(More Comics) Marvel Martial Artists: Who hits the bell?

[PhishStyx]

Yes, I'm copy-catting on A2K's DC thread :) , but I kinda felt like Marvel oughtn't be left out of the game.

Anyway, who's the top of the top tier folks?

How do Cap and Wolverine compare with Zhang Chi?

So on and so forth. . .

:cool:

[RobertEdwards]

Shang Chi used to be tops, and I think he still is. The Champion might be better.

Followed by Iron Fist, The Cat, and Electra. Maybe Taskmaster. Maybe Mantis.

Next tier down is Captain America and Daredevil. EDIT: And Black Panther.

Next Tier down is a whole bunch of people: Batroc, Black Widow, Zaran, Leiko Wu, Moon Knight.

A lot of these folks have superpowers, which makes it kind of tough to judge actual skill. Spidey is probably pretty darn good, but he's so fast and strong, how could anyone tell? Same with Thor, Herc, Valkyrie, etc.

[The Scribbler]

Yes, I'm copy-catting on A2K's DC thread :) , but I kinda felt like Marvel oughtn't be left out of the game.

Anyway, who's the top of the top tier folks?

How do Cap and Wolverine compare with Zhang Chi?

So on and so forth. . .

:cool:

I think Zhang Chi wins any straight-up fight.

Damn...

This is harder than the DC one, for some reason.

Uhh... ok, I'll cop out and say "pure skill" again and count Cap just because...

Zhang Chi
Danny Rand
Elektra
Daredevil
Captain America
Black Widow
Black Panther
Moon Knight
Wolverine (he relies on healing and the claws alot, and I think it's rusted his skill)

I'm sure I'm missing some people. Hrmm.

Oh, and, despite her training with Danny during her Malice time, I won't be listing Invisible Woman anywhere near the top. She's a fighter, a decent one, but I don't think she's on "The List" any more than anyone else who gets a black belt in the MU.

[RobertEdwards]

You know, it occurs to me Marvel has it all over DC when it comes to the Weapon Master types: Blacklash, The Swordsman, Zaran, Stick, and like that. An entire gang of jugglers. DC has Katanna.

But DC has more Archers. Green Arrow 1 and 2, Merlyn, Arsenel, Miss Arrowette and Arrowette. Even Huntress. Marvel has Hawkeye and that mystic alien guy from the Guardians of the Galaxy.

[The Scribbler]

Marvel has Hawkeye and that mystic alien guy from the Guardians of the Galaxy.

Although, to be fair, the blue guy could <i><b>whistle at his arrows to make them change direction</b></i>.

Normally I'd say that makes him worse, not better, as that could be goofy... but they played him pretty hard-core as a fighter and warrior. :)

[VoiceOfIsaac]

Although, to be fair, the blue guy could <i><b>whistle at his arrows to make them change direction</b></i>.

Normally I'd say that makes him worse, not better, as that could be goofy... but they played him pretty hard-core as a fighter and warrior. :)


Unfortunately, they decided to chop off his hand a few issues into the last run of the Guardians of the Galaxy comic, whereupon he got all depressed, put away the bow, and got a swiss-army multi-weapon cyber-stump instead.

- it had a blaster on it, but that made him feel sad - Isaac

[The Scribbler]

Unfortunately, they decided to chop off his hand a few issues into the last run of the Guardians of the Galaxy comic, whereupon he got all depressed, put away the bow, and got a swiss-army multi-weapon cyber-stump instead.

- it had a blaster on it, but that made him feel sad - Isaac

That sucks.

I stopped reading around the time of the mega-powerful child, and actually lost track a few times before then.

[Matt H]

It can't believe they did that to Yondu. Actually, yes I can.


Anyhow, to answer the original quetion:

KARNAK!!

[The Scribbler]

Anyhow, to answer the original quetion:

KARNAK!!

Ooh, good call. In a fight? He'd win. By my list's standards?

... I'd put Zhang Chi above him.

Wait!

Because he uses his power to get the edge on where to hit, not training.

Or, anyway, that's my read on it. He likely is right up there.

He'd be #2, if not #1.

[jrients]

Thor has Unearthly fighting, beating out all mortals mentioned in this thread. So there. :p

[Q99]

Shang Chi used to be tops, and I think he still is. The Champion might be better.

