Who can tell me about Tunnels and Trolls?

[skullmaster]

I was hoping that someone here could run down for me how Tunnels and Trolls worked? I never found the game when I was looking for it over 15 years ago and I gave up interest. However, I figured since I was in the company of some very knowledgable gamers here, I might get the low down on it. I think it was D20 and very D&Desque from what I gathered, but I want some nitty gritty, if you know what I mean? Thanx :)

[MattyHelms]

This recent review sums it up nicely (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11474.phtml).

There's also the great oft-quoted Ron Edwards post about T&T that really captures what the game is about:

T&T wants nothing to do with verisimilitude - it's all about strategy. You've got attributes, weapons, armor, and spells. Fighting's all about what weapon and armor you've got (attribute dependent), magic is all about your Strength resources. Effectiveness is all about your Strength, Dexterity, and Luck.

Levels just add to your attributes. Money pays for more spells, more armor, and more weapons. (That's right, never mind "learning" spells. Buy them. Get over it.) Your characters will die, probably. Make up a few and make sure that the dead characters' maps make it topside so your new ones can use them.

What makes all of this more interesting than a mere statistical grind is what the rules call, in their 1979 blessed innocence, "Saving Rolls." They are not frigging Saving Rolls - they are attribute checks. You have seven attributes and the Saving Roll rules apply all the time, in the most open-ended, mind-bogglingly flexible task resolution system ever.

Let me illustrate - my li'l 2nd level fighter stares in horror at the balrog. If we use the Weapon + Adds vs. Monster Rating method (the standard system), my character gets roasted and eaten post-haste. But I can come up with any strategic action, base it reasonably off any attribute that makes sense, and the GM will assign me a "Saving Roll" at some difficulty level. If I make it, we just ignore the combat system and carry on with whatever I wanted to do. Maybe my character jumps onto the balrog's head and then hops off behind him (DEX). Maybe he suddenly sells him a used sword (IQ). Maybe it's a chick balrog and ... (CHR).

Way before "raises" in L5R. Way before skill checks and skill lists. Way before so-called free-form role-playing or any silliness about roll/role. It's all right there.

Yesterday, the hobbit character made a DEX "saving roll" during a fight scene, in hopes of slicing a hand off a foe, at the player's request. She succeeded. During the next round, the player stated that the character *chases the other bandits around with the hand* during combat.

I awarded her another Saving Roll, this one on Charisma, to see if the character was so obnoxious such that the other player-characters got free shots at the bandits. She succeeded.

Dude, this game is ... unspeakably simple (and even bloody-minded), and yet as you play, this incredible secondary system kicks in and you suddenly realize that Amber and Over the Edge had merely re-invented or simply drawn attention to elements of an already-existing wheel ...


Anyway, the currently available 5.5 edition is the classic 5th edition from 25 years ago with some extra bits tacked on at the end. Fiery Dragon Productions has a new edition (http://www.fierydragon.com/tunnelsandtrolls/index.htm) being released to retail in the next month or so which sounds cool.

-Matt

[Tim Kirk]

I was hoping that someone here could run down for me how Tunnels and Trolls worked? I never found the game when I was looking for it over 15 years ago and I gave up interest. However, I figured since I was in the company of some very knowledgable gamers here, I might get the low down on it. I think it was D20 and very D&Desque from what I gathered, but I want some nitty gritty, if you know what I mean? Thanx :)

Well no.
*L*
Basically put it was very Dungeon crawl esque but not very "D20" since it predated the whole D20 thing by about 20 years, it had classes, it had levels, it had stats. It had attribute derived saving throws which powered most things in the game from missile combat, to dodges to any non-melee actions. Combat was quick and dirty combined dice rolls on both sides with the loser taking the difference of dice+additives from the higher side and their own side (meaning if an enemy was better than you they won and kept winning).

Warriors got perks with arms and armor, Wizards got spells Rogues got neither perks with arms or armor, nor got spells to begin with but could eventuallly use both and that rounded the initial classes unless you got really lucky with dice and got a starting Warrior-Wizard who was what Rogues sort of evolved into over time anyway.

If you think D&D's weapons list was obscure and strange T&T had misericord and terbutje, among their lists you could choose...

The basic rolls were typically roll Xdice under an attribute as a saving roll the more dice the harder it was with 4dice (4d6) being harder than 3 dice and so on and combat adds were based on attributes and weapons modifiers that determined the dice you rolled to generate your totals to beat the monsters dice (which were based on a singular number monster rating although a GM could stat out a monster more fully like a PC if he really wanted to.)

[Laughing Cow Cheese]

It's what D&D used to be way in the very beginning. Much simpler than any RPG out now, much easier to get started and to introduce other new players. Pure dungeon crawls, so if you like the "retro" feel, it's a hell of lot easier than Hackmaster.

