[Necro] Can anyone give me an example of this "Piers Anthony = pedophile" thing?

[David J Prokopetz]

I've long known that Piers Anthony has an astounding array of bizarre hangups and sexual fetishes work their way into his stories, but recently it's been asserted to me by a number of people that he's actually advocated pedophilia, as well. That's a new one to me - I've perused several stories where he pervs over fourteen-year-old girls, but that doesn't quite qualify as pedophilia in my books. Heck, it's even legal where I come from, tho' still rather creepy.

Can anyone point out for me the source(s) of this perception that he's an out-and-out pedophile?

(Disclaimer: I don't wish to have a debate over whether he's actually a pedophile or not; I'm just looking for published sources that could be construed as supporting that claim.)

[Gargoyle1981]

He's not.

People are just uncomfortable with the fact that he's sexualizing fourteen year olds.

He's no worse than anime.

People just love to make fun of stuff like the fact that people have sex with unicorns in his stories.

[Rob Lowry]

People just love to make fun of stuff like the fact that people have sex with unicorns in his stories.

Hey, the unicorn consented, and I made breakfast for it the next... wait, you were talking about a book? Nevermind..

[David Goodner]

He's not.

People are just uncomfortable with the fact that he's sexualizing fourteen year olds.

And 10 year-olds. And 8 year-olds...

And there's a fairly heavy level of cross-species sex in the Xanth books - except that nobody really has sex in Xanth except the Centuars.

David G.

[David J Prokopetz]

And 10 year-olds. And 8 year-olds...Now, y'see, that I'd buy as an actual example of pedophilia-related content. Can you cite a particular story?

[David Goodner]

I'm trying to remember titles. I haven't read a Xanth novel in quite a while.

There's one where a young Prince (young as in "child") is courted by three women. The oldest of them is 18 (I think), which is like twice his age. She's a naga, IIRC.

The last one I skimmed at work had a female winged centuar in her late teens/early 20's who voulentaraly got de-aged down to child age so she could be the eventual mate of another winged centuar (the species being rather rare in Xanth).

And there was another bit somewhere with a winged centuar who decided to mate with a hipogryph (not even a talking hipogryph, just a normal animal who happend to have compatible plumbing) because she couldn't find another guy she liked.

It's the later books, after the first 10 or so, where the protagonists start getting younger, and just about every book has a euphamistic Xanth-ian sexual relationship as a major subplot.

EDIT: however, to be fair, there's no actual depiction of sex with minors or otherwise. In fact, in Xanth, "Summoning the Stork" doesn't actually involve sexual intercourse. (Or even complete nudity, iirc)

David G.

[JELEINEN]

There's a book called Firefly that's particularly bad.

[Mmmm... Eyes]

At least in the Xanth books, the actual act of sex is covered up by "the elipses" which is literally three asterisks that float by, identifying a time change. Then it's over.

I've read all the Xanth books, and I've never seen pedophilia anywhere in there.

[Armitage]

Now, y'see, that I'd buy as an actual example of pedophilia-related content. Can you cite a particular story?

The main character in Bio of a Space Tyrant had a mistress who was, I believe, 12. I think it was in the 5th book.

[Moonstone Spider]

To be fair, Bio of a Space Tyrant was meant to be as horrible as possible (At least I hope so).

I mean, the guy was eating his own father's dead body to stay alive in the first hundred pages of the first story, right after his sister wound up a rape-slave-for-life of a band of pirates for no reason at all.

I was under the impression that in Xanth there was an "Adult Conspiracy" that keeps anybody from ever learning anything about sex beyond kisisng before they are 18.

[JELEINEN]

There's a book called Firefly that's particularly bad.

For further info, read the first review: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0688097057/qid=1128391115/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-3733786-4844738?v=glance&s=books

[Tokezo Hime]

I definitely remember some sketch in the Incarnations of Immortality, but I'm drawing blanks on specific titles.

[Topher]

Firefly has graphic sex scenes between an adult male and a "consenting" five year old girl. The book strongly implies that the girl - now a grown woman - has severe psychiatric problems (including multiple personalities) not because she was abused, but because the authorities separated her from her "lover."

I couldn't finish reading it.

Topher

[Amnistar]

Never read Firefly. As far as the Xanth books go, as near as i can remember (and it's been awhile) while there are romantic subplots of underaged couples, there isn't any sexual relationship. In the instance of the Prince and the 3 courters, in the end, the prince chooses a bride, and then has to wait till they are of age to sleep together. The instance of the unicorn i believe is similiar. However, from the reviews of firefly....I don't think that can be defended.

[Dave Blewer]

I stopped reading Xanth books decades ago.

I remember that A Spell for Chameleon was pretty good stuff, but the quality quickly declined.

I read a few of the Incarnations of Immortality as well. Pretty good.

Don't remember anything squick worthy, but there is a possibility that I have blocked it out.

I am re-reading A Game of Thrones for the umpteenth time and their are several scenes with Sansa and Daenerys that could --and no doubt have --offend some readers.

