[RPG]: The Window 2nd Edition, reviewed by Tanner (3/3)

[RPGnet Reviews]

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9941.phtml

Tanner's Summary:

The system, while nice and easy to play, is rather simple for my own tastes, and I didn’t like the tone the game took towards more mechanically-edged systems.

Go to the full review (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9941.phtml) for more information.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by The Old Geezer at 2003-12-19 07:22:28
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You are right about the condescending, sneering narrative voice of "The Window". That alone will turn most people off.

Of course, it's logical that they would be so deragatory towards more mechanistic systems - a simple analysis of their "die size vs experience" progression shows that the increase in skills is erratic in the extreme - the jump from d10 to d12 is not worth the experience points, but going from d12 to d20 gives you a huge benfit vs. the experience needed.

That's just one example that shows how the writer or writers of this game had not even a seventh-grade level grasp of basic probability.

For anyone who passed freshman algebra in high school, this system is so flawed and clunky as to be totally unplayable.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by John DeHope 3 at 2003-12-19 08:50:55
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"had not even a seventh-grade level grasp of basic probability."
Or maybe he made his game with the premise that the probabilities just aren't very important.

"is not worth the experience points"
Maybe the people playing the game don't measure what is or isn't worth XP. Maybe they're focused on something else.

"For anyone who passed freshman algebra in high school,"
They will understand the probabilities involved. Yes. So what?

"this system is so flawed and clunky as to be totally unplayable."
Just because you don't share the game's focus (roll playing, ultra light rules) you don't have to bash it into the ground. I don't like the rules either, it's not my style, but I don't challenge the value of it because of that. It's okay to not like something but still see how others might.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by The Old Geezer at 2003-12-19 09:22:40
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You're probably right, but the game's writing style of "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" annoyed me to the point of becoming hypercritical of its flaws.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by The Old Geezer at 2003-12-19 09:23:58
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Though there are other rules-light systems that aren't so imbalanced. Fudge comes instantly to mind.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Seanchai at 2003-12-19 12:21:41
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>>You're probably right, but the game's writing style of "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" annoyed me to the point of becoming hypercritical of its flaws. <<

What other flaws do you see?

Seanchai

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by FredH at 2003-12-19 13:21:20
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...some years ago, for what was intended as the first session of a semi-Doctor Who campaign, it worked fine. (The campaign combusted before it could continue, but for reasons which had nothing to do with the system.) Character generation in particular went extremely well; even if it translates into dice rolls, the descriptive element seemed to really energize some of the players' background-writing.

Two things to admit, though:

1. The game as written has amazing amounts of excess, overdone verbiage; I was able to boil the actual *system* down to a two-page handout for the players.

2. It's great for games in which combat will not take a major role for the player characters--say, if you're the typical Doctor Who companion-type, which several PCs were. It will *not* work well for combat-heavy situations--which is fine, so long as you're not looking to run that sort of game.

FredH

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by John DeHope 3 at 2003-12-19 13:24:53
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Three cheers for including the url link!
Hip! Hip!

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by John DeHope 3 at 2003-12-19 13:34:14
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I read this reply. I said to myself "if this geezer guy is smart enough to not only A) admit he might be wrong, and B) do the self-exam to find out why he erred, then C) he must be a pretty smart person. Ayn Rand would be proud."

So I said (still to myself) "I think I'll check into this Window 2nd Ed. game and see for myself".

I hopped back to the review, saw the reviewer had thankfully included a link for me, started a thread thanking him for doing this, then went to read the PDF. That's when I get to this...

"The Window is a transparent portal into the imagination, a roleplaying
system designed with the simple belief that roleplaying is about story
and character and not about dice and dick waving."

I can only speak for myself. This guy is totally wrong.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Vin Diakuw at 2003-12-19 13:42:04
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To clarify for the many who probably haven't read the game, the progression of experience is for die types to shrink (that is, d20 is less useful than d12) because the objective is to roll under the target number.

It is a rocky probability curve though. But there in the case of the Window I think that the whole thing is clearly "style over substance" system-wise. Leave the substance to the roleplaying end and let the system be elegant and unobtrusive.

