[Necro] Low-CR Humanoid Tactical Challenge! Submit Your Scenarios!

[Deacon Blues]

Okay, given Random Goblin and inscrutable hahn's threadbrewing interest, I'm calling out all of RPGnet's evil DMs, armchair generals and kobold lovers. I'm giving you limited manpower but unlimited access to tactics. Give me a team of goblins, kobolds, orcs or troglodytes that would make even the nastiest fighters and wizards quiver in terror.

Your limitations are:

1. None of the monsters can have a CR higher than 1.
2. The monsters cannot have more than 1 class level (fighter, rogue, barbarian, what-have-you).
3. The exception to Rule 2 is the leader of the monsters, who can have no more than 4 class levels.
4. The monsters cannot outnumber the PCs by more than 5:1. Presume a standard party of 4 dungeon crawlers, so no more than 20 monsters.
5. No more than 1,000 gp worth of magical items for the monsters. No potion or scroll worth more than 500 gp.
6. The farther you fall below your limits, the better your scenario will be received. So a TPK produced by 10 kobolds straight out of the Monster Manual is better than one produced by 18 kobolds with levels in fighter, led by a 4th-level sorceror.

Other than that, no limits. Pick the theater of engagement, the number and type of traps set by the monsters, time of day, whatever. Design your ambushes, patrols, skirmishes, booby traps and general tactical surprises.

Game on, evil DMs!

[Deacon Blues]

To get the ball rolling, here's one by Yours Truly from inscrutable hahn's "Badass D&D Monsters" thread.

Monsters: one squad of 17 kobolds, divided into two teams of 8 kobolds each, with one 1st-level kobold sorcerer as squad leader. Total EL (don't have the DM's Guide with me, so I'm guessing): CR 2 for each team, CR 1 for the leader. EL 4 or 5 overall.

Location: relatively broad tunnel underground, but no more than 40' wide, unlit. It's presumed that, thanks to intelligence or darkvision, the kobolds spot the PCs first.

Round one: Squad leader uses color spray as suppressive fire while Alpha Unit advances, firing crossbows the while, and Bravo Unit flanks. Enemy either keeps their heads down or, looking at the colors, are stunned.

Round two: Squad leader breaks off color spray to encourage enemy movement, thus drawing fire from Alpha Unit. Bravo Unit reaches flanks, begins firing.

Rounds three, four and five: Alpha and Bravo Units assault simultaneously. Squad leader refocuses (+20 Initiative).

Round six (or earlier if the situation deteriorates): Squad leader uses magic missile on the greatest target of opportunity (priority: wizards -> clerics -> lightly-armed swordsmen [probably rogues] -> any visibly wounded) and sounds the retreat.

Round seven: Bravo Unit escorts the squad leader back to HQ, while Alpha Unit fires into the fog cloud created by the squad leader to deter any pursuers(*).

(*) Only a few humanoids, typically the heavily armed fighter types, will bother pursuing. Even with the miss chance through concealment imposed by fog, an entire squadron shooting at a couple of fighters will hit at least once. This will distract the pursuers long enough to allow the command element to escape.

[inscrutable hahn]

Good idea Deacon.

Okay then, I'll take my 20 kobolds and divide them into five four-kobold teams. We're going to set up an ambush along a wilderness trail running North/South w/ the PCs moving North.

HQ team is the furthest North. It's got the mage leader and the three archers. It's the bait.

Then the pike team. They stand in front of the archers with their little spears and make like they're defending the archers and mage (which they are- at first).

Then there's the two tripnet teams. One on either side of the road. There are four tripnets hidden across the road and secured along one side each. If any PCs charge the kobolds menacing them with spells and arrows, the net teams waits until they are halfway across then pull the nets taught, raising them about three inches off the ground and forcing multiple penalized Dex rolls on the PCs now caught in them to avoid tripping. Then they throw aditional overnetting to further secure the flailing PCs and the pike kobolds charge.

The final team is hidden at the Southernmost edge of the ambush. They're the cavalry. Their job is to ambush PC archers and casters from behind. I'll definately give them the backstab ability.

This particular ambush would work best against a group with a mounted Cavalier in it. Once the horse was down from the trip nets, the heavilly armored warrior would have a hell of a time getting up and out of the trip and over nets all over him. As the ambush leader, my goal would be to attack everyone but the cavalier. Isolating him with nets and poking at him with sticks while the archers, southern ambush team and now freed up net teams assaulted the less armored PCs.

Our goal would be to kill at least two of the PCs, preferably the cleric, withdraw, then attack again in the middle of the night.

[Cazmonster]

I've got one question and then it's off to the races.

What level party do you think you can actually threaten with your groups?

Both of the scenarios presented are scary for anybody up through say 5th level, but after that, the players are going to turn the kobolds into matching sets of luggage.

[Deacon Blues]

I've got one question and then it's off to the races.

What level party do you think you can actually threaten with your groups?

Both of the scenarios presented are scary for anybody up through say 5th level, but after that, the players are going to turn the kobolds into matching sets of luggage.I'm not sure. Judge by EL. I'd say that even a 7th-level party would be flummoxed by inscrutable hahn's scenario, though.

[Random Goblin]

I've got one question and then it's off to the races.

What level party do you think you can actually threaten with your groups?

Both of the scenarios presented are scary for anybody up through say 5th level, but after that, the players are going to turn the kobolds into matching sets of luggage.

Are you sure? That's a lot of Kobolds. If you keep them far apart from each other (i.e. distant enough that a Fireball won't take out more than two maximum) you're talking a completely different deal.

I'm working on mine. Give me some time.

[Ghola]

To get the ball rolling, here's one by Yours Truly from inscrutable hahn's "Badass D&D Monsters" thread.

Monsters: one squad of 17 kobolds, divided into two teams of 8 kobolds each, with one 1st-level kobold sorcerer as squad leader. Total EL (don't have the DM's Guide with me, so I'm guessing): CR 2 for each team, CR 1 for the leader. EL 4 or 5 overall.

