[WOW] explain to me "end game" [Archive]

L. Ron Paul

10-05-2005, 07:57 AM

Raids and Battlegrounds I am afraid. And no more soloing.

Basically everything you didn't do for the first 59 levels.

which, I think, sucks.

Still, all of my high level guild members like it alot.

~Le

right- I'm looking for a little more "what" and a little less "I like/don't like"

I think I know what a battleground is. It's an instance area where alliance vs horde groups face off with different tasks that will bring them into conflict. There is also some sort of story to them- but it's not an ongoing story-line. Correct?

When I hear raid- I just assume that means attacking an unfriendly town/outpost etc. Am I wrong? Is it also an instance type thing?

Andwhen you say everything I didn't do for the first 59 levels...my biggest character is level 28. I, like Donald Rumsfeld, don't know anything about the things I don't know about. :)

Mapache

10-05-2005, 08:07 AM

But I don't undetstand all the terms. Raids? MC? LBRS? Stratholme?

Raids technically refers to any group of more than five people (up to forty). Raiding an instance refers to going with the maximum number of people allowed (10 for most, 15 for Upper Blackrock Spire (Lower can also take 15, but people only go with 10 when they bother going at all)), which prevents you from getting quests done, but lets you get to the juicy boss drops much faster. Then there's the instances that are only raided by groups of 20 (Zul'Gurub) and 40 (The Molten Core, Onyxia's Lair, & Blackwing's Lair). Raids also hit the outdoors bosses Azuregos in Azshara and Lord Kazzak in The Blasted Lands. (The next patch will bring four new outdoor bosses, and the patch after that will open the new raid instance of Ahn'Qiraj in Silithus.)

Stratholme, the Scholomance, and Blackrock Spire (which is internally divided into the Upper and Lower halves) are all instances geared towards players who are at or very near 60. (You can get by with healers down around 56 or maybe even 54 if you're good.) Stratholme is large enough that people normally only do the Live / Scarlet side, where the Scarlet Crusade has its headquarters, or the Undead / Baron side, where Baron Rivendare resides. From various bosses in these four instances is where you can collect your set of rare (blue) armor items (plus one or two items from Blackrock Depths, for a few classes).

Ikselam

10-05-2005, 08:18 AM

When I hear raid- I just assume that means attacking an unfriendly town/outpost etc. Am I wrong? Is it also an instance type thing?

A raid is like a group, but with many more players (often 20 or more). Raids can have a pvp goal, but commonly target a high-level instance which is designed to be too hard for just 5 players.

Battlegrounds are basically pvp instances. You can get awards by doing well and helping your team win.

MC is Molten Core, an enormous level 60 raid instance. I believe it's the hardest dungeon currently in the game.

Diomedes

10-05-2005, 08:22 AM

Note also, FWIW, that it is possible to enter any instance (eg Deadmines or Wailing Caverns) in a Raid group of (IIRC) 10, however you won't be able to collect any quest items or quest kills (that is if you have a quest to kill 10 of mob x you'll still be able to kill said mobs but they won't count for the purposes of completing the quest) etc. while you're in the group.

L. Ron Paul

10-05-2005, 08:26 AM

IceShadow

10-05-2005, 08:30 AM

Yes, and from what I gather (I'm just moving into this, as my Warrior just hit 50), it takes 10-20-40 people who know what they're doing together. Which is probably the real trick.

thele

10-05-2005, 08:31 AM

The end game consists of you going on Raids with large groups to get really powerful Epic items (purple).

you can only find these high level items on these raids.

Doing battlegrounds gives you ranks, that allows you to buy special items that other people cannot buy (you have to have X rank to buy Y equipment).

So, the end game basically consists of adventuring or fighting to get unique items.

Which people seem to like, except that these items aren't going to help you level since you are capped at 60.

Ironic, isn't it?

The expansion is being announced at the end of the month, and many of us are pretty certain the max level will be raised to 100 or so.

~Le

Mapache

10-05-2005, 09:14 AM

Which people seem to like, except that these items aren't going to help you level since you are capped at 60.

No, but they help you be better at acquiring increasingly more powerful items.

The expansion is being announced at the end of the month, and many of us are pretty certain the max level will be raised to 100 or so.

