[Movie]: Underworld, reviewed by Alex deMorris (4/3) [Archive]

RPGnet Reviews

09-22-2003, 10:53 AM

Post originally by Skinner's Pigeon at 2003-09-22 10:53:52
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That's one thing that made absolutely no sense to me: at the end, the panning shot in the vampire Throne Room shows the dead lycan's blood seeping down and awakening Marcus. That's acceptable, but then Marcus' shrivelly eyes pop open and immediately turn jet black--just like Corwin's abomination eyes. Everyone else's eyes, vamp and lycan, turn baby blue when they're in Nasty Mode. So:

Does this mean that Marcus is an abomination? Why would it be that simple? Doesn't he need Corwin's blood? Or had they simply never tried it before, because of silly vampiric rules? And what the hell is going to happen when the only surviving vamp elder is that which they despise?

Damn plot holes! Oh well, I'm sure Selene will whup his ass with nary a mussed hair either way. She can sure slap around the world's most badass vamp easily enough.

Yet she runs like a schoogirl from lycans that her daddy could kill with one hand...

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09-22-2003, 11:02 AM

Post originally by CaedesUK at 2003-09-22 11:02:51
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Marcus was stated to be of the Corvinus bloodline. This was stated by Viktor when interrogating the Werewolf captured by Selene. (The dead guy who's blood woke Marcus up in the first place.)

I'm assuming that Viktor and his original daughter must have also been of the bloodline for her to have been pregnant with an abomination from her Groom Lucian.

It strikes me that either there is a very rich backstory that got left- out/ignored/edited out or the writers had no idea what they were doing.

I felt that this film ripped a lot of Blade 2 off as much as Vampire: The Masquerade.

It will be interesting to see if there will be a sequel.

Trevor.

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09-22-2003, 01:56 PM

Post originally by urbwar at 2003-09-22 13:56:05
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Tim Gray wrote:
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No, they used her blood for *Lucian's* transformation. Nothing was said about whether the lycans wanted to transform Michael, but one would assume Lucian didn't want the competition. Shame the transformation didn't take on him.
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That wasn't the impression that I got. They needed someone of Corvinus's bloodline who was a "carrier" (at least that's what I thought they said), who then could turn into a hybrid. Otherwise, why did they need Michael? If all you needed was an elder vampire's blood to turn, then Michael really didn't matter much, did he?

Not saying that's what the actual plan was, but that was the impression I got when I watched it (especially since it looked like Lucien was going to inject Michael prior to Kraven's actions)

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09-22-2003, 01:57 PM

Post originally by urbwar at 2003-09-22 13:57:34
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CaedesUK wrote:
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I'm assuming that Viktor and his original daughter must have also been of the bloodline for her to have been pregnant with an abomination from her Groom Lucian.
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I don't think so. Viktor specificially pointed out that Marcus was of Corvinus' bloodline. If he was also of the bloodline, wouldn't he have said so?

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09-22-2003, 02:50 PM

Post originally by Samhaine at 2003-09-22 14:50:47
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Lucien injected himself with Michael's blood when he was strapped to the table near the end. However, he was still waiting for the guy with Amelia's blood, presumably to inject himself with (apparently having Michael's blood in his system would allow him to become a hybrid). Then he got shot up by Kraven before he could get ahold of the elder blood.

The whole bit with Marcus transforming at the end didn't make sense to me, though. In all his years he's never tasted werewolf blood? Further, in such a nice, pristine vampire mansion, nobody bothered to clean up the giant pool of blood?

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09-22-2003, 03:41 PM

Post originally by Rebarbative at 2003-09-22 15:41:03
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Samhaine wrote:
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The whole bit with Marcus transforming at the end didn't make sense to me, though. In all his years he's never tasted werewolf blood? Further, in such a nice, pristine vampire mansion, nobody bothered to clean up the giant pool of blood?

I got the feeling that Marcus was tasting werewolf blood from the dead guy on the floor. Could be wrong, though!

Also, the fact that the werewolves had Amelia's blood and was about to turn their leader into some sort of super-undead might have taken their mind off the pool? Wouldn't YOU send out all your troops to something like that?

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09-23-2003, 12:24 AM

Post originally by Mant at 2003-09-23 00:24:22
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That wasn't the impression that I got. They needed someone of Corvinus's bloodline who was a "carrier" (at least that's what I thought they said), who then could turn into a hybrid. Otherwise, why did they need Michael? If all you needed was an elder vampire's blood to turn, then Michael really didn't matter much, did he?

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Someone of Corvius' human descent should have the 'pure' virus, that let's the other two combine safely.

