Looking for a Writer?

[Gimgolas]

I am a freelance writer who is looking to break into the RPG realm. I am open to suggestions on exactly how to go about doing that. Also, if you would be interested in discussing an actual writing job. Please feel free to reply to this or email me directly. Samples of writing in a specific genre are available upon request. Thank you for your time and any suggestions or support you can give me.

[Storn]

I'm one of the regular freelance artists who posts here and I've been in the gaming industry awhile. But I don't have anything published that is a writing job, so my advice may be superfulous.

First thing, get a website, post some SHORT samples of your writing. That way, when you post anything, you can have a signature (like mine) at the bottom of the e-mail, the posting that will direct interested parties to your website.

There was a thread a while back that had a Writer vs. Artist in RPG industry. A lot of decent advice was thrown around there. The plain fact is that you can look at one of my illos and decide in 5 seconds if you like it or not. It takes 5 minutes to get a handle on something that is written.

Volunteer. Find webzines, fan magazines...all need articles all the time. Keep submitting to them, build up a name.

Practice. Practice. Practice. This goes for all artists, dancers, writers, visual arts... you name the art, it is a craft. That craft has to be practiced. Every single day. You will get better. Don't worry about getting better...it will happen as long as you are producing. That is truly the best advice (and the one of the toughest to follow).

Good luck.

[kabael]

My recommendation is to talk with people every chance you get, and to contact companies that you like to offer to playtest (also, smaller companies are better for this).

Chat people up and make friends, and that way there will be people who (A) know you name and (B) know your skills to either offer you work or forward you to possible openings elsewhere.

[Laurel]

Besides samples on your own web page, find a good RPG site that needs a columnist or book reviewer and apply for the job. Start a portfolio of non-fiction articles and reviews. The advantage to having a column for a while is that it lets publishers see that you can stay committed to a project long-term and meet deadlines. Its also a good way to start earning name recognition within the online game community.

Laurel Stuart
External Developer, Skotos Tech
Volunteer Java Chat Staff, White Wolf Games

[Stormprince]

Take risks... troll through every website of every company you can think of even remotely being able to write for, make notes on who's searching for freelancers, ask what they want to see from, what they need...and write.

There are a few companies out there desperate for freelancers...and others who only use In-House Writers. Get to know the companies that need freelancers, open up a road of communication with them, see what comes of it.

Biggest piece of advice I can offer? Don't hesitate, just do it...

[Misguided]

Seriously, the first thing I'd do is correct the grammatical errors in your post. I don't mean to be harsh, but why on earth would i have interest in hiring a writer who makes typos on what amounts to a job application? If you can't take the time to be careful with this, people will assume the same is true for your writing.

Next, provide your real name. It's one thing if I see someone online and think that I liek their style, but if you are soliciting work, I think it is better to let people know who you are dealing with. This is, of course, unless you are known for work under a pen name.

Third, tell people what kind of work you have done previously. is there anywhere we can see any of it?

For a well-done example, go check out the thread started by eyebeams.

[Gimgolas]

Ok, so I went through and checked my post twice and the only grammatical error I could find was a period where a comma could be. I do thank you for your suggestions and yes I agree that if I was posting in here for an actual job I would have gone about it in a more professional manner. However, if I had meant to post for an actual job posting I most likely would have used another form of 'spreading the word.' I was merely using this forum to speak with people who are more experienced in the areas of RPG's. Again I thank you for your suggestions, the only problem I seemed to have with your post was you made it seem like there were multiple errors in my post. The thing you should remember is that as a writer I use spelling and grammar checks before posting anything, including just a general post. I agree that if I had been posting for a job I would have checked more thoroughly for a misplaced punctuation mark. Anyway, I do appreciate all information that can be given to me about the actual market of RPG and it's related business.

[Misguided]

I know what you're saying, but first impressions matter to some people. The rest of it is ok, but I bet you can do better.

I guess you're right from the standpoint that this isn't exactly a "jobs wanted" forum, but I look at the forum regularly, and while my company may not be a blip on the radar yet, I bet other people in a position to hire freelancers look here too. Something to consider.

[Gareth-Michael Skarka]

"Gimgolas"--

I own a company, I'm also a freelance writer and editor, and I'm the administrator of a email list for working RPG freelancers.

You've said:

<i> if I was posting in here for an actual job I would have gone about it in a more professional manner. However, if I had meant to post for an actual job posting I most likely would have used another form of 'spreading the word.' I was merely using this forum to speak with people who are more experienced in the areas of RPG's. </i>

However, in your first post, you said:

<i>Also, if you would be interested in discussing an actual writing job. Please feel free to reply to this or email me directly. Samples of writing in a specific genre are available upon request. </i>

So, you *were* also looking for an 'actual job.'

<i>The thing you should remember is that as a writer I use spelling and grammar checks before posting anything, including just a general post.</i>

There is much more to being a writer than using programmed spelling and grammar checks. You should know the rules yourself, and use them. Relying upon automatic check programs results, more often than not, in embarrassing mistakes and run-on sentences.

In fact, the only thing that your posts DO tell me is that:

a) you aren't mature enough to accept constructive criticism...you'd rather attempt to disprove the criticism, even when your own words contradict you.

and

b) you rely on electronics rather than attempting to improve your craft.

Neither of which is a strong recommendation for hiring you as a freelance writer.

GMS

[Gimgolas]

Well I can understand how it may appear to look that way from one aspect. The thing is, I did go back to double check myself when I read the post. So, I was able to admit I can make a mistake and am willing to go back and correct my error and own up to the responsibility of being wrong. I in no way was trying to disprove I was wrong, in fact I admitted to having a punctuation error in my post. Now as for relying on electronical devices to check my work, I fully agree a writer must double check his own work without the aide or use of a machine. All I was trying to say was this, had I been using the first post as an actual 'want ad' for a job I would have gone about it in a more professional manner. I am not trying to put down this site or those who use it to find jobs. In fact I would have no problem about using this forum or this site to post an ad for looking for work, I simply would have titled the post differently and included with my post there would have been more substance. I merely as I originally stated am looking for advice in the RP world. I added the 'looking for a writer' part so if someone was searching for a position they might inquire for a resume or some examples. Just because I am 'new' to the RPG writing world, does not by any means state that I am a new writer. Now I am in no way attempting to start a debate because that is just bad business for everyone who gets involved, I am merely trying to learn as much and receive as many helpful hints along my path as I head towards a goal. Any writer should know it is never a good thing to think one has reached his highest potential at any time in his life. One should always strive to be open for advice or hints along the way from those who have learned. Part of the reason I posted such a small simple post, to draw attention and have those who have been here awhile help me learn the ropes. I have already set about doing many of the tips that were first posted in response to my original post. So having said more than enough, I again simply ask for any true advice that anyone may give to me.

[Storn]

>>. All I was trying to say was this, had I been using the first post as an actual 'want ad' for a job I would have gone about it in a more professional manner. <<<

Not to jump on the bandwagon...well, I am going to jump on the bandwagon.

Gim, what you said in my selected quote above is not acceptable.

This might not be the highest profile forum... but many pros do peruse it (myself included). You, me, we all should conduct ourselves as professionals at all times. ESPECIALLY when asking for work as a writer! You weren't discussing a RPG author or a genre style...where it is absolutely fine to be casual... you were asking for work as a writer.

This doesn't mean uptight and formal. It does mean taking (and giving constructive) criticism. One can be casual, yet with strong writing. Although, I have to say that I wasn't all that impressed with your request for work.

All you have going for you is the words that you have written that will be seen by everyone on their screens. You are making a claim of being a wordsmith.

Us artists can get away with a bit of bad grammar, crappy run-on sentences...because no one expects us to be mini-Shakespeares... or even mini-Tom Clancys. Everyone expects us to draw, paint, move pixels around in a professional manner.

But you have no such luxury. IF you want to be a writing pro, then every time you set down to write, it should be the best that it can be. Hell, it is my sneaking suspicion that the internet

Also, just a pet peeve of mine, since these forums don't allow for tabs, please break up your replies into paragraphs. It just makes for a more organized, pleasing and easier to read experience. That is my 2 cents.