While others are certain the maximum level will never be raised, as the entire talent system is designed around only having as many points as a level 60 character has, and allowing higher level characters to interact with the current end-game content would reduce it to a total joke, only increasing complaints from bored players, and costing Blizzard subscriptions in the long run. It is quite likely that future character advancement of some form will exist, but not necessarily in the form of additional levels.

Mapache

10-05-2005, 09:16 AM

MC is Molten Core, an enormous level 60 raid instance. I believe it's the hardest dungeon currently in the game.

Blackwing's Lair opened a while back, and is insanely hard. We routinely pulverize everything in the Molten Core save Ragnaros, the god of fire, in a single day, and have yet to beat the first encounter in Blackwing's Lair.

Captain Howdy

10-05-2005, 09:19 AM

so I'm getting the impression these things are, in terms of what you do, qualitatively the same as what one does at lower levels. It's just that at level 60 you are dealing with stuff that requires 10-20-40 other players.

I think these end-game conversations are making more sense.

Also, it takes several hours to get through one.

Da wife loves 'em, but playing an instance for four hours straight would drive me nuts.

L. Ron Paul

10-05-2005, 09:43 AM

Also, it takes several hours to get through one.

Da wife loves 'em, but playing an instance for four hours straight would drive me nuts.

Does this mean you are playing WoW again?

And what server do you and Lex play on?

Captain Howdy

10-05-2005, 09:54 AM

Does this mean you are playing WoW again?\

She's playin' it, I barely got time to eat these days, so no WoW for me.

Yessod

10-05-2005, 10:57 AM

People addressed many of these already, but a few answers:

But I don't undetstand all the terms. Raids? MC? LBRS? Stratholme? are those like dungeons (like Wailing Caverns or Razorfen Downs?)

People already addressed what raids are. Most of the things you mentioned are dungeons. Here are a few abbreviations I've seen: MC, Molten Core. UBRS, Upper Blackrock Spiral. LBRS, Lower Blackrock Spiral. Strat, Stratholme. ST, Sunken Temple. ZG, Zul Gurub (or however the new one is spelled). BWL, Blackwing Lair.

Are these things you can only get involved with at level 60?

Some of those can be done a little lower than 60, particularly if you're in a raid, but I've definitely heard the opinion that if you aren't 60 for the high-end stuff, you're more of a drag on the group than a help.

Murglor

10-05-2005, 12:01 PM

Blackwing's Lair opened a while back, and is insanely hard. We routinely pulverize everything in the Molten Core save Ragnaros, the god of fire, in a single day, and have yet to beat the first encounter in Blackwing's Lair.

Mapache, what server/side/guild are you with? I'm with Militiae Templi (alliance) on Magtheridon; we raid MC with Kings and Exalted.

BWL is far-and-away the hardest instance in the game right now; our raiding alliance hasn't even *tried* to start progressing in it. The rumor is that Silithus will eventually feature another 60+ instance with an external "easy" instance (a la BWL, which is actually located inside UBRS, or MC, located in BRD), and which will be even more difficult than Blackwing Lair.

Abulia

10-05-2005, 01:13 PM

I hit 60 on Monday. This weekend I'll try my first raiding and see how I like it. Honestly, I don't know if I'll keep playing at the endgame. Half the fun, for me, is getting to 60. Now that I've accompished that goal, I don't really feel like playing with that character anymore.

Don't get me wrong, getting phat loot and stuff is nice. I just don't want to have to raid the same instance 20 times, at 2-6 hours a shot to get there. I'm a casual player. Making it to 60 in 13 days played surprised no one moreso than me. :)

wdarkk

10-05-2005, 02:36 PM

Mapache, what server/side/guild are you with? I'm with Militiae Templi (alliance) on Magtheridon; we raid MC with Kings and Exalted.

BWL is far-and-away the hardest instance in the game right now; our raiding alliance hasn't even *tried* to start progressing in it. The rumor is that Silithus will eventually feature another 60+ instance with an external "easy" instance (a la BWL, which is actually located inside UBRS, or MC, located in BRD), and which will be even more difficult than Blackwing Lair.