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Not saying that's what the actual plan was, but that was the impression I got when I watched it (especially since it looked like Lucien was going to inject Michael prior to Kraven's actions)

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Lucien takes blood from Michael. He isn't planning on turning Michael, he is going to use Michael's blood, and the vampire Elder's blood to turn himself.

Matn

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09-23-2003, 12:26 AM

Post originally by Mant at 2003-09-23 00:26:59
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The whole bit with Marcus transforming at the end didn't make sense to me, though. In all his years he's never tasted werewolf blood?

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Why would he? The vampires beleive mixing the strains will kill you, Selene says nobody has survived both. Presumably tasting werewolf blood would be the last thing they would do, it would be fatal to them (and vampire blood fatal to lycans).

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Further, in such a nice, pristine vampire mansion, nobody bothered to clean up the giant pool of blood?

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To be fair, they were a bit busy.

Mant

RPGnet Reviews

09-23-2003, 12:30 AM

Post originally by Mant at 2003-09-23 00:30:03
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I'm assuming that Viktor and his original daughter must have also been of the bloodline for her to have been pregnant with an abomination from her Groom Lucian.

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Well, we know nobdy had survived a bit from both. A baby may be a different matter. It might not even have been an abomination, it's not like anyone could tell at that point. Viktor may have just killed her becuase such things were forbbiden, he seemed very big on following the rules.

Or the writers may just not have thought about it that much :)

Mant

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09-23-2003, 04:03 AM

Post originally by Samhaine at 2003-09-23 04:03:51
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<<Why would he? The vampires beleive mixing the strains will kill you, Selene says nobody has survived both. Presumably tasting werewolf blood would be the last thing they would do, it would be fatal to them (and vampire blood fatal to lycans).>>

See, I would believe that, save that it showed extended scenes on the train of Lycans consuming vampire bits in massive amounts. It's just hard to believe that two "natural enemy" species could completely avoid using their natural weapons fighting one another over the centuries, especially when one group is shown eating the fallen.

Really, viral undeadness just brings up a whole lot of logical problems that weren't *quite* dealt with as well as they should have been in the movie.

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09-23-2003, 07:55 AM

Post originally by GameWiz at 2003-09-23 07:55:05
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>Damn plot holes! Oh well, I'm sure Selene will whup his ass with nary a mussed hair either way. She can sure slap around the world's most badass vamp easily enough.

Speaking of plot holes, anyone else notice how, other than Viktor and Selene, the Vampire 'Death Dealers' were getting their asses handed to them by the lycans, especially in melee. (opening subway scene, Amelia's train, in the sewers) And the Vamps were supposedly have hunted them into near extinction! How did they manage that before automatic weaponry, which they seemed so found of.

And, for an Elder, Amelia must have been a wuss, as she did not put up much of a fight against the lycans. While Viktor was mentioned as the most powerful, the other Elders should have been badasses as well.

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09-23-2003, 08:14 AM

Post originally by Tim Gray at 2003-09-23 08:14:21
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You know, I didn't pick up on this at all!

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09-23-2003, 09:47 AM

Post originally by Mant at 2003-09-23 09:47:20
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See, I would believe that, save that it showed extended scenes on the train of Lycans consuming vampire bits in massive amounts. It's just hard to believe that two "natural enemy" species could completely avoid using their natural weapons fighting one another over the centuries, especially when one group is shown eating the fallen.

------------------------------------------

Good point. The lycans seems quite happy to munch down on the vampires, I'd forgotten that.

Vamp teeth don't really seem to be weapons of war in the same way. I imagine guns, and earlier swords where much more their thing. I could still beleive Marcus had never bitten a lycan.

Mant

RPGnet Reviews

09-23-2003, 12:14 PM

Post originally by Edwyn at 2003-09-23 12:14:11
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Well, Lycans don't absorb pure blood into their organs and blood stream. They just eat dead flesh, kinda like AAA beef.

Vamps drink blood for a different purpose, since their digestive systems aren't "normal" anymore.

In regards to Marcus going all black-eyed, well, I kinda liked the irony that the one guy in charge of searching for the Corvinus bloodline (the mad herr-dokter), actually had the bloodline in himself. LIkely, he knew that, and didn't tell Lucien, since they would have made him the next guinea pig.

And don't forget, the whole idea that the Lycans were on the verge of extinction was a LIE. It was propogated by Lucien and Craven so they could keep everyone distracted while they heretically searched for the Corvinus bloodline.

I would venture that some of the ventured "plot hole" accusations on this forum have holes themselves.

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09-23-2003, 12:32 PM

Post originally by Rob D at 2003-09-23 12:32:19
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So do you think that there is anything in the WW vs UW legal case? WW claim to have found 60 points of similarity between their World of Darkness and the UW plot. I do think that there are some interesting similarities...

