Writers vs Artists - double standard?

[Aeonite]

This is bound to raise a few hackles, but I think it's worth discussion. Here goes:

A writer trying to break into any industry is invited to submit their work for free until they build up a portfolio, whereupon they are invited to earn payment in copies and mentions until they get a few published credits, after which point they might be lucky to earn a few cents a word which they might not see for 90 to 180 days after publication, if it occurs, and they are typically required to give up any and all rights to their work forevermore in exchange for all that hassle.

Artists, on the other hand, aren't treated nearly as badly. Right from the start, a talented artist will be sought after for work, and will be offered money for their work almost from the get-go. A beginning artist can demand 25 to 50 dollars for a single piece of artwork and get it easily. Rights are often shared by the artist, and at the very least they are entitled to reprint the artwork on their own site as part of their portfolios.

Why is it that writers get the shaft, in this or any industry? Is it because of the attitude that anyone can write, and therefore, they're not worth as much?

And if I'm horribly mistaken about this double standard, please, correct me. I'd love to learn where I, as a writer, can bring my talent and earn a decent income doing what I love, without slogging through the trenches selling my soul for the next 10 years.

[NPC NPC]

The enemy is not artists - its bad publishers and bad payers. Lets not use this forum to vent our frustrations at our own failiure to make the RPG "bigtime" at each other.

Artists do have a hard time - its practically industry practice to "steal" ( ie - never return) original artwork. The competition is immense - art directors are flooded with dross, so the real gems have to work that much harder to get themselves noticed. The figure you quoted for first payment is ludicrous, particularly in the US, where artist are frequently offered less. But if you want to work, very often you have to take it.

Artists are not chased for work - ok maybe very rarely, but I don't know where you got the impression that they are.

Generally getting work involves a large outlay on sample sheets - which are not cheap, and a lot of postage and patience.

The one point I do concede is that it's easier for an artist's work to be assessed quickly. However, that's just the nature of the medium - writing doesn't share the immediacy of an illustration. Them's the breaks.

As a writer you dont have to worry about the reproduction of your work - either its quality or its security- cheap printing can wreck an art piece and hence any rep you may have earned from it. Writing is usually specifically tied to the subject, where illustrations are much more easily stolen and reproduced with out the artists knowledge.

But all that aside, it is stupid to quarrel amongst freelancers. I've always hated the rivalry between artists. Again the enemy is bad publishers, not other writers or artists. If you're not getting work, reassess what you're putting out, don't just have a go at some random target in the same boat

Personally I would rather see this forum used to highlight bad payers, and indeed good payers. That way unscrupulous publishers would maybe have a harder time hiring people they intend to rip off.

Cheers Jon H

[Storn]

I'm a professional freelance artist... and I do feel that it is easier to break into the biz as an artist. I've seen my writer friends struggle a bit more.
But I also know that even before I was a professional, I spent 10 to 20 hours a week on my craft (while being a bike messenger or moving furniture) whereas my writer friends might spend 5 to 10.
Second, I made the time commitment of going to art school and getting a degree in what I do. That was 5 and 1/2 years (counting 2 years of NYU years earlier) of 60 hours a week of art. No writer friend of mine even comes close to those hours.
Now, I work about 35-45 hours per week.

Yes, it is much easier to judge artwork in a few minutes (seconds!) over writing. But I would postulate that if a writer spends 60 hours a week on his craft in school, he/she is going to have some craft under her/his belt and probably be able to get someone to pay for the words being put down.

Lastly, lots of people think they are writers. This is not a slam. Pretty much anyone who is literate is a writer. I'm writing these words now, but I think you would be a fool to pay for them <g>.
Not everyone thinks that they are an artist. My carpenter father has had songs recorded and published as well as a few sports articles on European basketball. He doesn't consider himself a writer, but has recieved money for it... including royalties on what is considered a classic gospel song written in 1977.
So is he or isn't he a writer? He spends his days restoring old houses and only writes when the muse strikes him.
My point is that while competition is horrendous for artist, I agree that there is even more competition for writers. Just more people out there who have the necessary skill set. BUT! I think the way one breaks into either business is by drive and perseverance.
I sent submissions to Dragon magazine for 3 years (about 3 or 4 a year) before getting my first job at that publication.

