(D&D 3.5) The Spiked Chain Fighter.

[Wakshaani]

I've never actually seen one, but, one's lurking around one of my gaming groups just now.

What, exactly, does the build entail?

Anybody?

[Fade]

A spiked chain, Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip. Improved Disarm is a good add. Get lots of AoOs, trip and disarm people, then get more AoOs as they try and recover. Never give them a chance to fight back.

[Random Nerd]

Err, go to <a href="http://www.giantitp.com/oots/oots0216.gif">here</a>.

[Squid]

<img src="http://www.giantitp.com/oots/oots0216.gif">


Ah, yes, the venerable Red X method of Spiked Chain combat...truely frightening!

(Good link, though. :P)

[Takei]

Being under the effect of Enlarge Person is also handy as your reach increases from 10 ft to 20ft. Combined with Combat Reflexes you make people really twitchy about provoking AoO within quite a large area.

[Raxmei]

The core of the build is having Improved Trip. The spiked chain is a reach weapon, so you have to leave a threatened square to get next to the wielder to attack in melee. The provokes an attack of opportunity, which is used to trip. When the person gets up that provokes another attack of opportunity - by the rules you can't trip with this attack, but some people do it anyway. With any luck the enemy will never get a full attack on you and you'll be giving out a bunch of extra hits outside your turn though the AoOs. This is a battlefield control build, not a direct damage one.

You'll obviously want spiked chain proficiency to do this. Then Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. A human fighter can take all three of these at first level. Since you rely heavily on attacks of opportunity the feat Combat Reflexes is also very useful. Then you get into extras like Improved Disarm, Weapon Focus and Specialization. I'm sure there are a ton of people around who can recite the exact feats required and the order to take them in. It helps to have a wizard to cast Enlarge Person on you because that both increases your reach and makes tripping people easier. Carry a few spare weapons so when you fail a trip attempt you can just drop the weapon and draw a new one.

[Random Nerd]

Ah, yes, the venerable Red X method of Spiked Chain combat...truely frightening!

(Good link, though. :P)


Uh, it looks fine to me. Odd.

[Fade]

Uh, it looks fine to me. Odd.
That's because the image is still in your cache. I manually viewed the image, meaning in now shows up in-line for me too.

[Raxmei]

The comic isn't quite right on the rules anyway. That half ogre only gets one attack of opportunity for that movement.
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.A half ogre chain fighter is powerful because of its large size and strength bonus, not because of getting two attacks of opportunity on charging opponents.

[D. Archon]

Err, go to <a href="http://www.giantitp.com/oots/oots0216.gif">here</a>.

And the giant red"X"s cousin, the feared "You are not authorized to view this page" monster!:p :D

[Piestrio]

And the giant red"X"s cousin, the feared "You are not authorized to view this page" monster!:p :D


OH NOES!!!

[Fade]

May I offer a working (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=216) link?

[Kintara]

The comic isn't quite right on the rules anyway. That half ogre only gets one attack of opportunity for that movement.
A half ogre chain fighter is powerful because of its large size and strength bonus, not because of getting two attacks of opportunity on charging opponents.
He probably has Hold the Line, too.

Edit: And possibly Stand Still would have helped. :D
--
Specifically, I think the "five feats" mentioned are Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Reflexes, and EWP: Spiked Chain, so technically Raxmei is right. He'd need six feats if he really wanted to do it. ;)

[Katsue]

Defensive Throw and Karmic Strike are also handy Feats to pick up when doing that build, though they won't help you if you're charged on the first round. The former requires Improved Unarmed Strike, which is a good bit less useful when you're using a Spiked Chain than when you're using a Guisarme.

Also, I can't believe no one has mentioned Deft Opportunist.

[Radical Authority]

We had a total munchkin spiked chain built monk (githyanki, yet!) in our D&D game. For all his fearsome rep, he was always first to crumble and didn't get half the kills of my fighter/rogue.

RA

[Killfalcon]

We had a total munchkin spiked chain built monk (githyanki, yet!) in our D&D game. For all his fearsome rep, he was always first to crumble and didn't get half the kills of my fighter/rogue.

RA

Spiked Chain Dude does have the problem of not moving a lot, and tending not to have too many mooks near him. Wizards and archers see them as easy pickings.

The one I played alongside's (a human Ravager with an Adamantine Razored Spicked Chain, no less) most notable kill was another PC, thanks to mind control spells.

The spiked chain user is remarkably unpleasant to try and fight one on one if you lack ranged weapons/magic or a good enough tumble score. After all, it's a flat DC to just walk right through a few squares or razor death. :)

[Radical Authority]

I got the impression he'd be good against crowds of mooks, buts that's not what we tended to encounter. He didn't seem to have a good enough BAB to hit the big boys and didn't do enough damage to really make a difference when we were up against guys with three-figure hps.

Edit: Plus, alot of the big monsters have reach, negating one of the chain's big benefits. Also, he had low AC and hits, and a tendency to run in ahead of the bricks to try and steal the kills, generally ending up totally thumped by the end of the first round.

RA

[Killfalcon]

I got the impression he'd be good against crowds of mooks, buts that's not what we tended to encounter. He didn't seem to have a good enough BAB to hit the big boys and didn't do enough damage to really make a difference when we were up against guys with three-figure hps.

Edit: Plus, alot of the big monsters have reach, negating one of the chain's big benefits. Also, he had low AC and hits, and a tendency to run in ahead of the bricks to try and steal the kills, generally ending up totally thumped by the end of the first round.

RA

What class was he? Most of the recommended versions of the build have D10 hit dice and fighter BAB. This might be one of those 'bad build' moments rather than a weakness in the overall strategy.

[Radical Authority]

He was a monk, and I think he had githyanki racial levels too. This was just after the "play a monster!" book came out (I forget the title) and everyone in my group was mad keen on them. I don't think they worked out very well for any of them. My vanilla dwarf fighter thief owned that party!

RA

[Killfalcon]

He was a monk, and I think he had githyanki racial levels too. This was just after the "play a monster!" book came out (I forget the title) and everyone in my group was mad keen on them. I don't think they worked out very well for any of them. My vanilla dwarf fighter thief owned that party!

RA

Oh, he had an ECL race. That's just about never worthwhile, mechanically.

Not that that's stopped me when I wanted to play a wierd critter.

[hackmastergeneral]

The comic isn't quite right on the rules anyway. That half ogre only gets one attack of opportunity for that movement.
A half ogre chain fighter is powerful because of its large size and strength bonus, not because of getting two attacks of opportunity on charging opponents.

No, according to 3.5 rules, you do.

We had this arguement last week. The book specifically says if you charge through two threatened squares in a creatures threat range, he gets an AoO on each, as long as you have Combat Reflexes. You get one AoO per OPPORTUNITY. Each threatened square in a threat range counts as one opportunity. It explicitly says this in the book.

I know, I hate it too. Makes it so you need to be a large creature to get the most effective melee options.

[CLAVDIVS]

The comic isn't quite right on the rules anyway. That half ogre only gets one attack of opportunity for that movement.
I thought that each 5-foot square of movement was a separate 'opportunity', but I just checked d20srd.org and apparently not; maybe they changed that in 3.5.

[Killfalcon]

I know, I hate it too. Makes it so you need to be a large creature to get the most effective melee options.

Or use Enlarge Person. I remember being disturbed at how low level a spell it was.

[Raxmei]

No, according to 3.5 rules, you do.

We had this arguement last week. The book specifically says if you charge through two threatened squares in a creatures threat range, he gets an AoO on each, as long as you have Combat Reflexes. You get one AoO per OPPORTUNITY. Each threatened square in a threat range counts as one opportunity. It explicitly says this in the book.

I know, I hate it too. Makes it so you need to be a large creature to get the most effective melee options.
How strange. I just quoted the part of the rulebook that specifically says you don't get multiple attacks of opportunity for that. "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent." That exact sentence is in both the 3.5 SRD and 3.5 Player's Handbook (Page 138). By my reading that means that moving through multiple threatened squares counts as a single opportunity.

