Rebuttal from a PDF publisher

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Post originally by The Le Games at 2005-07-07 08:36:37
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Sorry, but that is total crap.

In the PDF industry, I would go broke if I paid .05 per word. It is simply not financially feasable.

If you think I am wrong, then try to start up a pdf business yourself, and give me your numbers to prove me wrong.

Let's throw out some numbers to prove my point.

My upcoming book, 17 Magic Gloves clocks in at 4,263 words. At even $.02 per word we are looking at $85.00 in writer costs alone.

Assume art clocks in at a cheap $50.00. We are therefore looking at $135.00 to produce a 15-page book, which will sell as a PDF on rpgnow for $2.00

I will probably sell 50-100 copies of this book. For the sake of arguement, assume I sell 100 (whihc will take about ayear).

100 x $2.00 = $200.00 in gross sales.

Sounds good, right?

Wrong. If you're selling on Rpgnow.com, which you NEED to since they are the biggest d20 pdf retailer, you are looking at a 30% royalty off the top, which covers their bandwidth, transaction, and all that (which is well worth it).

$60.00 royalty to Rpgnow.com
$85.00 writers fee
$50.00 art + misc
----------
195.00 total

Leaving me with a nice $5.00 profit.

Want to prove me wrong? Start selling a pdf. I will even refer you to one of my freelance writers to make you a 15-page / $2.00 pdf book for you, charging you the rock bottom rate of .02 per word. In 6 months you can tell he how much profit you have made.

I am not talking about the print industry here, where you sell 100 books at $20.00 a pop. I am talking about the PDF industry, where you can charge about $2.00 for a 15 page book. And don't forget the price of artists, which are far far higher than what I just quoted. And don't forget the costs for a layout designer and editor. Oops, and the cost of the software if plan on doing any of this yourself.

I do believe that writers should be paid, but don't be so ignorant to think that small PDF publishers can afford to pay you $.05 per word, because they can't. Sure, there are Green Ronin's and EN Publishing's out there, but I said *small* PDF publishers. You can get $.02-$.05 per word at the big boys, but last time I checked there weren't a whole hell of alot of freelance openings there.

Take what you can get. Keep your integrity. If the price is too low, then don't take the job. Write because you enjoy it. And don't write for free.

But don't be so ignorant to think that you are the next Monty Cook and should be paid $.05 per word, especially not in the PDF industry.

Some jackass once said to me, "If you can't afford to pay writers at least $.02 per word and artists $20.00 per 1/4 page art, then you should not be in this business." I called him a beef witted apple jon and told him to bite me.

My products get good reviews, and I try to treat my aritists and writers with respect. I am upfront about my pay rates, and try to give my freelancers as much exposure as possible. I am making a tidy profit, but nothing to write home about. Every person I have talked to that says "minimum of $.02 per word and $20.00 per 1/4 page art" has been people who has never even tried to publish a PDF book in this industry. So I despise ignorance from people who preach about how pdf publishers should pay, but have never tried to be a pdf publisher.

As The Le Games has become more successful, I have increased my pay rate to freelancers, but make no mistake about it -- I am a small PDF publisher that will NEVER Pay $.05 per word. If you want that amount, go ahead and work for WOTC. I am sure they are more than willing to give you a job right off the bat at those rates. And later I will tell you about the flying reindeer that comes every December.

Go ahead and try to prove me wrong -- start a pdf business and start paying freelances. If your numbers can prove me wrong, I will happy to admit it, and I'll even come work for you at the rates that the author of the above article says you should pay me.

~Le

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Post originally by Aranwyth at 2005-07-07 09:39:39
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So how much do you make compatred to the writer?

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Post originally by Aranwyth at 2005-07-07 09:42:39
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Forget I reread the article and got the answer.

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Post originally by Ash at 2005-07-07 11:55:30
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Whether it's possible to make a profit or not may not be the issue. I personally would be more worried about the ethical treatment of artists and writers. If you can't afford to pay well, why not write the book yourself? If you can't write, learn. If you can't learn and can't afford to pay someone else, do what everyone else does when they can't afford something: go without. And if the writers aren't happy with the payment, let me say this: RPGNow don't charge that much for an account. If you're dead set on PDF RPG publishing, write for yourself, have your own account, find a few artists and DIY it. Honestly, it's not that hard. I can't say I've made tons of money out of it, but I've made more than 1 cent per word that's for certain.

