looked up the massive damage rule in D20 CoC, and finally saw that -- contrary to my incorrect understanding of it -- the save was a flat DC15.

American Badass is right. That's an idiotic rule. At the moment I have no idea what Monte Cook was smoking when he wrote that.

Me, I would have set the roll at DC (5 + damage suffered). If we go back to the SEAL example and assume the dice come up average, that means Lt. Rocketjox is making a save against DC 75. Sounds about right to me.

Another possible change -- perhaps a better one -- would be to add a line to the coup de grace rule reading, "The GM may apply the coup-de-grace rule whenever the character suffers massive damage and has no chance of mitigating or avoiding it." That gives the GM leeway to decide whether a situation just hurts a lot or is almost invariably a fatal experience.

Either of those would work, but IMHO the rule that's there just won't do.

yours,

[Harbinger]

I didn't say Autofire wasn't deadly, I said it was very innaccurate.

I should have said that even professional soldiers don't hit what they are aming at very often with autofire. What they do is throw out so many bullets that everything in the area of the fire is at risk of getting hit. (this is why I prefer the spycraft autofire rules ofer the CoCD20/SWD20)

Autofire is primarily designed to force your enemy to keep his head down and to keep him from advancing. If your enemy is stupid/brave enough to charge a machine gun nest he is not worried about any singel bullet but the sheer number of bullets makes the area very deadly.

I will also contend that most federal agents have little to no experience with automatic weapons. The only guys in the FBI that get to use them semi regularly are the HRT guys. Police officers are the same. Only the Swat guys get to carry around the big guns and only when training or on a mission. So it makes sense for Cthulhu investigators to not be proficient with automatic weapons, even if they are FBI Agents.

Even a Navy SEAL is not allowed to carry a fully automatic weapon around when not on a mission or training. So Autofire should be extremely rare in a CoC game.

ALos your librarian who was merely wanted for questioning is now facing assault charges and resisting arrest charges. What would have been a few hours of inconvenience is now going to land her in jail for a long time.

Make the characters face real consequenses for thier actions. She may not be afraid of a 1st level cop, but that 1st level judge can sure make her life hell.

[AmericanBadass]

200 feet per range incriment. We tried to make a 4th level sniper...at a 1000 yards he is firing at a -12(-24 without scope).
He didn't have far shot feat yet.

He basically sucked.


But I did forget to factor the +5 taking time bonus.
I didn't see that rule anywhere...enlighten me bro.

[Will]

Yeah, a sniper sucks... with a -12, that's a .. 30% chance of making the shot on an AC 10 target about 2/3 of a mile away, assuming no cover and a snap shot.
(Assuming 18 Dex)

Uh.

Or a 55% chance, if he takes a round to aim.

Yeah, that really sucks.

Oh, and a guy with no proficiency in the weapon would have a 10%/35% chance of making the shot.

[Harbinger]

1000 yards is a pretty long shot for anyone.

that is over half a mile.

1000yds=3000ft
5280ft=1mile

1000yds=.568 miles

Professional military snipers should be able to make this shot, Almost anyone else will consider this to be almost impossible. 100 to 200 yds with a 30-06 is a reasonable range to be shooting a rifle from for most normal people. (this info gained from the guy a share my cubicle with, Marine Force Recon who served two tours in Vietnam)

Marines are required to qualify with an M-16 in single shot at 1000yds on a target range.

In actual combat conditions anything beyond about 50yds is almost impossible.

[AmericanBadass]

30% accuracy for a Marine Sniper would be considered atroucious and no way would he be called a Sniper.
And 1000 yds isn't even that long of a shot.

A regular soldier has to qualify at 500 yards with iron sights.

[Seanchai]

Originally posted by Gwydion


I'll apologize for the tone of my initial post then. I will note that I recall this rule being in place when I played in college (7 years or so ago) and I'm pretty sure that it wasn't 5.6.1 then... perhaps they've flip flopped?
Kevin

It's not in 4th edition...