That's not so much a rumor as "what has been announced by Tigole" at this point. Supposedly the jump in difficulty from BWL to AQ (the silithus instance) will be lower than the jump from MC to BWL - the second boss of BWL could take any two bosses in MC other than geddon and ragnaros at the same time.

bv728

10-05-2005, 02:46 PM

While others are certain the maximum level will never be raised, as the entire talent system is designed around only having as many points as a level 60 character has, and allowing higher level characters to interact with the current end-game content would reduce it to a total joke, only increasing complaints from bored players, and costing Blizzard subscriptions in the long run. It is quite likely that future character advancement of some form will exist, but not necessarily in the form of additional levels.

The current common expectation, and one which fits most of the known facts, would be Hero Classes that you can add on to your current class but reset you to effective level 1; the commonly bandied around idea is very similar to Dual-Classing from AD&D or Subjobbing from FFXI. Since the developers have said they want to do Hero Classes, I strongly suspect that such will take the place of raising level caps.

Peter LaCara

10-05-2005, 03:54 PM

No one has described the Battlegrounds yet, which is the main reason that I keep playing in the end game.

There are currently three Battlegrounds in the game:

Warsong Gulch, a capture the flag game with 10 people on each side. It's broken up into level tiers, so everyone who is level 20-29 fight in one tier, 30-39 in another, and so on, all the way up to level 60 (which gets its own tier).

Alterac Valley, an absolutely huge battleground with multiple objectives and many NPCs inside. The ultimate object of the game is to kill the opposing team's general. It's crazy. You can do things like call in air strikes or order cavalry charges. Alterac Valley games generally take 4-5 hours to fully resolve. Unlike Warsong Gulch (WSG) and Arathi Basin (AB), it is restricted only to characters lvl 51-60.

Arathi Basin, a 15 vs 15 battleground tiered like WSG. There are five locations on the map: a Farm, Stables, Lumber Mill, Mine, and Blacksmith. Capturing and holding these locations give your team a steady trickle of resource points. The first team to amass 2000 points wins. This is currently my favorite BG, because I feel like it has the most strategy to it, and no matter what, the way the game is constructed means that a match almost always ends inside of a half hour. No hour-long turtling sessions like you can sometimes see in WSG.

Winning a match in each BS gives each team bonus honor points, as well as a small faction bonus with whatever group is associated with that battleground. As you get higher faction with that group, you can buy better and better items.

If you want to learn more about the story behind each of these battlegrounds, or just read up on them in general, Blizzard's website (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/pvp/battlegrounds/index.html;jsessionid=2D91A73C0DCD5D2A387707B69C4F1B37.app01 ) for them is probably the best place to look.

Abulia

10-05-2005, 04:03 PM

Elbast

10-05-2005, 04:14 PM

Is there a newbie guide for Battlegrounds? Part of the reason I haven't tried them is because, honestly, I've heard nothing but horror stories on how newbies are treated. Even though I'm level 60, I don't know squat about Battlegrounds or how to be an effective player. ("Quit and make room for a decent player N00B!")
I rarely enter battlegrounds either... However the only key facet as far as I've been able to tell is teamwork.

I'd think most people understand you can only get good through practice, and will appreciate if you are trying, learning and working with the rest (following instructions and so forth) whereas you could be the most badass player ever in terms of pure fighting skills, but if you're not working with others, you'll be a liability.

Thornhammer

10-05-2005, 06:44 PM

While others are certain the maximum level will never be raised, as the entire talent system is designed around only having as many points as a level 60 character has, and allowing higher level characters to interact with the current end-game content would reduce it to a total joke, only increasing complaints from bored players, and costing Blizzard subscriptions in the long run. It is quite likely that future character advancement of some form will exist, but not necessarily in the form of additional levels.

I know! They'll beat the Naughty Sorceress, then go through the Gash and get reincarnated as as 1st level character.

-Thornhammer (got his Loathing on)

Mapache

10-06-2005, 11:09 AM

Mapache, what server/side/guild are you with? I'm with Militiae Templi (alliance) on Magtheridon; we raid MC with Kings and Exalted.

I'm on Argent Dawn Alliance. We're not actually a guild or guild-alliance based-raid; we're just a standing raid of individuals.

DaR

10-06-2005, 11:27 AM

I rarely enter battlegrounds either... However the only key facet as far as I've been able to tell is teamwork.