Personally, I wouldn't consider working for less than 2 cents a word, and then only if the subject was one I was really interested in. 5 cents is a fair rate to pay an author, but I would consider going as low as 3 depending on the volume and circumstances. I doubt that 1 cent per word would even work out at minimum wage when you consider the work that goes into a properly written book.

It's all very well the publisher saying 'but there's not enough money in it', you knew that when you started producing RPG PDF's in the first place surely, this is not an industry that nets huge profits unless you're an industry leader like WotC or WW, but really some of the writer's fees I've seen offered recently are nothing less than exploitation. It's about time writers got paid what their effort is worth, not what the industry thinks it can afford and still make a profit.

Ash

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Post originally by Jeb at 2005-07-07 11:58:17
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Really, show me who is paying, and who is able to pay a rate of 5 cents a word.

The realities of the gaming industry are such that a rate of 5 cents a word is difficult to sustain. Also, it is nice how Mr. Brown is more than comfortable having the publisher assume all the risk.

I am happy with the pdf royalties that I earn. They don't cover what I spend on lattes each month, but they will allow me to write off my trip to GenCon SoCal.

Jeb

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Post originally by Ash at 2005-07-07 12:24:48
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Hmm, things might have changed in the meantime, but last time I talked to them, the people who did the support stuff for Traveller (can't remember their name damnit) used to pay 3p a word, which is about 5 cents a word. Mind you it's been a year since then, so things may have changed.

Ash

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Post originally by Lloyd Brown at 2005-07-07 13:24:26
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Thanks for the reply. Let me touch on a couple of points.

<<In the PDF industry, I would go broke if I paid .05 per word. It is simply not financially feasable.>>

The marketability of your product and the feasibility of your business model were not the topic of this article.

<<If you think I am wrong, then try to start up a pdf business yourself, and give me your numbers to prove me wrong.>>

I largely ignored your numbers because I've already looked at pdf figures extensively. I agree with you that it's bad math to pay somebody .05/word for pdf material. Again, your problem is not what I'm discussing in this article.

<<But don't be so ignorant to think that you are the next Monty Cook and should be paid $.05 per word, especially not in the PDF industry. >>

Actually, I'm pretty well-informed, and I'll take the .10/word I've gotten so far (and counting) from my current publisher. Like I've said: name recognition is hard to come by in this industry, even for somebody who has written for Dragon, Shadis, KoDT, Pyramid, Polyhedron, the RPGA, and on two books nominated for Origins Awards. But the money is still there if you know how to find it. That's the point of this article.

<<If you want that amount, go ahead and work for WOTC. I am sure they are more than willing to give you a job right off the bat at those rates. And later I will tell you about the flying reindeer that comes every December. >>

How can you work in this industry and not be familiar with Dragon and Dungeon Magazine? And by "job", I assume you mean contract for freelance work. They pay their staffers a salary, not a word rate (if they did, Matt Forbeck would have broken them when he was there!).

<<If the price is too low, then don't take the job.>>

That would be exactly my point.

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Post originally by Lloyd Brown at 2005-07-07 13:26:56
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I'm working on a resource that includes all publisher rates. I'll share it when it's done. That nickel a word is rare, but not impossible. Unfortunately, it's finite, and it's fairly easy to tap out the market if you're productive.

At that point, you start writing for less.

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Post originally by Achijusan at 2005-07-07 14:26:09
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Thank goodness not ALL writers are quite as elitist and money hungry as you seem to be.

I enjoy PDF gaming products; particularly from smaller publishers; and am able to buy many more products for the 2-4 dollars for a pdf game or supplement than I possibly could for the 20-40 bucks it would cost for printed material (and to line your pockets...)

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Post originally by Strange Visitor at 2005-07-07 14:56:06
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While I think Lloyd is presenting an unrealistic suggestion to the mass of RPG writers (simply because most of them aren't going to get what he's suggesting, period, because the market won't support it) .05 a word is hardly "money hungry". There's people in service jobs who can do better than that while not having to cover their own medical expenses.