Followed by Iron Fist, The Cat, and Electra. Maybe Taskmaster. Maybe Mantis.

Next tier down is Captain America and Daredevil. EDIT: And Black Panther.



And don't forget Stick, the guy who trains Daredevil. High-end second tier?

[Q99]

You know, it occurs to me Marvel has it all over DC when it comes to the Weapon Master types: Blacklash, The Swordsman, Zaran, Stick, and like that. An entire gang of jugglers. DC has Katanna.

Although don't forget a lot of the DC martial artists use weapons as well. Nightwing uses stickfighting all the time, and Robin's all about the staff. Deathstroke uses the sword. And all the archers regularly use arrows and sometimes the bow in melee combat.


And there's a lot of minor villains who do (like most of Nightwing's rogues. Knives, swords, etc.). I think the focus on the higher levels make people generalize more in the DCU (how can someone be 'the best' if they're limited to one weapon...?).

[The Scribbler]

And don't forget Stick, the guy who trains Daredevil. High-end second tier?

I thought he was dead?

[Q99]

I thought he was dead?


Well, yea, I think so, but that doesn't mean we still can't count him.

[The Scribbler]

Well, yea, I think so, but that doesn't mean we still can't count him.

Ah... it's why I left him out. :)

[PhishStyx]

I thought he was dead?

Apparently, he got reincarnated as a little girl. I don't understand comic books sometimes.

[Q99]

Ah... it's why I left him out. :)


In Marvel, I don't think it counts anyway.

As Phishstyx has shown. Thanks for reminding me of that btw, Phish.

[SteveVo8a]

Taskmaster wins.

[Dr. Doom III]

Champion of the Universe is the #1.

For the normal humans Captain America is #1

[The Scribbler]

Taskmaster wins.

I forgot about him, too.

Huh.

In a "who'd win" list I'd put him rather low... but as far as technical skill goes? Wow... he is, by virtue of his powers, fairly high up there.

[Dr. Doom III]

Thor has Unearthly fighting, beating out all mortals mentioned in this thread. So there. :p

The Hulk can kick his ass.

[Lord Liaden]

As far as non-super true humans go, I'd rank Mantis at the top of the Marvel skills list. Her tutors, the Priests of Pama, were masters of Kree martial arts refined over hundreds of thousands of years. In her audition for Avengers membership she hit Thor on a pressure point with enough force to put him down, and Captain America couldn't escape her "mantis grip" before she sent him to la-la land.

Among the ranks of superhumans, the Champion of the Universe should be the pinnacle of martial artists (when he's written properly). He's focussed his cosmic power into boosting his strength and speed to incredible levels, and has devoted eons to learning every martial style in the universe. And he did best Mantis hand-to-hand.

[Jian]

Basically, I think things go by established character coolness as much as anything (so in DC, I'd put Bats/Shiva/Dragon above Karate Kid, even if he can punch through force fields).

So my list:

Captain America and Shang-Chi tie for top. Shang-Chi is the better, purer martial artist but Cap has the edge in experience and resourcefulness.

Second-tier: Daredevil, Elektra, Taskmaster tie here. While Taskmaster can copy anyone he likes (including Shang-Chi, I'd imagine), he lacks the experience with the styles to utilise them to their full potential (though he's got a fairly potent mixed style of his own). Some occasional characters like Master Stone and Karnak can also be here as well if they feel the need.

Third-tier: Iron Fist, Cat, the Champion, Black Widow, Mantis.

Fourth-tier: Really the also-rans. Wolverine(and any 90s X-lamers such as Gambit, Cable, Deadpool), Nick Fury, the Punisher, and whoever else is hot this week can go here.

Near the bottom: Thor, Hercules. Did anyone really believe that malarkey in MSH about them having Unearthly Fighting just 'cos they're 40th level fighters?

[Son of Kirk]

Taskmaster wins.

What? Deadpool is always kicking that guy's ass!

[Geoffrey21]

Galactus is number one, man. His Eat Your Damn Planet Flying Tiger Strike is the ultimate move.

[Rhino]

Third-tier: Iron Fist, Cat, the Champion, Black Widow, Mantis.



Mantis is one of the greatest martial artists in the universe.

People no one seems to have mentioned yet: Moondragon, Dr. Druid, and (much to my surprise) Psylocke.