[CLAVDIVS]

We had this arguement last week. The book specifically says if you charge through two threatened squares in a creatures threat range, he gets an AoO on each, as long as you have Combat Reflexes. You get one AoO per OPPORTUNITY. Each threatened square in a threat range counts as one opportunity. It explicitly says this in the book.
Saw this post right after I made mine.

From the SRD: http://d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm

"Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent."

EDIT: GAH! That keeps happening!

[Wakshaani]

Right then, so far so good.

So, a coulpe of questions.

The Spiked-Chain is a two-handed weapon, so, it gets a damage bonus equal to 1 1/2X Strength, correct? So an 18 Strength would give it + damage?

Also, it can be used as a two-weapon, letting you make an off-hand attack. But this still counts as a two-handed weapon as well (so... weird...) So, how does THAT damage work? Again, assumnig the 18 Strength above, you'd get, what? 4 X 1.5 = 6, 6 / 2 = 3 ... + 3 damage on the off-hand attack?

Lordy, but this is a weird-ass weapon.

And how would Power attack interact with this? A power attack of, say, 4, would become +8 for the primary hand, since a two-handed weapon gets a 2-1 boost, but I'm not sure how the off-hand would work. Is it two-handed also? Light? Two-handed *and* light? GAH!

Note to self: Just ban the damn thing.

[Killfalcon]

Right then, so far so good.

So, a coulpe of questions.

The Spiked-Chain is a two-handed weapon, so, it gets a damage bonus equal to 1 1/2X Strength, correct? So an 18 Strength would give it +6 damage?


I don't think so.

And even if it could be used that way, as a 'double weapon' it wouldn't get the +1/2 strength bonus anymore, it'd just be a pair of light weapons, rules wise.

[Tyrrell]

I had a character in a party with one of these characters (A human Fighter with a player who played the rules well). The character was remarkably effective. As it turned out, his cheesy build made my character remarkably effective as well. I ran the archer specialist who stood behind the spiked chain guy and forced opponants to try and run through his threat zone in order to stop the arrow barrage of doom.

[Dragon_Blooded]

Right then, so far so good.

So, a coulpe of questions.

The Spiked-Chain is a two-handed weapon, so, it gets a damage bonus equal to 1 1/2X Strength, correct? So an 18 Strength would give it + damage?

Also, it can be used as a two-weapon, letting you make an off-hand attack. But this still counts as a two-handed weapon as well (so... weird...) So, how does THAT damage work? Again, assumnig the 18 Strength above, you'd get, what? 4 X 1.5 = 6, 6 / 2 = 3 ... + 3 damage on the off-hand attack?

Lordy, but this is a weird-ass weapon.

And how would Power attack interact with this? A power attack of, say, 4, would become +8 for the primary hand, since a two-handed weapon gets a 2-1 boost, but I'm not sure how the off-hand would work. Is it two-handed also? Light? Two-handed *and* light? GAH!

Note to self: Just ban the damn thing.

You must choose to use it either as a two-handed weapon (and get the +1/2 Str bonus), or as a double weapon (in which case it counts as a light weapon on the off-hand), never both at the same time.

Eduardo Penna

[vitus979]

You must choose to use it either as a two-handed weapon (and get the +1/2 Str bonus), or as a double weapon (in which case it counts as a light weapon on the off-hand), never both at the same time.

Eduardo Penna

And it doesn't matter because the Spiked Chain isn't a Double Weapon at all. The only way to TWF a Spiked Chain is to take the 3.0 prestige class 'Master of Chains' (?) that was in Sword & Fist.

Also yes, for purposes of Power Attack you get the 2-for-1 bonus.

[vitus979]

A lot of people also go with Weapon Finesse with the spike chain since a high DEX grants more AoO.

[OldKentuckyShark]

You must choose to use it either as a two-handed weapon (and get the +1/2 Str bonus), or as a double weapon (in which case it counts as a light weapon on the off-hand), never both at the same time.

Eduardo Penna
The spiked chain cannot be used as a double weapon.

This is one of those weird DND memes, because nowhere, except in a line from the Master of Chains prestige class, has it EVER been able to be used as a double weapon. And yet this is a very common misunderstanding.

[Dragon_Blooded]

And it doesn't matter because the Spiked Chain isn't a Double Weapon at all. The only way to TWF a Spiked Chain is to take the 3.0 prestige class 'Master of Chains' (?) that was in Sword & Fist.

Also yes, for purposes of Power Attack you get the 2-for-1 bonus.

You're right, of course. I got confused because the only time I played a spiked-chain user, I quickly went for the Master of Chains PrC. Sorry for the confusion.

Eduardo Penna

[DanMcS]

The spiked chain cannot be used as a double weapon.

This is one of those weird DND memes, because nowhere, except in a line from the Master of Chains prestige class, has it EVER been able to be used as a double weapon. And yet this is a very common misunderstanding.

The chain weapon in d20 modern, however, could, which is quite possibly where this came from.

[DanMcS]

I got the impression he'd be good against crowds of mooks, buts that's not what we tended to encounter. He didn't seem to have a good enough BAB to hit the big boys and didn't do enough damage to really make a difference when we were up against guys with three-figure hps.

Yes. I played a monk that ended up with a spiked chain (an NPC used it on us, I took it away from him and just kinda hung onto it). Already had combat reflexes and improved trip. It was very good against mooks, but as a monk, you're already good against mooks. It was useful as a tripping weapon against main bad guys, because at that point it's only a touch attack and then opposed trip check, so I had a good chance of pulling that off. But actually attacking primary bad guys with it was more useless than my regular flurry attacks.

[slayride27]

I'd say one of the more terrifying builds of this I seen was a Half-Ogre (Lareg Sized) Spiked Chain user in 3.0 who took the Large and in Charge feat. Whenever someone entered his threatened space, and he made a successful AoO, he could attempt a Strength check to force them back 1 space (Meaning that they'd lose their attack, unable to reach the Half-Ogre). With this and Combat Reflexes, it was extremely difficult to even get close to him to attack at all.

[Reynard]

I'd say one of the more terrifying builds of this I seen was a Half-Ogre (Lareg Sized) Spiked Chain user in 3.0 who took the Large and in Charge feat. Whenever someone entered his threatened space, and he made a successful AoO, he could attempt a Strength check to force them back 1 space (Meaning that they'd lose their attack, unable to reach the Half-Ogre). With this and Combat Reflexes, it was extremely difficult to even get close to him to attack at all.

As a DM, I *love* Large and In Charge. It is a good way for the big guys to last more than a couple rounds, since mosty parties tend to gang up on and punk beat anything bigger than Medium size.

[Wakshaani]

Huh!

So it can't even be *used* as paired weapons?

Freaky.

This weapon so very much shouldn't exist. It just wants to crawl in my ear and go all Attack of Opportunity on my brain.

[Lolth]

I used spiked chains in the hands of dracotaurs (very advanced fighter build, though not utterly optimized for it)...

And here's the feats they had:

Cleave, Combat Reflexes (4 AoO), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Great Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain), Greater Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain), Improved Buckler Defense [we have a houserule that allows this feat to be used with two-handed weapons as well], Improved Critical (Spiked Chain), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Monkey Grip, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain), Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain)

Pay attention to the bolded bit.

Dracotaurs, large creatures. Wielding huge spiked chains. Heeeeeeeee. :D

That was an impressive fight.

[vitus979]

Huh!

So it can't even be *used* as paired weapons?

Freaky.

This weapon so very much shouldn't exist. It just wants to crawl in my ear and go all Attack of Opportunity on my brain.

No, the spiked chain can't be used as a double weapon in *almost* any circumstance. Now in the true spirit of weirdness there's a blunt chain in IIRC Complete Warrior that's exactly the same as a Spiked Chain (excpet d6 damage and blunt damage type) except it *can* be used as a double weapon.

:rolleyes:

[Epoch]

No, the spiked chain can't be used as a double weapon in *almost* any circumstance. Now in the true spirit of weirdness there's a blunt chain in IIRC Complete Warrior that's exactly the same as a Spiked Chain (excpet d6 damage and blunt damage type) except it *can* be used as a double weapon.