"Abomination" is a werewolf/vampire hybrid in both

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09-23-2003, 01:13 PM

Post originally by Nahualt at 2003-09-23 13:13:56
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yeah and most similarities are the same ones with any Anne Rice novel...
the question is Should Anne Rice sue WW and Underworld?

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09-23-2003, 01:58 PM

Post originally by Johnny McKenna at 2003-09-23 13:58:34
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If you've read that legal brief, White Wolf's 60 points of contention range from probably valid to entirely ludicrous (like claiming that they have some kind of copyright on basic vampire and werewolf lore, like vulnerability to sunlight and silver respectively). Having seen the film itself, I'd say that Anne Rice and Laurel K. Hamilton have much more to be angry about than White Wolf. White Wolf's real arguments stem from a 1994 tie-in novel and the fact that they believe Selene (from UK) to be a rip-off of Lucita, one of their iconic characters. They're also resentful that the UW videogame tie-in has the same subtitle and game engine (from the same studio) as their second Vampire videogame.

Of course, Sony will find some spare change in its couch, release its army of lawyers, and the whole thing will be done with quickly.

I see the film as being inspired by WoD, but not really ripping it off. I can't speak for the book and character arguments, as I avoid game fiction like the plague. As for the abomination argument, from the one time in the film I remember hearing it, it was spoken as more of a curse word than an actual designation, but I could've missed something admist all the screaming soundtracks.

--JKM

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09-23-2003, 02:00 PM

Post originally by Johnny McKenna at 2003-09-23 14:00:27
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I guess I never thought of it that way. I think some of us were so desperate to find plot holes, we ended up making them. Don't get me wrong, there are still plenty of little things, but your post makes a lot of plot stuff fall into place, as it were. Thanks.

--JKM

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09-23-2003, 02:17 PM

Post originally by JdRavnos at 2003-09-23 14:17:38
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Abomination is spoken twice in the film. Both by Viktor. First time is in reference to the idea of Lucian using Michael and Amelia's blood to become half and half. The second time he refers to Lucian and Viktor's daughter's unborn child as an "abomination growing in her womb".

Considering the vast number of words in the English language, it seems odd that they'll use the word more then once to refer to a vampire/werewolf hybrid considering White-Wolf uses the same term to describe their's. If it's coincidence then it shows lazy writing to use the same term. If it's not coincidence, then White-Wolf has a case. Either way it's for the courts to decide.

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09-23-2003, 02:40 PM

Post originally by Matt Clay at 2003-09-23 14:40:34
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Aside from the acting, which actually caused the audience to break out laughing at some points, here are the four major "oddities" that I found in the movie:

1) Kraven shoots Lucien. The big bad Lycan brings Lucien Amelia's blood, thinks that he's dead and drops Amelia's blood. Lucien regains consciousness and then what does he do? Does he inject himself with all the great blood lying two feet from him? No, he starts crawling all around, forgetting completely about becoming a hybrid and perhaps becoming strong enough to live.

2) After dropping Amelia's blood, the big bad Lycan runs off and looks for someone to kill. He finds Kraven and there's a nice fight scene involving whips! Now, at the end of this the Lycan fights off all the pain of the silver whips and walks right up to Kraven and presumably rips him to shreds. Well, until two scenes later when Kraven shows up, seemingly unharmed, with no comment about how he got away...

3) When Selene takes Michael to the interrogation room she runs over to a refregirator and takes out a packet of blood and throws it to Michael. Why? He's becoming a werewolf, not a vampire! He'd far prefer beef jerky to blood. Besides, he seems to be trying to resist his bestial nature and I seriously doubt he'd just take a big chug out of a blood bag. The only reason I can think of why they did this is to show that the vampires drink synthetic blood, not real people. Of course, the question of what they did before this invention isn't answered for another 45 minutes when Kraven says that they drank animal blood. Can someone please tell me the writers thought they were acomplishing with this exchange (other than giving Michael another much needed line)?

4) Where are these primative algae-fungas hybrids, the lichens, that the vampires keep refering to? Why don't they ever talk about these werewolves that they keep fighting? :)

Thanks,
Matt

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09-23-2003, 03:39 PM

Post originally by EZ at 2003-09-23 15:39:06
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White Wolf's litigious claim is based much more strongly on the novel "The Love of Monsters" than the setting of World of Darkness. I haven't read the novel, so I don't know. The werewolves seemed traditional enough, and the Vampires aren't too much different than Anne Rice predecesors.