[Gimgolas]

Ok, it is rather apparent to me that once a rock starts rolling down a hill in here you can't stop it. That being said, I will for the sake of everyone's apparent sanity retract ALL statements I have made.

I thought that I had made it known I was simply seeking for some advice from the RP world. The core of my actual first post was simply for some tips, hints or advice not for a job. I have a job, a very nice one at that. I admit that phrase about a writing job was in there, but it was more as a side note.

I somewhat tried to not step on anyone's toes while seeking this advice. And even though I did receive some rather good help, mostly all I received was guff about how improper and poorly my post was written.

I understand that as professionals we must seek to be profession when discussing our jobs, but does anyone truly think that Shakespeare went around constantly talking in perfect prose? The thing is we are all human and to be a constant perfect doesn't even exist. It seems to me that people expect others to be spotless and without wrinkle, but then they do not live up to that level of expectation themselves.

Perhaps that is why the arts have such a bad wrap. Due partially to the misunderstood and misguided venues that we all take, and because of this false hypocritic world that has been created.

I thought I had properly made my point known I simply was looking for some tips and advice. Apparently one can only be a buying and not a browser on this site.

I've been checking out this site for quite some time now, and during that time I've seen people open their arms and welcome helping newcomers to the RPG site. This in mind I thought I would ask for some simple tips and overnight I seemed to have been overtly shunned by all.

Perhaps I went about things in an unprofessional manner to that I apoligize for all or any I have offended. I will simply close with this, why is it that writers seem to be the only ones who must be perfect at all times. I mean weather men can be wrong and they still have jobs, newspapers misprint in every issue and yet they continue to thrive, magazines have their mistakes and yet we still subscribed to them every year. But in one post on a day in February a writer is seemingly shunned for a misunderstood post?

Having said my share, and opened my mind and heart. I look out upon the crowd and having given my poor performance not a single praise is heard, but being a performer to the last I do the only thing that is let to do.... I take my final bow.

[Gareth-Michael Skarka]

Originally posted by Gimgolas

Perhaps I went about things in an unprofessional manner to that I apoligize for all or any I have offended. I will simply close with this, why is it that writers seem to be the only ones who must be perfect at all times. I mean weather men can be wrong and they still have jobs, newspapers misprint in every issue and yet they continue to thrive, magazines have their mistakes and yet we still subscribed to them every year. But in one post on a day in February a writer is seemingly shunned for a misunderstood post?


I doubt you're still reading this, but I just thought that I'd clarify. You aren't being "shunned".

But the fact remains: You *HAVE* been given advice....which you obviously haven't picked up on. That means one of two things: either you don't understand, and hence don't recognize the advice you've been given; or you are willfully ignoring it.

Personally, I'm not sure which is worse.

GMS

[Gimgolas]

I recognize I was being given advice... about how to post for a job. The truth was I was trying to initially ask for advice on topics, genre, stories. Things that people like about rpg's. The truth be known it was starting to sound like the advice being given was more intent on trying to teach me how to post for a job.

Perhaps shunned was the improper word, but it seemed to fit at the time. Anyway, I was merely looking for ideas, thoughts, possibilites. I have plenty of experience in the area of writing resume's. In fact I have helped many friends and family members write their resume's with wonderful success.

I can see how I should have been more specific on the 'help' I was looking for, instead I received some good tips and advice for what I was looking for, and then advice on how to write. I have been writing since I was a small child and have many published works. I was in no attempt trying to learn how to write. Although I am open for that type of help, when I ask for a specific thing to be proof-read.

The entire thing has turned into something way beyond what I was looking or asking for, one little post asking for plots and ideas. Which turned into giving me advice on how to write my posts in the forums.

Anyway, again I apologize for any misconfusion or problems I may have caused, and if I offended anyone I am sorry. I simply am new to this 'realm' and was trying to find my place on the site. I do look forward to future 'talks' and advice from all who have been helpful. And even though, from those of you who have posted, it sounds like I have about as much chance to help out in the areas of writing as a snowball in hell. I do hope that this incident doesn't taint or cause any presumptions to be made about me or my abilitiy.

Thank you all, Jeremy Williams

[Gareth-Michael Skarka]

Originally posted by Jeremy Williams
I have been writing since I was a small child and have many published works.

Somehow, I doubt that....unless by "having many published works" you mean that you OWN many published works, written by others.

I can't see a published writer using phrases like "I was in no attempt trying to learn how to write", or words like "misconfusion".

Jeremy....trust me on this one. Stop. You're just making it worse.

GMS

(EDIT: To everyone else: Sorry for appearing so relentless. It's just that when someone titles a thread "Looking for a Writer?" and then claims that he wasn't actually looking for work.....and compounds it with claims of being a writer, while displaying the made-up syntax and grammar of a high-school sophomore....well, let's just say that I get more than a bit persnickety. I'll stop now.)

[Gimgolas]

Well to be quite honest I never said it was books that I had published. You merely assumed I was talking about books. I can honestly see why I've never heard of your company. Anyone who is so persistent on trying to take things out of context and pound something into the ground beyond the confines of making a point will never be in charge of a company long at all.

I would attempt to point out that never during any of these post have I truly attempted to write in 'perfect' grammar or writing ability. But every effort I've made to try and prove my point of just passing through the site and wanting some friendly advice, has only seemed to bring the aggressors gloves up even further.

It is quite apparent that for the few, namely one, you are incapable of thinking outside of the box. You have become locked in on a set way. It was people like you who told e.e. cummings he was a bad writer because he never capitalized anything. I suppose you would sit and argue with him and tell him his grammatical errors made him 'look the fool' and that he should stop.

As for the high school sophomore crack, yes I somewhat expected the ridicule and mockery. I find it amusing that at no point have I been hostile and yet you just couldn't keep this a clean post. You just had to hit below the belt. You have become a Mike Tyson of some sort, having nothing positive to add to anything and resorting to childlike behavior to gain attention or praise.

If you have that shallow of a life and need that much attention that you have to take a simple request for some tips and try and turn it into a verbal assault. Yes I know the title of the post was 'Looking for a Writer?' but did it ever cross your mind that maybe I was looking for someone on here who was also a writer, in which I could discuss certain questions I have. No, probably not, because you assume you know exactly what is going on in everyone's life around you. You think you know everything about everyone.

I could say a few things here to end the whole discussion, but I expect you still will have a few choice things to say. So, I will simply sit back and wait for another childish response from you. That way I will once again be amazed as to how low and close-minded you can truly sink.

To all others I simply have this to say. My apologies I made earlier still stand with you. I have meant no harm or foul in my attempt to discuss questions I have about the RPG realm. I have merely taken off the gloves in response to an unprovoked attack from someone who crossed over the line of professionalism.

[Jon H]

Phew! I'm not sure I should stick my nose into this one....

But hell, I just read about 20 posts, so I'm going to!

Gimgolas, I feel for you, I really do. The one defence you now have is to drop it. I say this, because I've been in exactly the same boat. I'm not criticising you, its advice.

If you write a lengthy, defensive reply to a critical post, you are declaring open season on yourself. Check out the RPGnet open forum to test this hypothesis.

You do come across as defensive, and I understand why. But you are currently only digging a deeper hole.

It really incites others if you criticise the forum, or talk about the rock rolling.
My guess is there's a lot of writers on this forum who are struggling with making ends meet. They have to be absolutely rigorous about their practice to continue to work Hence they are often a bit on edge. I know I get like this with people who are off-hand about the "easy life" of artists.

Now, your best bet if you disagree with what I'm saying is to let someone else come in and say "that's too harsh". If you jump in yourself you just wind up looking insecure. You may well BE insecure, but it's not always wise to show it. Again I'm speaking from bitter experience, rather than lecturing.

Whatever you may now feel about Gareth-Michael Sarka, he is a potential employer. Other potential employers will look at how you have reacted, and judge on that. You haven't heard of his company? That speaks more about your lack of knowledge in this field, than his company.