In a similar vein, but with escalating dice and high rolls being good (and more crunch during character creation), I strongly recommend Fable.

http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/archive/freerpgs/fable/fable.doc

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Brand Robins at 2003-12-19 15:14:14
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Of course the irony I always found in the Window (1st ed) was the amount of time they spent insisting they weren't using math, numbers, or any of that "baggage" to define the game. All stats were based on words you see. As the FIRST PRECEPT says, “"Everything about a Window character is described with adjectives rather than numbers." The problem is that it isn’t true. Your stats all have a dice type, and a dice type is both a number and a range of numbers, which interact with a target number to decide success or failure in the game. So at the system interaction point, everything still comes down to those adjectives being numbered.

I actually tried playing the game once, and really quick players stopped bothering with their adjective scores, and were all like "Well I've got a d20 in that, and he has a d10 so…. "

Now, I’d like to say that there is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Putting the focus on adjectives can be a good thing for new players, and FUDGE and MET both have done interesting jobs of making such a word based game work. However the Window spent all its time talking about how numbers shouldn’t be the point, and none of it actually getting around reducing the system reliance on numbers.

Really, the Window could have been a nice fun rules-light system, but its own hype and delusion of grandeur (precepts, yet) led to it being nothing special.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Seanchai at 2003-12-19 15:56:57
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>>1. The game as written has amazing amounts of excess, overdone verbiage; I was able to boil the actual *system* down to a two-page handout for the players.

2. It's great for games in which combat will not take a major role for the player characters--say, if you're the typical Doctor Who companion-type, which several PCs were. It will *not* work well for combat-heavy situations--which is fine, so long as you're not looking to run that sort of game. <<

I agree with both those.

I should have been more clear: I'm wondering if there are other mechanical flaws that folks have come across aside from the jump from d12 to d20.

Seanchai

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by FredH at 2003-12-19 19:25:32
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I should probably emphasize here that-- particularly in its rules-only, throw-out-the-rhetoric form--I personally think The Window is a brilliant system for basically-narrativist roleplaying. I went through a short period of thinking I'd never use anything else again, and I *still* think that if one were forced to never again use anything but The Window for non-combat games and Savage Worlds for (cinematic) combat-heavy ones, one would not be too badly off.

FredH

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Seanchai at 2003-12-19 20:10:03
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>>I *still* think that if one were forced to never again use anything but The Window for non-combat games and Savage Worlds for (cinematic) combat-heavy ones, one would not be too badly off. <<

Fine. Spoil it. See if I care.

Seanchai

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by The Saint at 2003-12-19 20:42:20
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I gotta back up the Geezer on this one (which is appropriate as I believe I was the one who brought the first Window to the Geezer's attention). The mechanics, simple as they are, are quite flawed. In fact the flaws are all the more glaring because of their simplicity.

However I feel that the viewpoint that underlies these 'precepts' are even more flawed than the subsequent rules. I think most of us would agree that RPGs can be put on a spectrum of rules heavy to rules light with gamess like the Hero/Champions system on one end and games like FUDGE, or even the Window, on the other. However to then conclude that this spectrum instead represents a path of evolution with the Window at it's pinnacle is not just mean spirited and arrogant, it is blind to the most important part of what a game system does: make an imaginary world mutually intelligible to all the participants.

The entire reason that we use a rules system is so that I can describe an imaginary thing or being in a way that it can interact with your imaginary thing or being, and interact in a way that we can both understand. That's why we have a number that represents 'Strength' (for exampe), so that you can say how strong your character is without an immense amount of description of how much he can lift and how no mortal man can string his bow and what happened the time he chucked a spear clear through the base of the largest tree in the forest. Then, with this simple numerical shorthand, I can have an idea of what the character is capable of, and of the likelyhood of success should our hero have to arm wrestle the cyclops.

The point here is that a game system is functional to the point that it creates a world that can be comprehended by, and makes some sort of logical sense to, the players. The other side of this is that a game system is disfuntional to the point that it either fails to provide a sufficient framework to make the world intelligible, or the point that what framework exists is illogical, confusing, self-contridictory, or over complicated.

If I am just telling a story to myself, or writing fiction, then no system is necessary. I know what should happen and why. I know how the things in my head stack up against all the other things in my head. But you and I need a medium of communication, of compairison, if we are going to tell a story together. The ideal system is one that all participants understand. If we are going to communicate effectively we all need to speak the same language. Furthermore the system or language must be able to support what we need to communicate to each other.

If you and I have grown up together, had most of the same experiences, read the same literature, listened to the same music, watched the same music, I might not need many much in the way of a game framework to run a game set in the world of Homer's epics. Something as simple as the Window might do the job. We both know what to expect. However if, for example, you've never had any cultural input other than Anime (I recommend 'Ranma 1/2', by the way, good and funny stuff) I will most likely need a more extensive framwork to make that same world understandable to us both.

Stick with me here, folks. We're in the home stretch.

Here's the payoff: the perfect game system between you and me is the one that efficently communicates what we need to tell each other, and then gets out of the way.

No one else, particularly not the author of the Window, can tell us what level of detail or breath of vocabulary will do the job for us. These things tend to find their own level. If we start with a very complex and detailed system we may soon ignore or gloss over many of the rules. If we start with a 'rules lite' system we may have to make up a few new rules as we go along, or find a more sophisticated system.

And here, finally, is where the Window fails. It asserts, and maintains by evidence-free retoric, that more rules are bad and less rules are good. Should it not then conclude that no rules at all are best? Even from the height of it's soapbox it acknowledges that some framework, some game specific vocabulary, is necessary. In the text (following the section on the multitude of things the Window ISN'T) the author states that the Window is a call to arms. However the structure from which he has chosen to hurl his stones is made entirely of windows. In other words, a glass house.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by James D. Hargrove at 2003-12-19 23:01:02
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What Mr. DeHope said. Well, almost... I like The Window, but that's because I don't grade RPGs on how they handle mathematical probability, rather I grade them on how much fun I can squeeze out of them. I've generally found that mathematics have little to do with entertainment value.

Sincerely,
James D. Hargrove

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Ginryu at 2003-12-20 03:01:14
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It is beyond me why people want to play WIndow, when they are concerned with probabilities and XP.

There are many other RPGs out there which deal with these issues.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by René Vernon at 2003-12-20 03:47:00
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Vin Diakuw wrote in part:

> In a similar vein, but with escalating dice and high rolls being good (and more crunch during character creation), I strongly recommend Fable.

> http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/archive/freerpgs/fable/fable.doc

Yah, Fable's Window-like mechanics are better than the original and there is no "The Window is holier than thou" dick-waving either

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Malacoda at 2003-12-20 09:02:55
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Very well said, Saint. This has been my viewpoint for many years, and you put it very eloquently.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Enoch at 2003-12-20 10:03:45
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The thing is, Windows works fine for the games I run. No problems, no loss of logic. My players and I do not have super similar thinking patterns or what not either. We all have differant expectations for a story.

In fact I've seen it run by many GMs and they all have good experiences with it.

In other words, it just doesn't work for you. Doesn't mean its broken. If it can work for somebody (and in my case many somebodies) it definitely isn't broken.

-Joshua

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Matthew Mather at 2003-12-20 13:19:07
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I knew about The Window years before Savage Worlds came out, but many of the same things mentioned in the review bugged me then. SW is similar in that it uses die types to define how good characters are at doing things, but it's more intuitive (the higher the die type, the better), more detailed (actual rules for combat, vehicles, critters, etc.) and doesn't have an attitude problem.

Sure, SW costs $30, but if I wasn't willing to use The Window much after the first time I tried it, and SW is now the official system of my group(d20 was the former), I think that just goes to show that both are worth exactly what the authors want you to pay for them.

(Wushu and several other "simple" systems I could name are also better than The Window, by the way, it's just that SW gets more play-time because there are actual campaign books for it.)

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Matthew Mather at 2003-12-20 13:22:16
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"(Wushu and several other "simple" systems I could name are also better than The Window, by the way, it's just that SW gets more play-time because there are actual campaign books for it.)"

BTW: Like someone else mentioned, Fudge is another one. Just thought I'd point it out.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Seanchai at 2003-12-20 13:47:14
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Except Savage Worlds isn't rules-light. If you're picking up The Window for that reasons - or for it's quick, free-form chargen - then Savage Worlds isn't really a suitable substitute.

Seanchai

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Seanchai at 2003-12-20 13:49:59
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>>In other words, it just doesn't work for you. Doesn't mean its broken. If it can work for somebody (and in my case many somebodies) it definitely isn't broken.<<

True, but, in all fairness, they are right about the tone of the text and the jump in die types.

Seanchai

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Mithras at 2003-12-20 16:20:45
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Yeh, The Window was the first rpg I ever found on the internet (3 or 4 years ago now) and I printed it off at my father-in-laws house and digested it all. The Window was fantastic. But under scrutiny, many changes were made ... and then some more. Just to get it up and running.

I'm sure it plays OK as is, but I liked my dice to represent a sliding scale going UP, not down (d20 is better than d12).

I didn't change much else.

Because I work alot with children, my Window version is a neat intro to RPGS. For these reasons:

Simple stat/skill/ability descriptors
Funky attractive dice on the table
High is good, low is bad

One thing that helped in these games was a truncated dice/skill level scale.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Tanner at 2003-12-20 19:17:32
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I'm always INCREDIBLY annoyed when a free, downloadable RPG review doesn't have the link, so I've begun to correct this as I've firmed up my review structure. Glad people appreciate it.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by access.denied at 2003-12-21 07:27:26
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I ran a steampunk campaign using The Window, and it worked surprisingly well for me... easy to get into for players, fairly freeform etc, and custom skills (which are much better explained in Unknown Armies, but work exactly well here).
But, much like the few other people here who enjoyed The Window, stats/probabilities played a very minor role in that game.
I don't like total freeform because character sheets serve as a useful overview of who the characters are (useful for both the GM and the players) in our sessions, and The Window provided both a good structure for that as well as a simple resolution system which served all our randomization needs.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Dr Rotwang! at 2003-12-21 11:34:20
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Just use it. Ignore its pretentiousness.

"OoOoOoOoOooOh, I'm the BEST GAME there EVER WAS because I DON'T NeEeEeEEEd all those ROOoOoOooOoooOles...!" Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wankity-wank-wank-<i>wank</i>. I got a game to play, Junior.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by The Old Geezer at 2003-12-21 15:14:10
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Best comment on the subject yet. (Hiya, Saint!!)

I could live with the hiccups in numerical probability if it wasn't for the damn preachy tone of the writing.

If I wanted to be condescended to continually, I'd still be married to my first wife.

-- Old Geezer

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Robert Stehwien at 2003-12-21 16:34:37
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Fate is a nice incarnation of Fudge:
http://www.faterpg.com/

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Tom B. at 2003-12-21 17:33:54
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For a couple of years we've generally used Risus for pick-up games, or for when we hadn't really decided on a system yet. It's about the most rules-lite game you can find, and I don't really see anything superior about The Window, and Risus doesn't have nearly the attitude problem. (Besides...you can buy a coffee cup with the rules for Risus printed on it...how cool is that?)

What would The Window do better? I'm curious because I've read through TW rules a few times, but never tried it due to the condescending attitude.

(Oh...just to provide the Risus link...
http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm)

Tom B.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by The Old Geezer at 2003-12-21 17:47:40
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Okay, rules you can get on a coffee cup I'm totally down with! That alone is reason enough to play it!

-- Old Geezer

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Tanner at 2003-12-21 18:22:03
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Playwise, they're about the same. Risus works more smoothly than The Window for rolls against a fixed rating, but falls short on opposed rolls.

Personally, I prefer using Risus, since it requires a lot less work for pick-up and play games. The Window's character creation can take a little while, since there's no set list of skills, and unlike Risus, you don't have a bunch of broad groupings for your skills.

For your purposes, Risus will still work better.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by GhostDog at 2003-12-22 01:01:42
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What's the big deal with using a d30? They're not any harder to find, or any more inconvenient, than d8s, 10s, 12s or any other type of gaming dice.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Joe at 2003-12-22 04:17:36
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...where can I get such a coffee cup? I wannit!