I look at AGOT as an *almost* historical fantasy and I think that viewed in that way the scenes of which I speak are OK, but I can see that if you are expecting a normal fantasy read then they might shock.

[Bailywolf]

Firefly has graphic sex scenes between an adult male and a "consenting" five year old girl. The book strongly implies that the girl - now a grown woman - has severe psychiatric problems (including multiple personalities) not because she was abused, but because the authorities separated her from her "lover."

I couldn't finish reading it.

Topher

Yup. That book was fucked up in all kinds of ways- and I can really see how it could- when combined with the hints and suggestions in his other books- really stand out as the ringer. It sort of reeked of NAMBLA-type pedo justification.

I think I read this book after coming down off a Xanth jag, and it totally killed my enjoyment of the dude's work, to the point of working retrotemporaly, and echoing back in time and destroying all the middle school fun I had reading his stuff when I was stupider and less discriminating.

In the same year, I read The Wasp Factory and it icked me out less.

-B

[The Red Baron]

I am re-reading A Game of Thrones for the umpteenth time and their are several scenes with Sansa and Daenerys that could --and no doubt have --offend some readers.

I look at AGOT as an *almost* historical fantasy and I think that viewed in that way the scenes of which I speak are OK, but I can see that if you are expecting a normal fantasy read then they might shock.

Dany's 18 by the final book, Sansa is 15, I think. Both ages are okay in my book.

Frankly, if people are going to be that puritanical, they'll be creeped out by the Jaime/Cersei twincest long before they get to girls having sex at an appropriate age for that time period.

[Ab3]

I had heard that Peirs Anthony wants to write other stuff but a lot of times all he can sell is Xanth books. I wonder sometimes if FIREFLY Wasn't his way of trying to destroy his fanbase.

That being said I consider FIREFLY mistep but I think Piers has written too many good books to get dinged to badly for a few really bad ones.

[Olof Jönsson]

ISTR someone mentioning that Anthony wrote a very creepy afterword in one of his novels, that apparently made him seem, if not pedophiliac, very, *very* supportive of the practice.

[Fortinbras]

I definitely remember some sketch in the Incarnations of Immortality, but I'm drawing blanks on specific titles.

In "And Eternity," the judge who eventually takes the place of God (or specifically, Jesus) as the Incarnation of Good had taken the main character, a 15 or 16 year old, as a lover.

There was also a scene in "On a Pale Horse," where Death discovers that he needs to take the soul of a 12 year old child who was seduced by his babysitter, somehow, in the moral system of that universe (which is pretty much unfair as a plot point for that book specifically), the child had committed the sin of fornication, which put his soul in balance and required that Death take it and judge it. He pretty much said fuck that, and had Time reverse the flow of time so that he could get everyone who would have died out of the fire. The scene's point on the seduction, however, was woefully unclear. There was a mention on how this sort of thing is more likely to be ignored if it happens to a boy then a girl, and IIRC, Death told the woman to stop sinning, but it didn't seem as if anyone felt anything to bad had really happened. It was weird.

[InsaneInvestigator]

I had heard that Peirs Anthony wants to write other stuff but a lot of times all he can sell is Xanth books. I wonder sometimes if FIREFLY Wasn't his way of trying to destroy his fanbase.

That being said I consider FIREFLY mistep but I think Piers has written too many good books to get dinged to badly for a few really bad ones.

Uhhh. Dude, I understand that you like his books and I liked some of them too, and to be fair I've never read Firefly...

But, even if he was trying to 'destroy his fanbase,' and I don't think he was, then he chose the most reprehensible and morally repugnant way to do so that I can think of. If half of the information in those Amazon Firefly reviews is true, then Piers Anthony really crossed the line.

It became clear to me as a teenager, reading the Xanth novels, that Piers Anthony was getting off on his own books. He uses fantasy as a tool to make it all seem harmless and really ambiguous, which I think is a true crime. He abuses the genre to get his jollies. And to get his jollies published. Unforgivable.

[Dave Blewer]

Dany's 18 by the final book, Sansa is 15, I think. Both ages are okay in my book.

Frankly, if people are going to be that puritanical, they'll be creeped out by the Jaime/Cersei twincest long before they get to girls having sex at an appropriate age for that time period.

Totally agree with you, but I have to point out that Dany gets married at 13 and discovers that she is pregnant on her 14th birthday

Sansa suffers physical abuse (at least) at the age of 11.

[The Red Baron]

Totally agree with you, but I have to point out that Dany gets married at 13 and discovers that she is pregnant on her 14th birthday

Sansa suffers physical abuse (at least) at the age of 11.

By modern standards, and developmentally speaking (highborn girls grow up faster) they're really around 20 and 15.

Yeah, it's young. But Martin's just going with what was actually the custom at the time, and he in no way condones Sansa's abuse. Daenarys' relationship, on the other hand, isn't pedophilia in any sense of the word, other than Dany being very young. Unlike dear Piers up there, Martin actually succeeds in making her marriage a happy, meaningful one.

[Coyraven]

Unlike dear Piers up there, Martin actually succeeds in making her marriage a happy, meaningful one.

Wow.. and I thought when people sympathize with Jaime creepy...