Location: relatively broad tunnel underground, but no more than 40' wide, unlit. It's presumed that, thanks to intelligence or darkvision, the kobolds spot the PCs first.

Round one: Squad leader uses color spray as suppressive fire while Alpha Unit advances, firing crossbows the while, and Bravo Unit flanks. Enemy either keeps their heads down or, looking at the colors, are stunned.

Round two: Squad leader breaks off color spray to encourage enemy movement, thus drawing fire from Alpha Unit. Bravo Unit reaches flanks, begins firing.

Rounds three, four and five: Alpha and Bravo Units assault simultaneously. Squad leader refocuses (+20 Initiative).

Round six (or earlier if the situation deteriorates): Squad leader uses magic missile on the greatest target of opportunity (priority: wizards -> clerics -> lightly-armed swordsmen [probably rogues] -> any visibly wounded) and sounds the retreat.

Round seven: Bravo Unit escorts the squad leader back to HQ, while Alpha Unit fires into the fog cloud created by the squad leader to deter any pursuers(*).

(*) Only a few humanoids, typically the heavily armed fighter types, will bother pursuing. Even with the miss chance through concealment imposed by fog, an entire squadron shooting at a couple of fighters will hit at least once. This will distract the pursuers long enough to allow the command element to escape.

Er, wouldn't one well-placed sleep spell from the party wizard would screw the kobalds here?

[sys64738]

I also have some reservations; mostly about how reliably kobolds will be able to hit typical party ACs. And yes, PC spells and magic items are probably bad for kobolds. I would definitely have some reservations about hoping to defeat a 7th level party.

Still, though, tactics (esp. well thought out tactics) will always help. Of note, though, is that it's suggested that ambushes add to encounter ECL, and I'd think that the use of especially organized tactics would add again.

PS To add actual OT content, though, I'd suggest the use of bolas and caltrops. The misc. alchemical supplies can be expensive, but the stickybomb item (as I recall) is fairly good.

[Deacon Blues]

Er, wouldn't one well-placed sleep spell from the party wizard would screw the kobalds here?It would screw one team, yes (probably Alpha Unit). Let's hope he doesn't have a second prepared.

To help you visualize:

[.....K......]
[..|......|...]
[..|......V..]
[..|......@.]
[..V...PC..]
[..#..PC...]

@ = alpha unit
# = beta unit
K = kobold squad leader
# = PCs
. = terrain

Still, a good point. In light of that, the kobold sorceror (who's been holding the PCs down with color spray until his minions close ranks) should probably keep a partial action held to let loose magic missile once the wizard starts waving his hands. Adjust his Round Six tactic accordingly.

[drek]

A lone scrawny kobold (with a high bluff skill and nothing else) approaches the PC’s camp, obviously wounded. He claims to have been attacked by his fellow kobolds and is need of healing. In exchange, he’s willing to barter a treasure map leading to a dungeon.

This is a smart kobold, so he has a plausible story for how he obtained the map, etc. Once healed, he makes an excuse and exits (or slips away in the night if the adventurers insist on having ‘im stick around).

(alternately, the kobolds might plant the map on a dumb orc, pay him 20 copper pieces to attack the party.)

Since no adventurer can resist a treasure map, the party checks out the location and finds a circular tunnel, sloping downward into the darkness.

Once all (or most) of the party have entered the cave, three or four kobolds use levers to push a rounded boulder down a nearby hill. (The boulder was hidden by bushes, etc.)

The rock rolls down a pre-cleared path and into the tunnel.

Smooshed party, 3 or 4 CR worth of beasties, no magic required.

Imho, that’s how kobolds “fight.”

[Ghola]

It would screw one team, yes (probably Alpha Unit). Let's hope he doesn't have a second prepared.

To help you visualize:

[.....K......]
[..|......|...]
[..|......V..]
[..|......@.]
[..V...PC..]
[..#..PC...]

@ = alpha unit
# = beta unit
K = kobold squad leader
# = PCs
. = terrain

Still, a good point. In light of that, the kobold sorceror (who's been holding the PCs down with color spray until his minions close ranks) should probably keep a partial action held to let loose magic missile once the wizard starts waving his hands. Adjust his Round Six tactic accordingly.

This scenario could use some more adjustment. Barring some wacky dice results there won't ever be a Round Six.

The kobald sorcerer is probably too far away to hit the wizard with a color spray (30ft range at his level). Wizard will retaliate with sleep on her action; while she may take a hit or two from the crossbows (though I bet she has Mage Armor up) it's likely she'll make the Concentration check and deliver the spell. That will take out the alpha unit. The cleric can defend the stunned fighter - having made the Will save (probably only DC 13 or so). If the fighter is 5th level or higher he recovers next round and Cleaves the kobalds into oblivion. If they are still using crossbows he can charge through them to the leader without AoOs unless they spend actions to drop their bows and draw melee weapons.

You need to arm the kobalds with shortbows or they'll only be able to fire once. Also you need to have them pepper the party's spellcasters from further away and save the color spray until the party closes. Have the sorcerer cast true strike to ensure at least one good hit on the wizard.

[Deacon Blues]

You need to arm the kobalds with shortbows or they'll only be able to fire once. Also you need to have them pepper the party's spellcasters from further away and save the color spray until the party closes. Have the sorcerer cast true strike to ensure at least one good hit on the wizard.I like the way you think. :D

[inscrutable hahn]

Once all (or most) of the party have entered the cave, three or four kobolds use levers to push a rounded boulder down a nearby hill. (The boulder was hidden by bushes, etc.)

The rock rolls down a pre-cleared path and into the tunnel.

Smooshed party, 3 or 4 CR worth of beasties, no magic required.

Imho, that’s how kobolds “fight.”You sir, are a kobold warlord to be feared. Excellent use of limited resources.



Oh, and Ghola... this isn't the "pick apart other peoples' little tactical games" thread. It's the "post your own great tactical ideas" thread. Don't like Deacon's? Post a better one. Don't think it can be done? Quit kibbitzing and slap yer braincap on, mebboy, there's PCs about and they need slaying. Earn your monstrous strategy merit badge before you starts a' spoutin' 'bout whots would and wouldnae work.