Such is the lot of the freelancer. Sometimes you have to decide whether to be right, or whether to work. Sometimes the two cannot co-exist. It's not fair, but that's the game.

One thing I have learned in my freelance career thus far, is people that are brutally honest are worth 100 folks who just say "that's nice". Getting genuine feedback is painful, but worthwhile. Just fighting it misses the point.


Professionally, I think you have made a mistake in taking too much to heart.

Personally, I feel really bad for you as you have dug a really big hole, and I totally understand why.

Enough out of me.

[Stormprince]

See that post above, the one by Jon H? *chuckles*

I second it, whole-heartedly!

I just started freelancing myself, and I know that when I'm actually 'writing professionally', I write very differently and less like I'm speaking - like I tend to do on messageboards. However, because I know there are publishers and others who may someday have some influence on my working, I've tried my damnedest to pay closer attention to what I'm writing and how I'm writing it, even if it's on a Tangency post.

Let it rest, peacefully. If you want to prove the nay-sayers wrong, do it by getting your work published and doing a damn good job with it - write it with the best that you have in you, give it your everything. At least then, if you fail, you'll do it honestly - knowing that you gave it your best shot.

And like Jon H said... arguing with a potential employer, one who networks with other potential employers, can be dangerous. Better for them to pass good things along about your writing, than bad things along about your perceived fractitious attitude.

All that said... keep trying to find those jobs. I always like the idea of more writers out there... I thrive on adversity ;)

[Storn]

I would like to remind you Gim, that the first four replies, one of which was mine, had excellent advice on just what you were looking for; ways to break in.

Then someone mentioned the misspelling and the murky request for work. I noticed those things when I first replied to you (and I was the first reply) and winced a bit.... but I ignored them. Gave you the benefit of the doubt.

So you did get what you were asking for. It might not have been in the way you wanted. But I have to agree for publishers taking you to task on mispelling, over defensiveness. I'm sorry, but that is the way I read it.

Good luck to you.

[NPC]

Originally posted by Gimgolas
Well to be quite honest I never said it was books that I had published. You merely assumed I was talking about books.


He did not do any such thing. He never used the word "books." He meant published works of any sort, I presume: books, poems, short stories, RPG adventures, magazine articles, CD liner notes, travel brochures, or just about anything else.


I can honestly see why I've never heard of your company. Anyone who is so persistent on trying to take things out of context and pound something into the ground beyond the confines of making a point will never be in charge of a company long at all.

Oh, so now, in addition to being such a widely published professional writer (who, in spite of being widely published, has no idea how to break into publishing), you are also an expert on business practices?


I would attempt to point out that never during any of these post have I truly attempted to write in 'perfect' grammar or writing ability.

The problem is not that you haven't tried to write in "perfect" grammar. It's that you make mistakes no decent writer would make, no matter how little care he was using. If you want to prove to us that you are a real writer, why not just write well so that we can see for ourselves? You make these claims that the only reason we don't recognize you as a good writer is because we haven't seen a product of your sincere efforts as a writer. The solution, natch, is to show us how good you can be and let us be the judges. Don't just say, "I'm better than you think I am." Show us.


It is quite apparent that for the few, namely one, you are incapable of thinking outside of the box.

What? I would probably call this claim ridiculous if I knew exactly what the claim is, but the whole sentence is so poorly formed that determining your intent is nearly impossible.


You have become locked in on a set way. It was people like you who told e.e. cummings he was a bad writer because he never capitalized anything. I suppose you would sit and argue with him and tell him his grammatical errors made him 'look the fool' and that he should stop.

e.e. cummings wrote poetry in free form, which most literary scholars accept. You are writing prose. Poetry can break the rules; prose must follow them. This is particularly true when attempting to present yourself in a professional manner.


As for the high school sophomore crack, yes I somewhat expected the ridicule and mockery. I find it amusing that at no point have I been hostile and yet you just couldn't keep this a clean post. You just had to hit below the belt. You have become a Mike Tyson of some sort, having nothing positive to add to anything and resorting to childlike behavior to gain attention or praise.

This is absolutely ridiculous. If he had called your mother a dirty crack ho or something, he would have been "hitting below the belt." Pointing out that your grammar is about as clean as that of a high school sophomore is merely an excellent observation. By the way, in case your reading skills are as well-developed as your writing skills, I am not saying that your mother is a dirty crack ho.


If you have that shallow of a life and need that much attention that you have to take a simple request for some tips and try and turn it into a verbal assault. Yes I know the title of the post was 'Looking for a Writer?' but did it ever cross your mind that maybe I was looking for someone on here who was also a writer, in which I could discuss certain questions I have. No, probably not, because you assume you know exactly what is going on in everyone's life around you. You think you know everything about everyone.

Why would a writer be looking for another writer? Also, your first post clearly states that your message is intended for anyone who might have a writing job for you to take.


I could say a few things here to end the whole discussion, but I expect you still will have a few choice things to say. So, I will simply sit back and wait for another childish response from you. That way I will once again be amazed as to how low and close-minded you can truly sink.

You mean you'll be upset that you didn't get the last word. By the way, how "close-minded" can someone "sink"? You don't want us to attack the problems in your writing, so be more careful if you're really that good!


To all others I simply have this to say. My apologies I made earlier still stand with you. I have meant no harm or foul in my attempt to discuss questions I have about the RPG realm. I have merely taken off the gloves in response to an unprovoked attack from someone who crossed over the line of professionalism.

If anyone "crossed over the line of professionalism," it certainly was not you. You never behaved in a professional manner to begin with.

Learn to take some criticism. The fact that you cannot is the absolute proof that you are no writer.

[Axelos]

The previous post is mine. If Gimgolas wants to start flaming me now, I assume he would like to know who he's flaming. :D

[Jon H]

Call me an old liberal, but, really, come on...

I think the guy has had enough kicks to the head for one day. This is getting to be a feeding frenzy. And I had been enjoying the lack of that round these parts.:(

I don't agree with him, but equally I don't want to see anyone crucified line by line.

[Axelos]

Originally posted by Jon H

I think the guy has had enough kicks to the head for one day.

Sorry, I just felt he invited it by refusing to accept the well-founded criticism and instead attacking his critic.

But hey, I agree. No need to drive something into the ground.

So, I will just shut up and be on my way.

(Unless someone provokes me...hehe :D )

[NPC NPC1]

It is at this time that I would like to step in and perhaps shed some light on what has happened. For the purpose of remaining anonymous, due to the amount of letters I would receive if I revealed my name, you can just call me Mr. X.

Jeremy was hired by me in order to perform a series of test. One of which was to see the acceptance and level of friendliness in the world of role-playing adventures. We chose this site for obvious reasons, and we were not disappointed with any of the results. That is until the results of this last test.

This was an attempt to see just how receptive and helpful fellow writers and gamers would be to someone breaking into the game world. Also to test the response time of possible companies and how they would handle an amateur writer.

I hired Jeremy based purely on his skill and performance as a true writer. In fact he has helped me out on various occassions when my own writer's were tied up. He did, in my opinion, a wonderful job of posting like a young curious writer would post. Obviously making mistakes that any seasoned writer would easily see, and yet having enough touch to make it sound sincere and heartfelt.

As a business owner I wanted to test the waters of the gaming market. I can see that there is a large opening and market for a company that is willing to train and work with people on skill improval. Also, a company that works between Game Owners and the Writers/Artist who seek employment.

I do thank you all for your participation in this test and for those of you who responded with advice and tips to 'young Gimgolas' I thank you. For those of you who saw it as an opportunity to take pot shots at someone I hope next time you will be careful how you phrase your responses to 'newbies'. I am sure at first you saw it merely as a way to try and help, however, no one is ever helped out in the long run by beating them down first. I know the world is a harsh, cruel place and many times things of that nature happen. However, the best way to help someone along is to try and kindly point them in a direction. Gain their trust and then move on to pointing out flaws or areas that need improvement.