CR

[Dave Blewer]

Wow.. and I thought when people sympathize with Jaime creepy...

CR


Yeah...

Drogo basically rapes Dany every night for months. He's a cold unfeeling bastard. I wouldn't call their marriage exactly happy

[The Red Baron]

Wow.. and I thought when people sympathize with Jaime creepy...

CR

Pardon? Drogo might be a barbarian example of a barbaric culture, but he loves Daenarys, and she him. She's young, he's old, but the age difference is clearly not an issue between them or anyone else.

Jaime loves his family, and I do sympathize with Jaime a bit. You wouldn't think an incestous, kingslaying, arrogant bastard could be sympathetic, but Jaime is, and he's an absolutely beautiful foil, especially when compared to Eddard. The scene where Jaime talks about Stark judging him without knowing the facts is a dead-on characterization, and it's my second favorite moment in the book.

"By what right does the wolf judge the lion? BY WHAT RIGHT?"

[The Red Baron]

Yeah...

Drogo basically rapes Dany every night for months. He's a cold unfeeling bastard. I wouldn't call their marriage exactly happy

Whoa, now. We're coming to an impasse.

I don't think that's the case, at all. Did he force himself upon Dany on their wedding night? No, he took it slow, and asked her if she wanted him. The sex, every night, was demanded by his culture and Dany couldn't resist (doesn't make it right, but it explains that he felt he had no choice).

He agrees to cross the poison water, which all Dothraki fear, for her. He swears by her and his son that he will win the Iron Throne. He lets Viserys get away with plenty (though not without putting him in his place), until he gets crowned. Drogo slays a white lion, and calls Dany "moon-of-my-life."

Unfeeling bastard? I think you need to read the book again. He's a hard man, but not unfeeling, and clearly, he's a trueborn son.

[Coyraven]

You wouldn't think an incestous, kingslaying, arrogant bastard could be sympathetic

When one pushes a child out of a window? Nope- not sympathetic.

The same way I don't think a thirteen year old can have a healthy happy marriage to a barbarian.

I guess I am old fashioned that way.

CR

[Dave Blewer]

Whoa, now. We're coming to an impasse.

I don't think that's the case, at all. Did he force himself upon Dany on their wedding night? No, he took it slow, and asked her if she wanted him. The sex, every night, was demanded by his culture and Dany couldn't resist (doesn't make it right, but it explains that he felt he had no choice).

He agrees to cross the poison water, which all Dothraki fear, for her. He swears by her and his son that he will win the Iron Throne. He lets Viserys get away with plenty (though not without putting him in his place), until he gets crowned. Drogo slays a white lion, and calls Dany "moon-of-my-life."

Unfeeling bastard? I think you need to read the book again. He's a hard man, but not unfeeling, and clearly, he's a trueborn son.

I am reading the book right now :-)

Drogo acts like he owns her for much of the book. She accepts this because of very low self esteem and the life-long abuse of her brother.

His decision to cross the poison water was a pride thing more than anything else and it isn't like he acted on it immediately.

I think that he felt affection and for her, and was proud of her, but no, not love.

She didn't love him either, he was her shield from her brother and while his lived from a horrible fate.

I think it says a lot for the book that we can both come away with different views of the characters.

[The Red Baron]

When one pushes a child out of a window? Nope- not sympathetic.

You're looking at him as a person, not as a character. Still, even as a person, his explanation for pushing Bran is explained, and it's understandable. What he did is repugnant, but this doesn't make him less sympathetic, less able to relate to us. Martin's biggest triumph over me, so far, was making Jaime sympathetic. I can relate, on some level, to a man who will push a boy out of a window. On some level, he strikes a chord with me.

Now, do I feel sorry for Jaime? Perhaps, a little bit. But he's sympathetic in that I understand his motivations, even if I don't condone his actions.

The same way I don't think a thirteen year old can have a healthy happy marriage to a barbarian.

I guess I am old fashioned that way.

CR

As young marriages was the norm way back when, you're technically new-fashioned.

Dany's clearly happy. She doesn't seem to be functioning under any sort of brainwashing or naivete. And the marriage enables her to grow into a strong, vibrant woman - a queen, a khaleesi. Clearly, it was both happy and healthy. Your argument that "she's just so young" is indeed shocking, but it holds no weight.

She isn't a woman when she marries him, but she is when she burns him.

[The Red Baron]

I am reading the book right now :-)

Drogo acts like he owns her for much of the book. She accepts this because of very low self esteem and the life-long abuse of her brother.

In public? Yes. In private, especially the first time they have sex, it's a bit different. He lets his hair down, and it's implied that he would not take her if she didn't want it.

I think that he felt affection and for her, and was proud of her, but no, not love.

I think he did love her, in the best fashion that his culture allowed. An overabundance of pride and affection seems damn close to love, in my book.

She didn't love him either, he was her shield from her brother and while his lived from a horrible fate.

At first, yeah. But I think their relationship grew into something more, as Dany herself grew as a woman.

I think it says a lot for the book that we can both come away with different views of the characters.

Agreed.