Seanchai

[Jan-Willem van den Broek]

Originally posted by Justin Bacon


I don't see how that follows.

5th level character -- +4 BAB
Ability Modifier -- +5
Weapon Focus (sniper rifle) -- +1

That gives me a +10 attack bonus. +5 for taking time to line up a shot gives me +15.

Now my target can be up to 5 range increments away, and (assuming his AC is 10) I'll hit 95% of the time -- I, literally, cannot have any surer chance of hitting a target within the system's accuracy threshold. Assuming my sniper rifle has a decent range increment (which is a good asumption -- it's a sniper rifle), this makes me pretty potent.

Justin Bacon
triad3204@aol.com

How would a level 5 character get an ability modifier of +5?
Also iirc lining up a shot only works against immobile targets (it's in the "striking an object" text of the PHB. Should be in the CoC20 book too).

[Harbinger]

200 ft per range increment is the problem here. Most games don't give sniper rifes anywhere near the range they should have. look at shadowrun for an example.

If CoC follows the players handbook max range = 10*range increment whiich would be 2000 feet. (I don't have my book handy so I don't know what CoCD20 says about max range.)

This is very low. Sniper rifles are good to about a mile and the .50 is good to 2-3 miles. it still takes a good sniper to hit at these ranges.

[AmericanBadass]

Generally I have always heard that about a 1000 yards is the range of most snipers.
but the good ones can go further.

[AmericanBadass]

The question I orignally posed is still out there.

Even if your somebody hit Yuri from 1000 yards away unless he blew his Massive Damage roll he would be fine after taking the hit, he might not know where it came from. At a +11 Fort save even the most accurate high powered rifle "hit?" would only kill him if he rolled a 4 or lower.

Eventually he will roll bad and things will all even out.
I can't wait to actually see if I can kill this character.
The player is getting cocky.

[Justin Bacon]

Originally posted by Jan-Willem van den Broek
How would a level 5 character get an ability modifier of +5?
Also iirc lining up a shot only works against immobile targets (it's in the "striking an object" text of the PHB. Should be in the CoC20 book too).

Whoops. You're right. I was thinking of the 1st ability boost, but didn't think it all the way through. I wish I had my books in front of me.

Still, I think the general point stands.

JB

[Justin Bacon]

Originally posted by Harbinger
200 ft per range increment is the problem here. Most games don't give sniper rifes anywhere near the range they should have. look at shadowrun for an example.

Then the problem is in the equipment design, not the actual rules. I'd say a high quality sniper rifle should probably have a range increment of 1000 feet. Top-of-the-line sniper rifles should probably have a range increment of 1500 feet.

I'd probably want some form of mechanic to represent the fact that they aren't all that effective at close ranges (both for realism, and to balance out their long range increments).

JB

[NPC Jeremy]

The trouble is, it's hard to talk about sniper rifles without being specific. There are all sorts.

The biggest do have extremely long ranges. But even then you need a clear line of site. Which is tough in most circumstances. Generally the sniper also needs higher ground

[ced1106]

Originally posted by AmericanBadass
The question I orignally posed is still out there.

Even if your somebody hit Yuri from 1000 yards away unless he blew his Massive Damage roll he would be fine after taking the hit, he might not know where it came from. At a +11 Fort save even the most accurate high powered rifle "hit?" would only kill him if he rolled a 4 or lower.

Eventually he will roll bad and things will all even out.
I can't wait to actually see if I can kill this character.
The player is getting cocky.

Death? Death is too easy! lol

Make these guys use their brains, not their guns. Modern Day Cthulhu gives the players as many toys as they want -- none which help, of course. Fractal monsters from magnetic fields? Psionic experimentation accidentally opening doors to nightmarish cities? Cthulhu in the machine?

