[RPG]: 2003 24 Hour RPGs, reviewed by Evan (5/5)

[RPGnet Reviews]

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/10/10542.phtml

Evan's Summary:

Here are reviews of all the 2003 submissions for the 24 hour RPG challenge! Some rock, some roll, take a look and see what I thought of them all.

Go to the full review (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/10/10542.phtml) for more information.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Philip Reed at 2004-08-09 06:28:36
Converted from Phorums BB System

Thanks for the review! That was cool that you went though and reviewed all of those.

I'm expecting the printed edition of vs. Monsters in the next day or two and will start shipping orders on Saturday.

There are still copies of the limited boxed set available. $30 for two books, cards, and a box.

http://www.philipjreed.com/roninarts/product_info.php?products_id=50&osCsid=e76771b72d6212eb883890d197358e3b

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by NPC at 2004-08-09 07:18:16
Converted from Phorums BB System

I thought a large part of the 24 hr RPG was to include a fully fleshed out system AND setting for the game, all laid out and ready to go, in 24 hours.

I was surprised to see very high marks given to an amazing game that specifically lacked a setting of any kind - building a set of mechanics is only half of the game design process, creating a setting that is a compelling reason to USE those mechanics is far more work.

I agree that the game has an EXCELLENT mechanic, but without a setting, it seems like a half-complete product.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Eero Tuovinen at 2004-08-09 08:17:16
Converted from Phorums BB System

Well, that'd be your opinion. I see no reason to limit a "complete roleplaying game" to mean games with settings. Consider GURPS, Hero System, D&D and a plethora of other games, if you will. That's just an arbitrary limitation, like demanding that every game should include character creation. Which incidentally some don't.

- E.T.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Simon W at 2004-08-09 12:19:15
Converted from Phorums BB System

I was asked at The Forge about the lack of an experience system, lack of further info about hero points and other bits and pieces that needed clarification/expansion.

I have an updated version of 1940 - England Invaded on the 24 Hour RPG group, which addresses some of these issues.

(Hero Points are now Bulldog Spirit, skills are better explained and instead of 'generic' weapon stats, I have now included actual WW2 weapons of the day).

I have playtested the game too - and it works fine and I have several scenarios ready to type up and a sample setting too.

Incidentally, there is a TV series running on British TV at the moment called 'Island at War' which is based on a fictional Channel Island, taken over by the Germans in WW2. It is absolutely perfect setting material for my rpg and some of the ideas will leak their way into my next update.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by James D. Hargrove at 2004-08-09 12:24:53
Converted from Phorums BB System

More importantly, it's not a requirement of the 24 Hour RPG event. And than GOD. If it were, it would severely limit the creativity of the contributors. For instance, my 2004 entry (Roguelike) has absolutely no pre-defined setting - players define it during the game. ;)

Sincerely,
James D. Hargrove

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by James D. Hargrove at 2004-08-09 12:27:31
Converted from Phorums BB System

I just wanted to say thank you for the fairly generous mark that you gave Dreamweaver (it's a pretty tiny game). Someday I hope to expand it, but I'm waiting on that as it has a pretty limited market appeal.

Incidentally, if anybody wonders, there are two other "Twenty Minute" games, but they never really made it past the layout stage. Someday I'll get around to posting them as free downloads.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Andrzej Jarzabek at 2004-08-09 12:31:18
Converted from Phorums BB System

It severely decreases the "ready to pick up and play" factor however. Deciding on a setting and who the player characters are are two more things to do before beginning play.

Basic D&D assumes heroes exploring a dungeon in a generic fantasy setting and GURPS is nowhere ready to pick up and play.

Andrzej

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by James D. Hargrove at 2004-08-09 12:53:36
Converted from Phorums BB System

You're mistaken. A role-playing game can exist without a pre-defined, fully detailed setting, thus having such a setting is not a requirement of entries in the 24 Hour RPG event.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Michael P O'Sullivan at 2004-08-09 14:53:54
Converted from Phorums BB System

for the two or three of you out there that have read and enjoyed the 24hour RPG version of Criminal Element, or the gamers that want to try out a new crime/caper RPG that is light on mechanics and plays well for both one-shots and campaign-style play, there is a new updated and redisigned version of Criminal Element available at my website, www.fullmotor.net . Please head on down that way, download and enjoy.