[The Incredible Hatboy]

It isn't so much the pedephilia that turned me off from Anthony, since (at least in the Xanth I read) it was usually less-than-explicit, plus I was about 14 at the time, so the "whoa now" factor was less extreme. But when I read Bio of a Space Tyrant, and realized that I was being told that it was a kind, loving act to rape a woman's psychopath-assassin alternate personality, when the woman who loves you won't remember a damn moment of it... yeah. I also got to do the retroactive "You didn't actually enjoy any of that stuff, all those years ago" thing. Those five books, aside from being outrageously stupid in many other ways, raised moral reprehensibility to a whole new level I'd never before experienced.

[drnuncheon]

I am re-reading A Game of Thrones for the umpteenth time and their are several scenes with Sansa and Daenerys that could --and no doubt have --offend some readers.

I look at AGOT as an *almost* historical fantasy and I think that viewed in that way the scenes of which I speak are OK, but I can see that if you are expecting a normal fantasy read then they might shock.

The big difference would be that Martin seems to be presenting it as "this is what happened". He doesn't seem to be advocating it, which is what creeps people out about the Anthony book.

J

[Dave Blewer]

The big difference would be that Martin seems to be presenting it as "this is what happened". He doesn't seem to be advocating it, which is what creeps people out about the Anthony book.

J

Agreed.

Please don't think that I put Martin and Anthony in the same boat, I am reading AGoT right now so it is fresh in my memory that's all.

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm surprised that similar claims haven't been made against Fred Saberhagen, as he as at least one book ("Mask of the Sun", IIRC) wherein the lead character marries a 14 year-old.

Then again, maybe such claims have been made, and I'm just not aware of them.

[Rolzup]

I'm surprised that similar claims haven't been made against Fred Saberhagen, as he as at least one book ("Mask of the Sun", IIRC) wherein the lead character marries a 14 year-old.

Then again, maybe such claims have been made, and I'm just not aware of them.

Similar things have been said about Heinlein; the hero of Glory Road is soundly castigated for *not* sleeping with a 13 year old.

He does, once things are explained to him, to make things right with his host, though.

[AegonTheUnready]

I'm surprised that similar claims haven't been made against Fred Saberhagen, as he as at least one book ("Mask of the Sun", IIRC) wherein the lead character marries a 14 year-old.

Then again, maybe such claims have been made, and I'm just not aware of them.
Not nearly as many people have read "Mask of the Sun'. I think you need a critical mass to say "Yeah, I got that vibe too."

[Ab3]

Uhhh. Dude, I understand that you like his books and I liked some of them too, and to be fair I've never read Firefly...

But, even if he was trying to 'destroy his fanbase,' and I don't think he was, then he chose the most reprehensible and morally repugnant way to do so that I can think of. If half of the information in those Amazon Firefly reviews is true, then Piers Anthony really crossed the line.

It became clear to me as a teenager, reading the Xanth novels, that Piers Anthony was getting off on his own books. He uses fantasy as a tool to make it all seem harmless and really ambiguous, which I think is a true crime. He abuses the genre to get his jollies. And to get his jollies published. Unforgivable.


I dunno, I guess my thing is that he may not be 'getting his jollies' but just writing stories.

Personal example... someone ready my Magwier and Loreli stories and then my Shadows of Polaris stories and asked me if I had a thing for teenage girls.

And it wasn't that at all, its just that I have spent my life watching odd age pairings go on around me. My sister and female cousin both ran away from home to live with older men- one at 14, one at 18. On the other hand my stepmother is more than a decade younger then me- she was around 19/20 when she hooked up with my Dad who was in his fifties. My stepfather was 16 years younger than my Mom... etc...(Oddly enough me and the missus are just a little over a year apart in age)

So I have always seen these relationships and they do facinate me, so I've written about them but does that make me Aqualung? I doubt it...

I guess what I'm saying that maybe Anthony isn't the creep some worry he is...

[CosmicCowboy]

Not nearly as many people have read "Mask of the Sun'. I think you need a critical mass to say "Yeah, I got that vibe too."

And that many have read "Firefly"? Or is that just consider the clincher, and the general vibe comes from the Xanth novels? Cause I never really got that vibe from the Xanth series. Weird fetishes yes, pedophile no.

[DMH]

Wild tangent here, but I have a question about Anthony. I have an old copy of Omnivore and it has the author's name in the copyright as Piers A. D. Jacob.

So he's using his second given name as his surname?

[Dan Davenport]

And there was another bit somewhere with a winged centuar who decided to mate with a hipogryph (not even a talking hipogryph, just a normal animal who happend to have compatible plumbing) because she couldn't find another guy she liked.

If this is the event I remember from the series before I abandoned it, the female involved was a "normal" centaur, and the main character wonders whether she wants a winged foal. (Which I believe is where the first winged centaur comes from, although I didn't read that book.)

Also, the hippogryph involved was intelligent. It just couldn't speak.