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Post originally by Lloyd Brown at 2005-07-07 15:07:50
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<< I enjoy PDF gaming products; particularly from smaller publishers; and am able to buy many more products for the 2-4 dollars for a pdf game or supplement than I possibly could for the 20-40 bucks it would cost for printed material (and to line your pockets...)>>

I'm money hungry because I demand a certain minimum wage for my work? Do you work for 15 cents/hour in the United States because that's all they can afford to pay in third-world countries? I doubt it. You expect a certain wage based on the skills that you have and the market for those skills.

Honestly, tell me how far out of your way you would go to take an 80% pay cut.

That I recognize a market for my skills does not make me elitist.

Folks, compare the gaming industry to the real world: top of the market in gaming: about .09/word, largely unadvertised. Cosmo and Reader's Digest are a dollar a word! Some trade magazines pay up to $1.35 per word--maybe more; that's just the highest I know of.

No, no elitism here.

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Post originally by Ash at 2005-07-07 15:49:27
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I'd love to see this resource when it's finished. Mind you, my ideas are usually too outlandish for mainstream publishers. The curse of being original I guess.

Ash

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Post originally by Ash at 2005-07-07 15:53:26
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I would also like to point out that, while RPGNow charge a 30% royalty for PLATINUM distributers, it is possible to have a quite serviceable account at SILVER or GOLD levels for a smaller royalty, 15% and 25% I think it was, although I can't remember off the top of my head. Must check some time. Sure the Platinum bonuses are all very nice and useful, but they are an option not a necessity.

Ash

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Post originally by Ace at 2005-07-07 15:55:28
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As someone planning to try and sell a few PDF's I can see both POV's here.

Lloyd is correct in stating there are NO intangible benefits in terms of name reognition -- heck I have published stuff from Pyramid, D20 Weekly and the old Autoduel Vehicle Guide -- I don't even get "props" at the FLGS

heck my respect and about $5 US will get me some Starbucks

OTOH there is no way I could afford to pay writers a decent amount for their effort, sales are just too low -- I expect generously to sell 100 units, it is a little optomistic but hey -- The Le did the math already and I agree with him on the results

-- SJ Games (a pretty major player) can manage between "1.5 to 3.5 cents a word to e23 authors" -- from the web page -- they pay decently for the game business

As a writer given the time cost I am not going to write 5000 words for $50 US -- it isnt that much fun
Given the industry limits IMO the best approach is too either do it yourself or do it free

If you DYI a PDF of 5000 words and sell 100 at $5 you will make maybe $200-$300 -- even with the time input for editing at least you will get 2 to 3 cents US a word, roughly what SJ offers

. Also if sales are unusually good --say 300 or more or if you get a print offer your money will go up --

Working cheap OTOH degrades the value of everyones labor and won't benefit you in the long run either

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Post originally by Darrin at 2005-07-07 16:06:43
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Dragon and Pyramid pretty much sets the bar as far as pay rates. Dragon pays about .05/word for print articles, and Pyramid pays .03/word for online articles... or since you can be paid with a credit voucher for double that, .06/word if all you want is SJGames product.

I have no idea what SJGames' rates are for e23/pdf products... I imagine that's up in the air at the moment, since a lot of e23 products are most likely back-burner or out-of-print books where the author may have been paid already.

Writing for sourcebooks rather than magazines is a little different... most freelance work is done "work for hire", where the game company buys the text and all the rights to the work, and they'll either offer a flat rate or a "per word" rate depending on the project. The last work-for-hire I did with Atlas Games, I think I was paid .02/word... but I was happy to do it because 1) the scenario was already written and 2) it was my first actual print product.

In the print world, Sci-Fi/Fantasy fiction magazines have to offer .03 to .05 per word before they're considered "professional". SciFi.com offers a whopping .10/word, which is generally considered the highest among the SciFi mags, but everything they publish is online and they don't publish quite so much material as Analog or Asimov.

PDF publishing is so new, I don't think "standard" prices have been established yet. Compared to what I've been paid for online articles or print sourcebooks... .01/word wouldn't suprise me, and I'd probably consider it reasonable given the current PDF market.

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Post originally by ... at 2005-07-07 18:53:59
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>>Sure the Platinum bonuses are all very nice and useful,
>>but they are an option not a necessity.

It is "Gold" not "Platinum", and yes it is 25% for non Gold, and an additional +5% for gold.