Uh, that's intended as a friendly challenge, by the way. :)

[sys64738]

Ideas for the first suggestion:

The area of effect of Color Spray is only a 15' cone under 3.5e, so be very careful using it. It's only going to stun a 5th level PC, though, and that's if they fail the save. Remember, though, that a stunned person drops whatever they're carrying. If the PCs are on a narrow bridge, whoops! Sword's in the water. Lantern's in the water.

Fog Cloud is a 2nd level spell. Obscuring Mist might be what you were thinking of.

Also, a first level sorc only knows 2 1st level spells. Given the above, I'd keep Color Spray and drop Magic Missile. MM will do about 3 pts, and a 5th level mage will have a Conc. check of (I'd guess) +8. The check will be 10+3=13; he'll probably make the check.

As a replacement, Hypnotism would work well (long duration), but it's risky (only affects 2d4 HD). Cause Fear is also a possibility. I'd suggest Ray of Enfeeblement, though. S'great for making strong people not-so-strong, it's a ray so it's easy to hit with, and has NO SAVE.

PS As long as they're shooting arrows, why aren't they using poisoned tips? The mage will have the worst AC and the worst Fort save. Match made in heaven!

PPS If your sorc has 2nd level spells, Scorching Ray rocks and again is a ray and has no save. Blindness/Deafness, also 2nd, can blind a mage and thus render him unable to see to target spells. It has a Fort save, but hey - mages aren't known for Fort saves. It's also Permanent and has Medium range (140 feet at 4th level). Imagine how fun that would be - Blindness spells coming in out of the darkness at the PC camp. After 2-3 round, run away. Next night, repeat. Soon the entire party will be blind.

PPPS Curses, just noticed that Remove Blindness is a 3rd level cleric spell. So, if the party has a cleric, Blindness is reduced to only being really good in a combat situation.

[Pseudoephedrine]

A road. Eleven hobgoblins - ten warriors, one leader.

The leader and five of the warriors sit up the road with longspears behind a barrier that gives them total cover. On either side of them off the edge of the road are concealed pits with spikes in them. The other five are spread out amongst the trees with bows, aiming for spellcasters and archers, and hide their presence until opportune. As the PCs climb over the barrier to charge the hobgoblins, they use their attacks of opportunity and group attacks to focus on a single PC. If possible, they try and bullrush the PCs into the spike pits.

[Futilitarian]

Imho, that’s how kobolds “fight.”

Damn straight. But does it unbalance their CR to make kobolds cunning? I always give them a 2nd level kobold rogue leader with gobs of craft (trapmaking) to explain how lethal my kobolds can get, although when you think about it you really don't need to be too bright, just prepared and utterly devoid of any sense of valor...

"Barbarian hero coming, Veepa! What we do?"

"Relax, Meepo. We just close this door."

"But, Veepa, it huge half-orc! It could kick door down like ... like a half-orc can kick a door down!"

"Exactly, Meepo."

"Me don't understand."

*Sigh* "Meepo, think like a bigjob: 'Oooh, closed door. Dumb kobolds must be cowering behind it. I won't even peek; I'll just kick it in an charge. That'll scare those dumb kobolds and I'll wipe them up with my cleave and attacks of opportunity!'"

"Wow; bigjobs do that?"

"All the time, Meepo. It's their religion, or something."

"Hee hee... Then Meepo will go get a dozen friends. Be right back!"

"Don't forget the barrel full of javelins, Meepo!"

[teucer]

Bah, make your tactically-minded players do all the work.

That's right, make them play bog-standard kobolds, and send a team of tactically-inept mid-to-high-level dungeoneers at them. Requires a big PC group, though, or a bunch of non-uber DMPCs.

[Deacon Blues]

Twelve hobgoblins.

A road that passes between two hills (steep enough to be called "hills," but not too bad).

Six hobgoblins to a side. If the hills are forested, they take cover behind trees; if not, they use tower shields. Each hobgoblin is ten feet apart from either neighbor, so it'd take a spell with a 60' radius to affect all of one side. They don't spring their ambush until the PCs are halfway down their line, however, so the farthest hobgoblins won't have more than 30 feet to fire.

X.....X
.........
X.....X
........
X.....X
...**..
X.**X
.........
X.....X
.........
X.....X

X = hobgoblin
* = PC
. = terrain

As I said, it's a fairly steep hill. Ascending to reach the hobgoblins takes a Climb check. Climbing is slow enough that any threatened hobgoblin should have time to set his javelin for a charge. Plenty of attacks of opportunity; imagine trying to scramble up a steep hill while someone above you is poking a spear. Oh, and the hobgoblins not being threatened will fire at any scrambling PCs.

The hobgoblins stagger their fire: the left side tosses javelins immediately, while the right side holds a partial action in case any PC tries to scramble up a hill or flee. Next round, they alternate.

This is the plain vanilla version of the ambush. Sweeten to taste:
A pit trap fifty feet up the road to catch the PCs if they should flee.
Deadfalls at the base of the hills to catch PCs who try and charge uphill.
A spell to create barriers of some sort, hedging the PCs in. An obscuring mist at the head of the road, for instance. There need not be anything in it, but it'll get the PCs' minds turning. "Why would they throw up a magical mist unless they were concealing a trap of some sort?"
Shortbows instead of javelins to improve range, though this would nix the tower shields.
The middle hobgoblins throw nets or tanglefoot instead of javelins.
The front and rear hobgoblins throw alchemists' fire, again to create barriers.

[Ghola]

Oh, and Ghola... this isn't the "pick apart other peoples' little tactical games" thread. It's the "post your own great tactical ideas" thread. Don't like Deacon's? Post a better one. Don't think it can be done? Quit kibbitzing and slap yer braincap on, mebboy, there's PCs about and they need slaying. Earn your monstrous strategy merit badge before you starts a' spoutin' 'bout whots would and wouldnae work.

Uh, that's intended as a friendly challenge, by the way. :)

Actually I like the basics of Deacon's idea, I just wanted to shore it up some. And though I doubt I can do anything to top Drek's offering I'll give it a shot.