:rolleyes:

Yeah, and I think that there are some spiked-chain-like weapons in OA (like the kusari-gama) that work the same way.

But, indeed, by the rules, the Spiked Chain is simply a two-handed weapon, not a double-weapon.

[Kintara]

The chain is in the Arms and Equipment Guide, I believe. I'm not sure if it was ever updated to 3.5.

Personally, I think the spiked chain is overpowered, but the real offense is that the picture in the PHB is stupid. If you do use it, please try imagining a spikier version of Gogo Yubari's weapon in Kill Bill, instead.

[Tait Ransom]

Note to self: Just ban the damn thing.

One of my favorite quotes from the WotC boards is "Just ignore the spiked chain. It was placed there to see if anyone would have the guts to ban core material from their campaigns. Wizards is tracking those who do, and will use the genetic material from this toughened group to breed the next generation of role players and DMs."

[wokuma]

One of my favorite quotes from the WotC boards is "Just ignore the spiked chain. It was placed there to see if anyone would have the guts to ban core material from their campaigns. Wizards is tracking those who do, and will use the genetic material from this toughened group to breed the next generation of role players and DMs."

The rest, if you can cope with the spiked chain, can call themselves "Old School."

;)

[Narshal]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned a great spike chain build.
An enlarged spike chain user with whirlwind attack can have 76 attacks at his highest attack bonus if surrounded by 76 medium sized creatures. The fun part is that a human 6th level fighter can do it and still have an extra feat like improved trip. :)

[Caduceus]

A spiked chain is almost the only weapon where it is worth it to get whirlwind attack. But for the spiked chain (even a medium one), whirlwind attack is GOLD.

Do small spiked chains get a reach of C,1 or 1,2?

[Dragon_Blooded]

The chain is in the Arms and Equipment Guide, I believe. I'm not sure if it was ever updated to 3.5.

Personally, I think the spiked chain is overpowered, but the real offense is that the picture in the PHB is stupid. If you do use it, please try imagining a spikier version of Gogo Yubari's weapon in Kill Bill, instead.

OTOH, it looks amazingly cool in the picture below, which I dearly hope gets included on the 2007 D&D calendar:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/calendar_89492.jpg

Eduardo Penna

[Packrat]

*Looks at the picture*


He.. He wears belts! Belts, and chains, and shoulder pads. That is it!

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Dude belts are some sort of strange fashion fad in art that is getting kinda creepy. What's up with people wearing 10 belts and no pants? It's not even like some sort of crazy strap-heavy leather chest piece ensemble. Though the rationale might make for cool characters "I collect the belt from every worthy foe I fight!" but it is a bit strange.

[LurkingTroll]

I can't seem to find it, but I was under the impression a trip could be used as part of an AoO, although the additional attack granted by the feat only applied as part of a standard or full action.

[Silent Wayfarer]

If you want to ban core material, go look at the druid first. A spiked chain isn't broken enough to compare with a druid at any level.

[Raxmei]

I can't seem to find it, but I was under the impression a trip could be used as part of an AoO, although the additional attack granted by the feat only applied as part of a standard or full action.I know you can trip as an AoO (you can also disarm or sunder), but I don't know where you're getting that other part from. The additional attack from Improved Trip should apply whenever you're using a trip attempt as your attack action, which is what you do when you trip as an AoO. The only time I can think of where a character with Improved Trip would not get the additional attack is with a werewolf character using his trip ability.

[Lolth]

I can't seem to find it, but I was under the impression a trip could be used as part of an AoO, although the additional attack granted by the feat only applied as part of a standard or full action.
You can trip instead of 'attacking properly' (trip is a melee touch attack) as an AoO.

With Improved Trip, you can do the trip, and IF successful, follow it with an attack (see the feat description). Trip is not a full-round action or anything like that. Got multiple attacks? Go ahead and try to trip with all of 'em.

[Lolth]

I know you can trip as an AoO (you can also disarm or sunder), but I don't know where you're getting that other part from. The additional attack from Improved Trip should apply whenever you're using a trip attempt as your attack action, which is what you do when you trip as an AoO. The only time I can think of where a character with Improved Trip would not get the additional attack is with a werewolf character using his trip ability.
Actually, I asked WotC about Improved Trip and werewolven/wolf trip ability, and they said, YES, you GET that attack.

I sent a question worded like this...
Hello! I have couple of small problems that cropped up during the play, and I'd like to get them solved before I pick a feat or two that may turn out as a disappointment...

I play a character who is a natural lycanthrope (Lythari). She has wolf's trip special attack in her wolven form.

A wolf can attempt to trip right after successful bite attack, bypassing the need for a melee touch attack.

However, what happens if I pick Improved Trip feat? Do I...
A) Make a bite as normal, attempt to trip with +4 bonus and follow with a bite if I manage to do it? (It would make sense -- first, the wolf bites, flips the prey over and then savages it.)
or
B) Make a melee touch attack with +4 bonus, and then bite, as normal.

The confusion comes from this being done with a natural weapon; natural weapons, after all, usually get only one attack per set per round (AoOs and such withstanding). I'd like to hear some feedback about this before I proceed to pick the feat tree for this trick -- it is fairly crucial, because as a Lythari I have only the wolven form, not the hybrid form, and sometimes it is a good idea to plan ahead to take the advantage of given perks.

My second question is related to Warshaper prestige class from Complete Warrior:

Is there any limit on how many natural attack "sets" a character can produce with the morphic weapons class ability? Could I grow BOTH claws and horns and quills and whatever in my altered shape? Or just one set, e.g. claws?

And speaking of quills, where could I find rules for them? (A porcupine would be a very nice familiar... not to mention that quills would work wonders in case I get grappled.)

Thank you in advance!
And here's what they said:
Thank you for contacting us ,

The Improved Trip feat is pretty darn nice for your Lythari. It works just like in option A as you described.

The Morphic Weapon ability only allows you to make one weapon at a time, but you can change it every round. The natural attacks you can choose from are listed on page 312 of the Monster Manual v.3.5. Bite, Claw/Talon, Gore, Slap/Slam, Sting, Tentacle. Quills aren't really an attack type you can make an attack roll with (there is no generic quill rule either). But any other unusual attack types are adjudicated by the DM.

[Raxmei]

Heh, I was certain I had read a Sage Advice saying the exact opposite. Must be contagious.

[Lolth]

Heh, I was certain I had read a Sage Advice saying the exact opposite. Must be contagious.
It happens, it happens. :D

However, this gives a whole wide world of new opportunities for werewolves... as they can get the prerequisites together for Improved Trip (needs Combat Expertise, which requires Int 13).

Other goodies for werewolves? There's 'Surrogate Spell' in Savage Species, which works just like 'Natural Spell' feat in core SRD, except it doesn't require Wild Shape, but alternate form instead (and which is why we've expanded Natural Spell to cover that too, just to cut down the number of feats). A lycanthrope cleric is nothing to sneer at -- especially if she works as a mount for slower-moving members of the party (i.e. that halfling rogue -- works great to keep the wee guy alive as well). :D

Plus, Warshaper works great with werewolves.

[Mr Adventurer]

Don't forget that you can Whirlwind Trip! And Whirlwind Disarm!

[Wakshaani]

If you want to ban core material, go look at the druid first. A spiked chain isn't broken enough to compare with a druid at any level.


Eh? First time that I've heard that one. Usually it's teh Cleric that gets blasted for broken-ness of teh core peoples.

[Reynard]

Eh? First time that I've heard that one. Usually it's teh Cleric that gets blasted for broken-ness of teh core peoples.

Even mid level druids are very powerful, given their spell repetoire and their ability to wild shape. I don't think they are broken, mind, but they are powerful.

[LurkingTroll]

You can trip instead of 'attacking properly' (trip is a melee touch attack) as an AoO.