Again I thank all of you for taking time out to respond and add your opinion to the post. I would like to send a special thanks to Jeremy for yet again doing a wonderful job. I looked forward to working with you again Jeremy and I trust this test does not tarnish your reputation.

I apologize for the quality and length of this post. I would have liked to been able to say more and give more in depth detail about the actual tests and their results. Currently I am running behind as it is and need to leave to catch my flight. I trust this post will openly shed some light on the way things are and how we all should work together to improve them.

Until next time, Sincerely
Mr. X

[Gareth-Michael Skarka]

You've got to be fucking kidding me.

GMS

[Tenacious B]

You've got to be fucking kidding me.

I think that statement sums it up for most people who were involved in this thread or lurked, Gareth.

What the hell is he talking about? An experiement to "test the waters of the gaming market?" What does that mean? On what grounds? How will this theory assist his alleged business model?

I dunno, color me stupid, but that was truly a perfidious ploy to bait people into an equally deceitful "test."

How fucking ridiculous...

[Gareth-Michael Skarka]

Originally posted by Mark Bruno
How fucking ridiculous...

It wouldn't be quite so pathetic if it weren't for the fact that the stupid bastard is such a bad writer that he couldn't even change his syntax enough to disguise the fact that Mr. X and Gimgolas are quite obviously the same person.

I think this one takes the cake, folks. I mean, in the total history of RPGnet. This one ranks even higher than U Dog's whole "Ha! I was testing you, to see if you'd react!" BS from last year. At least U Dog had the balls to post that little bit of crap himself, instead of posing as a third party businessman, complete with comments about having "a flight to catch." (ooooh....he must be a high roller! I'm so impressed. Jet-setters really make me wet.:rolleyes: )

GMS

[Matt Drake]

If this was a test, then how come the dude kept coming back for more? If this was just a little experiment, how come he felt the need to take such umbrage when he got some serious advice? If this is a test, I'm Bruce Jenner.

Hey, mystery guest? Fuck you. Post your name or kiss my ass.

I don't get pissed at people on this site - except when we get played. Yeah, I didn't buy into this one, but that's mostly because I just got here. Otherwise I would have told him that Skarka and Misguided are right on - if you write poorly when asking for work as a writer, you won't get hired. Best of luck, Gim, but seriously, this was the lamest backpedal I ever saw. Even worse than that stupid 'Why I Hate Synister' post Gareth's talking about.

Matt Drake
www.spectrepress.com

[Stormprince]

Until next time, Sincerely
Mr X

You know, I probably would have been more likely to write this entire situation off as one of those 'stupid things business people do', but when a business person, supposedly a professional, hides behind an anonymous identity, it just sets off all kinds of little alarms (okay, mostly it sets off fits of laughter, but it was [i]alarmed[/] laughter? No, I don't buy that either... I know myself too well...)

Using a messageboard as a forum for a 'test' just strikes me as extremely poor judgement, particularly since (and I am making a HUGE assumption here) the individual only used a single messageboard forum for their test. What happened to control groups? Cross-referencing results?

Back up your 'findings' with evidence, otherwise, I'm not likely to believe your theory.

(Not that the 'professional' writer or the 'businessman' who initiated this so-called test will likely respond, as they have already 'completed' their test....)

*just shakes his head and chuckles in wry amusement to himself*

*blushes violently and edits for errors!*

[Jon H]

Whatever the truth of the situation, I'm really fucked off with it. I spent a lot of last night feeling sorry for a guy who had made bad mistakes but was paying too high a price.

I'm well aware that once you switch off the computer you can feel very alone, and felt that Gimpgolas, or whatever, was not quite as tough as he was making out.

I was also very disappointed by the fact that people who were just passing, with no investment in giving advice, felt that it was ok to pile in on the guy. He was a pretty lame target all in all, and it really shows up the darker side of some personalities.

I didn't agree with his attitude, but guessed he was young, and didn't deal with criticism very well.

Now this. Please reveal your real name so that I can email all my clients and contacts to warn them what a cretin you are.

I hope you realise what a pathetic stunt you just pulled off. I was trying to help you, potentially at the cost of alienating new clients and new friends on this forum.

You have also greatly increased the chance of what happened to you happening to others in the future. Bleeding hearts like myself now have even less credibility. Well done, I hope you are satisfied.

[Eric Lofgren]

This has got to be the strangest thing I've seen come down the pike in a long time. This whole "Gimgolas/Jeremy/Gotta plane to catch" thing has potentially damaged this forum beyond repair (who ya gonna trust?) or it's some weird sort of performance art thing and everyones been played for a sucker.
Sadly, it's people like Jon, who's kind and sympathetic words, which I'm sure weren't the easiest thing to write, are essentially wasted air. Very thoughtless on behalf of our mysterious stranger dude, "test" or no "test".

Christ Jeremy, fess up like a.... "whatever" you are and then go home.

[Adam]

Originally posted by Eric Lofgren
who ya gonna trust?
People who exhibit the qualities of someone trustworthy? :)

I don't mean that in a tongue in cheek way, either. There are people in every online forum that I trust and respect the opinions of, and there are people that have either not earned the right to be trusted or have earned the right not to be trusted. For me, this comes naturally, not taking any [much] extra time or thought.

[Axelos]

Well, you know, after thinking about it for a while, I was really sorry I was so rough on the guy. He did make some serious mistakes and got very defensive rather than taking the criticism well, but he did at least acknowledge that his writing contained errors. My problem was that he was asserting that he really is a good writer but not showing us any evidence to back up that claim. Still, like I said, I was sorry for being so rough on him.

Now I'm not sorry.

[Matt Drake]

Just warned.

Gimgolas was looking for advice, got more than he wanted, heard some stuff he didn't want to hear, and overreacted. The Mr. X thing was almost hilarious, though - turns out Jeremy is really Jamie Kennedy!

But we still know eachother. We know Lofgren, and Christian Walker, and Storn and Chris and Jon and Hershey and all the other guys we knew yesterday morning. Offer help to newbies, if you want, but keep in mind that they haven't proven themselves until they prove themselves (should go without saying).

And honestly, one troll with a stick up his ass is no reason to get upset. Though if I knew him personally I would probably hit him in the eye for being a chickenshit. Of course, none of us is going to know him because revealing his name would compromise his secret spy identity.

I gotta go catch my flight.

Matt Drake
www.spectrepress.com

[Jon H]

You know its a weird thing, but Gimpgolas can't really damage the forum. It's not going to stop me posting, or giving honestly, the best of my limited experience.

I think worrying too much about letting people damage the forum could damage the forum.


I think, sometimes its worth remembering that the written word can be much more powerful and lasting in its effects than speech. Taking time to consider what we post here is sometimes tough, but probably a good idea.



If I were him, I would re-register under a different name, and after a bit of attitude adjustment, try it again. There's so much to be gained here.

Shall we all let this one go now? (We can keep chatting about it if anyone wants to, but I think there's little to say now...):)


(edited to cram in more trite pathos...;) )

Oh yeah, there's party on my Lear tonight, and everyones invited!!!!

[Misguided]

Holy cats! I sure didn't expect to touch off a flame war here. Who knew? I think my initial post came across a tad harsh, perhaps, because there have been a number of posts similar to this one, recently. I'm certainly not cocky or above it all because I own a game company which has as yet published precisely nothing. I tried to moderate slightly in the second post. For instance, the original post said "a specific genre"...which one? I thought given the initial reaction that might be perceived as a tremendous nitpick, which it is.

[Faeryll]

I am confused. Call me ignorant, yes I have a tough skin so you can say it, but why should someone be based solely on their grammatics or sentence structure when applying for a job within a creative company. When you come down to it RPGs are more a mecca of creative energies than they are strict English institutions. Now I understand that this guy tried to slough off his post as an "experiement", but what if it had been a potentially perfect gaming mind? What I mean to say is that aren't you gurus of the gaming market looking for someone who is more than just a good writer, but someone who can also create? Hell, I have published material and my grammatics and sentence structures are for the dogs, that is what editors are for. Pull your heads out of the clouds for a few minutes and come back down to Earth. Even those who rode upon the grammatical bandwagan had poor structure and grammatics. This is a forum, not a publised magazine. Give people a break before throwing a huge pile of stinking ridicule towards them. :confused:

[Armin D. Sykes]

Pull your heads out of the clouds for a few minutes and come back down to Earth. Even those who rode upon the grammatical bandwagan had poor structure and grammatics. This is a forum, not a publised magazine. Give people a break before throwing a huge pile of stinking ridicule towards them.