For simplicity's sake I'm assuming a party of 4 "iconic" characters at 5th level: Tordek, Mialee, Jozan and Lidda. Everybody cool with that? It seems that 3rd level magic is designed to kill or bypass large goblinoid groups so I'd like to avoid the possibility.

[Pseudoephedrine]

For a less lethal version of drek's scenario, the kobolds might toss in tanglefoot bombs to trap the party in place. They then demand the party hand over all their valuable gear and money or else they'll roll the boulders down on them.

[Killfalcon]

What level of sourceror/druid/ranger/whatever does a goblinoid need to be to talk to spiders?

'cos there are some damn poisonous bugs that can slip past who ever's on watch, and poison the rest of the party in their sleep...

[inscrutable hahn]

For simplicity's sake I'm assuming a party of 4 "iconic" characters at 5th level: Tordek, Mialee, Jozan and Lidda. Everybody cool with that?Sounds great to me ;). Thanks for taking my comments in the proper, positive context. :)

I'll mix things up here in a bit by posting a kobold assault. That's what modern squad tactics excel at anyways. Ambushes are always a variation on the same theme: surprise, entangle, massacre. And though kobolds are indeed masters of this dark art, I thought I might try them on the offensive for Random Goblin's edification.

[Unseenlibrarian]

At some point, I -will- be sending my Eberron group into a nest of Goblins.

Blues. Because, well, rather than being first level warriors, like most Goblins, Blues are by default, 1st level Psions.

10 1st level psions. To be nasty, I'd likely split these evenly between telepaths and Kineticists, and make the leader a kineticist with his 4th level stat boost in intelligence, thus bumping up the save DCs on all his spells. They're goblins, and small, and thus good at hiding. Volleys of mind thrusts and energy rays, with electricity energy missiles for the party mage, thus hitting him in his reflex save with an even -higher- damage save.

Tactical layout matters little, in this case; preferably a narrow approach to the lair, with high walls looking down on the only path in, so the blues can hide and zap at their leisure.

[Pseudoephedrine]

Another tactic kobolds might use are nets and water.

That is, wait until the party is fording a river, then let kobolds waiting in overhead trees hit them with numerous nets to cause trip attacks. Ideally, the kobolds want to knock them into the current so that they'll be dragged out to deeper water and drowned. If they can't do that, pelting them with slingstones while the adventurers struggle to free themselves and splash out of the river ought to work.

[sys64738]

If you have 'em in the water already, might as well toss in some friendly shocker lizards. And a flesh golem! Oh, wait - that last is out, I guess.

PS (see below) Curses! I thought they were less than that.

[Pseudoephedrine]

Shocker lizards are CR 2, so they're out as well. Unless Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally could be used to whip some up.

[sys64738]

Ok then, how about a pit that leads into a cave below; said cave contains a bunch of hungry stirges. Whoever falls in that pit is quite possibly dead in one round.

PS The stirges are kept purposefully hungry and numerous by whatever humanoids you prefer (3.5 has them appearing in much lower numbers than I recall in previous editions).

[Pseudoephedrine]

Snakes work too, and the creepiness factor is jacked up in that case. Put a large number of tiny vipers in the bottom, and the sheer number of saves will gank most low-level PCs. Spider swarms work well for this too.

[Kurotowa]

I don't really understand the low CR numbers people are throwing around for these encounters. I've never DMed D20, but even I know about the "Modifying XP Awards and Encounter Levels" section on (*looks in up*) page 39 of the 3.5 DMG. It uses the example of hangliders and big rocks, but advanced squad tactics sounds like the same thing. Is this about getting the most out of low CR creatures, or about how to turn low CR creatures into much higher ones?

[teucer]

A man I once spoke to about his experiences serving in the US Marine Corps during the Vietnam War shared the tale of his first firefight, which broke out one night in the jungles of North Vietnam. It was late at night, and his platoon was hearing sounds in the trees. They were jumpy and ready to shoot at anything that moved.

As luck would have it, they did see human shapes in the distance fairly soon and opened fire. Their opponents immediately returned fire, and the firefight wore on for a panic-filled moment before one of this man's companions sensed that something was worng. Sure enough, those familiar American red tracers were shooting back at them. The fighting stopped dead as understanding dawned over both sides.

Turns out a US Army platoon had gotten lost and were out of the area where they were supposed to be.


Now, if your PCs are thick enough to fall for the map-planted-on-attacking-orc trick, think how much more common this sort of chaos would be! If there's a Kobold/Human war waging, imagine how the ability to get your opponents lost could destroy their morale, if nothing else!


By the way, the next morning the Army folks were scattered throughout the jungle and had trouble finding each other again, while the Marines were never separated. Also, while nobody died, the Army suffered a single injury in the incident.

[Sunrunner]

I don't really understand the low CR numbers people are throwing around for these encounters. I've never DMed D20, but even I know about the "Modifying XP Awards and Encounter Levels" section on (*looks in up*) page 39 of the 3.5 DMG. It uses the example of hangliders and big rocks, but advanced squad tactics sounds like the same thing. Is this about getting the most out of low CR creatures, or about how to turn low CR creatures into much higher ones?
There is a difference between the Challenge Rating for a creature and the Challenge Rating for an encounter. As an example, a human warrior is a CR 1/2 creature ... the same CR as these humanoids: Hobgoblin, Locathah, Merfolk, and Orc. A lone human warrior fighting a group of four first-level adventurers is going down hard, same with the above humanoids. A squad of 10+ human warriors? The situation is reversed -- the first-level adventurers are going to fall at their hands; and if they CR 1/2 critters are not in a forgiving mood, the adventurers die as well.

A hobgoblin is as challenging as a human warrior, as is an Orc. Your normal human warrior (say, an infantry soldier (US Army) on its first deployment into live-combat) is a dangerous thing to mess with, especially in groups. Why would Orcs or Hobgoblins be any different? Same CR, same challenge, same XP...