I can say without hesitation that the GOLD membership increases sales significantly. If you want a successful pdf business, then the Gold option is definitely a necessity.

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Post originally by Rob Knop at 2005-07-07 19:06:06
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Don't try to write RPG games for a living.

Yeah, a few people do it already. But they are so few that any given person reading this article is unlikely to be the next one-- and if he is, he may have an inkling of it already.

When you're not writing it for a living, but you're writing it for a hobby, then the economics are completely different. You can write it and not get paid at all; lots of people have all sorts of web page material up that they've put up for free. If you get paid a little, it's a bonus.

I'll give you another example. I've done a lot of community theater. Now, you could just as easily say, don't act for free. You can make yadda yadda even as an extra, etc. etc. Well, if you say don't act for free, and people follow that suggestion, then community theater dies. This is bad not only for the audiences who enjoy it, but for, yes, the actors who enjoy doing the shows, and are happy to do it for the fun and thrill of acting in front of the public.

If the PDF market is generally supported by people who write RPG products on the side, who do it to make a little extra beer money or to help defray the cost of going to a con, great! That's fine. That doesn't even have to undermine the people who manage to scrape out a living writing RPGs professionally for the publishers who can pay $0.05 a word.

There's nothing wrong with sharing the fruits of your hobby for a lot less than the labor value of those fruits, as long as it is your hobby and not your attempt to earn a living. Lots of people do that in lots of areas other than writing RPGs.

-Rob

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Post originally by Chris Farrell at 2005-07-07 21:28:37
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<<I'll give you another example. I've done a lot of community theater.>>

The community theatre example isn't exactly on point. If you act in community theatre, you are likely to be gaining vaulable experience ... you most likely are working with an experienced director, and the experience of acting in front of an audience is valuable. Plus, the admission fees are likely just covering costs - nobody is trying to make money.

Writing for a pittance for a publisher who isn't going anywhere isn't giving you that comparable experience, as Lloyd points out.

If you're going to write serious quantities for peanuts or for free, IMHO you should be doing it on your own website and for your own benefit, reaching out to like-minded fans and developing your own "brand" as it were, or at least working for some better cause than a throwaway PDF for a company with no coherent business plan and no vision.

Chris
http://homepage.mac.com/c_farrell/iblog

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Post originally by DougS at 2005-07-07 22:02:26
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Yes, the community theater analogy isn't exact at all. Community theater productions serve a local audience and don't compete at all with Broadway shows. The RPG market, however, jumbles together because companies don't serve geographically limited audiences, not when you can sell product over the Internet. Everyone who buys a .pdf product might also buy a WotC product, and vice-versa.

I think Lloyd's column and comments are pretty much spot-on. There really isn't much name recognition for RPG writers, except among the hard-cores on RPG.net. And that's partly by design. When I wrote Paths of the Wise for Decipher's LotR RPG line, I asked Owen Seyler if I could get cover credit. Now, Owen was and is a good friend, and if anyone would have done me the favor, he would have. But he cooly told me that it was never to the publisher's advantage to help promote individual writers, since the promotional focus always has to be on the product line as a whole.

As to publishers not being able to pay this rate or that, I freely acknowledge that the economics of RPG publishing are daunting. When publishers say, "We can't afford to pay 5 cents/word" I believe them. But Lloyd is also right to point out that he wasn't addressing the viability of anyone's business plan, simply the effect that all of this has on the hired help.

And as another of my freinds from the late, lamented Decipher RPG once said, "There are 5 cent/word writers, and then there are 2 cent/word writers." His point was that more often than not, you get what you pay for. Not just in terms of writing quality, or design genius, but in terms of basic professionalism. Publishers are entirely within their rights to offer 1 cent/word (or nothing), but they are *highly* unlikely to get an Ed Greenwood, or a Lloyd Brown, or a Ken Hite... or even a Doug Sun for that rate. Given a choice between writing for 2 cents/word and 1 cent/word, what direction makes the most sense for me? Personal friendship with a line developer or company exec is the only consideration that would sway me from taking the higher paying gig.