Comic book martial arts fights aren't about who is cooler (unless they're being written by bad writers). The general rule of thumb is, or at least should be, that any character whose primary schtick is being a great martial artist can, usually, defeat anyone whose primary schtick is something else. The exception to this rule is that the outcome should be whichever one makes for the better story.

Captain America, Wolverine, Black Widow and the Punisher are highly skilled hand to hand combatants. But that's not their primary schticks. Which is why, barring story concerns, they'd lose against people like the Master of Kung Fu, Iron Fist and Mantis.

This same rule applies to almost any superhero dick-measuring contest. Thor and the Juggernaut are insanely strong, but the Hulk is "the strongest one there is" because that's (literally) his primary schtick. (Cosmic entities like Galactus don't really count here, as they're more like forces of nature than characters; it's like asking which is stronger, Hulk or an earthquake.)

[SteveVo8a]

...any 90s X-lamers such as... Deadpool...

Maybe he was lame when Liefeld first "created" him, but Wade is a lot different now. He doesn't deserve to be lumped in with those other guys. When it comes to pure close fighting skill, he's a lot better than Cable, too, I think. Cable's more a psi and guns guy. For that matter, DP just recently beat out Cat, though it was close. Wasn't entirely martial arts, either.


What? Deadpool is always kicking that guy's ass!

Honestly, I don't remember if they actually came to blows after issue 2 of Deadpool, or if they just simmered with anger for a while. But at any rate, that's Taskmaster's weakness, it seems, people random enough that he can't "read" them. He can still hold his own, though.

Personally, I think he's up there at or near the top, barring the insanely powerfuls, of course. Assuming he's seen them fight before or can survive long enough to see them fight, he can pretty much know his opponent's style. Now, if he was pressed into a fight with a great martial artist who he'd never seen and could take him in one or two blows, then I could see him losing. Other than that, though, a good part of his schtick is "I can take your style and turn it back against you just by seeing it." Heck, he can even mimic superhuman athletics like those of Spider-Man to the extent that a regular human can.

[reedins]

Captain America, Wolverine, Black Widow and the Punisher are highly skilled hand to hand combatants. But that's not their primary schticks. Which is why, barring story concerns, they'd lose against people like the Master of Kung Fu, Iron Fist and Mantis.

I have to disagree with you about Cap. He is, at his core, a martial artist. He also carries a shield, but he is the top hand to hand fighter on Marvel Earth. I believe that this is because Stan "The Man" Lee is a humanist who believes that heart and spirit are the most important qualities of any hero, and Cap has more heart and spirit in his pinky than Shang Chi or Mantis ever will. Mantis or Shang Chi might win a battle against Cap, but they would never win the war.

As for Thor and Hercules, they should indeed be top ranked. This is for several reasons, the most obvious of which is that they are freaking immortal and have been at it for thousands and thousands of years. Now, Thor is primarily a warrior, and normally fights with his hammer, a sword, or a bow (yes, a bow). If you are going to include people like The Swordsman and Zaran the Weaponsmaster, then Thor has to be included as his weapon skill should dwarf either of those worthies. Hercules, on the other hand, is and always has been a wrestler. He wrestles, that's what he does. It's all he does (although they make a show of him carrying his golden mace, he almost never uses it). He's been doing it for thousands of years and he should be better at it than any other person in the Marvel Universe except possibly The Champion.

I think a lot of it goes back to the Silver Age Marvel philosophy that every character was literally the best at what they did. The Hulk? The strongest man. Quicksilver? The fastet man. Iron Man/Tony Stark? The greatest engineer ever. Reed Richards? The greatest scientist ever. Thor/Donald Blake? The greatest doctor ever. The Swordsman? Hawkeye? The list goes on and on. If Stan Lee created a character (or re-invented a character as in the case of Captain America), then that character is (or at least was) the best at what they did. And Captain America was the best hand to hand combatant.

This didn't become muddied until the 80's, when revision mania swept through comics.

Cap is still number one.

[Jian]

[QUOTE=reedins]I have to disagree with you about Cap. He is, at his core, a martial artist. He also carries a shield, but he is the top hand to hand fighter on Marvel Earth. I believe that this is because Stan "The Man" Lee is a humanist who believes that heart and spirit are the most important qualities of any hero, and Cap has more heart and spirit in his pinky than Shang Chi or Mantis ever will. Mantis or Shang Chi might win a battle against Cap, but they would never win the war.