Or I could be totally wrong. But it sounds to me like the majority of DMs take it very very easy on their players. Likely because most of us are not military, and so have no idea how to do this. Which is one of the reasons I am enjoying this thread. It gets me thinking about combat in a tactical manner.

Something the players should do a lot more, and something that all DMs should remain aware of.

[~BA]

Or I could be totally wrong. But it sounds to me like the majority of DMs take it very very easy on their players. Likely because most of us are not military, and so have no idea how to do this.

Strange that.

~BA

[wokuma]

4 kobolds with a gong. Cannon fodder. Slings, spears, shields, and cover. CR 1.

One Kobold sorcerer with sleep and improved initiative hiding behind cover. He/she has already cast mage armor from himself. Has a sling. CR 1. I hope your party has elves...

Second encounter. 4 kobolds with 2 flasks of alchemist fire each, they are wearing scale armor. They use slings and are hiding in a tree house that provide them cover. The rope ladder is up. CR 1. Tactics: throw alchemist fire at cleric. If you miss check for splash. Use slings. If they want their treasure, make them climb 20 feet.

Third encounter. Wolf pack (they trip).

Fourth encounter. 4 foot tall caves. 1 st level kobold rogues. Bigguns not have dex bonus scrunched over... yes?

Then there is a kobold sized crawl tunnel to their main lair...

[Killfalcon]

Strange that.

~BA

To be honest, I'd have thought wargamers would be more dangerous, since their 'experience' is based around turn based combat with primitive weaponary backed up with magic.
As opposed to guns, modern squad tactics, and airstrikes.

As far as I know, most modern tactics assume automatic weapons that can suppress enemy movement and kill people dead, and very good communications.

While grenades can simulate the effects of Fireball, Sleep and Fog... the US marines don't have Summon Monster I, Charm Person or Invisibility. Or Deflect/Snatch Arrows.

[Ratoslov]

CR: Very high. At least 5.
Opposition: A single kobold on a hangglider with as much Alchemist's Fire as possible and nothing to lose. Whatever the equivalent of smoke grenades and flashbangs are welcome too.
Location: While the PCs are on a ship in the middle of the ocean. the kobold crashes into the boat, which A) kills him and B) sets the ship on fire. Since alchemist's fire takes several rounds to put out, this basically means that the ship will sink.

[Wakshaani]

Actually I like the basics of Deacon's idea, I just wanted to shore it up some. And though I doubt I can do anything to top Drek's offering I'll give it a shot.

For simplicity's sake I'm assuming a party of 4 "iconic" characters at 5th level: Tordek, Mialee, Jozan and Lidda. Everybody cool with that? It seems that 3rd level magic is designed to kill or bypass large goblinoid groups so I'd like to avoid the possibility.

Here's an old fave:

Group of 4 Lizardfolk (CR 5? The heck?) are floating in an underground lake, all Croclike. Island in teh lake is teh hero's target. When the adventurer's raft is halfway across, the lizards dive a bit to be safe from ranged attacks (And to hide better), swim up undr the boat (Yay for Darkvision!) and flip it.

*sploosh*

Ignoring the somehow-treading-in-platemail Tordek and the sinking-bye-bye Jozan, two Lizards each go after Mialee and Lidda ... one grapples, the other savages with claws and jaws.

The Lizards split Mialee between two of them (literally) as they swim off, a third gets Lidda, while the last grumpily goes down to wait for either Jozan's Waterbreathing spell to wear off or for an exhausted Tordek to sink.

-- Wak

[Ghola]

I worked on this a bit last night. Every time I came up with an idea, I realized it had come straight from "Tucker's Kobalds." Coming up with truly new things along these lines (without bumping the EL to ridiculous levels) is difficult.

[Shawn Conard]

Hmmm.. reread the rules some, and it looks like 'Kobold wearing amazingly valuable but non-magical item + overly lethal but non-magical CR 25 trap in front of Kobold' would do it. That's a single monster of a fractional CR, no class levels, and 0 gp worth of magic items.

The PCs and the kobold see each other. The Kobold starts trying to talk to them, in a manner that the GM knows will get the PCs to either attack, or else walk up to the kobold. If they attack, the kobold dies. This might involve rushing the kobold, but even if not, they probably walk up to the kobold in order to grab the loot. In any case, the trap probably goes off. CR 25 worth of non-magic trap pretty much amounts to a spiked, poisoned pit trap, where the ceiling sprouts scything blades and then collapses into the pit, which then floods with burning oil.

Except that's not what you had in mind, was it?

~Shawn Conard

[Deacon Blues]

Except that's not what you had in mind, was it?
Ah, right, I forgot the "You Know What I Mean" rule.

[Random Goblin]

Ah, right, I forgot the "You Know What I Mean" rule.

Oh, and traps usually cap at CR 10 anyway.

[Skadedyr]

the last grumpily goes down to wait for either Jozan's Waterbreathing spell to wear offWater Breathing has a verbal component, so you can't cast it under water... Though I've heard of one person creating an Improved Water Breathing spell, with no verbal component, and somatic component: mouth full of water.

[inscrutable hahn]

I don't really understand the low CR numbers people are throwing around for these encounters... Is this about getting the most out of low CR creatures, or about how to turn low CR creatures into much higher ones?Well, personally, I don't pay any attention to CRs (did they even have those in 2nd ed.? I switched to HARP after 3rd and now just use D&D as a template). For me, this whole thread is about getting the most unique species characterization out of my fantasy combat scenarios. Building intelligent monsters who act in tricky ways so that they're not just one dimensional sword swingers- regardless of their size or CR.

One of the big questions that comes up for me in planning these strategies is why are these monsters attacking the PCs in the first place? The answer to this question determines everything. Because without a very good reason, I don't think any group of semi-intelligent humanoids is going to attack a well armored, mage supported group of PCs. That in itself, would be very un-strategic.

Once you've figured out the why, then comes the how.

[Shawn Conard]

Oh, and traps usually cap at CR 10 anyway.

Yeah, I know. I had the DMG open when I was looking for examples of traps. By "25" I really just meant "A disgustingly lethal trap that should TPK a group of high level heroes without much effort".