Just keep on keepin' on!

[Chris Aylott]

> Why is it that writers get the shaft, in this or
> any industry?

As far as writers vs. artists, it's simply that there are more writers than artists. Artists can charge more because they're in great demand and relatively low supply.

I don't think the attitude that "any fool can write" extends into the professional parts of the business. The pros know how hard it is to do good copy. I do think that the price of books and games is driven down by the public perception that "anyone can write a book/game", but that affects everyone in the business and not just writers.

The real reasons writers get treated like crap, IMHO, is because

a) There is a relative oversupply of writers. Lots of people *want* to write, more than anything else in the world. It's a "cool" job, and lots of people write gaming material just to share it with the world. The average writer gets less because there are plenty of average writers out there to hire.

(Above average writers can do very well for themselves, however, and a bestselling writer gets whatever she wants for her work.)

b) That said, some writers put up with a lot of crap that they don't have to put up with.

Aeonite complains that writers are "invited to earn payment in copies and mentions until they get a few published credits". Maybe, but I've never taken that invitation. One of my cardinal rules is "I don't work for free." If a publisher doesn't pay, I go find someone who does.

So, the market isn't great for writers. But a writer with some business sense can make the most of the market he's working in. Seems fair enough for me.

yours,

[Aeonite]

Originally posted by NPC NPC
The enemy is not artists - its bad publishers and bad payers. Lets not use this forum to vent our frustrations at our own failiure to make the RPG "bigtime" at each other.

It was never my intention to turn this into a "writers good, artists bad" sort of debate. Such would not only be futile but misguided. Certainly, all freelancers are in this together.

I'm just trying to inspire dialogue on the topic, since from my point of view, as a writer, it seems easier for an artist to break into the business and find work. Hearing from the other side of the river, so to speak, will no doubt be beneficial to all concerned.

To use a more concrete example to get at my point (which I perhaps didn't make clear earlier): Let's say I want to create and publish an online comic strip. A writer and an artist approach me. The writer is perfectly willing to work for free in writing the strip (script, dialogue, etc.). The artist refuses to work for free and demands a flat rate per strip. And he can get it.

Now, certainly, absolutely this is usually a GOOD business practice. In this regard, artists (at least in my personal experience) have been quite intelligent in defending their own work and demanding fair pay for fair work. I am not assaulting them in any way for this.

Rather, what I'm getting at is that writers are not so aggressive in demanding what they're worth (or what they feel they're worth, value being relative). In most cases, most beginning writers are basically worth nothing to the industry, because they're paid nothing. And I think the reason for this is twofold: first, the industry (or industries) have created a climate in which writers have been devalued to a certain point, and secondly, the writers themselves have become acclimated to this situation, and so are exacerbating their own bad situation.

[Storn]

It is important to remember that writers are were it all begins. Without writers, there is no RPG. RPGs are started, concieved, executed by artists. They simply serve as ways of creating more mood/ ambience or "illustrating" points.

That is a very important job, writing/creating. So, of course the competition for that is going to be extremely furious.

when I was trying to break into comics, I long ago made the decision that I wanted to be a penciller...not an inker. Even though my ink style is fairly strong.
Inking is much, much easier to get work in the comics field than being a penciller. But I wanted to have that intial "say" in how the page was going to be.

Of course, I never made it as a comic book penciller. A little thing called art school turned me into a raving lunatic over a "wee" little media called OIL PAINT.
Soon as I touched Oil Paint, I stopped wanting to be a comic book artist UNLESS I could paint a comic book. But that is a personal story that probably is boring the tears out of you.