With Improved Trip, you can do the trip, and IF successful, follow it with an attack (see the feat description). Trip is not a full-round action or anything like that. Got multiple attacks? Go ahead and try to trip with all of 'em.
thanks for the update, I'm off to savage my players with a thri-kreen dual-wielder of spike chain/short sword and shield now :D

[Lolth]

thanks for the update, I'm off to savage my players with a thri-kreen dual-wielder of spike chain/short sword and shield now :D
Just remember to put enough into Dex and use Combat Reflexes. Your players (or characters) will curse the day the DM went into the Internet ;)

[LurkingTroll]

Just remember to put enough into Dex and use Combat Reflexes. Your players (or characters) will curse the day the DM went into the Internet ;)
oh, I was all over the other feats, I'm a deeply reviled, yet much-loved GM. just check out the Let PCs be Badass (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=227876)thread :D
I knew that in Arcana Evolved, Improved trip worked as the info on this thread says, due to updates from Wizards reprinted by the sender of the question (thanks, btw. more evil to follow on that one, I promise :D)
I tend to go all nasty-like on feats, and build up stacks of "don't charge me, or I'll hurt you" guys to defend a gate/commander, or go the other way, and stack up the "I charge through and foul up your bigbad, and do it with impunity, because I've got SpringAttack/Spirited Charge! heheh"

[Fade]

You can trip instead of 'attacking properly' (trip is a melee touch attack) as an AoO.

With Improved Trip, you can do the trip, and IF successful, follow it with an attack (see the feat description). Trip is not a full-round action or anything like that. Got multiple attacks? Go ahead and try to trip with all of 'em.
I prefer tripping them with my first attack and disarming them with the bonus, then beat on them with any iteratives. It'll take them an entire round to get ready again (move action to stand up, another to recover their weapon), provoking two more AoOs in the process, and I can use the one from picking up their weapon to trip them again (and get a bonus attack and disarm them...).

[vitus979]

Don't forget that you can Whirlwind Trip! And Whirlwind Disarm!

While you could Whirlwind Trip, you wouldn't get the extra attack from the Improved Trip feat.

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

[vitus979]

Do small spiked chains get a reach of C,1 or 1,2?

Small weapons still have a range of 5ft, so small reach weapons have a range of 10ft.

[LurkingTroll]

Small weapons still have a range of 5ft, so small reach weapons have a range of 10ft.
oh, and large beings using spiked chains don't have a reach of 15 ft.

check out page 112-113 PHB 3.5: Most reach weapons double the user's reach.

thusly, a large critter has a 20ft reach with a spiked chain.

GOOD LUCK! :D

[Lolth]

oh, and large beings using spiked chains don't have a reach of 15 ft.

check out page 112-113 PHB 3.5: Most reach weapons double the user's reach.

thusly, a large critter has a 20ft reach with a spiked chain.

GOOD LUCK! :D
Remember -- Monkey Grip.

Your large creature uses a HUGE weapon. :D :D

[LurkingTroll]

Remember -- Monkey Grip.

Your large creature uses a HUGE weapon. :D :D
aye, for 3d6+1.5xSTR :D!

[Narshal]

Remember -- Monkey Grip.

Your large creature uses a HUGE weapon. :D :D

Hmmm... 25 ft reach. not bad. :)
Monkey grip on a normal human thus use a large spiked chain for 15 ft reach then enlarge hum and thus spike chain becomes huge and he has 25ft reach. :)
Combine it with power attack and you get a powerful weed whacker.

[vitus979]

Hmmm... 25 ft reach. not bad. :)
Monkey grip on a normal human thus use a large spiked chain for 15 ft reach then enlarge hum and thus spike chain becomes huge and he has 25ft reach. :)
Combine it with power attack and you get a powerful weed whacker.

Umm, no. Monkey Grip allows you to wield a weapon 1 size catagory larger than you. A human with a Large Spiked Chain would have a reach of 20ft. An Enlarged human (Large size) would now have a Huge Spiked Chain and a reach of 30ft because a normal Large weapon has a range of 10ft, and a normal Huge weapon has a range of 15ft. As noted above Reach weapons double the range of normal weapons, not add 5ft like they did in 3.0.

[Braugi]

Umm, no. Monkey Grip allows you to wield a weapon 1 size catagory larger than you. A human with a Large Spiked Chain would have a reach of 20ft. An Enlarged human (Large size) would now have a Huge Spiked Chain and a reach of 30ft because a normal Large weapon has a range of 10ft, and a normal Huge weapon has a range of 15ft. As noted above Reach weapons double the range of normal weapons, not add 5ft like they did in 3.0.

I don't think I agree with this. A large creature usually has a reach of 10 ft right? With a Spiked chain, he gets a reach of 20 feet, if its a large spiked chain, so a large spiked chain gives an additional reach of 10 feet. The human sized character would thus have a weapon that extends his reach 10 feet beyond his arm reach, or 15 feet.

In other words, a large spiked chain is made for large sized creatures, doubling their reach to 20 feet. That means its a 10 foot extension over the character's reach, so a human using it would reach 15.

Likewise, a huge creature would have a base reach of 15, and thus a reach weapon that would add 15 feet, doubling his range, to 30 feet. a human sized character, if he could weild a huge chain would have a reach of 20 feet, while a large human would reach 25.

Making a human large sized doesn't give him a reach advantage over an already large sized creature using the same sized weapon.

[Singing Smurf]

...Improved Buckler Defense [we have a houserule that allows this feat to be used with two-handed weapons as well...

*quirks eyebrow*

I thought this worked just fine with the RAW (i.e. not requiring a house rule). Am I missing something in the feat description?

...The human sized character would thus have a weapon that extends his reach 10 feet beyond his arm reach, or 15 feet.

In other words, a large spiked chain is made for large sized creatures, doubling their reach to 20 feet. That means its a 10 foot extension over the character's reach, so a human using it would reach 15.

IIRC, in 3.5, a reach weapon doubles your natural reach, period. I'm at work, so I can't point you to the FAQ entry in question, but a medium character with the Monkey Grip feat or the Powerful Build racial trait still just doubles the natural reach, to 10', even with a size <i>large</i> reach weapon. Enlarge Person or Expansion increases the character to large size, with a natural reach of 10'...so the chain gives them a reach of 20', even with a huge weapon (or with a gargantuan weapon, for that matter). The weapon does more damage, but has no more reach. I'll try to look it up when I get home.

-Smurfy

[Lolth]

Umm, no. Monkey Grip allows you to wield a weapon 1 size catagory larger than you.
Nit-nit-nittypicky (just to summarize the rules a notch better for folks): Monkey Grip allows you to wield an oversized (one category larger) weapon with -2 penalty to attack rolls without changing the weapon's handedness.

So you (a medium-sized humanoid) can wield a large shortsword as one-handed weapon instead of using two hands for it, and you can wield a two-handed weapon instead of not being able to do it. :)

My human warrior has a large greatsword. Purrrrrrrr. 3d6+1-1/2 Str, baby! (And it sparks a no end of jokes about compensation from other PCs. Rah rah.)

[Lolth]

*quirks eyebrow*

I thought this worked just fine with the RAW (i.e. not requiring a house rule). Am I missing something in the feat description?
Well, the feat is worded like this:
Benefits: When you attack with a weapon in your off hand, you may still apply your buckler's shield bonus to your Armor Class.
Normal: Without this feat, a character wielding a buckler who attacks with an off-hand weapon loses the buckler's shield bonus to AC until his or her next turn.
A two-handed weapon, technically and from a really, really, really nitpicky point of view, isn't in your 'off hand' -- you just use two hands to wield it; a weapon in 'off hand' is one that gains benefits from those Two-Weapon fighting combos. The motions of using a two-handed weapon are, in general, different from those that happen when you fight with two weapons.

(Of course, should I be wrong in this issue, all clarifications are happily accepted!)

[Mr Adventurer]

So you (a medium-sized humanoid) can wield a large shortsword as one-handed weapon instead of using two hands for it, and you can wield a two-handed weapon instead of not being able to do it. :)A Medium creature uses a Large Shortsword in one hand, as a one-handed weapon, because a shortsword is normally a light weapon. A Medium creature uses a Large longsword in two hands.