Looks like you try a lot of different ideas, but too many seem to involved gunfire. "From Dusk Till Dawn" horror is fun, but if it gets to an arms race, see if you can do the classic stuff with a modern twist.


Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^

[Gwydion]

Originally posted by Seanchai


It's not in 4th edition...



Apparently I hallucinated it. Though I very distinctly recall that dodge didn't get used much. Perhaps it was just the fact that you lost your attack meant that you would get hit eventually, so you might as well dish it out.
Kevin

[Denaes]

Originally posted by AmericanBadass
The question I orignally posed is still out there.

Even if your somebody hit Yuri from 1000 yards away unless he blew his Massive Damage roll he would be fine after taking the hit, he might not know where it came from. At a +11 Fort save even the most accurate high powered rifle "hit?" would only kill him if he rolled a 4 or lower.

Eventually he will roll bad and things will all even out.
I can't wait to actually see if I can kill this character.
The player is getting cocky.

Remember, getting shot is intense pain, and even though it may not even be deadly, its still VERY painful.

Does D20 have a save vs pain?

Does D20 have any rules for torn ligiments or muscles? flat out, you get hit in your arm, you're not using it.

Flat out, you get hit in your leg, it may not be lethal, you may have enough adrenalyne going through you to function, but you're not walking on your own.

You get hit in the hand and you'll be lucky to have it work again.

getting hit in the head isn't 100% death, but at least 50%-75% chance of death.

Maybe make the guns deal more damage at 'point blank' (within 1/4th of their total range).

Sure getting hit with buckshot may not be entirly dehibilitating, but you're at best going to function for combat. You're not going to go walking around with 18 lead pellets inside of you, risking lead poising and ignoring pain like only a RPG character can.

I'll admit, in some circumstances, with drugs, powers, willpower, a character might keep going with gunshot wounds. but this is more like a 'climatic ending' deal. "Must forget the pain, my life is meaningless, I need to stop Mr Smoke from summoning that demon to destroy my home town".

in cases like that I'd let the realism slide.


Player: "Ha ha, 15 points of damage! I could take them all on by myself!"

GM rolls dice "well you could have, but you took a hit to your left leg... reduce your dex by 3/4ths for AC purposes. You're not quite prone, but you won't be jumping, running or much else other than rolling or walking by pulling yourself along with your upper body"

Player: ::Gulps:: "umm, that does suck. Group find cover... wait, pull my sorry ass back behind that car first!"

GM: "Oh, I'm sorry, theres also that save vs pain..."

Player: "Cripes... next time lets not barge in, so we can get the drop on them before they shoot us full of holes"

[Tom B]

Originally posted by Gwydion


Apparently I hallucinated it. Though I very distinctly recall that dodge didn't get used much. Perhaps it was just the fact that you lost your attack meant that you would get hit eventually, so you might as well dish it out.
Kevin

I quoted the 4th edition rules earlier in the thread (around midnight last night). No mention of only dodging the first attack.

It does say that you have to see the missile, though, which would seem to rule out dodging bullets.

[Gwydion]

Originally posted by Tom B


I quoted the 4th edition rules earlier in the thread (around midnight last night). No mention of only dodging the first attack.

It does say that you have to see the missile, though, which would seem to rule out dodging bullets.

I *know* that the attack thing was in there... unless the entire group spontaneously hallucinated that. Don't know what edition its was though, it was '93 or '94 when we were playing. The book may have been a couple of years older (or not -- wasn't my book and memory fails).
Kevin

[Big Willy]