[Matt Drake]

Artists are pursued? Crap! I've been sending out portfolios like they were free, and nobody pursues me! I'm lucky if art directors will return e-mails!

And all the artists I've ever had working for me are busting their humps to make ends meet, unless they have day jobs and then they spend all their time working until dawn on projects so they can make deadlines and still get to work on time. And even the guys who are really, really good (like Eric Lofgren, or Jeremy McHugh, or Darrell Langley) aren't getting their due. These guys should be able to turn down projects by now, but instead they work their asses off to get gigs that don't pay enough.

I don't know how it goes for writers. I'm not a writer. But if writers have it worse than artists, holy crap am I glad I draw.

Matt, now frightened of trying to write anything

[MetalMan]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Matt Drake
[B]Artists are pursued? Crap! I've been sending out portfolios like they were free, and nobody pursues me! I'm lucky if art directors will return e-mails!

I actively pursue artists. I do not rely on them to send me anything. I take into consideration of the theme or atmosphere that I want to have the product convey and try to match up artists that way.

I spend a considerable amount of time looking at artist's webpages and links from this forum. Our first product is currently under construction and artists are paid (often in advance if they request it).

Provide me with a link to an online portfolio of your work, Matt. If I like your work and think that it will fit in with what we're doing or what we have planned, I will contact you about rates and scheduling.

[Eric Lofgren]

I've been a self procalimed artist all my life and as such I haven't paid much attention to the writing field. Upon inspection, it does strike me that in this particular industry, RPG that is, it's the writers who are paramount for the success of a game. The artists, who certainly add a certain flourish to the enjoyment of the game, are secondary. Don't get me wrong, I will always endorse illustration as a strong element in any endeavour of the imagination and I plan on doing illustration in one form or another for many years to come, but reading Aeonite's post from "the other camp", so to speak, is certainly an eye opener. I've been loosely involved in a project with him and I was thouroughly impressed with his writing abilty (the back story in this project was a very good read). If talent like this isn't properly rewarded then writer's are to be commended for their dedication and perserverance to their craft.
To sum up, though, I wonder if this situation is an industry glitch that may not exist in other venues. I have looked for opportunities in the printing field in the hopes of landing an illustration job and I have to admit, even though it's only the web I've been searching on and not the traditional way, artists aren't thought of at all. You may see a section for the occasional cover artist, but that's it.
Anyway, I hope to one day not have to worry about this stuff as I'm sure we all do and here's hoping 2k2 is a very prosperous year.

Eric
www.ericlofgren.com

[Jack]

One problem that pops up for writers in the RPG industry (as well as other publishing fields) is the "frustrated editor/developer syndrome". Now a lot of editors and developers can write, and write well. But some can't. And worse, some think that only good writers write as they do and everyone else sucks/needs work/is a rank amateur. Some even (and this is very rare) will not hire people they feel are better than they are if they are still seeking a better writing gig in their organization (as I said, very rare...almost never happens, but it is worth mentioning and BTW art directors can do this too).

To make matters worse, sometimes the holder of the pursestrings does none of the creative work and yet insists on deciding what to pay the writers and artists, and invariably the "pretty pictures they can never return and have framed and hand in their office" win out over "That writing stuff we need some hack to do so we can make money."

After all, "anybody" can write, right? That easy stuff, learned to do that in grade school....

Uh-huh. Sure thing, pal. Learned to draw in grade school too, I just didn't do it well.
So that is a problem..combine this with a bunch of people who really can't write and people that think writing is worth little or no money and you've got all sorts of problems.

[Jon H]

I've already let rip on this one (..what can I say I was having a particularly bad day...apologies to anyone I offended)

But something else to consider is that when a RPG company is set up it's NEVER done by an artist who then has to employ some writers to put the text to his art. (ok, Sovereign Stone may be an exception...)
I'd bet almost all are set up by someone who believes, rightly or wrongly, that they can write, and hence they are going to do as much of that side of things as they can themselves, rather than look out of house.