[JamesCat]

Shockingly, Piers Anthony appears to be rather older than any of us thought, as witness this 18th century text -

THE BENEFIT OF FARTING EXPLAIN'D
or, the
FUNDAMENT-ALL CAUSE of the Distempers incident to the Fair Sex

Inquire'd into
Proving a Posteriori most of the Dis-ordures in-tail'd on, them are owing to Flatulencies not seasonably vented

Wrote in Spanish, by Don Fati-inhando Puff-indorst Professor of Bumbast in the University of Craccow
AND
translated into English at the Request and for the Use of the Lady Damp-Fart, of Her-Fart-Shire

THE THIRTEENTH EDITION, with Additions, revis'd by a College of Phyzz-icians, and approved by several Ladies of Quality

Printed for A. Moore, near St. Paul's, and Sold by the Booksellers, 1727

[Chiaroscuro]

Guys-

I like aGoT as much as you, but it seems wildly off-topic, and also a bit spoilery (I know I'd be pissed if I had just started it) in a Piers Anthony thread.

-C.

[Geza Echs]

In the same year, I read The Wasp Factory and it icked me out less.



:eek: There are no sufficient words in English to express the horror this statement causes within me.

[Des]

And that many have read "Firefly"? Or is that just consider the clincher, and the general vibe comes from the Xanth novels? Cause I never really got that vibe from the Xanth series. Weird fetishes yes, pedophile no.

I think the clincher idea is spot on. Its been many many years since I read any saberhagen, but I don't recall most of his books having any real sexual innuendo in them (granted, I was mainly into the berzerker series, but I did read other of his works). With Anthony, some form of odd sexuality seems a recurring theme that leads to a lot of speculation. If he had written firefly out of the blue without many or any sexual references in his other books, there might be less debate. Given firefly's weird advocacy, I suspect there'd still be debate, but it'd less noticeable.

[Eliott]

I seem to remember him having a little sidecolumn or introduction that basically advocated shit like this.

I read it in the huge piers anthony thread we had a little while ago, but which I can no longer find.

[javelin98]

Piers Anthony is a weird bird. I'm not sure if he is a pedophile, but he's certainly a dirty old man.

My personal favorite review of his works is this one, courtesy of the Books-a-Minute reviews site (http://rinkworks.com/bookaminute/b/anthony.xanth.shtml):


The Xanth Series
By Piers Anthony
Ultra-Condensed by Samuel Stoddard and David J. Parker


Teenaged Main Character
Friends, let's go on a quest and have a pun time.

Gratuitous Love Interest
Ok.

Sidekick With A Body Composed of Parts From Twenty-Nine Distinct Species
Ok.

Boring Old Adult
Good luck! Don't forget your honor!


(Teenaged Main Character and friends go OUT and have a QUEST. Then they COME BACK.)


Teenaged Main Character
I've had enough adventure. Gratuitous Love Interest, let's get married and have kids so they can have adventures of their own.


Piers Anthony
I rule! I rule! Thanks to Julie Spofford of Burbank, Illinois, for the "quest" idea; Frederick Treepson of Malahoopee, North Carolina, for the "friends" idea; Susie Kellerman of Gunky, Louisiana, for the "good luck" line; and Norwood G. Dimble of New Spertle, Nevada, for the fun/pun pun.


THE END

[Caduceus]

Still, nothing in this thread has shown that Anthony advocates pedophelia. This is fiction we are talking about here! I think the original question remains unanswered.

[The Red Baron]

Still, nothing in this thread has shown that Anthony advocates pedophelia. This is fiction we are talking about here! I think the original question remains unanswered.

What about the essay he wrote advocating pedophilia?

[Caduceus]

Anyone got a link or quote for that? I did find this: http://www.hipiers.com/02aug.html

It contains this creepy passage:

Another asked whether, considering that I have things like underage sex in On A Pale Horse and Bio of a Space Tyrant, I am attracted to underage women. I regard that, however politely phrased, as an implication I am a pedophile. First, I asked the questioner to identify the page number of Pale Horse where any such thing exists, as I don't believe it does. Elsewhere in the interview I had a comment about folk who condemn me for things that aren't in my novels. Then I went into an extended discussion of the nature of human sexual interest, which is essentially that if she's 36-24-36 and fair of feature, men are attracted, and so am I, regardless whether she's 15 or 50, and I don't think those extremes make me either a pedophile or a necrophile. Well, I got no page numbers, and was accused of doing a song and dance, avoiding the issue, and of attacking the questioners. That's what annoys me. I get the impression that some folk want to make me out a pedophile and think I'm being evasive when I try to clarify the issue. I find all shapely women appealing, which is hardly the same. It's like asking "Do you still beat your wife?" and demanding a yes/no answer; some purport not to understand why such questions are offensive."

[travisjhall]

Wild tangent here, but I have a question about Anthony. I have an old copy of Omnivore and it has the author's name in the copyright as Piers A. D. Jacob.