As for Thor and Hercules, they should indeed be top ranked. This is for several reasons, the most obvious of which is that they are freaking immortal and have been at it for thousands and thousands of years. Now, Thor is primarily a warrior, and normally fights with his hammer, a sword, or a bow (yes, a bow). If you are going to include people like The Swordsman and Zaran the Weaponsmaster, then Thor has to be included as his weapon skill should dwarf either of those worthies. Hercules, on the other hand, is and always has been a wrestler. He wrestles, that's what he does. It's all he does (although they make a show of him carrying his golden mace, he almost never uses it).
QUOTE]

I totally agree with you about Cap. Also, it's a basic rule of thumb that a new character is always more badass in his or her intro: I mean, frigging Whirlwind beat all the Avengers in his first issue, and he's been pretty second-string ever since. Mantis may have paralyzed Cap in her audition, but since then she's never been that great. God only knows what marriage to Treebeard has done to her. Hell, I reckon Mockingbird could take her now, and Mockingbird is dead.

Iron Fist is also an also-ran; he's good, real good, but his lack of focus* and his relative lack of experience makes him a poor bet against, say, Daredevil. And Cap would just shake his head.

*Yes, he may be able to focus his Chi to make his fist a thing of iron, but he's pretty screwed up.

About Thor and Herc, though... yeah, I like the characters. Mythic appeal. However, they're very distant from their mythological versions (Thor is more personable and intelligent, and Herc is less so). In the actual comics, while Thor is pretty mean with that hammer, he's never come close to hitting a really skilful opponent (apart from the Champion, maybe) with it. Same with Herc - he cou;dn't lay a hand on Spider-Man, let alone Captain America. Hence, they're not much cop in martial arts. I do remember one neat issue where Thor (in his "broken-bones-armoured" stage) beat up a dozen giants at once by smacking paving-stones into them off his hammer, while describing how millennia of experience made him a totally badass fighter, but frankly it was a one-off and I think he was just stunting.

[FatherDog]

However, they're very distant from their mythological versions (Thor is more personable and intelligent, and Herc is less so).

Uh... maybe less so than the Hercules in "Legendary Journeys". In the original Labors myths, Herakles is an ill-tempered thug, and not a particularly clever one. He's good at fighting and not much else.

[soylent]

I think that's what Jian meant: The Thor of myth is more personable and intelligent than Marvel Thor, and the Heracles of myth less so than Marvel Herc.

[Jason Hinds]

Captain America is the best in a knock-down, drag-out fistfight.

He fought Batroc and The Tumbler, after all. :D

Seriously, though, he's supposed to be the best in the MU. His style isn't pretty, since it's a combination of judo and boxing. His experience combined with that Super-Soldier serum and his raw fighting ability make him tough to pin down in a fight. You have to pretty much drop a building on him (See Captain America #32) to stop him. Even then he doesn't stop for long.

Without his ability to draw on his experience, others like Shang-Chi, Karnak, and Mantis would be able to beat him more often than not.

[Wakshaani]

Cap is sooo borderline super-powers that it's hard to say if he should be red-flagged or not.

That said, his fighting *spirit* and shield are bigger things than his raw fighting skill. He gets beaten, but doesn't give up, then 'Finds a way to win'. He's like Batman in that regard... maybe not the be-all end-all of skill, but, by golly, he's still gonna win.

Still, I should make an effort here, so:

#1 -- Mantis. Teh Karate Kid of Marvel, she's put down Thor for goodness sakes. Mantis is Teh Uber, as it were. Even if she later married a tree.

#2 -- Shang-Chi. A bit weird since he's a virtual nobody these days, but, well, he's a 70's Kung Fu guy, and we all know that nothing's as powerful as 70's Kung Fu. (Chop to neck!)

#3 -- Captain America. He's borderline superhuman and I'm *really* tempted to flag him off the list, but, he's Teh Guy.

SECOND TIER

#4 -- Iron Fist. He should be higher but Danny Rand sorta drifted. If he fully applied himself and such, he'd be higher, but, he seems to have slacked off. He probably deserves to be lower than THIS, really, but, I'm putting him here just 'cause.

#5 -- Black Panther. He's Marvel's Batman these days but, again, he's borderline superhuman, so, maybe he doesn't deserve to be here. Hrm.