Don't let the Edwards quote scare you. I find it to be an excellent family game when you have a range of ages and experiences among your players. Let the young'us have the same primitive monster killing experiences that we oldsters had back in the day.

[skullmaster]

No stats list?

IQ
Str
Dex
Chr
?
?
?

Extra variables (Luck)?

No average human scores?

I like what I've heard so far though, thanx.

[BigJackBrass]

The basic rolls were typically roll Xdice under an attribute as a saving roll the more dice the harder it was with 4dice (4d6) being harder than 3 dice and so on and combat adds were based on attributes and weapons modifiers that determined the dice you rolled to generate your totals to beat the monsters dice (which were based on a singular number monster rating although a GM could stat out a monster more fully like a PC if he really wanted to.)

Just a small correction: Saving Rolls in T&T are always done using the same number of dice; it's the target number that changes.

T&T was the game that introduced Luck, and it's important for Saving Rolls and combat. It's an attribute, rather than being "Luck Points" or similar.

The basic rulebook actually has far more information on what to do beyond the dungeon than most people seem to remember, so don't imagine that it's all dungeon crawling. There are even rules for firearms, hit location, berserkers and making weapons and armour from non-standard equipment, so you should find plenty to be getting on with.

If you can't find a copy anywhere else I'd suggest either eBay (copies appear there all the time) or direct from www.flyingbuffalo.com rather than necessarily waiting for the Fiery Dragon edition. The fact that the new version has two largely conflicting sets of rules included - Ken St Andre was apparently not happy with the way the Fiery Dragon people proposed to change some of the fundamental aspects of the system - makes me wonder just how standard the new edition will become.

[skullmaster]

Just a small correction: Saving Rolls in T&T are always done using the same number of dice; it's the target number that changes.

T&T was the game that introduced Luck, and it's important for Saving Rolls and combat. It's an attribute, rather than being "Luck Points" or similar.

The basic rulebook actually has far more information on what to do beyond the dungeon than most people seem to remember, so don't imagine that it's all dungeon crawling. There are even rules for firearms, hit location, berserkers and making weapons and armour from non-standard equipment, so you should find plenty to be getting on with.

If you can't find a copy anywhere else I'd suggest either eBay (copies appear there all the time) or direct from www.flyingbuffalo.com rather than necessarily waiting for the Fiery Dragon edition. The fact that the new version has two largely conflicting sets of rules included - Ken St Andre was apparently not happy with the way the Fiery Dragon people proposed to change some of the fundamental aspects of the system - makes me wonder just how standard the new edition will become.

This old school game gets more interesting with every post. I wonder how well they got it all those years ago?

[grubman]

The basic rulebook actually has far more information on what to do beyond the dungeon than most people seem to remember, so don't imagine that it's all dungeon crawling. There are even rules for firearms, hit location, berserkers and making weapons and armour from non-standard equipment, so you should find plenty to be getting on with.
.

It's probably not fair to mention it, since they will be very hard to find, but there was a (proffesional) magazine for T&T in the day called Sorcerers Apprentice. This was loaded with goodies and tidbits about taking your T&T game in all kinds of directions (articles in T&T talked about all kinds of conversions, genre, and settings, like Call of Cuthulhu years before there even was a CoC game). T&T was a pioneer in a lot of things, of course it's hard not to be when your the 2nd ever RPG.

T&T was also pretty infamous for houserules, a lot of modified T&T games actually became games all thier own. The most famous were Monsters! Monsters! and Mike Stackpoles excellent Mercenaries, Spies & Private Eyes, but there were also shorter lived clasics like Keepers of Lingusia (by our very own Tori Bergquist 1986) and Dimensions & Doors.

While D&D was pretty much focused on Fantasy, T&T really explored all the possibilities of things that could be done with a game. A lot of game designers and authors are younger now, but a lot of the older guys I find inspiring have a background with T&T (if nothing but nostolgic).

When I was helping to playtest C&C and got a chance to talk to Davis in person (a most excellent guy by the way, wish I could role play with him and Stephen!) we talked a lot about T&T. At the point C&C was almost ready to go, but was at a slight sticking spot just needing the spit and polish. I think that reminding Davis about T&T and what those games felt like was the push he needed to get C&C completed and completed right. I think reminding Davis about T&T was what got me the "special thanks" at the beginning of the book (a nice suprise :)).

[BabbageCliologic]

I was hoping that someone here could run down for me how Tunnels and Trolls worked? I never found the game when I was looking for it over 15 years ago and I gave up interest. However, I figured since I was in the company of some very knowledgable gamers here, I might get the low down on it. I think it was D20 and very D&Desque from what I gathered, but I want some nitty gritty, if you know what I mean? Thanx :)

Hello Skullmaster:

You can find most of the rules online at the folllowing websites (including a lot of adventure ideas and house-rules). Check them out, print them out, read them and gather some friends to game.