AB,
I have noticed that you have been having problems with keeping your players in check. I believe that you must ask yourself a few questions regarding your style of play, namely what type of game you are playing. It is paramount that you address this, as your players will run all over you (as it seems they have been doing) if you do not.
It certainly seems that you have your faculties about you and are trying to run a fun game for your friends, yet for some reason all is for naught.
Your posts seem to indicate that you are running a CofC game, yet all your problems lie in the arena a gunplay...This would indicate to me that you are running guns too much...as has been previously stated, this type of gunplay is better suited towards a SpyCraft game with potential CofC interests as opposed to a _true_ CofC game. In this I would advise you of using the requisite rules and adding the devastating CofC monsters (ie, one or two Dark Young, if played correctly, would most likely destroy your entire group of pcs...). This is a win win situation for everyone, as your players would certainly learn a thing or two about fear and you would have the pesky (and, in my view, far too augmented) characters out of the scene.
If you truly wish to run a Lovecraftian campaign, you absolutely must start the PCs at first level. If you are concerned about skills and so on being too meager for a real world feel, please remember that you are the Keeper, and can use your authority to establish what is acceptable, be it in game or meta game; You can decide if an FBI agent can pick a lock or not, or if a policeman can take down a librarian..
I suppose what I am saying is thit It's Your World. Don't let a player or character railroad you into doing anything you don't like. They can't enjoy a game without you and, it seems, you players need to be reminded of this.
Forgive me if I sound preachy, and I am sorry if I have offended anyone's sensibilities; Role playing is, for many of us, an escape from the doldrums of the real world, and I find it difficult at best to read about a person as obviously passionate about as I am who has, perchance, an askew (as I see it) idea about who really runs the show.
My friend (if I may so bold as to call you that) it is truly your world.

Have fun.

Big Willy

[AmericanBadass]

I hear you bro.

I think the problem with my game is a combination of things.

First the gamers themselves. they play a lot of high level D&D and are overstimulated by all the high powered flash and ungodly levels of power they are used to. Summoninig Gods to do their bidding and calling up angelic armies is not out of their scope of gameplay.
So when they are asked to come back down a little closer to reality, it is a big let down for them. It would sort of be like a person who all his life drove very fast, nimble cars with a lot of zeal and then asked to trade it in for a golf cart. They ain't gonna be happy.

I think maybe D&D D20 with its MaxWazoo ballsout Uber kick-assitude, conditions some players to expect more out of their games and to ask them to settle for something a little more pedestrian offends their gaming pallette. I enjoy a Powergame as much as anyone else does, but you can't watch Rambo and Terminator movies over and over...once in a while a 9th Gate or a Angel Heart is a nice change of pace.
I think my gamers may be a lost cause....I can either get with the program and turn the Balls-Out Factor all the way up or fold the game.

I definately think a lot of gamers around here are way overstimulated...I have seen them jump from Gonzo Warhammer 40K, to Magic up to their eyebrows, to Legend of 5 Rings, to D&D D20 Gonzo-level, EverCrack online and now a lot of them are going Gaa-gaa for Mage Knight. There is too much flash going on and too many super-trends coming in wave after wave. I don't usually jump on to the various bandwagons as they scream past...I usually pick which ones I like.

It is getting hard to compete with all the other stuff out there....I actually tried to run a Chaosium based Delta Green game and couldn't get any consistant attendance...Mage Knight drew them like moths to the flame.

I wish I could find some folks with similar tastes, so I wouldn't have to be a song and dance man to keep players coming. My games are good...the players are just very distracted.

One guy I gamed withs wife left him because he played Mage Knight, card games and D&D over 40 hours a week. They had kids and he wouldn't stop gaming...she left him a few times and he would curtail it for a while then...boom right back to 40+ hours. He one time spent 75% of his paycheck on Mage Knight figs and had to borrow money off me and some of the other guys to feed his kids and keep gas in his car...this ain't no kid...he is in his 30's. His wife filed for divorce and has threatened to take his games....he was more worried about losing his games than losing his wife...His wife hates gaming like nobody I have ever seen. Her Lawyer is going after the games under the premise that they cost her her marriage and that the games are going to used for the kids. This poor schlep is going to have to go into court and explain what gaming is to the judge, how it is for adults, how his kids are too young to play them, ect. He is a dead duck. He asked me to store some of his stuff at my house...I told him no way.