First off, the original post asked about writing. Not game design, not world design, not anything but *writing*. If you're going to ask about writing jobs, you should demonstrate that you can write.

Second, he did receive advice. He refused to take it to heart, and instead insisted on arguing about it with everyone. That's where the more annoyed posts came from.

The whole X business is a load of crap that just got dropped on top, who knows why.

The fact is, lots of people come to RPGnet for advice. The vast majority of them get some, take it well, presumably improve, and everyone goes on happily. Some, however, argue about it, and create mini-firestorms, as if they weren't really here for advice after all. Those people often get jumped on, because that's what people tend to be like on the 'net.

It would be nice if this thread could die a nice peaceful death now.

Armin

[Tenacious B]

I am confused. Call me ignorant, yes I have a tough skin so you can say it, but why should someone be based solely on their grammatics or sentence structure when applying for a job within a creative company. When you come down to it RPGs are more a mecca of creative energies than they are strict English institutions.

As a professional editor by trade, I find this statement offensive (well, maybe that's too harsh a word, but you get the drift :) ). In any case, this entire industry is predicated on the written word, so to debase its importance is uttery irresponsible. Of course, creativity is an important element, but it's only half the battle. If you can't write in a coherent fashion, following conventional grammar standards, then that "creative energy" will, unfortunately, get lost in the shuffle.

There is simply no alternative to correct grammar and punctuation. Incorrect grammar and punctuation can change the meaning of an entire sentence, the results of which could be far-reaching. Even if the meaning is not changed, bad grammar, however inconsequential, can cause the reader to lose track of what is being said and give up reading. How's that for blowing creativity out the window?

What I mean to say is that aren't you gurus of the gaming market looking for someone who is more than just a good writer, but someone who can also create?

To a certain extent, yes. The ability to express creatively is very important, but if the writer cannot craft a simple clause or phrase then why should I waste my time reading it? Strong writing will set you and your work apart from the stacks of mail reaching editors every day. You want your first "contact" to do the best possible job of convincing an editor to read your manuscript in the first place!

Hell, I have published material and my grammatics and sentence structures are for the dogs, that is what editors are for.

Then I'd honestly like to know where you've been published. I mean, seriously...

This is a forum, not a publised magazine. Give people a break before throwing a huge pile of stinking ridicule towards them.

Fair enough. But I think the ridicule-slinging began once Gim started getting defensive about advice that WAS being given.

Mark Bruno

[Faeryll]

I understand that someone who cannot put together a coherent sentence is not going to be even looked at. I am refering to people who leave out a comma or a semi-colon, people who use thier or make small grammatical errors. The rebutters decided to rip him for very small structural mistakes. Re-reading the previous posts I see that it was the threads starter that did become entirely too defensive for his own good and turned this into a flame war. All I am trying to say is that you can't discout someone for the small mistakes.

I am not here to be judged or to defend myself, so I am not going to jot down the places I have been published. If you feel that everyone should cite all their previous writing experiences, lets start with yours.

[Tenacious B]

I am not here to be judged or to defend myself, so I am not going to jot down the places I have been published. If you feel that everyone should cite all their previous writing experiences, lets start with yours.

Okay...for starters:

Red Dwarf: The Roleplaying Game by Deep7, editor and co-author
Fist Full of Six Gun Scenarios by Deep7, co-author
More Tales of Terror by Pagan Publishing, contributing author
The Seventh Seal by Creative Illusions, editor
Dinosaur Planet by Goodman Games, editor
The Hand of Antar for Deep7's Star Legion RPG, author
The Dame Was Loaded for Deep7s Dime Heroes, author
The Lost Pharoah for Deep7s Dime Heroes, author
The Lost Art of Copy-Editing, RPGnet
Mean Streets: The RPG of Classic Film Noir, author
Grimmworld for Deep7, currently in development


Should I list my non-RPG related experience? ;)

Mark Bruno

[Jon H]

Shit, I just realised, this like the Fight Club thread, where aggressive young men can work out all their aggression and tension on one another...

I'll just let you get on with it...;)

[Tenacious B]

Originally posted by Jon H
Shit, I just realised, this like the Fight Club thread, where aggressive young men can work out all their aggression and tension on one another...

I'll just let you get on with it...;)

heh heh heh....naw, I'm quite finished... ;)

And what the hell? Who doesn't like the oppotrunity to talk about themselves once and awhile? :P

Mark Bruno

[Jon H]

You got a free advert! Its not often you can do that in your average street brawl. Thank goodness for cyberspace. I get much less blood and broken glass on my samples this way...;)

Right next bout please...;)

[Tenacious B]

It's how I approached the situation, Jon :)

And I agree, let's move on, shall we?

Mark Bruno

[Gareth-Michael Skarka]

Guys....I'm really surprised that none of you have noticed the fact that Faeryll is a new member (only 2 messages at the time of this writing, and both of them on this thread), and, oddly enough, uses <b>exactly the same syntax and style</b> as Gimgolas and "Mr. X"...

It's pretty obvious to me that we're dealing with the same guy.

He's not going to give up on this, obviously. Now, I guess we'll get another message from "Mr. X" telling us that Faeryll was also working for him.

However....there is a slim (and unlikely, in my opinion) possibility that I am mistaken here, which can be easily proven. Faeryll, you claim that you've written a bunch of published stuff. Give us a run-down of some of your credits. That would be the best way to prove who you are.

I suspect you won't, however, which would sort of confirm my point.

GMS

[Jon H]

Quick! Get him, just in case you're right, Gareth!!!! ( I think I misspelled your name earlier which was very rude. I was having a heated moment...)

Now cyberspace shows up its awkward side - when a geezer turns up to a pub fight in a balaclava, you know something dodgy is going on...

When I suggested he re-register and try again, this wasn't quite what I meant...

If it is the case that its the same guy it's getting pretty funny....:)

There's a bit in a certain oft quoted Python film that this reminds me of.

Ah well, near tragedy has become farce;)

[Faeryll]

I can assure you that I have no connection to the mysterious Mr. X and his lackey, I am just a concerned citizen trying to find out why the vaunted of the RPG world put so much stock in grammatics on a message board. As for my being new, I was turned onto the boards by a friend who patrols them and thought I would get into the action.

I never said I have "a bunch" of published works, I just said that I have been published. I am not stupid, I am not going to put down the names so that you can go through the pieces and pick them apart like you did with Grimgolas' posts. If you don't believe me, that is fine. If you are disappointed, get used to it. If you want to take everyone's opinion and turn it into a personal flame war, that is your perogative, but I think some people have better things to do in life.

If you want purely technical writiers for your RPGs, by all means go for it. I think that you would benefit more from a creative person who makes a few mistakes here and there. If you don't like the opinion fine, but don't try and berate me as a person for having an opinion.

[Jon H]

You are sooooo Gimgolas.

[Faeryll]

Am not.

[Jon H]

Ha ha ha:)

[Tenacious B]

I never said I have "a bunch" of published works, I just said that I have been published. I am not stupid, I am not going to put down the names so that you can go through the pieces and pick them apart like you did with Grimgolas' posts. If you don't believe me, that is fine. If you are disappointed, get used to it. If you want to take everyone's opinion and turn it into a personal flame war, that is your perogative, but I think some people have better things to do in life.

Hmmm...well, I wasn't trying to berate or flame you, and I certainly wouldn't "hunt down" your published pieces and try to find the mistakes because, like you said, some people do have better things to do in life :) You just seemed to make it a point in your argument and I was asking for more elaboration, as I think Gareth was, too. <shrug>.