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09-23-2003, 03:50 PM

Post originally by urbwar at 2003-09-23 15:50:07
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Matt Clay wrote:
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2) After dropping Amelia's blood, the big bad Lycan runs off and looks for someone to kill. He finds Kraven and there's a nice fight scene involving whips! Now, at the end of this the Lycan fights off all the pain of the silver whips and walks right up to Kraven and presumably rips him to shreds. Well, until two scenes later when Kraven shows up, seemingly unharmed, with no comment about how he got away...
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That wasn't Kraven that he attacked. It was Sorben (think that was his name), the head of Kraven's squad of goons. He was the one who stared off with Raze (the big Lycan) when Kraven and Lucien met in the car.

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09-23-2003, 06:46 PM

Post originally by Synncere at 2003-09-23 18:46:34
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There was one part of this movie I had a pretty big problem with...

*******SPOILER******************

The beginning of the movie pretty much establishes that Selene hates werewolves and has no qualms about killing them.

Then later we hear Selene explain why that is...she believes that they killed off her family and that she was saved by Victor and he turned her into a Vampire.

Then we hear Lucian's account of what happened. That apparently Victor killed off her family.

My problem is this.... She believed him. What reason could she have possibly had for taking him at his word?

One could also wonder how it was that he came by this information considering he was not in service to Victor when this happened.

Synncere,

PS: Just say "NO" to sunlight bullets.

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09-23-2003, 08:58 PM

Post originally by Kyle Voltti at 2003-09-23 20:58:18
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it wasn't Lucian who told her it was Victors undeling Craven who was telling her. He's been cleaning up for Victor so knew what he hda done

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09-23-2003, 09:51 PM

Post originally by Lepermint at 2003-09-23 21:51:03
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Just out of curiosity, what word would you have used?

Abomination has few synonyms, and none that sound natural or connote the sacrilegiousness Viktor obviously wanted to imply.

The movie is crap and the writing is as lazy as the acting, but I don't think you can fault them for using this word. It is not an unusual one, and it is not being used in an unusual context. Imagine for a moment that the movie featured two ethnic groups, instead of vampires and werewolves, at war. It would not sound the slightest bit out of place for the over-bearing patriarch to refer to his mixed-blood grandchild as an abomination.

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09-24-2003, 12:35 AM

Post originally by Mant at 2003-09-24 00:35:14
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In regards to Marcus going all black-eyed, well, I kinda liked the irony that the one guy in charge of searching for the Corvinus bloodline (the mad herr-dokter), actually had the bloodline in himself. LIkely, he knew that, and didn't tell Lucien, since they would have made him the next guinea pig.

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Eh? Where do you get the idea the doctor was Corvinus descent from?

Marcus was Corvinus descent, Viktor states it. It doesn't need the doctor to be.

Mant

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09-24-2003, 12:41 AM

Post originally by Mant at 2003-09-24 00:41:22
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Plus we know Selene never saw any Lycans. She heard the screaming, saw the bodies, then next thing she knew she was in Viktor's arms.

Kraven's story matches what she saw, and at that point she probably isn't thinking Viktor is such a swell guy anymore.

Mant

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09-24-2003, 12:50 AM

Post originally by Mant at 2003-09-24 00:50:00
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If you've read that legal brief, White Wolf's 60 points of contention range from probably valid to entirely ludicrous (like claiming that they have some kind of copyright on basic vampire and werewolf lore, like vulnerability to sunlight and silver respectively).

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I guess you were not following any of the threads in the main forum.

Pointing out a similarity is NOT them claiming copyright on that idea in the vampire or werewold mythos.

I don't know the strength of their case, but I'm getting a bit sick of seeing this crap. Saying, "Lycans are killed by silver bullets, and silver kills werewolves in Werewolf" is not, in the slightest, a claim that White Wolf has copyright on silver killing werewolves.

The point, as I understand, is that all the similarities TOGETHER make their case.

Having seen the film itself, I'd say that Anne Rice and Laurel K. Hamilton have much more to be angry about than White Wolf.

Do the Anita Blake novels predate Vampire? I always thought the vampires in that were very like Vampire, with the ruling council, different powers for vampires of different descent, master of the city, humans servants and all.

I can't see much vampire mythos from Hamilton's work in Underworld, certainly no more that WW. Less still for Rice, beyond the general influence on the modern vampire mythos.

White Wolf's real arguments stem from a 1994 tie-in novel and the fact that they believe Selene (from UK) to be a rip-off of Lucita, one of their iconic characters. They're also resentful that the UW videogame tie-in has the same subtitle and game engine (from the same studio) as their second Vampire videogame.

I thought the UW game was just a mod for the original Half-Life? Or is there going to be another, full blown game?