So he's using his second given name as his surname?
I've read a lot of Piers Anthony's books. I think I counted over fifty that I had read, at one stage. (I think I read 13 Xanths, 7 Incarnations, 7 Adept, 3 Man+Manta, 5 Bio, 4 Mode, 3 Battle Circle, 3 Tarot, 5 Cluster, and a number of miscellaneous others.) I used to be a big fan, but I find his books a bit light for me now. In my readings, I learned a lot about him. There are little clues scattered throughout his books, and especially his author's notes (which are frequently much better reads than his novels). I knew the name of his wife and daughters, what pets he kept, the location of his home to within a few miles, the circumstances of his immigration to the USA, and his real name. I can tell you that Jacob is his real surname, and you have correctly guessed his second given name. He publishes as Piers Anthony in an attempt to keep his private life private, but as you note an observant reader can bypass that little piece of security. His third middle name can be divined from his writings as well, if you know where to look.

And no, I'm not obsessed with him. I just paid attention.

As for Piers Anthony being a pedophile, I don't believe that he is.

For a start, "pedophile" is the wrong term for attraction to an adolescent girl. Pedophilia is attraction to a pre-pubescent child. The more accurate term for attraction to a post-pubescent adolescent girl is hebephilia, IIRC. So, only his writings concerning sexual activity involving very young children would be technically relevant when considering pedophilia, and I read no such writings. The only one that I've heard of which might be relevant would be Firefly, and I haven't read that.

As for hebephilia and other sexual perversion, in his writings... Certainly sex does occur in his novels. The Bio of a Space Tyrant series does seem to take the stance that if a girl has the "equipment", she should be allowed to decide herself what to do with it. However, the message I got from reading that novel is that it would be better to educate 13-year-olds in this area, and carefully support them so that they can make the right choices for themselves. I agree with that sentiment, because I believe that too many young, post-pubescent girls are making choices which are not right for them because they are not fully educated and not properly supported by their parents and our society.

In Bio of a Space Tyrant, the main character does enter into a relationship with a young, post-pubescent girl. However, IIRC (and remembering that it was many years ago that I read this), he refuses to engage in actual physical sexual contact with her until she is old enough (by a certain standard, at least). The character is very obviously attracted to the girl, but that is a fact of life. I, too, am attracted in a certain way to 15-year-old girls. Realistically, the overwhelming majority of men are. Piers Anthony probably is too. But that does not mean that most men are continually trying to bed young girls. I, like many men, am *more* attracted to women with whom I can connect in other ways as well, and that means I am generally interested in women closer to my own age. That's what Piers Anthony has talked about in at least one interview, and he's right.

In one of the Adept novels, a woman is raped. Piers Anthony was upbraided by, errm, a former fan shall we say, because he depicted rape in a novel. Piers Anthony responded, in an author's note, that the rape was depicted as something absolutely horrible that happened to the poor, unsuspecting victim, and again he is right. Just because a writer writes about something, doesn't mean he supports that something. Rape is wrong, and we should be vocal about condemning it. In that novel, Piers Anthony took a stance which I think we all should.

In the Xanth novels, as has been pointed out, there is no sex. There are romantic subplots involving children. Really, that's a pretty accurate parallel to the real world. A lot of young boys and girls experiment with relationships before puberty. In most cases, there is no sex involved. Such relationships are often charmingly innocent, just as in Xanth. If we choose to read this as a metaphor for something different, is that the author's problem, or ours?

And sometimes, young children do experiment a little sexually - "doctors and nurses" - and Piers Anthony depicted this in his Tarot novels. Again, though, I didn't feel that he was encouraging this (indeed, the main character remembers the incident with embarrassment and even shame, which, as I recall, was the point its mention in the novel). He merely stated that it happens.

The scene in On a Pale Horse involving the stained soul of a child who had been sexual abused was mentioned. To me, the point of that scene was that ascribing sin to the victim was wrong, and that the main character strongly disapproved of such a system.

There are more examples. The Mode series examines in some detail the sexuality of a 14-year-old suicidal girl. The Bio of a Space Tyrant has other atrocities. The Adept series mentions sex with a shapechanging unicorn (who would have been underage *if she was human*), IIRC. But I've never gotten the impression that this was because Piers Anthony was trying to titillate, even himself. There might be something in those of his novels I haven't read, but in what I have read, I have generally found it refreshing to find a writer who is willing to address such issues, rather than trying to hide them.

[pawsplay]

I'd say Piers Anthony is someone who is not going to let Puritanism get in the way of telling a story he feels will shed some light on what it means to be human.

[The Unconquered Shawn]

The absolute best part of the Amazon review page for Firefly is the 2nd review, not the first

This is the work of a man who has clearly given up on life. Of course since the old routine wasnt working for him and he needed that summer house in Colorado, trust me he really did NEED it. He did what any self respecting egotist would do he published filth.
What will he do for act two? Promote bestiality in a pristine woodland setting with faeries? One can only hope that a runaway 18 wheeler dashes any possibility of that ever happening.

Sorry man... that was act one.

[The Red Baron]

I'd say Piers Anthony is someone who is not going to let Puritanism get in the way of telling a story he feels will shed some light on what it means to be human.

If a father raping a daughter and the daughter liking it is human, well, I'd rather be a Galgamek.

[Cessna]

I'd say Piers Anthony is someone who is not going to let Puritanism get in the way of telling a story he feels will shed some light on what it means to be human.