If you want purely technical writiers for your RPGs, by all means go for it. I think that you would benefit more from a creative person who makes a few mistakes here and there. If you don't like the opinion fine, but don't try and berate me as a person for having an opinion.

Now you've missed the point; I didn't say that writers need to forego the creative process in order to ensure their writing is technically viable. I meant that it shouldn't be overlooked, that attention to grammar and punctuation should be just as important as the creative process.

And making a few mistakes is all part of human nature...I defy anyone to catch all editorial typos before something goes to print. I was simply reacting to your statements, which suggested that grammar is not an issue at all because, in your words, "that's what editors are for."

I'm sorry if you took offense, it wasn't my intention. In any case, it's apparently a moot point, so good luck to you in the future.

Mark Bruno

[NPC Mythlander]

I love this thread! It’s like watching a car wreck: you can’t take your eyes off of it. ;) More, more! <goes to get popcorn and a coke>

For the record I think it’s the return of ChapinoMuse after taking some grammar classes. Gawd, I couldn’t stand that prick. :D

Oh, BTW, my opinion on people that ask “how do I break into this industry” of one of, “if you had to ask you shouldn’t bother.” Getting printed in the RPG industry is laughably easy. One part common sense, two parts willingness and drive, one part professionalism with a dash of talent is all it takes. Apparently this guy lacks most of the necessary ingredients.

- Mythlander

[Faeryll]

Well, I did not mean to say that it was completely up to the editor to find grammatical mistakes. I realize that the writer should have some knowledge of correct syntax and spelling. If it came across that I meant a person could toss off a completely intangible work and expect the editor to clean it up to publication status, then I appologize. I was out late drinking Jamesons and Guinness to wash down a nice lamb stew.

I agree that the point is moot as feelings will differ. I view your opinion as a valid one, especially coming from an editor's point of view. I am glad you don't wish to hunt me down, I hate those villagers and their torches.

[Tenacious B]

Originally posted by NPC Mythlander
Oh, BTW, my opinion on people that ask “how do I break into this industry” of one of, “if you had to ask you shouldn’t bother.” Getting printed in the RPG industry is laughably easy. One part common sense, two parts willingness and drive, one part professionalism with a dash of talent is all it takes. Apparently this guy lacks most of the necessary ingredients.

- Mythlander

That's a good point, Mythlander. It is relatively easy to break into the RPG industry, and with the advent of d20 that's even more the case. But still, it never hurts to get an opinion and some advice from those already established.

The most important piece of advice, though, is to read a publisher's submission guidelines, and as someone already mentioned, get to know the product you're writing for before you set about drafting an MS or a proposal.

Mark Bruno

[Faeryll]

Originally posted by Mark Bruno

The most important piece of advice, though, is to read a publisher's submission guidelines, and as someone already mentioned, get to know the product you're writing for before you set about drafting an MS or a proposal.

sarcasm
I have to disagree, I think that knowing nothing of the product you are writing for should be a requirement. I mean, why should you have any knowledge of a product in order to submit a piece? Seems kind of silly to me. :D
/sarcasm

Not making fun of Mr. Bruno, just wanted to keep the thread going because I am bored at work.

[NPC Mythlander]

Originally posted by Mark Bruno
The most important piece of advice, though, is to read a publisher's submission guidelines, and as someone already mentioned, get to know the product you're writing for before you set about drafting an MS or a proposal.
I throw that under my earlier comment of common sense and professionalism. This is a no-brainer. Do you want into a company and apply for a job not knowing what their core business is? Do you pitch an article on the decline of the African Hedgehog to the editor of Monster Truck Magazine? :D

[Begin mini-rant!]

No one serious about ‘breaking into the industry’ should come here asking for this type of advice. It’s so damn obvious it hurts!

If someone is seriously reading this thread for hints or advice on how to break into the RPG industry you should give up, turn off your computer, and go back to reading a good book or something. Writers have to be self-motivated, and part of that is going out an making contacts and peddling your skills in a professional manner. (E-mail or physical cover letter? You make the call. :))

Read the submission guidelines? Well, duh! :D If someone needs to be told that then they’re too stupid to be writing anyhow! Be familiar with the system? Do ya think? ;)

Sorry, but writing in the RPG industry needs a good dose of natural selection, not hand-holding of wannabe’s that want to get their list of twenty “cool” feats printed in some D20 rag.

[End mini-rant]

BTW, this wasn’t directed at you, Mark. You’re comment just kind of set me off. :)

- Mythlander

[NPC Mythlander]

Originally posted by NPC Mythlander
BTW, this wasn’t directed at you, Mark. You’re comment just kind of set me off. :)
Further proof that I must register in order to edit out these silly mistakes. LOL! ;)

- Mythlander

[Faeryll]

Originally posted by NPC Mythlander

Further proof that I must register in order to edit out these silly mistakes. LOL! ;)

Don't register, when you do they take a little piece of your soul.

[Gareth-Michael Skarka]

Originally posted by Faeryll
I never said I have "a bunch" of published works, I just said that I have been published. I am not stupid, I am not going to put down the names so that you can go through the pieces and pick them apart like you did with Grimgolas' posts.

You flatter yourself.

Why would I bother to track them down and pick them apart? Especially given the fact that IF they were published (and I'm not saying I believe you...far from it), then they would have gone through an editor already.

Put up or shut up. If you claim that you're published, then either tell us in what, or just give your name. It's pretty simple to track down published credits in this industry.

If you don't want people to see what you've had published, then don't make claims that you have been. It's pretty fucking simple, isn't it?

GMS

[Faeryll]

Why should I have to prove anything to a whiney little bitch like yourself? I could care less if you believe that I am published or not. I find no reason that I need to validate myself to a nobody like yourself. You may be an "arrogant game designer" to everyone here, but you are a nobody to me. If you feel the need to think that I am a phony and you can sleep better at night and your pitiful little lonely world is brighter because if it, then by all means do so.

[Gareth-Michael Skarka]

Originally posted by Faeryll
I could care less if you believe that I am published or not. I find no reason that I need to validate myself to a nobody like yourself.

Then why mention it at all? You're the one who brought it up...

Whatever. I'm done. See ya around, Jeremy.

GMS, a nobody (....with 8 years of published credits, 4 commercially available RPGs, a couple of dozen contributing works, and an Origins Award nomination).

[Jon H]

You reckon we could/should close this thread now? I'm done posting here. I would have liked to see some kind of meaningful resolution, but it ain't going to happen.

[Mythlander]

Awwwa, man! I registered just for this thread! :D

Come on! More, more, more! ;)

[Faeryll]

I got meaningful resolution out of the whole thread, I got Gareth to say he was done with it. He was such a nice boy too, always treated people with respect and had something positive to say about everyone he came in contact with. I will miss him. I hold Gareth no ill will, I just don't appreciate people whose only contribution to a discussion is to flame.

I believe we had finished with stating that one should know the material before even attempting to submit a proposal. Now with your statement about natural selection of writers inside the business of RPGs, do you mean that the talent pool out there already is diluted? That only established writers should be brought on board or even considered as candidates? I understand that you don't want any Joe Smith off the street writing for you, but everyone has to get a start somewhere. Can you elaborate? Or am I just farting out the wrong end?

[Stormprince]

Personally, I'm thankful for just how many different opportunities I've been discovering these last few months, since my decision to enter the realm of freelance RPG writing.

I've found that quite a few people are more than willing to provide constructive advice, as long as it's approached properly *chuckles* As far as the gaming industry is concerned, when it comes to writing, I'm a Rank Newcomer, and as such, I do have to prove not only that I am creative, but that I can write with enough skill to set myself out from the other freelancers out there.

Let's face it... the writing industry, just as most other industries, is HIGHLY competitive - there are quite a few people out there who want to enter the field. You have to set yourself apart from the others to be noticed.

When you submit your work to a company, odds are, you are not the only person submitting. If it comes down to a choice - they can only publish one idea at a time - they're most likely to select a manuscript that contains both creativity and the fewer number of formatting errors (spelling mistakes, grammatic misusage, problematic issues with compliance) than one with only pure creativity.