Mant

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09-24-2003, 09:07 AM

Post originally by Johnny McKenna at 2003-09-24 09:07:21
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From what I read in the legal brief, both the "Underworld" and "Vampire" games use the Half-Life engine, and both were developed with the same studio.

--JKM

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09-24-2003, 10:07 AM

Post originally by eruditus at 2003-09-24 10:07:01
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personaly I like the movie. It was an action film with a little more plot than to be expected. I think that going much farther than that you really start getting into action movie tropes (sp??) and the subjective niggling surrounding suspension of disbelief. I also thought it had one of the better lead ins to a sequel that we have seen for a while.

as for the law-suit - I also think its crap. I, who had followed WoD for years and have seen the film several times, feel that the suit is frivolous and WoD really only hopes that SONY execs freak and settle. If their lawyers were worth half their pay-checks, then they would fight to the end, win, and probably bury WW in the process (unless they have really good pro-bono lawyers).

there are two similarities that hold any weight, in my opinion:
- the abomination issue could be one if its capitalized in the script. Otherwise, using a word twice about a bad thing isn't enough to call on similarities.
- there is a concept for a genetic history among werewolves. This could be a problem for SONY since its not part of any werewolf lore or fiction prior to WW.

However, 2 out of sixty does not a compelling case make. And you can't say "oh, its all of them together" because SONY could EASILY convince and confuse a judge/jury to the facts on EVERY other point.

To be clear: The covens and vamp society has NOTHING to do with WW clan (making the references to ventrue and toreador in the lawsuit an outright lie)

The mythos for lycans and vamps in Underworld is largely unique, being a biological interpretation with no supernatural elements - the movie assumes that the disease that spawns from Corvius (causing immortality, strength, speed and were-transformations) is a fluke natural phenomena. Vamps have heartbeats. Bites are deadly. Transmission is through biting. No lieness at all to WW.

Even the love story is (as the reviewer mentions) insignificant. In fact, the suit claims Selene's sire, Vicktor is upset with her over her love of a werewolf like in the Sonja Blue novel, yet that is completely untrue. Her sire is upset that she has broken the rules and awoke him 100 years early. No one knows of any romance, much less the two main characters. The "love" her is light and not really developed at all - which I would have put as WW's strongest case if it were true.

I hope SONY does their homework and does not allow the issues to be blurred. Nothing here is uniquely WoD and as mentioned earlier, there is a host of vampire writers that emerged before WoD that could easily make some money if WW gets a dime.

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09-24-2003, 12:43 PM

Post originally by GameWiz at 2003-09-24 12:43:42
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>In regards to Marcus going all black-eyed, well, I kinda liked the irony that the one guy in charge of searching for the Corvinus bloodline (the mad herr-dokter), actually had the bloodline in himself. LIkely, he knew that, and didn't tell Lucien, since they would have made him the next guinea pig.

You are wrong about this point. The 'Herr Doktor' was not of corvinus bloodline, Marcus was. That is why he would turn into an abomination if he was infected with lycan blood.

Also, the lie was the Lucian was dead. The vampires didn't stop hunting them, because Lucian was dead.

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09-24-2003, 03:18 PM

Post originally by Justin Bacon at 2003-09-24 15:18:02
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Samhaine wrote:
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See, I would believe that, save that it showed extended scenes on the train of Lycans consuming vampire bits in massive amounts. It's just hard to believe that two "natural enemy" species could completely avoid using their natural weapons fighting one another over the centuries, especially when one group is shown eating the fallen.
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The important thing here appears to be that it is the BITE, not the transferral of blood, which passes the disease.

Thus, the lycans can chow down on vampires. And vampires can suck up werewolf blood. But this doesn't trigger a transformation. Biting someone, however, triggers the transformation.

Speculating madly, I'd say its likely that not all bites transfer the ability (at least in the case of vampires, anyway). It might be a type of venom which they can control.

Anyway...

I don't think Marcus, at the end of the film, is becoming an abomination. It's possible, but that doesn't seem to follow the rules they've set-up. (Although I wouldn't put it past them to screw up.)

Justin Bacon
triad3204@aol.com

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09-24-2003, 03:20 PM

Post originally by Justin Bacon at 2003-09-24 15:20:04
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That doesn't work. If the blood wasn't key, why do they go after Amelia's blood?

But if the blood is key, why is it that Selene never gives any blood to Michael?

Stupid film.

Justin Bacon
triad3204@aol.com

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09-24-2003, 03:26 PM

Post originally by Justin Bacon at 2003-09-24 15:26:29
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Matt Clay wrote:
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1) Kraven shoots Lucien. The big bad Lycan brings Lucien Amelia's blood, thinks that he's dead and drops Amelia's blood. Lucien regains consciousness and then what does he do? Does he inject himself with all the great blood lying two feet from him? No, he starts crawling all around, forgetting completely about becoming a hybrid and perhaps becoming strong enough to live.
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Simple explanation: He didn't see it. It's not like the guy left big signs saying "Amelia's Blood In Here".