T&T Wiki: http://thor.acedragon.co.uk/tntwiki

T&T Wiki: http://thor.acedragon.co.uk/tntwiki

T&T Wiki RULES: http://thor.acedragon.co.uk/tntwiki/Main/Rules

Ken St. Andre: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/9921/

Aaron's T&T Page: http://www.geocities.com/~athorne/trolls/

Hobgoblin's Tavern: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/angora/index.html

T&T Flavor Pack: http://www.meetgamers.com/tandt/

T&T Centre: http://www.douglas.eckhart.btinternet.co.uk/page12.html

T&T Corner: http://eposic.org/rpg/tnt/

Gristlegrim Dungeon: http://www.dekh.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/gristlegrim/

Goblin Waters Dungeon: http://www.garenewing.co.uk/tnt/goblinwaters.html

Trollhala: http://www.trollhalla.com/


Then, after it sucks you totally in, go out and buy:

5.5 from Flying Buffalo (http://www.flyingbuffalo.com/tandt.htm) and

7.0 from Fiery Dragon (http://www.fierydragon.com/tunnelsandtrolls/index.htm)

Good luck and fun Delving!

/BC

[skullmaster]

BabbageCliologic, You Rock!!! Thanx for the links, it's a T&T heaven.

[Tori Bergquist]

The basic T&T system can be summarized in a few paragraphs: Roll 3d6 for your Strength, Dexterity, IQ, Constitution, Charisma and Luck. Pick a class (Rogue, Warrior, Wizard) and a race (elf, dwarf, halfling, faerie, leprechaun or a monster if GM allows it) and apply attribute multipliers (i.e. X2/3 for Con and X2 for Dex for an elf, maybe). Figure your adds (+1 for each 13 or better Str, Dex, LK, -1 for each 8 or less), but double your Dex adds for missile weapons. Roll 3d6 x10 for gold. Buy some cool stuff and strange weapons (I like the Madu shield with a robust Adze or Sax myself). Find a dungeon and start the looting and hacking.

When hacking and looting, you take the dice+adds of your weapon, add them to the adds of your persona, and that's your hit total. The monster might have a lot of detail, too, but the quick system is MR (Monster Rating) and is a single number. Say an Orc has MR 32. You use this to figure hits (32), dice (4, 1 per 10 MR essentially) and adds (16, or 1/2 of MR). So you roll your dice and adds and the GM roll's monster dice and adds....low number is loser, and the difference is taken in hits (your Con score); if you have armor, it absorbs some of that hopefully.

When doing stunts, avoiding traps, performing acrobatics, or trying for a quick kill or fancy combat maneuver (or shooting ranged weapons), you make saving rolls (SRs). A saving roll is given a level. Level 1 SRs have a difficulty of 20 minus the relevant stat. The difference is the number you roll on 2d6 (doubles add and roll over) to win, with a minimum difficulty of 5 no matter what. Each extra level of difficulty adds 5 to the SR, so for example a L4 SR on Luck would be 35 - your Luck number.....beat that and win. The doubles add and roll over rule can be very important.

When you gain a level, you may add a variable number based on the level you just gained to your stats (for example, 2Xlevel gained to LK, or 1Xlevel gained to Str). Oh, and wizards get spells, which are powered by Str points (or Power pts in the new appended rules to 5.5). Rogues can cast spells, but are not as good at it. Spells have fun names, such as "Take That You Fiend." TTYF is T&T's version of "Magic Missile," but much more effective. Need to charm someone? "Yassa Massa" will do the trick. Death Spell #9 is an old fave of mine, too. Oh, and check any knee-jerk PC nonsense at the door with these spell names; its humor, folks!

Okay, that, in a nut-shell, is the T&T rules system. Everything else is just details, details, details. Enjoy!
--Long time old T&T fan ;)

[grubman]

BabbageCliologic, You Rock!!! Thanx for the links, it's a T&T heaven.

That's cool, but if you like it you should really pick up a hard copy. Flying Buffalo is really a neat company that has survived by the seat of it's pants. There stuff is really proportionately cheaper than most companies.

[BabbageCliologic]

That's cool, but if you like it you should really pick up a hard copy. Flying Buffalo is really a neat company that has survived by the seat of it's pants. There stuff is really proportionately cheaper than most companies.

Hello Grubman,

That's why I said at the end of my message for Skullmaster to go buy 5.5 from Flying Buffalo and 7.0 from Fiery Dragon. Support the company!

I personally own 2 box copies of Tunnels and Trolls - a 5.0 color box and one of the black boxes with gold print versions (is that 3?), as well as the Island of Darksmoke and some of the solo adventures and Corgi books, and I don't regret any of the money I've spent on it!

/BC