Yeah, because a book entitled "The Color of Her Panties" is sure to be insightful literature; move over, Marcel Proust.

[RedFox]

Yeah, because a book entitled "The Color of Her Panties" is sure to be insightful literature; move over, Marcel Proust.

Have a Zing! point, sir.

[David J Prokopetz]

For a start, "pedophile" is the wrong term for attraction to an adolescent girl.Well, as I outlined in the topic post, I don't consider examples of older characters boinking fourteen-year-olds to be "pedophilia". Beyond a certain point it's a little creepy, sure, but I wouldn't characterise the act as intrinsically immoral (even if, in practice, it usually is), and heck, where I come from it's even legal.

[Naxuul]

While I can't say whether Peirs Anthony is a pedophile or not, since I can neither read minds or plumb the twisted webs of fate, but I can certainly understand why people would think he is.

If I wrote novel after novel where say.. hot sweaty mansex came up, no matter how incidental to the plot or needless.. well people would prolly be right in expecting me to be a desirer of mansex. Or a slashficcer.;)

-Naxuul

[pawsplay]

If a father raping a daughter and the daughter liking it is human, well, I'd rather be a Galgamek.


Again, there is a huge difference between artistic depiction and advocacy.

I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings features a nine year old girl getting sexually molested by her step-father and liking it. If you want to call Maya Angelou a filth writer, be my guest.

[Evan Waters]

I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings features a nine year old girl getting sexually molested by her step-father and liking it.

"Liking it"? I seem to recall her describing it as being the most painful trauma a nine-year-old body can undergo.

[pawsplay]

"Liking it"? I seem to recall her describing it as being the most painful trauma a nine-year-old body can undergo.

You're thinking of the kitchen rape scene. I am referring to this:


Finally he was quiet, and then came the nice part. He held me so softly that I wished he wouldn't ever let me go. I felt at home. From the way he was holding me I knew he'd never let me go or let anything bad happen to me. This was probably my real father and we have found each other at last...


Later:


I began to feel lonely for Mr. Freeman and the encasement of his arms.

...One evening, when I couldn't concentrate on anything, I went over to him and sat quickly on his lap.



For months he stopped speaking to me again. I was hurt and for a time lonelier than ever. But then I forgot about him, and even the memory of his holding me precious melted into the general darkness just beyond the great blinkers of childhood.

[Afterburner]

I seem to remember him having a little sidecolumn or introduction that basically advocated shit like this.

I read it in the huge piers anthony thread we had a little while ago, but which I can no longer find.

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=144950

[Pseudofelis_Sapiens_Ferox]

"There is a technical term for those who mistake the opinions and beliefs of characters in a novel for those of the author. The term is 'idiot.'"

-Larry Niven

[Allandaros]

Holy crap, you necroed a three-year-old thread for one line of commentary?

[Afterburner]

Holy crap, you necroed a three-year-old thread for one line of commentary?

Looks like he found the thread via google and registered simply to provided us with that reply, given that his sign-up date is Sept 2008, and today is the first day of Sept 2008. And he's only got the one reply as of this writing.

There's probably a technical term for someone who registers simply to provide a one-line rejoinder to a thread that's been completely dead for three years, but I can't think of what it is.

[flashedarling]

For further info, read the first review: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0688097057/qid=1128391115/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-3733786-4844738?v=glance&s=books

I don't know what is worse, what people are describing about the book. Or the fact that half of the reviews for the book gave it 5 stars.

[Old Scratch]

Holy crap, you necroed a three-year-old thread for one line of commentary?

No shit. And to defend creepy old Piers Anthony? Using a quote that simplifies and belies the act of being an author? I predict a short happy life here.

[JamesCat]

Huh, now I want to dig out that V.S. Naipaul quote about how fiction reveals the author more totally than any other form, but I lent my copy of the book to a friend, goddamnit.

[Lum's Better Half]

Huh, now I want to dig out that V.S. Naipaul quote about how fiction reveals the author more totally than any other form, but I lent my copy of the book to a friend, goddamnit.

Try this:

An autobiography can distort, facts can be realigned. But fiction never lies. It reveals the writer totally.

[Mmmm... Eyes]

I don't buy it. I don't think story content describes the author. Then everyone with a murder in their story wants to kill people.

Now, writing style can say a lot about an author and their personality, but not content.

Just my opinion.

[ru]

I don't buy it. I don't think story content describes the author. Then everyone with a murder in their story wants to kill people.

yeah, but murder authors don't tend to suggest that killing people isn't all that bad..

[David J Prokopetz]

I don't buy it. I don't think story content describes the author. Then everyone with a murder in their story wants to kill people.Hey, if you wrote a story with a murder in it, then wrote an afterword to that story in which you argue that the victim had it coming... :p

[JdRavnos]

Hey, if you wrote a story with a murder in it, then wrote an afterword to that story in which you argue that the victim had it coming... :p

Aren't you describing many revenge type of stories? Everything from Count of Monte Cristo to the Punisher?