I'm not sure how many editors like Jack described exist ( though I could have just been lucky). Companies at the outset tend not to have commissioning editors, ( its generally the same guy who set the thing up, who is the main writer) and once they're successful, its not the same guy choosing art OR writing, they have seperate people to do both jobs.

But I could be wrong...

[Rick Hershey]

I have to agree that the majority of rpg publishers are probably started by writers or people who believe themselves to be. But I must disagree with the notion that more writers are competing for work than artists. I worked as an art director for both print and online magazines and have waded through my share of art submissions, and to be honest not many of those submissions showed skill or potential for publishing. As a freelancer I know I'm forced to compete with those same artists, and more than once have seen art in a book and wondered why it was even there. And the payscale mentioned above is not what an artist starting in the business can expect, in fact I find it vary rare that an artist can truelly demand what he should be paid (except for those really good guys- you know who you are!)
Currently I've taken up the mantle of writer, not that I can say I'm any good at it, but my ideas are fresh and my vision strong. In this mode I've been blessed to hire some outstanding artists to work for me, and as an artist I except the fact that the story I'm working on is very visual and will be sold to the public entirely on it's artwork. It's not to say my writing won't be liked, but the mass of the world works entirely on a visual bases, they do judge a book by it's cover.
In the end we are all freelancers and artists, and publishers tend to think of us as tools for their products. It's a hard road for both parties and the fight will be to the end I'm afraid. Competition is tough, and I know the artists i call friends are also the people I fight against for a piece of the pie.

Rick Hershey
EmptyRooms: art of rick hershey (http://www.homestead.com/rickhershey/one.html)
grendalmage@yahoo.com

[Jack]

John H...you've got a good point about the artists never start an rpg. I didn't think of that directly, but it makes sense.

And for all the probs rpg industry people have, comics writers have it worse. Really. I mean, sure there is the exception, but in an age where TV writers and filmmakers are signing up to write comics its a nightmare for the lesser known writer. After all, DC and Marvel have closed their writing submissions (not their art subs however, you can still send art).

Of course, a lot of rpg companies have done the same thing, but at least there are more options.

And its hard not to be cynical about game writers sometimes. After all, a lot of guys who "leave the biz" to "work on their novels/screenplays/whatever" are often exclusively published under the fiction dept of rpg companies or just fade away into other endeavors (not to say they don't do good work and I can't complain much since I fit squarely into the second half for the last few years).

[Jerry D. Grayson]

Originally posted by Jon H
I've already let rip on this one (..what can I say I was having a particularly bad day...apologies to anyone I offended)

But something else to consider is that when a RPG company is set up it's NEVER done by an artist who then has to employ some writers to put the text to his art. (ok, Sovereign Stone may be an exception...)


Funny, that’s exactly what I did. I knew that if I wrote the project all by my lonesome I'd be screwed. Luckily I found a few talented people who polished my 3rd grade writing abilities. I don’t necessarily consider my self an Artist as much as I’m an Illustrator.

I think freelancer in general get paid poorly not just writers. I once worked for a dollar a illustration!!!

[Jack]

Originally posted by Jerry D. Grayson


Funny, that?s exactly what I did. I knew that if I wrote the project all by my lonesome I'd be screwed. Luckily I found a few talented people who polished my 3rd grade writing abilities. I don?t necessarily consider my self an Artist as much as I?m an Illustrator.

I think freelancer in general get paid poorly not just writers. I once worked for a dollar a illustration!!!

That raises an intersting point....I often think even experienced writers should collaborate in some way on games. My latest side project (which will pick up speed if/when my real job slows down) is being done with the aid of a handful of other people. Sure, I could write the whole thing myself...but I think the whole thing will be better if I have a few different POV helping me iron out and refine my ideas.

Also, and this isn't a slam...but what is the difference between an artist and an illustrator..is it anything like the difference between an author and a writer?