Now, here's the thing, though: This guy must have known what the plot was, since he's standing right there listening to the doctor and Lucien discuss it earlier in the film. So why doesn't he seize the initiative, draw some more blood from Michael (hanging right there), and turn himself in to a hybrid?

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2) After dropping Amelia's blood, the big bad Lycan runs off and looks for someone to kill. He finds Kraven and there's a nice fight scene involving whips! Now, at the end of this the Lycan fights off all the pain of the silver whips and walks right up to Kraven and presumably rips him to shreds. Well, until two scenes later when Kraven shows up, seemingly unharmed, with no comment about how he got away...
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He wasn't fighting Kraven. The bit I love, though, is that he manages to grab this vamp -- and the vamps walking about three feet in front of him don't even notice it.

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3) When Selene takes Michael to the interrogation room she runs over to a refregirator and takes out a packet of blood and throws it to Michael. Why? He's becoming a werewolf, not a vampire! He'd far prefer beef jerky to blood.
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You're making a rather large assumption here. It's fully possible that lycans, just like vampires, require blood in the UNDERWORLD universe.

Justin Bacon
triad3204@aol.com

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09-24-2003, 05:07 PM

Post originally by Justin at 2003-09-24 17:07:32
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Can someone explain the part about Corvinus, the first immortal. He had 3 sons? One became a vampire, one a werewolf and the other remained a human.
Is that correct?

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09-24-2003, 08:19 PM

Post originally by FunGuyFromYuggoth at 2003-09-24 20:19:51
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This movie was a crashing dissapointment for me. It clearly had the look and physicality down, but the "secret" was blatantly obvious and the acting, especially by Viktor followed by Kraven (who named these guys?), was terrible. What was Viktor gagging? A vampire hairball? I liked the concept of Instant Vampire (Just Add Blood), but beyond that, this was a terrible execution of a great premise.

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09-25-2003, 09:55 PM

Post originally by DJ at 2003-09-25 21:55:29
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It really annoyed me that although Selene is powerful, she stands straight up in a sewer and caps off a couple hundred rounds, and the lycans with automatic weapons behind cover can't seem to hit her the entire movie. Like when they're at the interogation room and Selene aims at nothing and just starts shooting at walls and manages to hit EVERY single lycan as she calmly stands there with her pistol and doesn't even get scratched. I mean some of the fight scenes were not realistic.

But as stated by Game Wiz, on certain occasions (the train) the lycans just destroy the vampires, and on others, it seems like the lycans are just stupid dogs that run into a blender of bullet fire and fall over and die.

Did anyone notice that other than in the begining scene, only one vampire seemed to get hit with the "sunlight rounds"?

And why didn't Raze just inject Lucian with Amelias blood while he was laying on the ground. Or why didn't Lucian do it himslef when he awoke and crawled over to Kraven and punched the hole in his leg, remember he had already injected Michael's blood into himself.

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09-26-2003, 06:34 AM

Post originally by Tsukikage at 2003-09-26 06:34:42
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That's what I got from it. One was bitten by a bat, one by a wolf, and the third remained normal or something (or maybe was born before Corvin became an Immortal?). They kind of sped through that part, so I'm not certain that's right.

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09-26-2003, 06:39 AM

Post originally by Tsukikage at 2003-09-26 06:39:08
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And they're both called Bloodlines :P

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09-26-2003, 06:46 AM

Post originally by Tsukikage at 2003-09-26 06:46:27
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I don't know ... in traditional werewolf folklore, you don't see werewolves who can change any time they want AND have a giant war man-wolf war form AND gather together in a secret society to hold meetings on their war against vampires.

I'm not saying Sony intentionally meant to rip off White Wolf, but if I made a sci-fi movie about people with psionic powers fighting an evil empire, it wouldn't matter whether I'd ever heard of Star Wars or not :P

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09-26-2003, 06:49 AM

Post originally by Tsukikage at 2003-09-26 06:49:43
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A friend of mine astutely pointed out:

"You know what would've made this movie better? More techno and more kung fu."

I couldn't help but grin and nod.

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09-26-2003, 07:34 AM

Post originally by CT at 2003-09-26 07:34:24
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My problem was since both clans transmit memories through their blood, whether by biting (as Lucien did to Michael) or by sharing blood (as Selene did when awakening Viktor), why didn't Selene realize what Viktor did to her family when he "created" her? I agree that it seemed odd she instantly believed Kraven, whom she despised, when he told her about what Viktor did, since the movie had built up how much she trusted Viktor (it's his house, he'd have believed me, I was lost without you, blah blah blah....)