[David J Prokopetz]

Aren't you describing many revenge type of stories? Everything from Count of Monte Cristo to the Punisher?I think you're being a little deliberately obtuse, here - there's a big difference, thematically speaking, between a revenge drama and a murder yarn.

[Evan Waters]

Hey, if you wrote a story with a murder in it, then wrote an afterword to that story in which you argue that the victim had it coming... :p

"He Had It Coming!"
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm2qXT5JcQA)

I'm not entirely sure on this subject, because I do think artistic exploration sometimes involves going into morally complicated situations, and a writer might well want to look at a situation where something generally horrible would be justified by other extreme circumstances. (Of course, this sometimes turns into the "you'd torture somebody if it would save millions of lives" kind of argument.)

In this case I actually had a look at the FIREFLY afterward, and I remember it being vague about what he wanted to argue. He's not so crazy that he's going to come out and say pedophilia is A-OK, it's more like the laws need to be re-examined, etc. Which did come off as evasive, but perhaps he himself is not sure of what point he wants to make with all this.

[Old Scratch]

I don't buy it. I don't think story content describes the author. Then everyone with a murder in their story wants to kill people.

Now, writing style can say a lot about an author and their personality, but not content.

Just my opinion.

This flies in the face of literary theory. I mean, the content doesn't say anything about the author? You're kidding right? Hubbard or Heinlein's or Mieville's ideas and politics don't inform their writing? Seriously? Where does the content come from? Authors write about things they find interesting or intriguing or meaningful. Their values and interests are expressed in what they write. Now, does that mean that the author shares the very same values of their characters? Surely not. But when Piers Anthony engages in the same themes over and over and over and over again, it's pretty apparent what is going on.

[Ratoslov]

Look, we have quite a body of work of Mr. Anthony's here, with the repeated motif of pedophiliac relations being portrayed as positive experiences for both parties with no dramatic irony or untrustworthy narrators involved. I think it's safe to say that Mr. Anthony is, at the very least, not un-opposed to pedophilia.

[Doctor,Wildstorm]

And that many have read "Firefly"? Or is that just consider the clincher, and the general vibe comes from the Xanth novels? Cause I never really got that vibe from the Xanth series. Weird fetishes yes, pedophile no.

Yeah , looking back i could see him as a major browser of f-chan(furry version of 4chan) but probably not a pedophile.
This reminds me, i should probably clear those off my shelf as i don't read them and need room for for my manga. Hmmm, probably shouldn't put up my card captor Sakura.
Does CLAMP seem a little suspicious to anyone?

[Broken]

I just realized that whichever series On a Pale Horse comes from would fit really well with Lilith Saintcrow's stuff, which makes me happy. I hate having isolated, random series on my shelf; I like things to be grouped.

And I think I remember liking the series, too, though I suspect a large chunk of that is nostalgia kicking in.

[David J Prokopetz]

Does CLAMP seem a little suspicious to anyone?Oh, I'm pretty sure CLAMP doesn't even pretend. :D

[Valmont]

ISTR someone mentioning that Anthony wrote a very creepy afterword in one of his novels, that apparently made him seem, if not pedophiliac, very, *very* supportive of the practice.IIRC, that was Firefly, and the afterword essentially said "Pedophilia is A-OK if it's man-on-girl!"

[Q99]

Does CLAMP seem a little suspicious to anyone?

Yes, yes it does (http://www.tsunamichannel.com/index.php?date=2003-05-05).

[Doctor,Wildstorm]

Yes, yes it does (http://www.tsunamichannel.com/index.php?date=2003-05-05).

Hey Yukito and Touya's relationship seemed pretty healthy for two closeted guys...
Except for the fact that yukito is a magical construct bellonging to his little sister.

Really that comic says something about the US and japan's pathologies than clamp's.

[Skadedyr]

where I come from it's even legal.

Canada's age of consent may be 14, but it has laws against exploitative sexual activity to protects minors.

Edit: Actually, seems like the age of consent was raised recently.

[Clayton Wick]

Edit: Actually, seems like the age of consent was raised recently.

If a person doesn't know this then it means one of two things:

1.) That person is not a pervert.

2.) That person is going to jail very soon.

[David J Prokopetz]

Edit: Actually, seems like the age of consent was raised recently.The post you're responding to was made three years ago.

[Skadedyr]

The post you're responding to was made three years ago.

My pedantry folds time like origami.

[Broken]

My pedantry folds time like origami.

Wait, you make time look like a crane and wear it around your neck?

I'm pretty sure Stephen Hawking's gonna kick your ass.

[Burgonet]

There's probably a technical term for someone who registers simply to provide a one-line rejoinder to a thread that's been completely dead for three years, but I can't think of what it is.

I'd go with the term Necrotroll; it's a verb to describe the act of someone registering solely for the purpose of bringing back the contentious dead.

I imagine it also functions as a noun.

[The Red Baron]

From years later, a bit harsher response than what I said earlier:

Really, Dave Blewer? Drogo and Daenarys in a pedophile relationship? Drogo didn't love Dany? Not even close, my friend.

[Dave Blewer]

Huh?

What the hell did I do? :confused: