WW2 CCG call for artists

[schafbuch]

Echelon Games, LLC (Seattle WA) is accepting submissions for
the inaugural starter set deck of “Echelon”: a turn-based,
customizable and collectible trading card game with a WW2
theme. Please see www.echeloncards.com for additional details
or email submissions@echeloncards.com.

Entry Deadline: December 12, 2004


Thanks in advance!
Michael
E C H E L O N

[Amanda]

Sounds interesting! What is the pay rate?

[fil kearney]

Thanks for the heads up!

after looking over the website, I didn't see any mention of spcific details, such as pay or size requuirements or resolution (for the digital folks)

could you provide us with these details? if its a non- pay request for pre- fabricated art, this will belong in the Solicitations for Free Art/Writing sub forum


Thanks in advance!


Fil

[GreyT]

thanks for sharing this opportunity here, more info would be appreciated!

[imajicastudio]

I too would like to have info, I sent off an e-mail as well.
Thank you in advance.

[SandraWinters]

I'm really into the WWII era, and I, too, am interested in this opportunity and have sent an email requesting additional information. I visited the site, but it did not give many more details about what this job entails, especially what style of art you are looking for (lineart, colored, grayscale, etc.)

[SandraWinters]

Well, I just received the guidelines in my email, and this paragraph was added to the body of the email:

<i>"Echelon's inaugural starter set does not pay commisssions for
art. Echelon is a speculative venture and will be using a
fee+royalty compensation plan. Details can be found within the
licensing agreement."</i>

[MetalMan]

<i>"Echelon's inaugural starter set does not pay commisssions for
art. Echelon is a speculative venture and will be using a
fee+royalty compensation plan. Details can be found within the
licensing agreement."</i>

i.e. Please give us work for free... if we claim a profit, we'll pay you next time.

Riiiiggghhttttttt...

[Noel Murphy]

This looked good up to this point :(

[David Hamilton]

Well, I just received the guidelines in my email, and this paragraph was added to the body of the email:

<i>"Echelon's inaugural starter set does not pay commisssions for
art. Echelon is a speculative venture and will be using a
fee+royalty compensation plan. Details can be found within the
licensing agreement."</i>


Emphasis mine.

What does this mean? They say they don't pay for commissioned art, but the payment plan is a fee plus royalty? That doesn't make sense.


Should this request be moved to the freebie section?



David

[Mark Brooks]

I'm pretty sceptical about this. They say you are likely to get between $700 - $1000 per card but that seems like dreamland to me. They have 120 cards in their starter pack so I want to do some maths. Lets say each card reaches the $700 mark. Well $700 x 120 (cards in the starter pack) = $84000. So they need to sell 8400 packs at $10 (approximate RRP of CCG decks) a time to make this figure back. I wonder how long that's going to take? That's before they make a profit too. :eek:

This is either going to take a long time for any return or a complete oversight of how well their game will do. I don't want to sound like this is all rubbish because I like the idea of this project but I would advise anyone who looks into doing artwork just to get a business plan of some sort off Echelon so they know how they arrive at this $700 figure or at least expect a lot less for your art.

Out of interest has anyone done card art for Magic or any of the other BIG sellers? If you have would it be possible to give a rough figure on how much each card earns you over how long? If you don't want to give that info out then please just say if you think this figure is feasable for a new game? Thanks.

This of course is just my opinion and I know nothing about how many cards they will sell, but I'm going to ask them and see what they say.

Thanks.

[GreyT]

<i>"Echelon's inaugural starter set does not pay commisssions for art. Echelon is a speculative venture and will be using a
fee+royalty compensation plan. Details can be found within the licensing agreement."</i>

A great example why we hope contributors will read the guidelines before posting. It's a free call, but by not being posting in the appropriate section it's wasted alot of folks time. The debate over whether promises of royalties counts as compensation has already been made, this post should be moved.

and just an observation . . . the first post gave no payment terms, but directed artists to the site for info. There were no terms on the site either, and calls for more info here weren't answered. Now, Sandra's email offers an unclear statement of terms, then promises details will come later . . .

I don't know enough to make a judgement on the deal, but the lack of a direct answer here makes me skeptical also.