A Medium creature with Monkey Grip uses a Large shortsword as a light weapon.

In all cases, the creature takes -2 on its attack rolls with the weapon.

Also, reach is a function of the creature, not the weapon (apart from "reach weapon/not reach weapon", obviously). A Large creature (normally) has a reach of 10ft, or 20ft with a reach weapon, regardless of the size of that weapon (within reason). Reach weapons can attack out to double the creature's normal reach, but only some can also attack within the creature's reach.

[Narshal]

A two-handed weapon, technically and from a really, really, really nitpicky point of view, isn't in your 'off hand' -- you just use two hands to wield it; a weapon in 'off hand' is one that gains benefits from those Two-Weapon fighting combos. The motions of using a two-handed weapon are, in general, different from those that happen when you fight with two weapons.

Yup, also a two-handed weapon user is more benefited from an animated heavy shield than a buckler anyways.

[Lolth]

A Medium creature uses a Large Shortsword in one hand, as a one-handed weapon, because a shortsword is normally a light weapon. A Medium creature uses a Large longsword in two hands.
Ye gods. I meant, I HONEST TO GODS MEANT to type longsword!

[Singing Smurf]

Well, the feat is worded like this:

A two-handed weapon, technically and from a really, really, really nitpicky point of view, isn't in your 'off hand' -- you just use two hands to wield it; a weapon in 'off hand' is one that gains benefits from those Two-Weapon fighting combos. The motions of using a two-handed weapon are, in general, different from those that happen when you fight with two weapons.

Hm, I can see that, I suppose. The reminder text describing what normally happens makes the case stronger. I'm not super concerned with whether the motions are similar...this is a game where a chain with nails welded to it is one of the most powerful infantry weapons in the world. Realism not so much the issue here.

:-)

Personally, I'd argue that the second hand is <i>occupying</i> the "off hand" slot and therefore qualifies, but it isn't as cut and dried as I initially thought.


-Smurfy

[Kaiu Keiichi]

Waitasec. Isn't it the rule that you can only subject a target to one AOO in a round, no matter how many AOOs you have? In the Order of the Stick Strip, Roy would have only AOO'd once.

CB

[Braugi]

In any case, my primary point was that Vitus was allowing for too much reach for humans with monkey grip...saying a normal sized human with a large spiked chain would be able to reach 20 ft, the same as an Ogre with the same weapon, but that the same human, when enlarged, would reach farther than the Ogre.

[Singing Smurf]

Yup, also a two-handed weapon user is more benefited from an animated heavy shield than a buckler anyways.

This is true. For added fun, try an animated Tower Shield on for size.

The key advantage of the feat is that it's available at first level, really.

In any case, my primary point was that Vitus was allowing for too much reach for humans with monkey grip...

We're in full agreement there.


-Smurfy

[Wookie]

What do you use to animate a shield anyway? :eek:

[Mr Adventurer]

This is true. For added fun, try an animated Tower Shield on for size.

The key advantage of the feat is that it's available at first level, really.
Note that even animated shields still cause all penalties associated with their use, so that an animated Tower Shield still gives a -2 on all attacks, for instance, and you don't dodge the Armour Check Penalty or Arcane Spell Failure chance.

[Mr Adventurer]

What do you use to animate a shield anyway? :eek:
A +2 shield enhancement :p

[Lolth]

Waitasec. Isn't it the rule that you can only subject a target to one AOO in a round, no matter how many AOOs you have? In the Order of the Stick Strip, Roy would have only AOO'd once.
No.

It is per instance (3.0 used to have 'only once per opponent' rule). If you opponent moves through your threatened space, that's one AoO. If, in the end of the move, he tries to pummel you with a fist without Improved Unarmed Strike, that's an AoO and so on.

It is basically "whenever you do dumb stuff, your dumb ass gets reamed" rule.

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

[Mr Adventurer]

However Roy would have provoked only one AoO because movement only counts as one opportunity, as discussed in this thread.

[Singing Smurf]

Note that even animated shields still cause all pentalties associated with their use, so that an animated Tower Shield still gives a -2 on all attacks, for instance, and you don't dodge the Armour Check Penalty or Arcane Spell Failure chance.

Sure, absolutely. The key things I'm looking for are: (1) Str bonus x 1 1/2 on damage and (2) 1:2 Power Attack ratio. The shield is mainly there to hold enhancements like light/medium/heavy fortification.

(Now that I think about it, can tower shields even be animated?)


-Smurfy

[Mr Adventurer]

(Now that I think about it, can tower shields even be animated?)
Yes. I agree, Animated shields are nice indeed. :)

[Narshal]

Note that even animated shields still cause all penalties associated with their use, so that an animated Tower Shield still gives a -2 on all attacks, for instance, and you don't dodge the Armour Check Penalty or Arcane Spell Failure chance.

True but a spiked chain user that enjoys getting enlarged doesn't care about arcane spell failure nor armor check penalty.

stealth fighters like my halfling rog3/bbn6/shadowdancer2 or my gf's human whirlwind bastard sword fighter/ranger/future shadowdancer are concernmend with armor check penalties. Which is why we go for heavy shield which is only -1 to armor check penalties or get a mithral animated shield.

[Lolth]

However Roy would have provoked only one AoO because movement only counts as one opportunity, as discussed in this thread.
Thou art correct! :) (On the other hand, multiple whacks made a funnier strip.)

[vitus979]

In any case, my primary point was that Vitus was allowing for too much reach for humans with monkey grip...saying a normal sized human with a large spiked chain would be able to reach 20 ft, the same as an Ogre with the same weapon, but that the same human, when enlarged, would reach farther than the Ogre.

Under my reasoning you would because an Enlarged Human with Monkey grip would be wielding a Huge weapon, and the Ogre would be wielding a Large weapon. Is there an official ruling on this issue?

[Mr Adventurer]

Under my reasoning you would because an Enlarged Human with Monkey grip would be wielding a Huge weapon, and the Ogre would be wielding a Large weapon. Is there an official ruling on this issue?Also, reach is a function of the creature, not the weapon (apart from "reach weapon/not reach weapon", obviously). A Large creature (normally) has a reach of 10ft, or 20ft with a reach weapon, regardless of the size of that weapon (within reason). Reach weapons can attack out to double the creature's normal reach, but only some can also attack within the creature's reach.This is how it works.

[Killfalcon]

This is how it works.

I recall a soulknife character that ended up as a large character witha collosal weapon. The weapon itself was approximately 60' long, but the character's reach was still only 10'.

Disclaimer: extreme cases do not a broken system make. Powergaming should only be attempted by professionals. Only you can save the world.

[vitus979]

This is how it works.

Is that from Sage Advice, in Dragon Magazine, an FAQ answer, or some Erratta I haven't seen? You think your way is how it works. When I read the rules for Monkey Grip I thought my way was the way it worked.

I'm not particularly attached to my way of thinking, but your saying 'this is how it works' doesn't particularly sway my opinion, because essentially you're saying a Large Longsword is no longer in length than a Medium Longsword (since by your interperatation in the hands of a Monkey-Gripped human a Large Longsword would still only threaten 5ft).

[Mr Adventurer]

Except that we already know that in D&D weapon length doesn't correspond to Reach, because Small longspears have the same reach as Medium ones.

[vitus979]

Except that we already know that in D&D weapon length doesn't correspond to Reach, because Small longspears have the same reach as Medium ones.

That's because Small Creatures take up the same space as Medium Creatures.


Here's the valid ruling in the 3.5 FAQ and you're right.

How do reach weapons work if they are of a different
size than the creature wielding them? Say, an ogre wielding
a Small or Medium glaive, or a human with the Monkey
Grip feat wielding a Large ranseur? What is the reach for
each situation?

A reach weapon doubles its wielder’s natural reach, but
only if the weapon is at least of an appropriate size for the
wielder. Wielding a “too-small” reach weapon grants no reach.
An ogre (Large) wielding a Medium or smaller reach
weapon gains no reach from the weapon, and could thus attack
foes either 5 feet or 10 feet distant (as normal for a Large
creature wielding a non-reach weapon).