#6 -- Batroc teh Leaper. No, I'm not joking. Batroc's played for a joke, but, he's actually quite badass in his own Frenchly way. Can give Cap a run for his money and, when shieldless, can take him down. Zoot alores!

#7 -- Elektra. She's a Ninja. That's sorta her bad, baby. :)

THIRD TIER

#8 -- Daredevil. He's not as good as Elektra, but, he's really, really good. Again, he's got powers, but I can allow this since they're not all that ... he's no stronger or faster or whatnot, they just let him 'see' as good as someone who had wworking eyes. I rule this fair play. :)

#9 -- the Black Widow. She didn't start off as such, but all the years with Hawkeye, Daredevil, and Cap have gotten her much, much more deadly.

#10 -- Fancy Dan. Honest! He's a *seriously* dangerous guy who can, and has, put down Spidey with a single punch ... and can *land* blows against Spidey at that. Horribly, horribly underestimated fellow.

There's scads of people that are straining to get to third tier, mind you. Hawkeye comes to mind, Punisher, Moon Kinght, heck, even Mockingbird. Lots n lots in Mervel, but not as well defined as the DC counterparts.

I had to flag a couple, tho. Wolverine, Sabretooth, and Deadpool are all fighters who rely on raw attack mostly due to their regeneration getting them past incoming shots. Sabretooth's strength level is also superhuman. Karnak suffers teh same problems (He can lift a couple of tons), while Captain America, Black Panther, and Daredevil were all *really* close to being ruled unfair competition.

I think Marvel could use some standardization sometime. I'd love to see a great tourney thing where some of the big guns got to square off. That could be tres keen.

If only to see Fancy Dan put Bullseye down. :)

-- Wak, also eliminated Stick, who is dead/a baby and, thus, not much for fighting just now.

[GestaltBennie]

In terms of combining superhuman powera with superhuman levels of combat skill, Karnak followed by Mantis.

In terms of raw ability, Shang Chi followed by Danny Rand.

And Cap ranks just below them.

Bonus points to Wak for remembering Fancy Dan. Even more points for bringing up Batroc.

[Wakshaani]

In terms of combining superhuman powera with superhuman levels of combat skill, Karnak followed by Mantis.

In terms of raw ability, Shang Chi followed by Danny Rand.

And Cap ranks just below them.

Bonus points to Wak for remembering Fancy Dan. Even more points for bringing up Batroc.

Danke. :)

I had an old storyline where I wanted to do up Spider-Girl (Just aboutthe time that they started the current Spider-Girl run, actually) where she gets to meet the New Enforcers and the new Big Man.

The New Enforcers were led by Eric "The Eel" Marston, a slimey sleazebag type that just oooozed charisma. Had a mustache, because, well, he HAS to have a mustache. He was smart enough and interested in getting ahead, but not so much of either to be a threat to teh Big Man. He was a lieutenant and that's all he'd ever be, but, it kept him in hot broads and cold cash, so, he was happy enough. He had "Fancy Danielle' on his arm ... She being a typical 'Gangster Mol;' but was also Dan's daughter, so had Mad Kung Fu Skillz when needed. She just would rather look pretty and get flashy diamonds than get punched. :) The Ox Brothers were there for muscles (Oxen always come in pairs, donchaknow), Montana was a stripper who decided that she could make more money hooking up with teh group ... she also used pistols and a rifle on top of teh usual rope tricks.

The Big Man was going to wind up being Fancy Dan. I thought he'd be perfect for teh old Freddie Foswell role, complete with never being seen by the rest of the Enforcers, just heard over an intercom or whatever. Danielle'd know, natch, but she never told the rest, being much smarter than teh bubbly blonde that they assumed.

Sadly, I'll never get to do 'em, now, but, by golly, it would have been fun.

-- Wak

[FatherDog]

I think that's what Jian meant: The Thor of myth is more personable and intelligent than Marvel Thor, and the Heracles of myth less so than Marvel Herc.

In that case, he's still wrong. The Thor of myth was a belligerent drunk who had a hard time outsmarting his goats.

[Q99]

#2 -- Shang-Chi. A bit weird since he's a virtual nobody these days, but, well, he's a 70's Kung Fu guy, and we all know that nothing's as powerful as 70's Kung Fu. (Chop to neck!)


Well, he did get his own miniseries recently.