[Jon H]

Interesting question, that one. When I first started posting regularly on RPG.net, I would have called myself an illustrator. The vernacular seemed to be to call rpg illustrators artists, so I've just fallen in line with it.

I guess everyone has their own interpretation, and I don't think its that important a distinction.

Personally, I would define an illustrator as an individual who is paid/rewarded to draw what they're told to draw (or paint or whatever) for reproduction usually in connection with text, whereas the broader term "artist" reflects anyone involved in cultural production of pretty much any kind (writers, dancers etc etc) with a specific emphasis on visual fine arts, (sculpture, painting, installation and so on)

All illustrators are therefore artists of some kind, but not all artists are illustrators.

But then again, you're rarely a comic book illustrator, you're a comic book artist!

Cue contradiction::)

[Storn]

Originally posted by Jack
[B

Also, and this isn't a slam...but what is the difference between an artist and an illustrator..is it anything like the difference between an author and a writer? [/B]

My definition is this (dreamwarriors rule!, anyway)...

My definition: An artist is anyone who works in a creative fashion, that could be dance, recording or something visual. It is something that must be practiced and honed repeatedly. Thus, if you dance once a month...you are probably not an artist. If you dance 3x a week...yeah, you probably are.

A visual artist is someone who works with a vocabulary of image.
Painter, sculpter etc.

An Illustrator: Works with a vocabulary of image to SELL something. Sell is not a negative term in this case, as often it thought of. It could be to Sell and Idea, a Product (advertising art). But MOST OFTEN, it is to SELL a STORY. That is why my tagline is "storytelling with images". Lastly, a Fine artist produces work that is sold, such as a portrait, painting etc. An illustrator...sometimes called Commerical artist...is someone who's work tends to be published. Publishing now means a lot more than just books and magazines...so the definition is a bit wider now too.

Fine artists tend not to collaborate. Almost 95% of the time, an illustrator is collaborating with two other people at the least...an editor and the writer of the work that is being illustrated. Of course there are Illustrator/Writers out there. But it is rare breed indeed. Mostly in children's books...Seuss and Sendak come to mind

That is my two cents.

[Storn]

Jon, I've often heard comic book illustrators as a term. As well as comic book artists.

But comic book = commerical endevor.... so comic book artist works just fine. Either one works for me.

When you say comic book artist, no one gets the picture of a Jackson Pollack working on massive canvases on the floor. It invocates a very commerical tableau; artist behind drafting table.

[Jerry D. Grayson]

Originally posted by Jack




Also, and this isn't a slam...but what is the difference between an artist and an illustrator..is it anything like the difference between an author and a writer?

I consider an artist someone who is really creative and creates work for the sake of doing something pretty (or ugly). An illustrator I feel has less inate talent but does stuff by rote until he can get it right. Also an artist make great work thats worth something on its own merit, an illustrator just cranks out stuff for his task master and only has worth to his employer.

I dont consider myself as talented as some of the artist I see here but I know if gevin enough time I could produce artwork thats just as good but not as creative.

[Storn]

Originally posted by Jerry D. Grayson


I consider an artist someone who is really creative and creates work for the sake of doing something pretty (or ugly). An illustrator I feel has less inate talent but does stuff by rote until he can get it right. Also an artist make great work thats worth something on its own merit, an illustrator just cranks out stuff for his task master and only has worth to his employer.

I dont consider myself as talented as some of the artist I see here but I know if gevin enough time I could produce artwork thats just as good but not as creative.

Wow. You just pushed my button. I think you are completely and totally wrong.

Michelangelo, Kustav Glimt, Howard Pyle, Rockwell, NC Wyeth, Lynndecker, Maxfield Parrish, Toulouise Latrec, Delacroix, David.... good god, none of these guys were ARTISTS? They were all illustrators! Among many, many others that don't come immediately to mind.