A human (Medium) wielding a Large or larger reach
weapon could attack a creature 10 feet away (but no further),
and could not use the weapon to attack a creature 5 feet away
(as normal for a Medium creature wielding a reach weapon). A
human wielding a Small reach weapon would gain no reach
from the weapon.

The Player’s Handbook isn’t as clear on this as it could be,
although an example of reach in action on page 113 in the
Player’s Handbook provides pretty strong support: “A typical
Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate
size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away . . .”.
While this reference doesn’t mention the ability to
wield a reach weapon larger than the appropriate size,
allowing such a weapon to grant reach to its wielder is a reasonable
extension of the spirit and intent of the rule.

EDIT: upon rereading it, neither of us are right.

[Narshal]

Except that we already know that in D&D weapon length doesn't correspond to Reach, because Small longspears have the same reach as Medium ones.

But not all D&D weapons have the same reach. Most do but not all. The whip has 15 ft reach while the longspear has 10 ft. Both weapon can only hit the last square compared to a spiked chain which can threaten allsquares within it's 10ft reach. I'm talking about medium sized weapons here.

So the statement that reach doubles normal reach doesn't work since we have weapons which have triple the reach of normal weapons.

[Mr Adventurer]

See the FAQ above. Two more things: I don't think the Whip is a good comparison, because it has special rules relating to it's range of attack. Second, "reach" is a term used in the PHB to indicate something specific. Reach weapons are noted as such in their descriptions and the weapons table. The whip is not such a weapon.

[vitus979]

See the FAQ above. Two more things: I don't think the Whip is a good comparison, because it has special rules relating to it's range of attack. Second, "reach" is a term used in the PHB to indicate something specific. Reach weapons are noted as such in their descriptions and the weapons table. The whip is not such a weapon.

I agree, the whip specifically is more like a ranged weapon with a set range of 15ft (or longer for larger sizes).

[Narshal]

See the FAQ above. Two more things: I don't think the Whip is a good comparison, because it has special rules relating to it's range of attack. Second, "reach" is a term used in the PHB to indicate something specific. Reach weapons are noted as such in their descriptions and the weapons table. The whip is not such a weapon.

Whip: A whip deals nonlethal damage. It deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).
Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.
You can make trip attacks with a whip. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the whip to avoid being tripped.
When using a whip, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails).
You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you.
Note: reach has been emphasised by me.

You should check your PHB 3.5 again since Whip is a reach weapon. Whip is also amongst the few reach weapon that can attack any creature within reach. Spiked chain is another reach weapon like that.
Most reach weapons can only attack at 5ft square at the end of their reach. For ex: a 10ft reach weapon can attack 10 ft away but not 5 ft away.

[Narshal]

I agree, the whip specifically is more like a ranged weapon with a set range of 15ft (or longer for larger sizes).

If you look at the weapon table in the PHB, whip has the superscript 4 which if you look at the footnotes it means that it's a reach weapon.

[vitus979]

If you look at the weapon table in the PHB, whip has the superscript 4 which if you look at the footnotes it means that it's a reach weapon.

True enough, but it doesn't threaten an area (by default) and it provokes AoO on use. Sounds more like a ranged weapon than any kind of melee weapon. That is what's always stuck in my head since first reading 3.0.

[Narshal]

True enough, but it doesn't threaten an area (by default) and it provokes AoO on use. Sounds more like a ranged weapon than any kind of melee weapon. That is what's always stuck in my head since first reading 3.0.

But you can use melee weapon feats like power attack, whirlwind attack, improved trip, improved disarm. It might have certain properties that are similar to a ranged weapon (doesn't threathen and provokes an AoO when you hit) but it has more properties similar to a melee weapon.

An unarmed attack provokes an AoO on use and doesn't threaten. Does that make an unarmed attack a ranged weapon?

[Skadedyr]

This is Snow Savant's Gatling Chain Gun Tripper, a fighter build. Snow Savant is one of the more cunning builders of the Character Optimization board. The Chain Tripper was an attempt to make a decent pure fighter build.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=163005

Though it uses feats from a variety of books like most CO board builds, which may not be approved by some DMs.

[Nawara]

As long as y'all are talking about Monkey Grip, why not toss in a Goliath (from Races of Stone) as your race?

Goliath + Monkey Grip + Enlarge Person + Gargantuan Spiked Chain = Fun

:)

-Jeff
(By the way, how much would a Ring of Enlarge Person cost? I don't have my books up here with me.)

[Narshal]

Goliath + Monkey Grip + Enlarge Person + Gargantuan Spiked Chain = Fun

Is Goliath a humanoid type?

(By the way, how much would a Ring of Enlarge Person cost? I don't have my books up here with me.)

A Ring of Enlarge Person that lasts for 1 min. per activation with unlimited activation would be 4000 gp
Basically it costs 4000 gp per min. you wish it lasts and the number of min. is equal to it's caster level.

[LurkingTroll]

Is Goliath a humanoid type?
no.

[Narshal]

no.

Then Enlarge Person can't be used on the Goliath.

[Halloween Jack]

A problem I see when people are comparing "builds" in D&D is that they measure their worth by which character can kick which other character's ass. A rogue isn't the ideal ass-kicking character, but he's more useful than the death machine in a trap-laden dungeon. Even within the field of "combat monster" this premise is flawed. A trip-oriented character can kick the crap out of other characters, but is next to useless against a Colossal creature.

[Caduceus]

but is next to useless against a Colossal creature.

That's an exageration. He's still a fighter, for gosh sakes. They have good BAB, HP and AC.

[Kal Turak]

Here's what you do:

Let the munchkin with the spiked chain kick all the cheesy ass wants for a few levels.

Then...

...Simply make the logical assumption that word of this deadly chain fighter has spread far and wide throughout the territory and that all the intelligent baddies have taken precautions against him. From then on, every group of enemies he fights just happens to stay outside his range and pelt him with missle weapons until he turns tail and runs or dies where he stands. If he still doesn't get the hint and willingly switch to a less-abusive character, throw so many at him at once that he can't even run anymore and he soon won't have a choice.

Munchkin loses.

[OldKentuckyShark]

Here's what you do:

Let the munchkin with the spiked chain kick all the cheesy ass wants for a few levels.

Then...

...Simply make the logical assumption that word of this deadly chain fighter has spread far and wide throughout the territory and that all the intelligent baddies have taken precautions against him. From then on, every group of enemies he fights just happens to stay outside his range and pelt him with missle weapons until he turns tail and runs or dies where he stands. If he still doesn't get the hint and willingly switch to a less-abusive character, throw so many at him at once that he can't even run anymore and he soon won't have a choice.

Munchkin loses.Or you could just tell them no when they ask, and NOT piss them off.

Or you could let them play it, because spiked chain weilders aren't really THAT annoying or powerful.

But if you want to engage in a dick-measuring contest with your players, go right ahead.

[Thomas T]

Here's what you do:

Let the munchkin with the spiked chain kick all the cheesy ass wants for a few levels.

Then...
Wouldn't that have the side effect of hosing every <i>other</i> melee-centric character in the group at the same time?

[Kal Turak]

Wouldn't that have the side effect of hosing every <i>other</i> melee-centric character in the group at the same time?

Nope.

With such a sick, abusive "build", it's pretty obvious that the spiked chain dude is going to have the highest body count in the party as he rises in level. Therefore, he'll quickly come to be seen as the biggest threat. The bad guys will, quite sensibly, focus on taking him down first before moving on to other targets.

Ah, the wages of success.

:)

[Kal Turak]

But if you want to engage in a dick-measuring contest with your players, go right ahead.

It's simply the result of a logical game world in action. Of course the best fighter in the party is going to be known far and wide as the biggest threat to its enemies. What else would they do but adapt to his combination of legendary prowess and extremely predictable battle tactics in a sensible way?

I can't be the only one who likes to play his allegedly sapient NPCs with at least half the common sense God gave a garden slug, can I?