Except now that I've posted that, I keep thinking about how I'd really do it. Maybe using troglodytes, who are (if I recall correctly) CR 1. 90' darkvision and a huge hide bonus is a nasty combination.

Either that or skirmishers (kobold or goblin) who retreat across a narrow bridge, firing arrows (and maybe the occasional alchemical thing) the whole way. Combine that with some heavy guys who drink their potions of enlarge (if that's a legal potion--I have to check) and bull rush out of the shadows at just the right moment.

Eh... I'll work up some hard numbers when I'm at home and have access to my books, and post whatever seems most effective.

~Shawn Conard

[shockvalue]

Hell, I terrorized my players for several days, game time, with one kobold. It was getting revenge for them having slain all of her packmates, so she just followed the PCs back on the several days it took to get to civilization.

She would hide in the forest - as far away as bow range would allow - and fire arrows into their camp, moving between each shot so they couldn't get a bead on her. As far away as she was, they had no chance of finding her.

Did she kill any of them? No. But dung-covered arrows randomly falling into your camp all night long really started to have an effect on them.

Then, when they got back to the small village that was their staging area, she set fire to a local farmer's barn. When they went to check it out, she snuck into their rooms and stole back as much of the treasure they had taken from her pack as she could carry.

The PCs were pretty sharp and figured it out fast, though. A couple doubled back to check on their stuff and saw the kobold fleeing, and took off after her.

Shame about that 5' high razorwire....

[teucer]

The PCs are attacked by a few kamikaze kobolds which are coming at them from a suspension bridge over a nearby gorge. They chase the kobolds back across the bridge. Most of the kobolds successfully retreat off of it, though some have to keep fighting the PCs to keep them on the bridge.

Then someone cuts the ropes...

[Ghola]

Well, personally, I don't pay any attention to CRs (did they even have those in 2nd ed.? I switched to HARP after 3rd and now just use D&D as a template). For me, this whole thread is about getting the most unique species characterization out of my fantasy combat scenarios. Building intelligent monsters who act in tricky ways so that they're not just one dimensional sword swingers- regardless of their size or CR.

One of the big questions that comes up for me in planning these strategies is why are these monsters attacking the PCs in the first place? The answer to this question determines everything. Because without a very good reason, I don't think any group of semi-intelligent humanoids is going to attack a well armored, mage supported group of PCs. That in itself, would be very un-strategic.

Once you've figured out the why, then comes the how.

I think "self defense" is the usual answer in these cases. I sure as hell wouldn't want a quartet of homicidal "crusaders" coming toward my home. This is probably why traps figure so prominently in goblinoid warrens.

I'm rather fond of the grease spell myself. A lot of mischief potential there. A simple tilting greased floor ending in a deep pit is always nice. Put tanglefoot compound in breaker bottles at the bottom so that whoever falls in will have trouble getting out. Then fire/drop your favorite ammo into the hole.

I had a DM who sent us through a tiny Vietnam once. It was a kobald warren that was grown from a giant, magical briar bush. The corridors were 4' tall (of course), and featured secret doors (of course) but we didn't know the thorns were poisonous to mammals. PCs who weren't wearing significant amounts of armor had to make saving throws against the poison, and those who were armored still had to content with poison dart ambushes.

[Ghola]

Hell, I terrorized my players for several days, game time, with one kobold. It was getting revenge for them having slain all of her packmates, so she just followed the PCs back on the several days it took to get to civilization.

She would hide in the forest - as far away as bow range would allow - and fire arrows into their camp, moving between each shot so they couldn't get a bead on her. As far away as she was, they had no chance of finding her.

Did she kill any of them? No. But dung-covered arrows randomly falling into your camp all night long really started to have an effect on them.

Then, when they got back to the small village that was their staging area, she set fire to a local farmer's barn. When they went to check it out, she snuck into their rooms and stole back as much of the treasure they had taken from her pack as she could carry.

The PCs were pretty sharp and figured it out fast, though. A couple doubled back to check on their stuff and saw the kobold fleeing, and took off after her.

Shame about that 5' high razorwire....

That kicks ass.

[sys64738]

I would have mentioned Grease previously, but it only lasts a round per level. Still, it doesn't take long to slip and fall off of a really, really tall ladder. Or a narrow stone walkway, for that matter.

[Pseudoephedrine]

Why not just use real grease? Surely the Kobolds have access to animal fat.

[cappadocius]

Why not just use real grease? Surely the Kobolds have access to animal fat.

What adventurer in his right mind is going to go running along an obviously greased narrow ledge, or sloping passage, or ladder? But, once you get 'em hustling along in their heavy plate and smooth-soled riding boots, you can cast "Grease", and POW! catch the big, dumb bastard by surprise.

[Pseudoephedrine]

Well, exactly, though. The kobolds can grease a narrow ledge that happens to be the only entrance to their warrens. That ought to discourage pesky adventuring types.

[cappadocius]

Well, exactly, though. The kobolds can grease a narrow ledge that happens to be the only entrance to their warrens. That ought to discourage pesky adventuring types.

But if the adventurers see the grease, and decide to give the warren a miss, how are you going to take their stuff??

[teucer]

But if the adventurers see the grease, and decide to give the warren a miss, how are you going to take their stuff??

Can you rig something mechanical that casts a spell using a wand or something? Because if so, make it so that if anyone steps on the ledge, the ledge Greases itself. The Kobolds know you have to swing over it on the handy-dandy rope, but the pesky adventurers all walk onto the ledge and fall into the pitful of water. Can you swim in that armor?

EDIT: Setting it up takes one Kobold, no mage levels or anything, and one magic item (the wand).

[sys64738]

What CR are rot grubs, assuming they're in 3.5?

PS Although, to be fair, there is a difference between tactics and dirty tricks.

Or is there?

PPS I guess the difference is that, if you use it, it's a tactic. If someone else uses it, it's a dirty trick.