I guess we just have to believe that in addition to being able to kick werewolf butt barehanded, he as an Elder was able to control what memories he shared when he bit Selene. However, the movie just didn't build up the Elders to be truly bad-ass; how did the Elder on the train not even seem to kill even one lycan?

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09-28-2003, 05:44 PM

Post originally by Cristonio Zorila at 2003-09-28 17:44:44
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I found that the film had very few plot holes - and it was interesting to me as a microbiology researcher- the bits about the recessive carrier of the "Corvinus" strain. (Interesting side note: the real Matthias Corvinus was an historic king of Hungary who defeated and imprisoned for seven years Vlad Tepes aka Dracula)

In response to:

1) Kraven shoots Lucien. The big bad Lycan brings Lucien Amelia's blood, thinks that he's dead and drops Amelia's blood. Lucien regains consciousness and then what does he do? Does he inject himself with all the great blood lying two feet from him? No, he starts crawling all around, forgetting completely about becoming a hybrid and perhaps becoming strong enough to live.

*He was out cold. I'm sure anyone in such a situation, especially considering the painful condition of a relatively high density fluid bulldozing its way through his veins, would not be apt to notice a discarded and unlabeled vial of blood nearby.

2) After dropping Amelia's blood, the big bad Lycan runs off and looks for someone to kill. He finds Kraven and there's a nice fight scene involving whips! Now, at the end of this the Lycan fights off all the pain of the silver whips and walks right up to Kraven and presumably rips him to shreds. Well, until two scenes later when Kraven shows up, seemingly unharmed, with no comment about how he got away...

*Raze (the big bad lycan who is actually portrayed by the writer of this film) fights and presumably kills a whip-toting vampire called Soren.

3) When Selene takes Michael to the interrogation room she runs over to a refregirator and takes out a packet of blood and throws it to Michael. Why? He's becoming a werewolf, not a vampire! He'd far prefer beef jerky to blood. Besides, he seems to be trying to resist his bestial nature and I seriously doubt he'd just take a big chug out of a blood bag. The only reason I can think of why they did this is to show that the vampires drink synthetic blood, not real people. Of course, the question of what they did before this invention isn't answered for another 45 minutes when Kraven says that they drank animal blood. Can someone please tell me the writers thought they were acomplishing with this exchange (other than giving Michael another much needed line)?

*When Selene and Michael first enter the room, she explains that it is an interrogation chamber for captured lycans. She indicated that the blood is there for the lycan interrogatees. She tells Michael that he will be able to stave off the effects of the lycanthropy by consuming it (it's not intended to slake his thirst). She then throws in the gun with several rounds of the special silver-plated ammunition for an even bigger antilycanthropic punch.

Regards,
Cristonio

Matt Clay wrote:
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Aside from the acting, which actually caused the audience to break out laughing at some points, here are the four major "oddities" that I found in the movie:

1) Kraven shoots Lucien. The big bad Lycan brings Lucien Amelia's blood, thinks that he's dead and drops Amelia's blood. Lucien regains consciousness and then what does he do? Does he inject himself with all the great blood lying two feet from him? No, he starts crawling all around, forgetting completely about becoming a hybrid and perhaps becoming strong enough to live.

2) After dropping Amelia's blood, the big bad Lycan runs off and looks for someone to kill. He finds Kraven and there's a nice fight scene involving whips! Now, at the end of this the Lycan fights off all the pain of the silver whips and walks right up to Kraven and presumably rips him to shreds. Well, until two scenes later when Kraven shows up, seemingly unharmed, with no comment about how he got away...

3) When Selene takes Michael to the interrogation....

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09-29-2003, 01:00 AM

Post originally by Wyvern at 2003-09-29 01:00:57
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Tsukikage wrote:
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I don't know ... in traditional werewolf folklore, you don't see werewolves who can change any time they want AND have a giant war man-wolf war form AND gather together in a secret society to hold meetings on their war against vampires.
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D&D has werewolves who can change form at will, who have a "wolfman" form, who can pass on lycanthropy either genetically or by biting, and who congregate in family groups.

I remember seeing an episode of "The Real Ghostbusters" (the old cartoon series) where the Ghostbusters stumbled across a village of people who turned out to all be werewolves and who had a vendetta against vampires. The story climaxed in a fight with vampire and werewolves biting each other and turning into freaky hybrids (wolfmen with bat-wings and suchlike). It's not a huge stretch to call that an abomination.

I think there was also an episode of the "Teen Wolf" cartoon that featured a family of vampires as the bad guys.