[Coyraven]

He's good at fighting and not much else.

I don't agree. I think the cleaning of the Augean stables and attaining the golden apples were both pretty cleverly handled.

CR

[Coyraven]

THIRD TIER

That is a pretty good list- I would throw Silver Sable among this level.. maybe among the second tier if Elektra stays in there.

I'd love to see a great tourney thing where some of the big guns got to square off. That could be tres keen.

Ugh, I can imagine how that would turn out. Just give the trophy to Wolverine and be done with it. ;)

CR

[Wakshaani]

Well, there'd be a judge of some sort.

"Sorry, you can't go in."

"What?! Bub, you got smoething against mutants?" *snikt!*

"No, not at all. However, teh rules clearly state that no powers may be used. Can you turn your ... *flipflipflip* 'Healing Factor' off?"

"Uh... no?"

"Wait at the bar, wait at the bar..."

-- Wak

[cappadocius]

The Thor of myth was a belligerent drunk who had a hard time outsmarting his goats.

In all fairness, they were really smart goats. And you have to give the Thor of myth credit for not flying into murderous, drunken rages like Herakles.

[Mikko Kauppinen]

Why is Elektra ranked so high? I mean, Bullseye killed her, and Daredevil is able to take him down pretty consistently.

Unless you're speaking of some silly resurrected Elektra, of which I know nothing about. :) Now, Elektra Assassin on the other hand...

[PatP]

A couple of you guys have mentioned someone named 'Cat'. Is that the guy who first appeared in the old Gulacy-drawn Shang-Chi series way back when? The guy I'm thinking of was a non-supersuit guy whose appearance was based on Bruce Lee. IIRC he had a cat tattoo. I also kinda thought of him as being Shang-Chi's better by just a smidgen.

Man, that was a loooooooong time ago.

[FatherDog]

I don't agree. I think the cleaning of the Augean stables and attaining the golden apples were both pretty cleverly handled.

CR

In the cleaning of the stables, he didn't come up with it on his own; Athena told him what to do. In the case of the apples, Prometheus told him ahead of time how to deal with Atlas. The only cunning plan Hercules comes up with on his own is strangling the Nemean lion to death after he can't get any of his weapons to harm it, and even then he needs Athena's help to figure out how to skin it.

[Jason Hinds]

What... is there no love for The Tumbler, the first man to defeat the Adaptoid? Or the General, the man who combined all of the worst Asian stereotypes in one? (Come on, he was a general of the North Vietnamese Army who trained in sumo and tried speaking like a Chinese bureaucrat. Not one of Jack & Stan's best creations.)

Where's the love?

[Q99]

Well, there'd be a judge of some sort.

"Sorry, you can't go in."

"What?! Bub, you got smoething against mutants?" *snikt!*

"No, not at all. However, teh rules clearly state that no powers may be used. Can you turn your ... *flipflipflip* 'Healing Factor' off?"



The healing factor's a fairly non-issue with many of these Martial Artists. Nerve-strikes and instant KOs. And maybe they could tune it down a bit... (Ooh, and they could make sure the Stereo's playing loudly whenever Daredevil's fighting to put his senses on a level with everyone else's!)

"Now, the skeleton thing. Can you turn that off..."

"I still think you're just making up excuses to keep me from kicking some ass, bub."

"Alright, alright, we can work this out. MAGNETO!"

"Right, I'll be at the bar!"

[reedins]

There is too much Mantis love on this thread. She took down Thor one time, and it was a sucker punch. She did a sum total of bupkiss for the rest of her time with the Avengers. Then she married a tree. Then she came back for Force Works, and again did bupkiss. She's a lame character who talks about how good she is in a fight, but hasn't ever faced serious competition that I've seen. I'm leaving that open to the possibility that she has and I didn't see it. Moondragon is a much more impressive fighter; she could fight and not have her tits pop out of that green outfit. Mantis couldn't have done that.

Iron Fist and Shang Chi have appeared together a couple of times; first in a Giant Sized Annual and later in Heroes for Hire. Each time they were presented as 100% equals with differing kung fu styles. The edge then goes to Iron Fist for, um, the Iron Fist.

[Ghola]

"Now, the skeleton thing. Can you turn that off..."

"I still think you're just making up excuses to keep me from kicking some ass, bub."

"Alright, alright, we can work this out. MAGNETO!"