[Pseudoephedrine]

Instead of a wand, why not just have a concealed bucket of grease. As the adventurers navigate the narrow ledge, someone pulls a rope, and the bucket releases, soaking the ledge and the adventurers in grease. Now, not only do they have trouble retaining their footing, but if one of them does fall, the others are going to have a bitch of a time trying to catch them.

[teucer]

Instead of a wand, why not just have a concealed bucket of grease. As the adventurers navigate the narrow ledge, someone pulls a rope, and the bucket releases, soaking the ledge and the adventurers in grease. Now, not only do they have trouble retaining their footing, but if one of them does fall, the others are going to have a bitch of a time trying to catch them.

I still think that it should happen automatically, but you're right - a bucket of grease is easier to come by than a wand.

[DM with a vengeance]

This is one of my favorites. For this one you need 8 Human Warrior 1s and 8 light warhorses. 6 will be set up as archers with longbows, and Mounted Combat + Mounted Archery, while the remaining 2 will be charges with lances and Mounted Combat + Ride by Attack.

The terrain should look something like this, but larger.

<img src=http://server6.uploadit.org/files/zarkology1-Colonnade.JPG>

Mounted Archery is surprisingly effective, because it allows you to make a full attack and begin and end your turn in cover. With six archers all making hit and run attacks from multiple angles, the party will be reduced to using readied actions to shoot back. If one of the archers is wounded, he can easily pull back and get healed or simple fight another day. If the party splits up to try and pursue the archers, the chargers come roaring down the lane and gack the cleric or wizard.

This combo scales fairly well. The archers are much more effective if they have Point Blank Shot + Rapid Shot, and the scenario is much more plausible when everybody is QBed by a wizard with the Message spell. In addition, at higher levels the PCs are much more constrained by their need to use full attacks to large amounts of damage. A group of 3rd level fighters acting this way, with the support of a 5th level wizard and 3rd level cleric could probably take out a 10th level party without too much hassle.

[inscrutable hahn]

Although, to be fair, there is a difference between tactics and dirty tricks.Sure. Tactics are the things that everybody's using. Dirty tricks are the tactics no one's ever seen before. ;)

[Wakshaani]

Water Breathing has a verbal component, so you can't cast it under water... Though I've heard of one person creating an Improved Water Breathing spell, with no verbal component, and somatic component: mouth full of water.

Well, I assumed that any Cleric worth his salt would have cast it on teh group before hopping in the boat.

5th level Fighters and Clerics sink rather nastily while in armor, which just left teh Rogue and Wizard to team up on. Both are easy to grapple and, once grabbed, are lunchmeat.

Not bad for a CR 5 enounter.

-- Wak

[CMD]

The problem with all the nifty scenarios is that unusual tactical scenarios are not covered in game rules, and when they are covered, the tactical advantage is never very much, which makes resolving all the nifty scenarios turn into nothing but GM fiat anyhow.

So I'll take the minimalist approach. 20 kobolds casting through vision slits/bars too narrow to fit arrows through. 1 sorc level each = 40 magic missles=100hp. That's more than enough damage to wipe out the archetypals at 5th.

The nifty scenarios are still cooler than my answer though.

[wokuma]

Attacking high level adventurers is kind like attacking a tank. Therefore anti-tank tactics must be used. Bundle many alchemical fires together and throw or fill up a bigger bottle with the flaming goo... but only in close quarters.

Roll huge boulders. Roll a hundred logs hidden by bushes (total concealment) down the side of a hill onto them. Think lots of damage, quick. Thus 10th+ level characters will now have to fear as well...

Bonus points if you actually cause a landslide or avalanche.

[Intermittently Noble]

So I'll take the minimalist approach. 20 kobolds casting through vision slits/bars too narrow to fit arrows through. 1 sorc level each = 40 magic missles=100hp. That's more than enough damage to wipe out the archetypals at 5th.

It gets worse than that if you buy ten wands of magic missile (1st level) with five charges each.


Seriously, though, the puzzle is easily solved with merfolk. The merfolk leader casts grease on a slope that leads down to their lake and the warriors finish off everyone who makes their save by shooting heavy crossbow bolts and then diving down to reload.


The solution that takes more finesse is the goblin or kobold solution. Let's take goblins. Here's an 'elite gobbie warriors' group.

Gob Leader: 4th level Transmuter (Barred School: Evocation)

Gobbies: three Gobbies with 1 level in rogue, three more with 1 level in cleric/druid

Equipment: 1 Tanglefoot Bag, 1 Alchemist's Fire and 5 Vials of Oil for each rogue, 1 Magic Stones oil for each cleric/druid. (Yeah, they're pretty much hosed at this point) Rogues carry shortbows and a melee weapon, clerics carry sticks and rocks for all we care.

Gob leader casts 'alter self' to be a human and attempts to parlay with the party while the rogues sneak around in the darkness to surround the party. Clerics held in reserve and use the magic stone oil on three stones each. While the gob leader is talking, rogues get within 30 yards of the enemy.

Suddenly, as if signaled by a certain word from the leader during the conversation, two rogues sneak attack the enemy and fall back, while one throws a tanglefoot bag. Leader runs away from the goblin rogues like an innocent bystander, but towards the goblin clerics.

Goblin rogues continue to use guerilla tactics, throwing alchemist's fire at anyone who gets close to them, as the leader summons a swarm of spiders on the entangled adventurers, and the clerics pelt anyone who comes close to him with magic rocks.

If any adventurer starts burning from alchemist's fire, the rogues throw oil on him, and the leader finishes by casting 'ray of enfeeblement' on the fighter, and then summoning another swarm.

Variants on this strategy involve casting 'web' on the party, then summoning a swarm on them, or casting 'grease' on the party and then lobbing alchemist's fire and adding oil thereafter.

Is it a guaranteed TPK? No, but it's pretty close for only having seven goblins. Heck, I'm only really using four of them, the clerics are there to heal guys who get hurt.