I'd think most people understand you can only get good through practice, and will appreciate if you are trying, learning and working with the rest (following instructions and so forth) whereas you could be the most badass player ever in terms of pure fighting skills, but if you're not working with others, you'll be a liability.

Pretty much. I ignored the BGs (and PvP entirely, being on a PvE server) from level 20 up until just about level 40. So when I hit my first BG, I had no clue what I was doing, and was working with 14 other people who had clearly done this before. My first thing to do was to find someone experienced and just follow them around. Especially in Arathi Basin, you'll end up forming a raid group, either before or right at the beginning of the game. Ask for an invite, then just find one of the people in your group and shadow them. Kill anyone they kill, go everywhere they go. If you die (and you will, a lot), just find them again, and keep it going. Watch the raid chat and see what people are doing. Eventually you'll get a feel for the sort of instructions being passed out; one or two people will end up being the strategic leaders of the raid, calling out for people to reinforce various portions of the map, when to abandon things, etc.

I still die a lot, and I'm no where near qualified to run the rest of the group, but I've gotten pretty competent at sticking with my group, reporting when the opposing faction is zerg rushing a location, and otherwise being a useful contributor. I'm at the low end of my bracket (40 Warlock in the 40-49 bracket), so I die a lot; I almost always lead the 'deaths' count on my team. :) Despite that though, I do pretty well in both the kills and objectives achieved counts, too. Largely because I'm completely unafraid to die if it lets me stall the opponents until more qualified people show up. I figure if a rogue is busy ganking me, he's not working on the guy who can actually take down two or three of their side.

-DaR

Elbast

10-06-2005, 05:39 PM

I've been in AB precisely twice, both in the 60 bracket. First time we were steamrollered (we had 8 to their full 15, and they were the "PvP elites" of the Alliance, so some Horde wimped out, didn't join the raid and did nothing). Second time, we arranged the raid before we went in, did much better.

Start was still iffy... they'd clearly planned to zerg to the farm, then try to camp the Defiler's home graveyard. If half our team hadn't spent too long trying to fight their way out in ones and twos, and instead skirted around that group or charged them en masse, we'd have won it comfortably. As it was, they'd hit 1000 before we got going... ended up being a 2000-1970 result.

Tactics went to hell - in that the pre-formed plan quickly went to shit - but their were plenty thinking on their feet so we chopped, changed, and struck in effective ways, and so nearly clawed back what should have been a lost cause.

Only reason I don't go more is a) I'm on an RP server, and the Battelgrounds are all out of character for me; b) I hate pickup groups; c) hard to get enough guildies interested in any given game to make me consider it worthwhile, and most importantly d) I prefer open field PvP.... where the assualts generate RP opportunities and the battlefields are more contained, but less restrained - if that makes any sense at all ;)

Peter LaCara

10-07-2005, 03:57 AM

Only reason I don't go more is a) I'm on an RP server, and the Battelgrounds are all out of character for me; b) I hate pickup groups; c) hard to get enough guildies interested in any given game to make me consider it worthwhile, and most importantly d) I prefer open field PvP.... where the assualts generate RP opportunities and the battlefields are more contained, but less restrained - if that makes any sense at all ;)
See, I'm exactly the opposite. I kind of loathe open-field PvP, as it feels utterly pointless to me, and often times involves the othe side killing quest givers that lower level characters who simply can't participate due to their power level need for their quests. On the other hand, I can't get enough of Battlegrounds, because there is a clear objective involved, and there is a clear winner and loser in each case, and above all you know everyone there is there to PvP and right around the same power level, so you can feel free to cut loose with everything you've got and not worry about someone in the raid accidentally AoEing a civilian and racking up dishonerable kills.

As for PvP in general, the only way to get better at it is to practice, basically. If you're just starting now at level 60, you're going to be somewhat behind the curve because PvP at lvl 60 is very HARD compared to lower levels, where each class has a million tricks up their sleave, and most of the hardcore PvPers know everyone's tricks and the appropriate counter to them. These are all things you're only going to learn from experience, and you'd probably be better off practicing at a lower level, where things don't happen quite so fast. Even the level 50-59 bracket is much more relaxed than the 60 bracket, where it's possible to die in 2-3 hits if someone gets a lucky crit.

