[Book/Nonfiction]: Role-Playing Mastery, reviewed by Bubbalin (2/3)

[RPGnet Reviews]

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9959.phtml

Bubbalin's Summary:

An interesting book offering a historical perspective of role-playing as well as gems of information, plagued by excessive verbiage and the author’s inability to get down off his high horse and truly connect with the audience.

Go to the full review (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9959.phtml) for more information.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Lazarus at 2003-12-24 09:43:25
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A few points.

first is that the lack of art inside the book shouldn't affect anything; it's not really an RPG supplement.

Second, he's right in his main theses - that RPG "Mastery" really is a _group_ thing and not an individual thing. I guess you agreed with that, just not the support for it he gave.

Third, it's always good to observe others, how they play, etc. Just like I'm sure actors get out there and see how others work - much the same thing.

Fourth, what's with all your little diatribes in there? I found your review quite hard to read because of it - you admitted to it being your second review, but you might want to watch that in the future.

Laz

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by megasquidd at 2003-12-24 10:45:08
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Why would you read a book about roleplaying written by the creator of D&D when you obviously hate D&D and the entire genre? Of course the author is going to you fantasy examples... Even the cover has a picture of a dragon on it.
It would be like reading a book about sportsmanship written by Dr. Nasmith and but hating basketball. But i digress...
On to the content of the review. I found the authors tone to be trite and condescending. I'll be the first to admit that Gygax's attitude doesn't always please me. The author obviously agrees with me and his review oozes with sarcasm, cynisism, and contempt. It makes the review almost unreadable. But i digress...
You should try writting a review on something that you don't have such contempt for. But i digress...
You came off like a fanboi-troll. Now I'm sure you are not one of those. And I'm sure that was not the way you meant to come off, but you did. If this was your second review then i hope the third is better.
In the future if you want to criticize someones condescending tone you should careful not you use a more condescending tone to criticize them with.

Mike

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Vibropod at 2003-12-24 11:09:32
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"obviously he wasn’t as gifted with diplomatic ability. (Or to be snide, with financial ability either, after all, where is TSR?)"

Gygax was no longer a part of TSR long before their financial difficulties.

"The author makes some other excellent points that suggest he spends as much time behind the screen as me."

Since he has been GM-ing since the early 70s, and you've been playing since 2000, I would suggest that you are nowhere close.

Unfortunately, your review comes off sounding just as superior in tone as a typical Gygax piece. You might want to tone down the opinions and editorializing and stick to facts in the future.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Wes Johnson at 2003-12-24 12:58:19
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At a time in my life I did like AD&D and its predecessors. However even by 1987 Gygax's influence and skill at game design had truely waned. He brought a lot to the hobby and is a legend for that.

But he is the last person I would ever seriously read a thesis about RPG's, their evolution and players. What has he done that has been dramatically different then his original efforts? At a point in time everyone could accept his pedestrian game design and scholarly efforts because nobody else was doign it. Kudos to him, but also gamer's and designers got a whole lot smarter. Gygax never did.

It is not much of a joke, but it summs up Gygax quite well:

Q: What is Gary Gygax's favorite dinosaur?
A: The thesaurus.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Wes Johnson at 2003-12-24 13:00:39
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Just because he comes off as superior and is less experienced then some of the gamers here, does not mean he is wrong.

This coming from someone who has been gaming since 1978 and ceased marvelling at Gygax's wisdom circa 1986.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Wes Johnson at 2003-12-24 13:02:12
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His tone could have been deliberately farsical...but it is not like Gygax has done a whole lot to garner respect in say 25 years either.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Tadeusz at 2003-12-24 19:25:43
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If anyone in the RPG industry ever gets on a stamp, it will be Gygax.

"Last 25 years...accomplished nothing." Uh, Wes, we know you dislike Gygax,but please no hyperbole.

Tadeusz

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Bubbalin at 2003-12-25 00:28:40
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Yeah, I agree in general with your points. I just find the way the author tries to say 'this is my opinion and it should be every one else's also', quite annoying. I found it very grating, and perhaps my frustration showed.
I don't understand your third point though. I think I agreed with it, but I just didn't like the way gygax went and pushed a lot of things... Maybe you could clarify and we can discuss it.
As for the art, I guess it really shows its vintage there. But still, I found it very long in some sections without artwork or anything to break it. (Yes, I do read novels, but I guess I gold this to a different standard)
Feel free to comment some more.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Bubbalin at 2003-12-25 00:33:16
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Hehe, I confess to writing this in the middle of the night. :) Between the hours of midnight and 3:30am actually.
I suppose I was expecting a lot more, and got frustrated by it and yet oddly energised. I don't know, I just feel it could have been so much more.
Yeah, oozing of sarcasm I know... But I guess I just felt that his ego in this book was on the verge of bursting and that annoys me. (Maybe because I have just as big an ego and can't stand the competition. :)
Anyway, I digress. :)

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Bubbalin at 2003-12-25 00:34:51
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Oh Wes, you poor soul, then you must have missed this insightful work! :)

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Bubbalin at 2003-12-25 00:37:52
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True, but I claim them as my own opinion, and I suppose thats what annoyed me the most. I admit I wrote this, and I admitted that they are my opinions. Now if I wrote this article claiming to speak for the entire gaming community, then that would be a very superior tone.
But yeah, I admit to being a narcissist. I even admitted to being big headed, though you may have missed it. Besides, my psychologist told me so. :)

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Bubbalin at 2003-12-25 00:40:25
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Hehe, thanks for the support.
The thesaurus joke is good. Well, it sums him up like you say.
I will continue with my cynical, narcissistic reviews. :)

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Lazarus at 2003-12-25 03:58:59
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What I meant by the third point is that you seemed to dislike that Gygax advocates getting out in the community, playing with others and observing others.

This to me is a good thing to do if you're really intent on being the Best You Can Be - if you see something other people are doing better, then you know you could improve that bit. Possibly using their style, possibly inventing something new, but something to improve nonetheless.

Laz

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by SteelCaress at 2003-12-25 08:34:24
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A scathing review of a book I enjoyed, and actually drew inspiration from. Of course, some of the material was more relevant when it first came out, but that's when I bought it.

This is before the days of Second Edition D&D, when I had already soured on D&D, anyway.

Role-Playing Mastery was interesting to me, because it was the thoughts of the man who practically invented the hobby. He was not necessarily the first to game that way, but he was the first to publish a game that became more than a cottage industry. And inspired countless others.

His input was welcome to me.

And useful. Basically saying to master it, you be part of the larger community out there, become interested in the real world instead of just those imaginary ones. At the time, being an escapist teen, it was an eye-opener.

I was interested in some of the concepts of Mythus and Lejendary Lives, as well, which showcased how he'd matured as a designer.

The man made money from something he enjoyed, and spent his time being relentlessly screwed by the company he helped found.

Maybe the book's not as relevant anymore, but it *was* the mid 80's!

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Bubbalin at 2003-12-25 10:49:25
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I don't know, have you read it recently? I found some of it very patronising... But then, that's me.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Bubbalin at 2003-12-25 11:00:30
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Did i say that? Because if I did, I surely didn;t mean it. I agree that getting out in the community is what is needed.
If you are referring to the following paragraph. Let me explain myself.

Chapter nine on ‘Mastery on a Grad Scale’ may as well be advertising for the RPGA and its tournaments. The author is very keen for people to be actively involved in the hobby beyond their group, an presses this frequently, advising GMs that they are not masters unless they have contributed something to a public forum. (Hah, take that Gygax. This is my contribution) He also advises players to watch other play and themselves play in RPGA tournaments. After all, it’s always better to know that others think you’re better endowed than the next player. I mean, if you don’t take it out and compare it around, how will you know you’re good? Apparently these excellent players are the ones that wear down GMs because if their innovative ideas. I guess I can swallow that… The chapter ends on a not of ‘encouragement’ about striving as hard as possible to see where you get… Yep, whatever.

What I meant to say in this is that I feel there is no need to go out and compare roleplaying ability, because that's just sabre rattling. Like I said, this is my contribution to the community. I feel that the community needs to communicate nd interract as any community, but I find that comparisons of ability are not beneficial and lead to the whole, 'I'm bigger/more powerful/stronger/whatever than you', which isn't helpful.
So yeah, I agree with you. I tihnk we might ahve got some wires crossed on this.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Bubbalin at 2003-12-25 11:03:28
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I feel I should clarify this statement. I do not pretend to have spent as much time GMing as Gary Gygax, I meant this to say that we seem to spend a similar proportion of time behind the screen.
Anyhow, flame away. :)

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Roy Morgan at 2003-12-25 12:49:29
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Competitions are an excuse to show off? Maybe. Remember, though, this was at a time when many campaigns were still played in the old style, with player prowess measured in XP and war stories. In other words, /competitively/.

Personally, I hate that approach. Last convention game I played was a Deadlands game with several other con-goers. Rather than compare notes on past campaigns, other than in a joking way, we put together our characters and got straight into the game. And I got to see some fantastic roleplayers in action. We laughed, we rolled quite a few polyhedrons, and frankly we had a helluva good time. And we all learned something from each other, too, ways to improve.

Maybe it's not what Gygax had in mind, but it's just as valid a reason to get out and play a few games with some people you might not otherwise meet. Saber rattling? I didn't get that impression.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Bubbalin at 2003-12-25 13:01:08
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Ummm, you really have to read the book and I don't know if you have.

Basically he has this whole thing about how you know you are a master player when you 'win' and RPGA tournament. He talks about judges, etc. Now I confess to having never attended an RPGA tournament ever, and perhaps it has ince changed, but basically his concept of interaction was quite competitive.

Like I said, I agree with interaction. Otherwise I would still be hiding in my house and embracing my solitary geekiness. Oh wait, there's nobody here with me is there. :(
Hehe, anyway. Clarify yourself to me if I misunderstood you.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Tadeusz at 2003-12-25 13:08:18
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Personally, I think that going out and competitively comparing is not that bad an idea. A whole lot of GM's should have their screen taken away from them.

A lot of campaigns are pretty bad, and the players and the GM have no idea that it could be so much better.

That said, I don't like the RPGA. It seems to formalize something that maybe can't be well formalized.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by tedehara at 2003-12-25 14:38:42
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Gary Gygax represents the origins of role-playing, which came from wargaming miniatures. This is a purely competitive environment.

Role-playing would have remained an obscure off-shoot of wargaming except for the influx of players who were drawn in by the story telling qualities of the game. "Lord of the Rings" brought a whole new crowd that never heard of Avalon Hill or ASL.

This can also be seen from the second generation role-playing games like MERP, RuneQuest, RoleMaster, Fantasy Trip and others. These games became more character oriented to accommodate the theatrical/myth/legend/story telling crowd.

I think that G.Gygax saw this book as a vehicle to promote things he wanted to promote. Things he was familiar with. As the review pointed out, much of the book has lost its relevance, since much has changed since 1987.

BTW there are more recent books out which also discuss how to improve play. "the Munchkin's Guide to Power Gaming" ISBN 1-55634-347-7, "Game Mastering Secrets" ISBN 0-9668106-0-0, "GameMastering Secrets" ISBN 1-887154-11-6 and "Robin’s Laws of Good Game Mastering" ISBN 1-55634-629-8 are more recent examples.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Sir Knight at 2003-12-25 14:45:25
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Hmm. I gotta wonder about the RPGA sometimes. All I've ever heard about them besides their own paid ads has been negative, and sometimes very negative (which sounds pretty one-sided, but might also say something about the organization. Lacking another side to the story besides glowing ads, I can't really tell who's right). The whole Living City thing has been labeled as farcical and pedestrian by critics, with badly written official products and stiff, real-world consequences (read 'penalties') for character behavior in-game and in-character. The Living Force experience for the Star Wars D20 game seems to be written to similar standards (though I've never seen any reviews for Living Force). This sounds to me like an admonishment to stay away, stay far away.

The only Role-playing tournament I've played in besides a Deadlands event a few years back was a knightly tournament played to D&D 3rd rules (Wizards of the Coast products only). The entire event was competitive, and everyone knew it from the start. The entry fee of $20 ensured that the half-hearted weren't interested, and the prize was a replica sword from the film "A Knight's Tale". The whole event was themed from that film, and every character brought to the table needed a herald to announce them (we played our own heralds) and a set of entrance music for the first appearence in each event. We competed for first and second place in the joust, the sword on foot, and the mace on foot. All characters were 10th level, no magic allowed, and the ability to ride and participate in mounted combat was an absolute must.

It was quite a show. We had an uneven number of players, and at least twice a knight came out of the loser's bracket to win first place (the joust and the sword). Every character was somewhat unique, and the whole thing came down to a joust-off to take the final prize. Although there was only one winner in the end, all of the players hung around to see who the final winner would be. Everybody was on the edge of their chairs, cheering the criticals and wincing in sympathy at the critical failures right to the very last die roll, and not one player went home disappointed at having come to the contest.

This, in my opinion, may very well be the best kind of Role-playing competitive game. Everyone knows that it's a competition from the very beginning, and no one has an unfair advantage in a more experienced character or Brian Van Hoose style metagaming and rules-lawyering. So there's no conflict between the people who are there to tell in-character stories and the ones who are there to garner tons of experience points and swag at the expense of their tablemates. While cross-purposes may make for good stories, if they aren't played properly they can destroy groups and turn a fun game into a vicious argument. I really don't think people go to conventions to shout at each other, so it seems to me that this kind of conflict should be avoided, for the good of everyone. But I can't speak for everyone.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Roy Morgan at 2003-12-25 15:17:39
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Okay. Clarifying...

Personally, I don't disagree with your take on RPGA or its competitions. At the time this book was written, though, such tournaments were among the largest organized role-playing gatherings in the world. Since his game was the game of choice for such tournaments, Gygax probably felt nothing else was worth talking about (we've seen Gary's ego in action, right? ;), and that such tournaments were the ultimate test of playing and gamemastering skill. Heck, in the AD&D games of the time, the style was often /very/ competitive between GM and players, and even between the players themselves (and I can say that from experience as a long-time AD&D player). But then, it's been fifteen-plus years since this book was written. Time have changed, and for that we may be truly thankful. The more storytelling-oriented mindset that it seems like you (and I) embrace really was only in its infancy when this book was written.

My point was that there's more than just tournaments out there. I don't personally see convention games and comparing roleplaying styles as just an excuse to prove who is better. We all have our own styles, but seeing others in action often does point out ways in which we can improve. Not to dominate the field, but to make the experience more enjoyable for everyone, including ourselves, from either side of the screen. Personally, I think that's more important than 'winning'.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Roy Morgan at 2003-12-25 15:30:17
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Personally, as I said above, I've got nothing against comparing styles of play. Not even in a competitive environment, as long as the atmosphere remains friendly, or at least professional. But after the jumping-up-and-down, screaming, 5#!+-fit-throwing exhibitions I've seen in some competitive games, I've lost my taste for them. I mean, aren't we in this to have fun? Then again, maybe these players' idea of fun was acting like a stereotypical Little-League parent watching The Big Game. Who knows?

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by megasquidd at 2003-12-25 19:05:04
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well put, sir... and understood. Happy holidays.

Mike

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Disenchanted at 2003-12-25 20:11:04
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"Since he has been GM-ing since the early 70s, and you've been playing since 2000, I would suggest that you are nowhere close."

Some people who have played with Gygax as a GM would argue that his many years behind the screen haven't tought him much. Fire Giants executing barrel rolls? 'Nuff said.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Bubbalin at 2003-12-26 01:43:40
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Hehe, thanks.

Hope you had a good Christmas too.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Bubbalin at 2003-12-26 01:48:09
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"Game Mastering Secrets" ISBN 0-9668106-0-0, "GameMastering Secrets" ISBN 1-887154-11-6

Is this, or at least one of them the recent release by Grey Ghost?

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Bubbalin at 2003-12-26 01:59:08
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I would say that is closer to wargaming and not really roleplaying...

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Bubbalin at 2003-12-26 02:00:50
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And you know, in many ways you can see your character as 'your baby'
I would even argue that such behaviours are related psychologically. :)

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Sergio Mascarenhas at 2003-12-26 05:53:45
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Yes, there's the question of the tone and the point that lead you to write the clarification. But these are only simptoms of the real problem. And that's the fact that your review is anacronic.

I mean, the book was written in 1987. And you read the book in 2003. Like if it had been published today. This is the same as reviewing a Ford T today and saying that the car is a joke since it has no power straring, no A/C, the suspension is almost non-existant, etc.

So, here goes the suggestion: when in the future you review books published long ago either you take into account their history and their historical importance; or, if you are not able to do this because you were not there (as you say, you only got into the hobby in 200) or were not able to document yourself, by stating that the book as almost nothing to offer now (which may be true) but you are not able to judge if it had when it was first published. If you go this way, you will drop the condescending tone because you will realize it makes no sense.

Sergio

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Bubbalin at 2003-12-28 14:48:18
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Is that I can make neither head nor tail of your comment here.

Sergio Mascarenhas wrote:
-------------------------------
So, here goes the suggestion: when in the future you review books published long ago either you take into account their history and their historical importance; or, if you are not able to do this because you were not there (as you say, you only got into the hobby in 200) or were not able to document yourself, by stating that the book as almost nothing to offer now (which may be true) but you are not able to judge if it had when it was first published. If you go this way, you will drop the condescending tone because you will realize it makes no sense.

But from what I think I understand. Yes, this interiew is biased by the time that has passed. I freely acknowledge that. However I Believe I am still justified in disagreeing with what seems to be fundamental beliefs stated in this work.
Besides, with what do we judge great works of literature, but with their timeless quality and the truths they speak to us many generations after their authors have passed? I ask you to consider this.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Sergio Mascarenhas at 2003-12-29 23:59:26
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<< But from what I think I understand. Yes, this interiew is biased by the time that has passed. I freely acknowledge that. >>

This was my first point. And no, you didn't acknowledge that in the review, and you should. I read the review and didn't notice until I looked at the date of publication that it was an old book.

<< However I Believe I am still justified in disagreeing with what seems to be fundamental beliefs stated in this work. >>

You are. But you are not justified in the terms you presented your disagreement. (Notice that I am neither an admirer of Gygax or D&D. I am not being partisan.)

There was a simple fix, though. You could have said 'this book may have been ground-breaking when it was published (I was not there to see it so I cannot judge if this is true or not) but it certainly has little to offer today.'
As simple as this.

<< Besides, with what do we judge great works of literature, but with their timeless quality and the truths they speak to us many generations after their authors have passed? I ask you to consider this. >>

Of course. On the other hand, the book you described (and I didn't read and don't plan to do, in part because of your main comments that are, when deprieved of the side comments, sound) is not literature. It belongs to a genre that tends to become outdated fast.

Sergio