[Phantasm]

12 gnolls, all standard from the monster manual except for swapping out Power Attack for Weapon Focus Heavy Mace or club, and 1 gnoll ranger or Druid of 3rd level. The encounter happens in a forest with moderate cover. The gnolls are on either side of the road and wait at least 40ft. so as not to be spotted. All have either heavy maces or clubs, and standard armor and equipment except for a large canvas bag, with a length of rope threaded through it, the rope in total almost 100ft. long, one end coiled at the feet of three gnolls. (think a big dice bag, with a loooooooooong rope) each group has one of these. Also, on either side ONE gnoll has a potion of invisibility, and the gnoll with it is the one that carries the big sack.

The boss signals the PCs are close, close enough that everyone drops down and hides while the two with the sacks drink down their potions. when the PCs walk into the forest, the gnolls with the sacks come out and bag themselves a PC. Not just any PC though, they bag whatever PC isnt wearing armor, or is wearing the lightest armor. Which, ideally means one of them is a magic user. Gnolls bag PCs and become visible, and on that cue, three gnolls on either side of the clearing grab the ropes and yank, dragging two now helpless PCs into either side of the road. The remaining two are left to deal with the gnolls that just appeared in front of them, or follow theyre bagged and being dragged friends.

Bagging gnolls decided to hell with fighting and run for either side of the forest. Making the last two guys choose WHICH of their two captured allies they chase down. Given the nature of this scenario, it doesnt matter, but its REALLY mean to make them choose.

Either way, with three gnolls pulling with all their might, once the bags have reached camp, the gnolls NOT pulling jump on the bags and go to town and turn whoever is inside to PC jelly. If one PC shows up following the bag-gnoll, he gets jumped and overwhelmed. if two PCs show up, they start a fight and wait either for the boss or the group that just killed their other friend.

[neonchameleon]

First: the leader.

4th level Kobold bard. Song of the Heart feat and a first level spell to give +3 morale bonus to attack and damage for all kobolds. Playing the bagpipes to put the party off (and so the Kobolds have no problem at all with move silently). Kobold light crossbows are now going to *hurt* and probably to hit. (Don't care about the rest because you're unlikely to get near the little bugger).

Second: the location.

Kobold tunnels. Designed to fit a Kobold - anyone who isn't small needs to crawl in places (and even other small creatures are feeling cramped). Kobolds with light crossbows dart around faster than the PCs (other than the mage with shrink self and expeditious retreat...). The Kobolds have, of course, rigged minor traps in their warrens (anything from small pits to tripwires to things being poured from above) but know where they are - so these aren't too much of a problem for them.

Third: the trap.

Rocks fall (aimed at and slightly behind the PCs) trapping the PCs (and possibly hitting a few). If the PCs try to move the rocks, they are silhouetted in the Kobold's shooting gallery. The best way for the PCs is therefore forward.

PC counters: Gnome rangers, animal companions, and reduce self/expeditious retreat/invisibility/haste/protection from arrows from the mage.

[wokuma]

Ten L-1 Hobgoblin monks. They take the improved grapple feat. Before they go into combat they drink a Str potion. They grapple.

Groun' and poun' everybody.

[Mr Adventurer]

Almost contrary to the intent, but something I've had a lot of fun with:

Kobold Monk 1s make terrible combatants. Small size and a -4 Str penalty means around 1 or 2 points of damage per hit, but they almost never hit thanks to low Str (and constant Flurry of Blows-ing, see below).

Small size, a Dex bonus, and some natural armour makes their AC equivalent to a heavily armoured mook, but they only have about 7hp each.

Basically, by surrounding the low-level PCs and having the kobold monks flurry constantly, you create a sense of pressure without actually endangering the party all that much. Because the kobolds are so weak you can use more than their CR indicates, too.

Plus, by using kobold monks you can insert the Ninja Dragon Schools into your campaign...

[Noon]

This is impressive?

Work with the resources a player has to work with - being constantly on unexplored enemy territory, gathering resources only from opponents actually slain, gain skill not from thin air but having to actually beat live opponents.

If you can't win in the same way as the players would do, there's no point doing all that - no ones going to cheer you because you've changed the base lines of engagement so much your winning some other game against them (think of comedy sketches where someone takes all his opponents chess pieces by checking them, like he's playing checkers).

D&D doesn't actually facilitate playing the same as the players, of course. But because D&D tries to be like that doesn't mean it actually make sense in terms of human dynamics - what chess player would congratulate someone for 'checking' all of their pieces, for example?

[Throthvile]

I have found that the book of nine swords makes 1st level human anything (warrior, commoner, expert, aristocrat or adept) into awesomeness. Just get them the two feats for a manuever and a stance, mix and match and enjoy. There's all sorts of fun combos to play around with.

I posted one of my creations in another thread, but here's the gist. A human commoner (representing a cultist) with Steely Srtike:1/enc (+4 to hit, -4 ac), and Punishing Stance: swift action activates (+d6 damage, -2 ac). So now you have suicidal knife weilding commoners who can actually hit something and do ok damage when they connect. Of course having 2 hp and 10 ac (or 4 ac if using the stance and blowing the strike as well) is a good way to end up dead. Throw hordes of these guys at your players and they'll learn some respect for commoners.

[Fenris]

Hmm...do these HAVE to be humanoids, or can i make something having to do with my leader(lv. 4 hobgoblin druid) and a whole crapload of housecats? :D

These are very cool ideas though. Ive terrorized many a group with well placed goblins. It's tried and used before, but it works. Shortbows hurt. 1d6 a shot, with a x3 crit, and hidden, smart goblins spacing out and taking advantage of aiming with a high Dex, those PCs were getting hit alot more often than you'd think.

[Mr Adventurer]

Goblin shortbows deal 1d4 damage.

[Fenris]

Goblin shortbows deal 1d4 damage.

whoops, was thinking of pre 3.5, when Goblins used human shortbows like longbows. My bad. :)

[DMH]

Could a few kobolds/goblins bullrush a human at the same time? Dragging the humans under water or over a cliff may mean humanoid deaths, but they have the population to throw away warriors like that.

[Noon]

Can I just suggest, to show how clever these designs are, that they go up against a foe with the same background resources.

Ie, start pitting one kobold clan from one post against someone elses kobold clan from another post. Start intermeshing them, see how that goes and who actually wins.