Honestly, if you think that White Wolf were the first people to ever come up with any of these ideas, you need to get out more.

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I'm not saying Sony intentionally meant to rip off White Wolf, but if I made a sci-fi movie about people with psionic powers fighting an evil empire, it wouldn't matter whether I'd ever heard of Star Wars or not :P
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So you're saying Babylon 5 is a rip-off of Star Wars? :P

Anyway, it *would* matter whether you'd heard of Star Wars. You can't sue someone for coming up with ideas similar to yours if there's no evidence that they ever knew about your ideas. (Well, you *can* sue them, but you shouldn't expect to win.) Plagiarism is illegal; coincidence of ideas is not, nor should it be.

Wyvern

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
- William Shakespeare, "Hamlet"

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10-10-2003, 04:46 PM

Post originally by ilufstars at 2003-10-10 16:46:20
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I think they kind of talked about it being a virus or something. I heard one of the co-writers say they presented it as a virus so it kind of makes it a genetic thing. Which means they could come up with a cure for it.

-ilufstars

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10-11-2003, 09:34 AM

Post originally by ilufstars at 2003-10-11 09:34:11
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I never got this, but can someone fill me in as to why they wanted Amelia's blood? Couldn't they use any old vamp's blood?

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01-20-2004, 09:10 AM

Post originally by Lucia at 2004-01-20 09:10:25
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"And why didn't Raze just inject Lucian with Amelias blood while he was laying on the ground. Or why didn't Lucian do it himslef when he awoke and crawled over to Kraven and punched the hole in his leg, remember he had already injected Michael's blood into himself."

Raze thought Lucian was dead, and being dead, Amelia's blood would be useless to him. Raze, in his fury dropped/through the vile to the floor where it smashed into a zillion pieces. When Lucian came to his sences he didn't know that the blood on the floor was Amelia's, since he's spilled a whole lot of his own blood. Even if the vile was intact and Lucian had injeted himself, being an abomination wouldn't have saved him. It's all explained carefully in the book Underworld. I advise you to read it.

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01-20-2004, 09:18 AM

Post originally by Lucia at 2004-01-20 09:18:31
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Mant's right. If Lucian just injected himself with Amelia's blood, he probably would have died, since Amelia's blood cells and his blood cells would have attacked eachother and killed eachother off. He needed michael's blood to act as a buffer between the oposite cells.

Mant wrote:
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That wasn't the impression that I got. They needed someone of Corvinus's bloodline who was a "carrier" (at least that's what I thought they said), who then could turn into a hybrid. Otherwise, why did they need Michael? If all you needed was an elder vampire's blood to turn, then Michael really didn't matter much, did he?

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Someone of Corvius' human descent should have the 'pure' virus, that let's the other two combine safely.

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Not saying that's what the actual plan was, but that was the impression I got when I watched it (especially since it looked like Lucien was going to inject Michael prior to Kraven's actions)

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Lucien takes blood from Michael. He isn't planning on turning Michael, he is going to use Michael's blood, and the vampire Elder's blood to turn himself.

Matn

Mant's right. If Lucian just injected himself with Amelia's blood, he probably would have died, since Amelia's blood cells and his blood cells would have attacked eachother and killed eachother off. He needed michael's blood to act as a buffer between the oposite cells. There is something in michaels blood that makes it possible for the vamp and lycan cells to interact and be one. And then turn into an abomination. Read the book.

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01-20-2004, 09:22 AM

Post originally by Lucia at 2004-01-20 09:22:27
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they could have used any old vamp's blood, but Amelia is an elder so she is more powerful than any old vamp. her blood would make Lucian stronger than it would with "any old vamp's"

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02-12-2004, 05:07 AM

Post originally by MagusX at 2004-02-12 05:07:23
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Although this isn't the best movie in the world, understanding the movie might have made for a much better, and more convincing, review.

Firstly, Lycans are not werewolves. They are actually guard dogs with "werewolf"-like abilities, ie. transforming into a stronger being at the full moon. Thus in the story, they are said to be the daytime guardians of the vampyres. The movie made a change from dogs to humans for the obvious reason.

Secondly, the whole reason why the abomination, Micheal, couldn't defeat Viktor was because before his actual transformation from lycan to abomination, he was shot with silver nitrate bullets, which is usually lethal to lycans, thus it severely weakened him.

The only part which bothered me a bit was the ending. Since the last elder was of the Corvinus blood line, and the blood of the lycan killed by Viktor seeped through to his resting place, as the movie indicates in the end, he becomes an abomination. However, the movie ends with Selene talking about revenge against her, where both races will form a pact. But since the last elder becomes an abomination, does he help her or hunt her?