My advice would be to read up on the PvP section on Blizzard's website, and study the maps of the battlegrounds before going in. The advice to shadow another player is a good once, since you pretty much always want to be working in a group anyway.

Other than that, I suggest you jump in and have fun, and fuck anyone who calls you a clueless n00b. It's okay to lose, because you still get honor and reputation for your time (though, not as much as for a win, obviously), and chalk everything up to a learning experience.

Elbast

10-07-2005, 05:30 AM

Probably good valid adivce for most people. :)

I personally don't consider myself behind the curve generally - I've been in defensive raids in open field PvP for a long time, and know how to be effective in a team - but specific tactics for the BGs are another matter (hence only being interested in going in with enough friends, guildies etc.). It's solo situations where I suck, but I'm really not too concerned about that (though duels with known opponents are a good way of learning about the various abilities and tactics of other classes/players). I never have to worry about DKs myself since I'm not an agressor, solely a defender. :)

Lower levels can get involved, by the way... just yesterday my lvl 24 mage kept a 46th level paladin occupied in 1-on-1 long enough for help to arrive and drive the aggressor into the ground. The sod only killed me when he came back with 2 friends, both also 40+ - well over the active range for Stonetalon - and started a "gank the lowbies for revenge" attack. Could've avoided it all by unflagging after the initial attack but that would've spoiled the moment :D

I then made the trip to Hammerfall several levels too soon to take part in a defense there. It was too unbalanced, though and I did swap out for my druid in order to beef the defense in the end.

Mortaneus

10-07-2005, 05:48 AM

WoW at level 60 is similar to Diablo2 after beating Hell mode.

Bull

10-07-2005, 06:26 AM

WoW at level 60 is similar to Diablo2 after beating Hell mode.

I'd say it depends on how much you play, and what your goals for playing the game are.

If you play a lot, don't want to play an alt, and don;t want to quest for epic sets of gear, yeah, it'll get boring.

I play pretty casually, and I'm interested in playing and exploring with friends, so even at 60, I have plenty to do. Solo, yeah, I get bored because tehre's only so much to do and not much point to many things. But for those occasions, I play an alt to explore area sand quests I missed the first time through, and to experience the game with a differnet type of character.

Bull

Murglor

10-07-2005, 08:00 AM

I've now hit 60 with two characters, and am not going to start a new alt until I at least know the details of the expansion. There's really no longer any questing that I can (or want to) do alone, and I don't really enjoy farming.

But my guild and our allies hit MC (twice) and Onyxia every week, which fills 3 evenings pretty well. And if I want to play more than that, I can always be helping some of my lower-level guildies, or running a 5-man instance for kicks, so I'm far from bored.

Copernicus

10-07-2005, 12:22 PM

I hit MC once, BWL twice, and ZG two or three times a week.

I'm glad that WoW finally has something to do at 60 besides MC/Onyxia.

MadDogMike

10-07-2005, 12:32 PM

I hit MC once, BWL twice, and ZG two or three times a week.

I'm glad that WoW finally has something to do at 60 besides MC/Onyxia.

ZG is probably my favorite of the raid instances (though I still have a soft spot for killing Rend in UBRS); not only is it much easier to round up 20 decent people for us smaller guilds (and no worries about keys like UBRS), the reputation and all the little drops for the various quests make it easier for everyone to walk away with something for the raid. That and it's just a pretty instance; not all just flaming red rock everywhere like MC but a nice lush landscape. And you can see Hakkar from the start, which is nice encouragement ;) .

Elbast

10-07-2005, 04:59 PM

ZG is probably my favorite of the raid instances (though I still have a soft spot for killing Rend in UBRS); not only is it much easier to round up 20 decent people for us smaller guilds (and no worries about keys like UBRS), the reputation and all the little drops for the various quests make it easier for everyone to walk away with something for the raid. That and it's just a pretty instance; not all just flaming red rock everywhere like MC but a nice lush landscape. And you can see Hakkar from the start, which is nice encouragement ;) .
Yeah.

Just come out of a ZG raid... got together 20 people across 3 small guilds and some known outsiders. Many folk going for the first time, yet we overcome early trouble to progress more smoothly through the bat-riders and take down the bat priestess.

It's a fun, atmospheric place, and certainly acheivable with easily assembled groups and more casual-friendly.