And a thank you to Evan, our reviewer. You pretty much hit the nail on the head with your review of my original version of CE. i was very concerned about making sure that the system was well explained and easy to pick up, so i spent most of time with the game working on that rather than the bells and whistles of art and character sheets and stuff. in retrospect, i probably should have jazzed up the look of it a little, seeing as how the layout and design of a game is one of the easiest ways of getting across your ideas about setting and color. then again, i pretty much made the same mistake all over again this year on my new 24 hour RPG, the Operation. some people never learn, eh?

If any of you budding creators out there want to really see what you've got, have a look at creating a 24 hour rpg. they're fun as hell and you really learn alot about your process through this creative crucible. check it out at www.24hourrpg.com

thanks all!

-mposullivan
www.fullmotor.net
the home of Criminal Element

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Evan at 2004-08-09 16:18:18
Converted from Phorums BB System

It is a fair comment that I did not penalize PACE for "pick up and play" considerations, but I did other, setting specific games.

My reasoning here is based on my read of the intent of the piece. The challenge is to write an RPG in 24 hours, but does not present any other goals. I make the assumption based on my reading of the style of the peice as to what kind of rpg it is trying to be, and judge it on that criteria.

So, PACE was trying to be a FUDGE / GURPS type universal system, so I judged it for completeness against that criteria. Most of the setting specific ones I deemed to be aimed at "pick up and play as one-off or ongoing short games", and judged them as such.

I think that both styles are valid 24 hour rpgs, and I think that doing a universal system right is just as hard, perhaps more so, than a setting specific system. I think PACE has done it so well that it has set a very high benchmark for any future attempts at a generic system in this forum.

Evan

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Evan at 2004-08-09 18:07:08
Converted from Phorums BB System

I had a lot of trouble figuring out how to judge it, given that a different ruleset applies. In the end, I went with just applying the same criteria I had to the other games in exactly the same way. Which probably pushed the mark up a bit, since only 5/30 points are awarded for completeness. Having said that, It is actually remarkably complete for something done in 20 minutes, thus it scores a point there even compared to the others.

And you are welcome. :)

Evan

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Evan at 2004-08-09 18:13:15
Converted from Phorums BB System

You're welcome. :)

I tossed up how much to judge polish over the other elements, and ended up with about 1/3 of the overall score. It is a very important element, not just having the ideas, but presenting them in a way people want to read and see. Which I must admit, my 2004 entry suffers somewhat from the lack of... What looks good at 1am after 8 hours of writing is a different beast to what looks good after a good night's rest! And that is part of the challenge, I think.

Warm regards,

Evan

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by James D. Hargrove at 2004-08-09 18:28:08
Converted from Phorums BB System

Again, thanks. Most of the games I design tend to be pretty minimalist (a reflection of my personal tastes), so this year's Roguelike (which is pretty crunchy when compared to a lot of my other stuff) is a new direction for me.

Sincerely,
James D. Hargrove

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by access.denied at 2004-08-10 00:47:06
Converted from Phorums BB System

On the other hand, it increases the game's suitability to run campaigns based on personal idiosyncratic settings, which is certainly a passtime that many groups engage in. If a game offers a setting already integrated with the rules, then such a campaign has to first deal with ditching/replacing those integrated rules.
It's all in the expected use.
Similarly, would you deduct points for not having pregenerated characters available for the whole party? After all, it also decreases the "ready to pick up and play" factor.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Andrzej Jarzabek at 2004-08-10 01:11:40
Converted from Phorums BB System



access.denied wrote:
-------------------------------
On the other hand, it increases the game's suitability to run campaigns based on personal idiosyncratic settings, which is certainly a passtime that many groups engage in. If a game offers a setting already integrated with the rules, then such a campaign has to first deal with ditching/replacing those integrated rules.
It's all in the expected use.
-------------------------------

Sometimes you compromise "pick up and play" for flexibility. But often "ditching" can just mean ignoring a chapter or two, and that does not require much work or time.