"Right, I'll be at the bar!"

:D

[reedins]

The guy I'm thinking of was a non-supersuit guy whose appearance was based on Bruce Lee.

This describes every male character from Asia Marvel had in the 70's.

[Mantisking]

A couple of you guys have mentioned someone named 'Cat'. Is that the guy who first appeared in the old Gulacy-drawn Shang-Chi series way back when? The guy I'm thinking of was a non-supersuit guy whose appearance was based on Bruce Lee. IIRC he had a cat tattoo. I also kinda thought of him as being Shang-Chi's better by just a smidgen.

Man, that was a loooooooong time ago.Yeah, that would be him. He appeared recently* in Heroes for Hire and Spiderman.

*Recently meaning a couple of years ago.

[Mantisking]

SECOND TIER
#4 -- Iron Fist. He should be higher but Danny Rand sorta drifted. If he fully applied himself and such, he'd be higher, but, he seems to have slacked off. He probably deserves to be lower than THIS, really, but, I'm putting him here just 'cause.Danny hasn't drifted, the writers just don't understand him. Which is sooooooo wrong.

-- Wak, also eliminated Stick, who is dead/a baby and, thus, not much for fighting just now.What about the rest of the Chaste?

[alexandria2000]

Personally, I want to see Cap and Black Panther go at it. Just because.

Sorry, I got too much love for the Panther after his first TPB. Boyo can go.

And the Dora Milaje? HOTNESS WITH KICK-ASS HIGH HEEL ACTION.

[Wakshaani]

Adn now we're dragging A2K down into our fanboy world.

I ... I feel unclean.

-- Wak, snickering at the Magneto bit, tho.

[reedins]

Personally, I want to see Cap and Black Panther go at it. Just because.


Are you suggesting a fight or a "fight"?

SLASH FIC!!!!!!!!

[JdRavnos]

Black Panther would win in a fight with Cap, but like Batman, only cause he would cheat. In a straight fight Cap is probably the more skilled fighter, and their strength level aproximatly equal.

[SteveVo8a]

Yeah, that would be him. He appeared recently* in Heroes for Hire and Spiderman.

*Recently meaning a couple of years ago.

Also, last month in Cable/Deadpool #7.

[Phantom Stranger]

Colleen Wing?

[Jian]

I think that's what Jian meant: The Thor of myth is more personable and intelligent than Marvel Thor, and the Heracles of myth less so than Marvel Herc.

No, I meant the other way around.

Though having thought about it, I guess in myth they're both ill-tempered thugs. I do think mythical Herc is a little cleverer, since being tricked is not a day-to-day event for him. Also, he's got a lot of angst (from being mind-controlled into killing his whole family) going on.

Herc should have a club. And an impenetrable lionskin. Oh, and a bow with poisoned arrows. Where that bloody mace came from I have NO idea.

[Jian]

Black Panther would win in a fight with Cap, but like Batman, only cause he would cheat. In a straight fight Cap is probably the more skilled fighter, and their strength level aproximatly equal.

Where does this whole "Black Panther is a badass martial artist with Amazing Fighting" thing come from? In all his appearances, he's never made that impression on me. I don't think he's ever beaten real opposition, like Cap, Iron Fist, Daredevil, Shang-Chi, or even Mantis.

Kurt Busiek clearly agrees with me, since he showed him getting a hard time from Blue Beetle. Christ, he's just about going toe-to-toe with a pleasant goofy admittedly-more-competent-than-advertised second-string techno-hero with a heart condition.

I naturally do not count Priest's run on BP: while CP did make T'challa a whole lot cooler in his generalised "he's black so he's badass" agenda, T'challa was a lot more competent there than he has ever been outside his own comic, in a reverse-Batman effect*. Essentially, what you get up to in your own comic is like PC pre-play background - no doubt it all happened if you say it did, but it's what happens in play that counts and defines you among your peers.

*Batman is always much LESS competent in his own books, for some reason.

[Jian]

Danny hasn't drifted, the writers just don't understand him. Which is sooooooo wrong.

What about the rest of the Chaste?


Danny is cool, but he needs to modernise. And he's screwed up (in the British sense of "having emotional issues"). I thought whoever wrote that Heroes for Hire series in the wake of Onslaught did really, really well with him - I actually thought he was cool for once.