[Kiriko Moth]

I also noticed this on their website:

4. Any communication or material you transmit to the Site by electronic mail or otherwise, including any data, questions, comments, suggestions, or the like is, and will be treated as, nonconfidential and non-proprietary. Anything you transmit or post may be used by Echelon Games LLC and its agents for any purpose, including, but not limited to, reproduction, disclosure, transmission, publication, broadcast and posting. Furthermore, Echelon Games LLC is free to use any ideas, concepts, know-how, or techniques contained in any communication you send to the Site for any purpose whatsoever.

Is that standard practice, or does that mean that any sketches or concept art you send them become their property?

[GreyT]

Furthermore, Echelon Games LLC is free to use any ideas, concepts, know-how, or techniques contained in any communication you send to the Site for any purpose whatsoever.

that pretty much speaks for itself

Is that standard practice, or does that mean that any sketches or concept art you send them become their property?

no to your first question, yes to the second

[MetalMan]

Is that standard practice, or does that mean that any sketches or concept art you send them become their property?

If you go by the strict wording of that statement, yes. Anything you send them becomes their property.

I can't speak as an artist but, as a writer, that is pure B.S. Most places will consider anything they DIDN'T ask for as an unsolicited submission that will either a) go into a slush pile for later review or b) summarily be destroyed unopened/returned to sender. In either case, they own nothing other than the option to review your submission.

Either they copied these legalese from some other source completely unrelated to RPG/CCG work or they're venturing into real shady legal practices.

I'm not saying to not consider working for these folks but I'd be extremely leery because this honestly makes it look like they're trying to pull a fast one.

[AndyHep]

I don't think this is standard practice at all, though I have noticed one or two other companies doing it. Though I suspect it isn't legal, don't quote me on that. Companies may get you to sign a waiver, so that any similar products which they produce are not attributable to your submission (Marvel, DC etc - its a way of protecting their back against the 101 ideas submissions they get every day, some of which are likely to be similar in some respect to products they release).

Perhaps Echelon can clear up any misunderstandings and post here explaining their vague and slightly confusing statements? Thanks in advance,

Andy

[Brutus]

I think they're hoping for sample art they can steal and then point out the clause, knowing that the chances of getting sued are actually pretty slim.

Also, their pay-later estimates are insane. Anyone report the thread? That's how it's going to get moved.

[Melissa G]

I've seen two other RPG companies doing it for UNSOLICITED submissions... but it seems totally shady to claim ownership of solicited submissions, which any response to their RPGNet Freelancers Forum post would perforce be.

[schafbuch]

QUOTE=MetalMan]i.e. Please give us work for free... if we claim a profit, we'll pay you next time.

Riiiiggghhttttttt...[/QUOTE]

Stubbs:
if you have no interest in this art and know nothing about it's business, why the sarcasm?..since when did any artist get paid what he or she truly deserves. Do you think Echelon is going to pay $100,000 up front for art that may never be published?
Echelon is paying more than the typical card rate (assuming it gets made, artists retain ALL rights to their work and the royalties don't "end" after one edition. Show me a card co. that does better and I'll rework my model.
Regards,
Schafbuch

[schafbuch]

Echelon is paying a fee upon based on sales. Since when did artists of card art audit books anyway. A commission with no stipulations (as is usual) gives the artist 0% of art rights and reprint $. Yes, it gives the artist a one time payment for the art and if that's you, great. As a one-time magic artist, I wish I had a piece of the change that they made .

[MetalMan]

if you have no interest in this art and know nothing about it's business, why the sarcasm?..since when did any artist get paid what he or she truly deserves. Do you think Echelon is going to pay $100,000 up front for art that may never be published?


I never said that... and yes, as a business, you should be prepared to pay $100,000 upfront. You are essentially asking artists to forgo such nice things as paying their rent, bills, etc. to do work on a speculative venture. The time they would be investing into your potential for a profit work is time that they could be working with established clients with a history of payment or time that could be invested into developing their portfolio.

So, I'm saying that you, as a business entity, should be willing to accept a risk that your product will tank or not do as well as you estimate. Asking a freelancer to bear the burden with you is not cool. If you are that confident in its success, pay the artist at least half upfront or make some other financial gesture towards them.