You have to be competitive. You have to set yourself apart from the pack of other freelancers. You have to show them that not only can you write creatively, but write engagingly... and if you have a manuscript filled with mistakes, you open yourself up to a discourse on what you need to do to improve - as you can tell by some of the comments here.

PS - Brief notes to the other regular posters
* Jon H, keep the light burning, man. People need to hear friendly voices.
* GMS, dude... if I ever want a harsh, but honest, critique of my work, don't be surprised if I come a knocking!
* Mythlander, welcome to the wackiness of being a Member ;)
* Storn, great suggestions! Trying to implement a few of them myself ;)
* Kabael and Laurel, same comment as Storn, thanks for the advice... I do appreciate it! :)
* Misguided, your advice contradicts your nickname... no misguiding going on there!
* Gimlet (Mmmm, vodka!) and Mister X, sorry dudes, you both have been relegated to the realm of Make Believe, along with Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy... try not to piss them off!
* Axelos, great analytical skill - gotta love a rousing debate... wonder if you were ever in one of the Debate Competitions I used to attend.
* Mark Bruno, Matt Drake, Adam and everyone else who joined in after Mr. X - just hope everyone had some good laughs over this!

Okay, that's it for now ;) Off to see what other chaos I can involve myself in!

EDIT - Forgot someone....

Faeryll - I got meaningful resolution out of the whole thread... Sybill'd like her schtick back... multiple personalities can be treated with the proper therapy. :)

[Faeryll]

I like puddin'

[Misguided]

Originally posted by Stormprince
I'm a Rank Newcomer, and as such, I do have to prove not only that I am creative, but that I can write with enough skill to set myself out from the other freelancers out there.



Nothing wrong with that. That makes two of us. :p Glad it is working out for you so far. I know a lot of people have said they started out doing FREElance work, such as game reviews or articles for webzines. There are lots of places to get your start these days.

It is tough to make a livng though, I would guess, as a freelancer. One because of a lack of steady work...Two, because the game industry pays so little. This is getting at what Ryan Dancey was talking about in a different thread. There are good freelancers who like doing games. Because they like doing games, they settle for less money. This deflates the market and perpetuates the cycle.

[Stormprince]

*chuckles and nods emphatically*

Right now, I'm in a weird life situation, which has required quite a bit of regular moving about, making it difficult for me to hold a steady job. Actually, one of the very things that kick-started me into pursuing freelance writing, not only because I enjoy it, but also because it's something I can do any where, at any time.

It's still not really that lucurative a job, yet, but it's slowly getting there, thanks in part to the fact that I'm going out of my way to find as many different opportunities to write as possible :) So far, I've been getting really lucky, I'm entering the field at a time when there are plenty of opportunities available, which will help to establish 'street creds' as time moves on.

[Misguided]

I'd urge caution. While I imagaine there are lots of opportunities, the next year could be very rough on a lot of d20 publishers in particular and the whole market in general. If it were me (which it isn't) I'd be careful about who I got involved with and what the terms were. Aside from getting paid for the work, I'd want to be as sure as I could that the work would see print, but I honestly don't know how you guys go about doing that anyway.

I know what you mean though, re: mobility. I work Misguided Games from an office in my home, so could do it theoretically anywhere. Our head writer just moved cross country. Our editor and graphic designer are 18 time zones away. We have contracted work from Canada, Britain, Malta, and here in the US. One of those folks has relocated to Scandinavia, and another was in Japan for awhile. the internet is so great for stuff like this, and it gives you access to this incredibly massive pool of talent to draw from, and just people to hang out with and learn from too.

[Stormprince]

Well, I'm trying to be as 'intelligent' as possible about what I'm doing.

Two of my d20 adventures are coming out in the next two months, which is huge for me, but I'm cynical enough to believe it only when I'm holding them in my grubby little hands. With this particular company, at least they pay me an advance, and if they ever go bankrupt or out of business, the rights to what I wrote will revert back to me. Major bonus there!

To be honest, that company was one of my biggest gambles. Luckily, I've got a few other publishing credits I can fall back on, but a future article in a gaming magazine, doing game reviews, writing poetry and writing a column for a school news paper aren't going to take me too far.

Got to take some risks and just hope I don't crash and burn :)

[Misguided]

Sounds pretty good. Can you tell us what products they are in, yet? If not, make sure and let us know when they hit shelves.

[Stormprince]

Oooo, that's right, leave me a perfect opening opportunity to brag... okay, I'll give in *snickers* I'm easy.

Song of Storms (http://www.monkeygodenterprises.com/storm.html) - from Monkey God Enterprises, due out sometime in early March.
Edge of Dreams - same company, but they haven't posted the write-up for it yet, due in early April.

An article entitled 'Wizard's Toy Box - Part One' in an unspecified forthcoming Dragon Magazine. Already working on the follow-up to (a BUNCH of magical toys... god, I'm such a child at heart sometimes! :D)

I also think I have some monsters included in the Sovereign Stone 'Bestiary of Loerem' due out in May, but once again, I'm waiting for the proof before I go wild with that one. *chuckles*

I've got some other things in the work, but nothing concrete enough to brag about, so I'll just wander off now and check out what else I can stick my nose into!

[Mythlander]

Originally posted by Faeryll
I believe we had finished with stating that one should know the material before even attempting to submit a proposal.
Yes, we stated the obvious. :D
Now with your statement about natural selection of writers inside the business of RPGs, do you mean that the talent pool out there already is diluted?
Drat! You’re going to force me to be serious for a moment! Arrrgh! ;)

Keep in mind that this is only my opinion, but yes, I think there is far too much sub-standard material out there being written by unqualified writers who are nothing more than Joe Gamer. The whole D20 craze has sprung up something like 80+ small publishing houses which many amount to nothing more than two guys, a computer with a copy of Pagemaker, “and a dream” doing D20 products alone. It’s vanity press from the Dark Side. :D

Yes, there are some gems out there but you’ve got to wade through a lot of muck to find it.
That only established writers should be brought on board or even considered as candidates?
No, I certainly didn’t say that. Don’t be obtuse. ;) What I said was that I wouldn’t mind publishers, developers, and editors being a bit more selective in their choices, ergo my comment on “natural selection:” the strong—the good—survive.

I don’t believe in hand-holding Joe Wannabe to get into this industry if Joe doesn’t have a) the intelligence or common sense or b) the self-motivation to go out and get himself a writing job. It’s not that hard. The standards are pretty low, as is the pay. Put together some material. Draft a cover letter. Contact your favorite publisher. Follow-up in 2-3 weeks with a courtesy letter and/or phone call. Wash and repeat as necessary.

It’s not like there’s a secret handshake to write for the RPG industry. You do the same thing you’d do to obtain a writing assignment with any other magazine, trade publication, or newspaper. A small decorum of professionalism (and common sense) is all that’s required.
I understand that you don't want any Joe Smith off the street writing for you, but everyone has to get a start somewhere.
You’re right, they do. I’m not saying make it impossible, but enough coddling already. Giving guidance to someone whose prose could use a little work is one thing; making a checklist of “how to make it” is just bending over for the lowest common denominator. If they can’t figure out for themselves how to professionally conduct themselves and approach a publisher about a prospective job assignment then how well do you think they write? What does that say about their maturity level?

Send ‘em over to Sword & Sorcery to mail in their fanfic and collect $20 for their feats.

In essence, “raise the bar!” :D

[Mythlander]

Originally posted by Stormprince
Personally, I'm thankful for just how many different opportunities I've been discovering these last few months, since my decision to enter the realm of freelance RPG writing.
Opportunities abound if you have the ability. Developers are eager for dependable writers that will write what they need.
Let's face it... the writing industry, just as most other industries, is HIGHLY competitive - there are quite a few people out there who want to enter the field.
Competitive? Yes.

Difficult to gain entry to or distinguish oneself? No.

After a few credits are under your belt, some contacts, provided you’re dependable and professional, then they start calling you for work.