[Flawless Glory of Silence]

The Spiked Chain is fun and flavorful, but hardly power overwhelming. Yeah, it can be strong in the right situations...but I'd expect that of any single schtick that a player has invested that many classes levels and feat choices in. Its special features are of less use against larger creatures, and pretty much entirely so against others (sure, trip that ooze, go for it).

And when it comes down to it, it's a two-handed weapon that just deals 2d4 damage with a 20/x2 crit. Getting damage output and performance over time that compares to just a greatsword or greataxe requires being tricky with it...because that's what it does.

[Wolfwood2]

Nope.

With such a sick, abusive "build", it's pretty obvious that the spiked chain dude is going to have the highest body count in the party as he rises in level. Therefore, he'll quickly come to be seen as the biggest threat. The bad guys will, quite sensibly, focus on taking him down first before moving on to other targets.


Bah, humbug. I'll put my simple barbarian with a greatsword and power attack feat up against this guy any day of the week and kick way more ass.

You can have your trips and your fancy weapon finesse and all that. It ain't going to compare to a sweet 2d6+11 points of pure raging damage.

[Skadedyr]

With such a sick, abusive "build", it's pretty obvious that the spiked chain dude is going to have the highest body count in the party as he rises in level.Not likely. A regular melee character would probably have a higher body count, and as levels go up any tank's body count is going to be pathetic compared to a spellcaster's.

[Katsue]

With such a sick, abusive "build", it's pretty obvious that the spiked chain dude is going to have the highest body count in the party as he rises in level. Therefore, he'll quickly come to be seen as the biggest threat. The bad guys will, quite sensibly, focus on taking him down first before moving on to other targets.

The smart bad guy will cast Dominate Person on him in order to get him to take out the other PCs, which he'd have a pretty good chance of doing. At least, that's what happened to Al Sa'id, and that's pretty much what he did. (And he didn't even have his Guisarme with him at the time). And I wouldn't say Al Sa'id was the best fighter in the party back when we had our Mul Barbarian.

[Epoch]

Nope.

With such a sick, abusive "build", it's pretty obvious that the spiked chain dude is going to have the highest body count in the party as he rises in level.

Not really.

Even if the Spiked Chain build <i>were</i> faultless, which it isn't, it's not a build that concentrates on doing damage quickly -- it's one that concentrates on doing damage safely. A greatsword Barbarian is going to be the guy who takes out the most enemies -- it's just that (if you assume that the chain build was faultless) he'll take a lot more damage/put himself at greater risk while doing so.

I question the assumption that most adventurers do any significant fighting while within view of potential gossips, too.

[Fade]

I question the assumption that most adventurers do any significant fighting while within view of potential gossips, too.
Potential surviving gossips.

[Mr Adventurer]

As long as y'all are talking about Monkey Grip, why not toss in a Goliath (from Races of Stone) as your race?
Because Powerful Build and Monkey Grip Do Not Stack.

[Katsue]

Because Powerful Build and Monkey Grip Do Not Stack.
OTOH, Powerful Build is just plain better than Monkey Grip, and gives you a size bonus to Trip checks that doesn't rely on spells, psychic powers or magic items, and furthermore stacks with your psychic powers, allowing you to get more Size bonus for Tripping than anyone else. (Note that you can't Trip someone if you're 2 size categories larger or smaller than them.)

[Kintara]

Not really.

Even if the Spiked Chain build <i>were</i> faultless, which it isn't, it's not a build that concentrates on doing damage quickly -- it's one that concentrates on doing damage safely. A greatsword Barbarian is going to be the guy who takes out the most enemies -- it's just that (if you assume that the chain build was faultless) he'll take a lot more damage/put himself at greater risk while doing so.Specifically, the point of the build is battlefield control. Keep the enemy on the ground next to the tank, and away from the more fragile party members, and things tend to work out pretty well for the party.

[B Nakagawa]

Is there a diety whose preferred weapon is the spiked chain?

[Katsue]

Is there a diety whose preferred weapon is the spiked chain?
None of the important deities, IIRC. The closest is Hextor's liking for the Flail.

[Calithena]

Sure.

He's Cobain, Lord of Grunge, who wears this spikey leather armor and drinks lattes and has piercings and stuff, like all 3e iconic characters.

So let's see the broken cleric spiked chain build...I'm interested!

[Katsue]

Specifically, the point of the build is battlefield control. Keep the enemy on the ground next to the tank, and away from the more fragile party members, and things tend to work out pretty well for the party.
I had to do this in one Dark Sun module when a Druid was attacked by an infinite horde of zombies, and only three of the players had shown up. During the next session, when it came to fighting a Dragon, it was our Half-Giant Psychic Warrior's incredible Grapple checks and Hostile Empathic Transfer that won the day.

[OldKentuckyShark]

It's simply the result of a logical game world in action. Of course the best fighter in the party is going to be known far and wide as the biggest threat to its enemies. What else would they do but adapt to his combination of legendary prowess and extremely predictable battle tactics in a sensible way?

I can't be the only one who likes to play his allegedly sapient NPCs with at least half the common sense God gave a garden slug, can I?
The spiked chain build is not an incredibly kill-heavy build. Less so than your average cleric, or Evocation-specialized mage.

It's just a build that pisses DM's off. Because it doesn't fit the "style" they want, or because it makes their NPC's look like bumbling chumps. And that's it.

Logical gameworld my ass. I presume that in your world every bad guy employs cleric-monk partner combos to cast silence and grapple the party's spellcasters into submission too?

If you don't like it, recognize the irrationality of your own dislike. If you don't want your players to use it, TELL them that. Don't dump all over one character in an in-game hissy-fit to prove that you're the biggest badass at the table.

[vitus979]

Is there a diety whose preferred weapon is the spiked chain?

Kossuth, the Fire God in Forgotten Realms

a lot of 'slaver' gods tend to have the Spiked Chain as preferred IIRC.

[Captain Nimble!]

The spiked chain build is not an incredibly kill-heavy build. Less so than your average cleric, or Evocation-specialized mage.

It's just a build that pisses DM's off. Because it doesn't fit the "style" they want, or because it makes their NPC's look like bumbling chumps. And that's it.

Logical gameworld my ass. I presume that in your world every bad guy employs cleric-monk partner combos to cast silence and grapple the party's spellcasters into submission too?

If you don't like it, recognize the irrationality of your own dislike. If you don't want your players to use it, TELL them that. Don't dump all over one character in an in-game hissy-fit to prove that you're the biggest badass at the table.

It's a cruddy build because it's got the tendency to start an arms race in a campign - it may not kill very effectively (tho I'd argue that), but it can easily overshadow fighter types who have to close to fight. This leads to frustration, which leads to other players minmaxing to keep up. Seen it happen 3 or 4 times under myself and other GMs. The chumps aren't the NPCs, it's the jerk who doesn't consider others' fun.

But then again, it always is.

[Kintara]

It's a cruddy build because it's got the tendency to start an arms race in a campign - it may not kill very effectively (tho I'd argue that), but it can easily overshadow fighter types who have to close to fight. This leads to frustration, which leads to other players minmaxing to keep up. Seen it happen 3 or 4 times under myself and other GMs. The chumps aren't the NPCs, it's the jerk who doesn't consider others' fun.

But then again, it always is.Well, the trouble with that is that even the best Spiked Chain Fighter isn't nearly as good as a properly made Druid or Wizard, and the Rogue in the group is filling an important niche, as is the Cleric. If they're "arms racing" to be the best melee fighter, then they're running in the wrong race if they're looking for power.

[OldKentuckyShark]

Well, the trouble with that is that even the best Spiked Chain Fighter isn't nearly as good as a properly made Druid or Wizard, and the Rogue in the group is filling an important niche, as is the Cleric. If they're "arms racing" to be the best melee fighter, then they're running in the wrong race if they're looking for power.
Bingo.

The only person a spiked chain fighter overshadows is another fighter (or barbarian, or ranger, or paladin). Certainly not the rogue (who loves the chain for the delicious flanking) or the wizard (who is only amused by a mere 10' radius circle of death.)