-------------------------------
Similarly, would you deduct points for not having pregenerated characters available for the whole party? After all, it also decreases the "ready to pick up and play" factor.
-------------------------------

In a way it does, and I would indeed give extra marks for completeness to a game which has pregenrated characters.

Also, the character creation process is often regarded a part of the game itself, and not just preparations for the game.

Andrzej

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Andrzej Jarzabek at 2004-08-10 01:27:46
Converted from Phorums BB System

Fair enough. You might want to change the "Completness" mark definition, which you stated in your review. As is, it appears like PACE got its Completeness mark unfairly.

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Fred Hicks at 2004-08-10 07:21:24
Converted from Phorums BB System

Evan wrote:
-------------------------------
My reasoning here is based on my read of the intent of the piece. The challenge is to write an RPG in 24 hours, but does not present any other goals. I make the assumption based on my reading of the style of the peice as to what kind of rpg it is trying to be, and judge it on that criteria.
-------------------------------

Above all, I was trying to make a game that was very fast, and a setting that takes you more than a sentence to describe kinda cheats that.

I'll grant, if I were going to do more with Pace outside of a 24-Hour context, I'd probably put in a page full of one-sentence settings.

Two settings I've heard of used (one of which I played in) in Pace games, if you like:

* Four-color supers game with the action centered around a team of misfits.

* Cowboy Bebop meets Neuromancer on the streets of a future Dystopolis.

Go! Pick your descriptors! Play! Keep up the Pace!

-- Fred

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Fred Hicks at 2004-08-10 07:34:13
Converted from Phorums BB System

Thanks much for your reviews of all the games.

For anyone interested, I have my current version of Pace (not much changed from the 24-hour one) available at http://www.evilhat.com/pace/

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Ron Edwards at 2004-08-10 10:02:01
Converted from Phorums BB System

Top marks for Criminal Element as a 24-hour game, and I think it would be a fantastic product with a little more system baking, especially for what I like to call IIEE.

Given that, it's the best caper-blows-up role-playing system I've ever played. Great stuff.

Best,
Ron

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Ron Edwards at 2004-08-10 10:04:35
Converted from Phorums BB System

In my play-experience, the effort involved in providing a session of PACE with a setting consisted of two sentences on my part, and a resounding "Yeah!" from the players.

In other words, I think the game *does* have a setting, specifically whatever you want to use that's suitable for its frying-pan-fire mechanic. Establishing the setting is that fast and easy to do.

Best,
Ron

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Ron Edwards at 2004-08-10 10:05:06
Converted from Phorums BB System

Wonderful game. Highly recommended.

Best,
Ron

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Evan at 2004-08-10 15:37:42
Converted from Phorums BB System

That's a fair call. I will probably do exactly that for my next reviews.

I will add that I do not think that setting is essential to "pick up and play", a fact that PACE actually exemplifies. Interestingly I found that Criminal Element (which is as close to a similar game as this years submissions gave IMO) needed some plot hooks, game ideas or setting notes, whereas I think PACE does not. I think this is a situation where the mechanics of the piece actually reinforce the game enough that style overides setting in terms of relevance and necesity.

Thanks for your input!

Evan

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Evan at 2004-08-10 15:41:28
Converted from Phorums BB System

With respect, I disagree.

I think PACE has Meta-Style, and this allows setting to to be plugged in so quickly as to make setting an irrelevant concern to "pick up and play"-ability.

But I am quibbling. :)

Evan

[RPGnet Reviews]

Post originally by Fred Hicks at 2004-08-11 07:38:28
Converted from Phorums BB System

Y'all have at least made it clear that my next revision of Pace, if I get around to one, needs to have a one-page list of one-sentence settings.

You know, I just realized something about the settings I offered in my original "Author's Perspective" posting ... they could, with a little shift of view, read more or less like "hollywood exec" level movie pitches.

So maybe that's how to talk about settings and Pace: they're pitches, rather than the full-blown "setting" concept ("We're going to play a supers game using Pace -- it's Dark Knight Returns meets Mystery Men.")

Hm!