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by The Old Geezer at 2003-12-22 09:07:23
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Since I could not remember which edition of Windows I read - having burned the copy I downloaded - I went to the site and re-read it.

Apparently it was the first edition that pissed me off so much. The edition currently on the web site is not so stinking of condescention.

I still don't like the author's writing style, and I categorically disagree with the notion that one type of roleplaying is in any way 'better' than another. Intellectual honesty, however, compels me to say that this document isn't the one I was writing about.

"Never mind."

But I think the rules would be better if they were available printed on a beer stein.

-- Old Geezer

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Matthew Mather at 2003-12-22 17:38:06
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It's rules-light compared to D&D(ANY edition, but especially d20 and AD&D2), Warhammer FRP or Palladium. Of course, I said "simple" not rules-light. By simple I mean you don't figure out which of your nine attributes add to Skill X for Situation Y or have to remember which similarly-named spells of different levels allow what kind of saving throw OR have to decide exactly how many energy stones go to defense or attack on a particular round*. In that respect: The Window, Savage Worlds, Fudge, and a ton of other RPGs you can find for free or to buy have much in common. But in my personal opinion, The Window is near the bottom of the list. It's not he worst I've ever played, it's just that SW has similar but far better developed rules and it's the first thing that sprung to mind.

*In order of appearance, that's Storyteller, D&D and the new Marvel game that I'm bashing. I've played campaigns of ST-Vampire, ST-Werewolf, and various versions of D&D and enjoyed them, but the systems have some serious flaws that "simple" systems seem to not bother with.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Matthew Mather at 2003-12-22 18:05:24
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Yes they are. I have one, I got it used, and exept for conventions have NEVER seen any others. But the d30 isn't The Window's main issue in my mind.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Tom B. at 2003-12-22 19:24:11
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http://www.cafeshops.com/risus.2191087


(Note that I didn't say you could easily read the rules when put on a mug...:) )


Tom B.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Tanner at 2003-12-22 22:03:28
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Wrong.

Mind Games, which is a fairly common store in Canadian malls, carries lots of board games and board game like stuff. It also doubles as a FLGS. It carries the standard array of dice mentioned in my review, while some (such as the one at the Eaton Center) carry shitloads of used books and other crap, as well.

I have never seen a d30 in a single one. Nor have I seen a d30 in any of the FLGSs in Toronto I regularly visit.

Sorry, but they aren't as common. It's simply a matter of usage. Since no popular games use 'em, they're damn near impossible to find since most gamers don't need 'em.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Minx at 2003-12-23 11:53:53
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I never had problems to find a d30. Sure, I got some puzzled looks when I asked the clerk for one, but that happened only once and they had quite a few after all. Their are uncommon, true, but it in my city (!) not really hard to come by.

And I think it is quite good to add that dice, because it gives another level under "Average". I think that just using a "...good-average-bad" grit would be too clunky.

M

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by GhostDog at 2003-12-24 09:40:44
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Huh, all I can say is that I've never had a problem finding them. All of gaming stores I've went to have had plenty of D30s, but maybe southern Illinois-Indiana-Kentucky is just a good place to pick up gaming supplies.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by MDG at 2003-12-29 12:09:44
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I've never played Risus, but I have the rules lying around somewhere. I ran an online game of the window through a Java chatroom client that had a built in diceroller, including d30's... The game was a buffy-esque sort of horror game, and in the half dozen or so sessions, we ran a pretty good story... My players were fairly bright, and honest, so the whole "make up your own skills" bit wasn't too bad... overall, the window was -great- for online gaming...

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Vin Diakuw at 2004-01-26 18:42:29
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I also playtested the Window. Although the probabilities are 'wonky' on paper, I found that everything worked smoothly in play.

On the subject of the presentation (black with lots of space, moody examples, etc), I found that it inspired me to create a gloomy, gritty setting, quite different from my usual high fantasy leanings. I was able to communicate the mood well to the players. I think this sort of contribution from presentation is overlooked.