And if the group does have two fighters, and one overshadows the other, then... tough nuts? I mean, unless they were going to do identical builds, that was probably going to happen anyway. If one used a greatsword and the other dual-weilded, you'd see the exact same thing.

[wokuma]

Well, the trouble with that is that even the best Spiked Chain Fighter isn't nearly as good as a properly made Druid or Wizard, and the Rogue in the group is filling an important niche, as is the Cleric. If they're "arms racing" to be the best melee fighter, then they're running in the wrong race if they're looking for power.

If you are playing old school where the DM role is to hose you, you have the wrong attitude. In an old school party everybody must min/max or you are not pulling your weight.

[Kintara]

If you are playing old school where the DM role is to hose you, you have the wrong attitude. In an old school party everybody must min/max or you are not pulling your weight.Hmm? I don't disagree, but I'm not sure how it relates to what I said. Were you agreeing with me?

[wokuma]

Hmm? I don't disagree, but I'm not sure how it relates to what I said. Were you agreeing with me?
Yeah, agreeing with you. Sort of. But still a fighter should attempt to pull their weight in the face of druids and the like.

[Ace]

The spiked chain cannot be used as a double weapon.

This is one of those weird DND memes, because nowhere, except in a line from the Master of Chains prestige class, has it EVER been able to be used as a double weapon. And yet this is a very common misunderstanding.


It is also an option for the weapon in 3.0 Oriental adventures IIRC. Its a sidebar rule though

edit -- this is a variant weapon -- a blunt chain that does 1d6 -- not the spiked chain --

[Kintara]

Yeah, agreeing with you. Sort of. But still a fighter should attempt to pull their weight in the face of druids and the like.Heh, if you know D&D well enough, you could take min-maxing to a ridiculous extreme, and a group of Druids and, say, Artificers is only the beginning. ;)

[Narshal]

Is there a diety whose preferred weapon is the spiked chain?

In Greyhawk, there's Tsolorandil, hero-god of wave motions.

[Katsue]

The only person a spiked chain fighter overshadows is another fighter (or barbarian, or ranger, or paladin).
IME, the Barbarian is likely to be the one overshadowing the Spiked Chain Fighter.

[Wakshaani]

IME, the Barbarian is likely to be the one overshadowing the Spiked Chain Fighter.


Oddly enough, the Barbarian *is* the Spiked-Chain Fighter.

He's sproting Exotic Weapon Proficiency, two-weapon style, and power attack. This, mind you, was when I came her eto look for info, since the two-handed *and* twin-weapon at once thing was so dang scary. 25 Strength (Half-Ogre) with a 20' reach, slinging that thing with an attack, an off-hand attack, then a follow-up primary attack, with 6 points of Power Attack, to give him (We thought) 2d6+23 damage primary hand, 2d6+6 off hand, then another primary swing... it was pretty dang spooky.

[Katsue]

Oddly enough, the Barbarian *is* the Spiked-Chain Fighter.

He's sproting Exotic Weapon Proficiency, two-weapon style, and power attack..... to give him (We thought) 2d6+23 damage primary hand, 2d6+6 off hand, then another primary swing... it was pretty dang spooky.
Yeah. Rules violations are often spooky, in one direction or another.

[LurkingTroll]

Oddly enough, the Barbarian *is* the Spiked-Chain Fighter.

He's sproting Exotic Weapon Proficiency, two-weapon style, and power attack. This, mind you, was when I came her eto look for info, since the two-handed *and* twin-weapon at once thing was so dang scary. 25 Strength (Half-Ogre) with a 20' reach, slinging that thing with an attack, an off-hand attack, then a follow-up primary attack, with 6 points of Power Attack, to give him (We thought) 2d6+23 damage primary hand, 2d6+6 off hand, then another primary swing... it was pretty dang spooky.
well...

no. this character is in error to begin with, as there spiked chain isn't a double weapon, for starters.

in addition, the reach is correct, but the damage isn't: the 25 str will give +7 damage bonus, total +10 before power attack, and at 6 pts of power attack on a two handed weapon, that's an additional +12, unless the weapon is a +1 or greater.

in addition, get rid of two-weapon fighting, take monkey grip, and get a chain that does 3d6+10 before power attacking. sure, you're not doing unholy stupid amounts of damage, you're just doing damned scary amounts.

[Crescendo]

I read the majority of this thread but ran out of patience around page 11.
At some point I made a spiked chain fighter build along the same lines, but I'm pretty sure I used a kinda broken feat that seems to have been 'neglected' here.
Knockdown from Sword and Fist says that whenever you deal 10 damage or more to an opponent, you make an automatic trip attempt.
So we're talkin 4th level Human Fighter with EWP: Spiked Chain, Expertise, Improved Trip, Knockdown, Combat Reflexes and Monkey Grip. The Half-Giant racial ability "Powerful Build" lets them count as a large creature for weapon size, and monkey grip ups that another. With any decent strength, he's going to be doing over 10 damage per swing, which immediately results in an extra attack for improved trip, so two attacks for the price of one, + another if they rise that turn from a prone position. With a few more levels and Power Attack/Cleave and a second attack, the number of attacks you can pile on is really silly.

I also tossed around the idea of a Half-Giant version of the build, for a +1 ECL, and the Powerful Build Racial ability, with the Monkey Grip feat. Effectively letting him weild a Spiked Chain sized for a huge character. It was the best way I found to get the size bump without a major ECL hit.

Anyways it's all been said. Just bringing the Knockdown feat to light. Broken as it may be.

[LurkingTroll]

I read the majority of this thread but ran out of patience around page 11.
At some point I made a spiked chain fighter build along the same lines, but I'm pretty sure I used a kinda broken feat that seems to have been 'neglected' here.
Knockdown from Sword and Fist says that whenever you deal 10 damage or more to an opponent, you make an automatic trip attempt.
So we're talkin 4th level Human Fighter with EWP: Spiked Chain, Expertise, Improved Trip, Knockdown, Combat Reflexes and Monkey Grip. The Half-Giant racial ability "Powerful Build" lets them count as a large creature for weapon size, and monkey grip ups that another. With any decent strength, he's going to be doing over 10 damage per swing, which immediately results in an extra attack for improved trip, so two attacks for the price of one, + another if they rise that turn from a prone position. With a few more levels and Power Attack/Cleave and a second attack, the number of attacks you can pile on is really silly.

I also tossed around the idea of a Half-Giant version of the build, for a +1 ECL, and the Powerful Build Racial ability, with the Monkey Grip feat. Effectively letting him weild a Spiked Chain sized for a huge character. It was the best way I found to get the size bump without a major ECL hit.

Anyways it's all been said. Just bringing the Knockdown feat to light. Broken as it may be.
unfortunately, Knockdown is from 3.0, this thread was discussing the 3.5 options. otherwise I've a tack of 3.0 stuff to toss on the barbie.

[austin80112]

I am planning on making a 3.5 spike chain figher, could you guys list out what race, feats and such to take at what levels, please?

[dimensional]

May I suggest you read this thread, It's been a while But i doubt there is no build advice in a 7 page long thread on spiked chains?

That said, My Next suggestion is Create a new thread , most people are not going to read thropugh a seven page 2 year old thread to find your request at the end.

Also include what Books are available for general build advice as for a 3.5 game that is at this point critical info.

Good LUck

Jeremy

[austin80112]

I was goin to use the RPGA books, since I was going to join a living grayhawk campaign... Meh... I know that I should get monkey grip, combat expetise, combat reflexes, dodge, mobility, spring attack, improved trip & Disarm. I think it is 28 point point buy and I would need 13 int, 15 dex and the rest is str, but I wanted to know about CON... would it be helpful? Unfortunately the races of stone races are barred... no golliath for me T_T... only core and a few other races...

Also, what about a 13th or so level half-ogre level favored soul of Kosuth with a wizard cohort? Gargantuan spike chain + Cleric spells might be extremely Uber in the right hands...

[vitus979]

Monkey Grip does not extend your reach and thus is not worth the effort. It's in either the 3.5 FAQ or errata.