It sounds like you’re on the right track, Stormprince. I’m curious, just to put this conversation in perspective, how did you break into the industry? Did someone have to hold your hand and show you the way or did you decide to do it and make it happen? How many times did you fail and fall down, learning something new, and then get back up and do it better the next time?

[Stormprince]

I’m curious, just to put this conversation in perspective, how did you break into the industry? Did someone have to hold your hand and show you the way or did you decide to do it and make it happen? How many times did you fail and fall down, learning something new, and then get back up and do it better the next time?

*chuckles* Mine's actually a very curious story...

When I moved to New Orleans a little over a year and a half ago, I moved in with a friend of mine and her boyfriend. Her boyfriend had just gotten a game published because an company found it on his website (the exact details of how they found it are a bit unclear to me), and purchased the rights to it. I thought that was pretty cool, but didn't really get any further along on my road to getting published.

Then I moved to Atlanta, where not one, but TWO of my friends there got hired for various positions in the gaming community - one on merit (and because he knew people), and the other because he was friends with the first, who put in a good word for him with another company.

I was furious! I don't begrudge anyone becoming successful, or seeing them fulfill their dreams, but when I see someone get hired only because he's someone's 'friend', and I KNOW I'm a better writer, and more creative (granted, my personal opinions, which are probably biased in my favor), it galvanized me to get off my lazy arse, and really strive and take my writing seriously.

I began hunting through just about every company I could find on the web, looking for those who were open to freelancers. When I found one, I emailed them with a resume as well as to get a general 'feel' for them, as well as asking exactly what they required from me: Did they want to see a few writing samples? What, exactly, were they looking for in a freelancer?

When I got the answers I desired, and could live with them, I submitted some proposals (quite a few, actually... figured that it would be better for me to submit 10 different proposals, to really find out just what they were looking for, developmentally), and once they made their choices on which ones they wanted to see, I got down to the serious business of writing my arse off. I spent as much time writing and focusing on the project as humanly possible, going over it time and time again from every conceivable angle, asking myself 'Would I buy this?', 'What's missing?', 'Is this really needed?', and when I was finally satisfied with my answers, I sent them the manuscript.

Now, a few months later, I've completed a second manuscript, working on two others and have been asked to write a sourcebook. :)

However, I'm not content to rest on my 'laurels'. There's still quite a bit I want to do, and because of the winnowing of d20 companies, I'm not taking anything for granted, so I'm constantly looking for new opportunities, for new projects.

I like staying busy, I enjoy writing and creating worlds, and I plan on doing this for the rest of my life. It's more than just a passing fancy, or a part-time job, it's my way of expressing myself, getting a sincere enjoyment out of how people respond to my work, it's what I love doing more than almost anything else in this world. :D

[/gush off]

[Stormprince]

...and the other because he was friends with the first, who put in a good word for him with another company.

Just to clarify this one, real quick, this particular friend had no real print experience. He was a Navy Journalist, however, he focused on Radio/Television broadcasting, and as far as I am aware, besides a brief course he attended in his 'A' School, never worked in the medium. He's not a writer, never expressed any true interest in writing, and yet, he was hired and paid a fairly nice 'expenses' package to quit his Tech Assitant job with a computer company, to go and work in the gaming industry.

Personally, I was happy for him, as much as I was jealous... I was more furious with myself, because I wanted to be a writer, but had done nothing to actually become published within the field.

[Faeryll]

Originally posted by Mythlander
Keep in mind that this is only my opinion, but yes, I think there is far too much sub-standard material out there being written by unqualified writers who are nothing more than Joe Gamer. The whole D20 craze has sprung up something like 80+ small publishing houses which many amount to nothing more than two guys, a computer with a copy of Pagemaker, “and a dream” doing D20 products alone. It’s vanity press from the Dark Side.
So, like the dotcoms of a few years ago, you think that business will boom for a while and then come crashing down like the Zepplin? Too many cooks spoil the broth? I believe in variety, but true most are sticking with the same design and not revolutionizing anything. I wish people would work more towards an original system than try to work within something that is already established.

No, I certainly didn’t say that. Don’t be obtuse.
But I am so good at it.

You’re right, they do. I’m not saying make it impossible, but enough coddling already. Giving guidance to someone whose prose could use a little work is one thing; making a checklist of “how to make it” is just bending over for the lowest common denominator. If they can’t figure out for themselves how to professionally conduct themselves and approach a publisher about a prospective job assignment then how well do you think they write? What does that say about their maturity level?
I agree, holding someone's hand is not really the answer to the problem. I think that guidance should be given to those that seek it. There has to be some way of weeding out those that are awful from those who truly have a talent. Someone in the industry just has to figure out how. I believe that this attitude of strict elitism is going to be the downfall of alot of smaller publishers. I hope that isn't the case, but if you start trying to weed too much you can kill the prettiest flowers too. If it is maturity you are looking for, then a lot of the people I have seen around here slipped through the cracks along the way. :)

[budman]

In an interesting historical foot note the man (I will not say his name) in question tried to start up an rpg magazine as a partner/investor and did no work or put up any cash.

The rpg magazine folded thereafter.
Those in the know know what one I mean, a d20 pdf one. ;)

He is the biggest walter mitty in the rpg industry and that is saying something.


mark

[joeymartin]

Wow.

That's my first impression of this thread. Proof that history can be ugly. :)

Joey

[Socar MYLES]

Holy gravedigging, Batman! THIS THREAD HAS WHISKERS ON!

[Snowblind]

This thread is freakin' coated in gold.

[Durin's Bane]

This thread reminds of that scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark, where the French guy goes, "It's beautiful!", right before all the ghosts turn nasty and melt the bad guys' flesh.

Why?

I may never know.

[Simulacrum]

This thread reminds of that scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark, where the French guy goes, "It's beautiful!", right before all the ghosts turn nasty and melt the bad guys' flesh.

Why?

I may never know.


Don't you have a plane to catch DB?

-PoMo Drs

[Durin's Bane]

Don't you have a plane to catch DB?

-PoMo Drs
Crap, you're right! My solid platinum Rolex confirms it! I must quickly throw on a custom-tailored Armani suit, dive into my Lamborghini Diablo, put my Guccis to the metal and fly off into the sunset in my very own Space Shuttle!

I also have a seraglio! Stop by sometime and I'll introduce you to my hundreds of loyal concubines! And then have you beat up by security!

I'm succesful!

[Jim Bob]

Sometimes, I thank God for thread necromancy. It's a beautiful thing.

All I have to say is, what the fuck is "grammatics"? I think I missed that at school.

[budman]

Holy gravedigging, Batman!!

LOL

[FraserRonald]

Sometimes, I thank God for thread necromancy. It's a beautiful thing.

All I have to say is, what the fuck is "grammatics"? I think I missed that at school.

I have to agree. I went back and read most of the way through. It was just insane. I was laughing my nether regions off (and then I had to go and get some glue to put them back on!).

As for grammatics, that was half the fun. It'd be like someone talking about getting a job as an advocate for an environmental group and going on about how he shouldn't need to know anything about "environmentonics." :D

Pure. Comedy. Gold.

[Ignatz]

Didn't pay much attention at first... then I started really reading... couldn't put it down. :eek: Holeee ****ing **** on toast with ***!!

I almost expected him to start typing with a bad accent...

"No senor, as you can see from zee beeg moustache and sombrero, I am south of ze border... I am not Meestor X. Though he is plainly a genius... you should all get off heez back. I am really truly a Mexican superhero."

(shakes head in sad disbelief)

Oh well... at least Jon H is still a class act!

[Jennifer]

This is the first time I've seen this thread.

I was moving along fine until the Mr. X-thing hit. What great fun. . .

[Embra]

This forum needs a 'History File' for great threads like this. Can you give a thread an Origins award?

[Matthew]

Sometimes, I thank God for thread necromancy. It's a beautiful thing.



Someone needs to archive this and the the Universe thread and the Using Word As A Layout Program thread.

Seriously, they're invaluable to new people.

[Matthew]

Here's the UNiverse one;

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54746