He needs help. So do I.....

[Big Willy]

Wow.
That's messed up.
Sounds like this dude is up the creek. There's no way anyone should drop the cash on Mage Knight when the kids be starvin'. Maybe on some Mythos cards...

Have you tried to reign your players in? I mean really tried?

I suppose I've been blessed with good players; Perhaps I'm jaded.

In your position, I'd have taken control a lot sooner.

Picture this:

It sounds like when you sent the bobbies after the librarian, you intrinsically knew that the librarian was going to get taken in for questioning. This, my friend, is a foregone conclusion...ie the librarian gets taken in for questioning. No rolls, nothing. She gets taken in for questioning. If you want to role play it at first, fine, but eventually she gets taken in for questioning. Done.

If someone wants to stand in the stairway and take gunfire, fine. They take gunfire. Done. They are over.

I suppose if one of my players wanted to stand in front of Milton's Folly and hold of a horde of degenrate Serpent People I could do it. Guess what would happen? Hack. Slash. Bite. Posion. Done.
The badass fighter goes down.

Look at it this way: If you take on _insurmountable_ odds (the key being YOU decide what that is) you go down. Down. No rolls. You have messed with the Keeper and you go down. This is certainly what any good CofC Keeper will tell you, and I don't know why no one has said this yet. The rules are there for situations that need rolls. They are there to add drama and fun, a feeling of uncertainty, if you will. All other situations are for storytelling purposes. When Yuri wants to go toe to toe with the PD, he should go toe to toe until you feel that he's gone too far for rolling, and then just use your power to reign him in.

Again, sorry for preaching, but it seems like your players are getting the better of you and I don't want to see you take it!


Big Willy

[ced1106]

Originally posted by AmericanBadass
I think my gamers may be a lost cause....I can either get with the program and turn the Balls-Out Factor all the way up or fold the game.

Hmm... So it sounds like your gamers want one sort of game and you want another? I know what you mean -- I purposefully kept my AD&D games to 3-5th level, and don't let my CoC players even get kewl sanity-sucking sp3llz. If you're not happy running the game, you have to work it out with your players. I mean, if you're not having fun, then what's the point?

That being said, Spycraft w/ CoC overtones sounds like a good idea. Likewise, Feng Shui has room for over-the-top gunning down corrupt decrepit half-inhuman mooks like your gamers want to do. And there's always superheroes battling icky critters (just like the Evolution cartoon, lol). True munchkins don't enjoy Paranoia, but if you have a room full of buttkickers, it's a great way to go (in more ways than six, lol).

Good luck!


Cedric.

[Big Willy]

True, Cedric.

But how does AB save his game as it is now?

It seems impossible to start over...the players would probably never accept that.

It seems to me that AB needs to begin a new story arc, one that will not only challenge his characters' skills, but his players's minds. It's obvious that they love totin' guns.

This is CofC. Take what they love away from them. Not necessarily take the guns away, but take away what makes the guns fun. Take back the night, if you will.

It's time that AB take the power tripping away. The characters (regardless of level!) cannot function in AB's world unless he allows it.

It is my strong contention that these characters be given a strong dose of non-reality. That is, force them into a gate where they wind up in a situation that cannot be solved by guns. AB has created (or allowed it to be created) a world where the characters are unafeared (is that a word?) of guns. This is ABs trump card. From his previous posts, it would seem that he can reign them in with a little help, without spoiling gameplay or changing systems. The characters need to be dealt with, and the players certainly can be challenged with something new. I know Abs got rulesbooks, and I think that these books might be able to give him the spark of creativity he may need.

Big Willy out.

[James Hargrove]

Originally posted by Justin Bacon


But Robert E. Howard, Lovecraft's close friend, had Conan hacking them up.

Justin Bacon
triad3204@aol.com

Yep. That's why I was using the CoC d20 book for my Hyborean fantasy campaign ;)