For christ sake, the sistine chapel is just one giant comic book about the bible. The friggin Pope was a client! Sure, the scope is a bit different, big ceiling and all and there are no panels... but it STILL a bunch of images to deal out a story!

I'll grant you that illustration doesn't often reach the lofty goal of art. But I would also contend that it takes talent to work within limitations of the story set before you, the deadline imposed, the nature of the work.

I don't work by rote. I practice my craft. Just as a Fine Artist must. I'll put my creativity up against any other. TEchnique is another story, i"m learning there... but creativity? I get more and more creative as I get better...its a muscle that can be trained, just like any other. I don't feel less creative than a Fine Artist.

I chose to be a commerical artist, not out of love of money, but because my sensibilities drive me in that direction. I LIKE telling stories, I LIKE working with writers and editors. I'm perfectly capable of doing portraits, still lifes, landscapes...the domain of Fine Art. I even know how to sell it and live off it. But I don't. Not because I don't have the talent, because it is NOT me. My mother is a Fine Artist. She sells paintings and makes art that has its own intrinsic worth. I respect that...and she respect my work as well.

Sorry for the venom, but that statement really ticked me off.

[Jon H]

I respect your hardheadedness at still posting your definition after reading the previous two.

I was just writing this when Storn posted his reply...

Flame on. I agree with Storn.

For his next trick perhaps Jerry would like to go into a Hell's Angel's bar and explain why motorbikes are for pansies.

I trained as a fine artist, but I make my living as an illustrator. How confusing.

Everyone is entitled to define their own terms, but you have to accept that those terms may cause gross offence. A little thought may save you a whole lot of trouble.

[Jack]

Heh. So it is like author and writer.

An author (self-proclaimed anyway) is someone who tells me that he's more talented and doesn't care if he gets published as popular works are often inferior. A writer tries like hell to get paid to write since he loves it, likes to entertain, and wants to quite his day job.

To quote Billy Crystal in Throw Momma from the Train: A writer writes...always.

To quote myself: An author writes when he's not criticizing, feeling underappreciated, or launching into a long diatribe why a particular style of literature is inferior, stupid, or low-class.

Specifically I remember dating a girl who was constantly down on games, gaming, and my writing for them. She also wrote, though only deeply personal works that had "art". She felt the same way about comics too, If I remember but I wasn't writing for them...

And in the end?

I got published and paid (albeit not much). She got published in the writing journal edited by her creative writing teacher. She was an author I guess....I was a writer with a paycheck.

[Jon H]

No. You guys are muddying a quality judgement into the terms "illustrator" and "artist". These are not relative terms.

"Illustrator" simply describes an artistic profession, like graphic designer, or draughtsman.

It is NOT a qualitative term.

I think what you are looking for is the word "hack" (which happily crosses over into a lot of fields, writing included)

Therefore, Jerry can happily, self-depreciatingly, call himself a "hack", without offending all the illustrators in the world.

I'm also intersted in the idea that given sufficient time Jerry could produce work of the same quality as others who post here. This is a statement of pure nonsense. People posting work have created the "sufficient time" to hone their skills, where Jerry has not ( I assume). This often involves a great deal of personal sacrifice.

QV: Christopher Shy's endword in his monograph "Ronin". He expresses how he has burned every relationship in his life for the sake of his work, work which he is rarely happy with. And I'm sure Rick, Eric, Csaar, Storn, Matt, and all the other illustrators I've forgotten to mention, could tell at least a similar story.

Its therefore somewhat imprudent/impudent to claim that you could do the same, simply given enough time. We all have a similar amount of time, tragedy not withstanding, and its up to us to make decisions about how we spend it. Some of us have dedicated big parts of our lives to our work, in the hope of reaching a certain level of proficiency. And it rarely comes without cost - thus it's a serious business.

I'm quite sure that nothing has been said with the express intention of causing offense, but I strongly felt a need to put this point across. Thanks for reading this far.