Otherwise, Bendis has summed him up nicely in his Daredevil stuff: he's Cage's honky straight man and a butt (ha ha) for Fist jokes.

[Coyraven]

T'challa was a lot more competent there than he has ever been outside his own comic, in a reverse-Batman effect*.

Not really- when BP first appeared, he was a pretty tought cookie. It was only over the years that he developed a glass jaw. I think he picked it from U.S. Agent.

CR

[Coyraven]

Black Panther would win in a fight with Cap, but like Batman, only cause he would cheat.

That word always bothers me.. "cheat"? You are talking about heroes who fight villians who are not exactly known for following the rules. If you want to say they are super smart statagists, then I can agree with that. But the whole "cheat" thing is just silly.

Sorry.. pet peeve.

CR

[Wakshaani]

Well, "Cheat" is a thing where two guys are trying to settle things Like Men, then teh other whips out a bomb full of knockout gas or a taser and takes teh win.

That's teh cheating aspect.

-- Wak

[JdRavnos]

Not really- when BP first appeared, he was a pretty tought cookie. It was only over the years that he developed a glass jaw. I think he picked it from U.S. Agent.

CR

Yep, he captured the entire Fantastic Four without much trouble in his first appearance. And he did it just to test himself.

[cappadocius]

Yep, he captured the entire Fantastic Four without much trouble in his first appearance.

Yeah, but as has been pointed out before, EVERYONE is the Ultimate Badass in their first appearance. It's how they do on their subsequent appearances that matters; and if they get their own title, look out.

[FatherDog]

No, I meant the other way around.

Though having thought about it, I guess in myth they're both ill-tempered thugs. I do think mythical Herc is a little cleverer, since being tricked is not a day-to-day event for him.

Well, maybe not a day to day event, but as I noted above, Herc wasn't exactly the brightest bulb, either. And even aside from the mind-control event, he was prone to losing his temper and flying into killing rages.


Herc should have a club. And an impenetrable lionskin. Oh, and a bow with poisoned arrows. Where that bloody mace came from I have NO idea.

Well, as I recall, comic Herc mostly palled around with the Avengers. Making him the expert archer he was in legend would have made Hawkeye even more lame.

[Jian]

Well, as I recall, comic Herc mostly palled around with the Avengers. Making him the expert archer he was in legend would have made Hawkeye even more lame.


Herc was just underused, or used extremely lamely. Let us endeavour to forget the whole towing-Manhattan incident, now that I've brought it up.

Hawkeye was cool - Mark Gruenwald said so. He and Mockingbird are part of my childhood. Bring back Mockingbird! Who the hell wants to see Hellcat again, huh?

[Ghola]

Where does this whole "Black Panther is a badass martial artist with Amazing Fighting" thing come from? In all his appearances, he's never made that impression on me. I don't think he's ever beaten real opposition, like Cap, Iron Fist, Daredevil, Shang-Chi, or even Mantis.

I only saw him when the Avengers were fighting things like Ultron and Korvac... nobody you listed could take those two either.

I'm fond of BP because he's like Tarzan with Batman's intellect. He can run a country *and* wrestle a rhino to the ground! How is that not cool?

[Dr. Doom III]

I think he picked it from U.S. Agent.

CR

Who beat Captain America in their first fight and only lost the second because he was exhausted from just fighting six other guys and suffering the affects of hypothermia.

[Jian]

Who beat Captain America in their first fight and only lost the second because he was exhausted from just fighting six other guys and suffering the affects of hypothermia.

Yet another case of first-appearance plot boost.

I liked John Walker - it was a good storyline (we miss you, Gru). And he really deserved a better costume than the various turkeys he got stuck with after the original Captain uniform.

The current Invaders w John as armoured Captain America is, well, just Austin.

[Jian]

Who beat Captain America in their first fight and only lost the second because he was exhausted from just fighting six other guys and suffering the affects of hypothermia.

Hang on a cotton-picking minute! I've checked my sources and they tell me the first time John Walker and Steve Rogers actually fight to the finish is in Washington after the whole North Pole incident. And Steve won, naturally.

They did clash a couple of time earlier (once back when John was still Super-Patriot and also at the North Pole) but in both cases it was inconclusive.

[David Goodner]

By the way, technically the Champion is no longer the champion. As of the most recent issue of She Hulk, She Hulk is.

David G.