Lastly, it always gripes my ass whenever RPG freelancers are accused of being greedy because we want to get paid more for what we do. What professional doesn't, after all? And it's not like we're pro athletes grousing because we want $10 million/year and the team is only offering us $8.5 mil. Why is it so hard to understand that we want to maximize our earning power precisely *because* we love what we do, and we want to be able to afford to keep on doing it? Lloyd makes that point, too, although phrasing it a little differently. RPG writing pays so little to begin with that if we didn't love it, we wouldn't be doing it at all. We 'd be writing ad copy and driving much nicer cars.

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Post originally by Dana Jorgensen at 2005-07-07 22:26:38
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Le, allow me to supplement your argument.

I have a project that has been in the works for over a year now. When it is done, it will be in excess of 150,000 words. I had planned to pay $0.04 per word, but that would end up costing over $6,000. The project is an anthology work, with many contributors. No big name to prop it up, just a lot of fine work by some relatively unknown authors.

At that rate, as a PDF, I'd end up needing to sell about 400 copies to break even. While I am one of the more fortunate publishers in that I have several books available that have sold in excess of 300 units, that level of sales is still quite rare for me.

Even at $0.02 per word, my adjusted rate, I'm still looking at the need to sell in excess of 200 copies to make ends meet on the project.

And putting the book into print is a costly proposition as well. Selling 1000 copies at a competitive price, I'd just barely recover enough revenue to pay the costs, with little profit to speak of.

My advice for everyone is to ignore the likes of Lloyd Brown and other authors who do not deal with all aspects of the business. His advice is absolutely worthless until he has successfully run an RPG publication business of his own. His arguments are based on a complete lack of adequate information, regardless how "well informed" he thinks he is.

Second bit of advice. Re-writing five times and charging five times as much is just silly. Writing is NOT something you should be putting effort into. If you have to work hard at it, if you have to rewrite endlessly to produce good work, you shouldn't be writing to begin with. Writing is an artistic talent, just like drawing, painting, or composing music. Either you have it or you don't. Learn to recognize if you have the talent. And if you do not, don't bother trying to force it. Just go do something else.

Lastly, "exposure" and "name recognition" is important, contrary to Lloyd's beliefs. In this industry, where that counts the most is not the author or artist names, but the name of the publisher of a book and the rules system used in a product. SJ Games, Green Ronin, and all the others mentioned in the thread did not start out paying their current rates. They are only able to pay those rates through the recognition of their branding. As PDF publishers manage to gain brand recognition and the general barrier toward PDF purchasing collapses, sales will increase and PDF publishers will pay more. Unfortunately, Lloyd ignored one of the universal truths about ALL business, regardless the type. In the end, the flow of all revenue is based upon what the market will bear.

Personally, I think the entire article was written because Lloyd is unhappy with the fact that he's pretty much still as unknown as an author just starting out and no one is willing to pay him what he feels he's worth. Sorry Lloyd, but a handful of Dragon articles and three Kingdoms of Kalamar books does not make you a recognizable name with selling power on par with the Monte Cooks and Gary Gygaxes of the gaming world.

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Post originally by Jeb at 2005-07-07 22:45:12
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Darrin wrote:
-------------------------------
Dragon and Pyramid pretty much sets the bar as far as pay rates. Dragon pays about .05/word for print articles, and Pyramid pays .03/word for online articles... or since you can be paid with a credit voucher for double that, .06/word if all you want is SJGames product.

. . .

In the print world, Sci-Fi/Fantasy fiction magazines have to offer .03 to .05 per word before they're considered "professional". SciFi.com offers a whopping .10/word, which is generally considered the highest among the SciFi mags, but everything they publish is online and they don't publish quite so much material as Analog or Asimov.
-------------------------------

Which would put 5 cents at the upper range for pay rates.

Jeb

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Post originally by Peter C. Spahn at 2005-07-07 23:18:30
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Second bit of advice. Re-writing five times and charging five times as much is just silly. Writing is NOT something you should be putting effort into. If you have to work hard at it, if you have to rewrite endlessly to produce good work, you shouldn't be writing to begin with. Writing is an artistic talent, just like drawing, painting, or composing music. Either you have it or you don't. Learn to recognize if you have the talent. And if you do not, don't bother trying to force it. Just go do something else.
---------------

While I do feel that Lloyd might not have the best grasp of PDF publishing, as advice goes, that (above) is about the worst advice I've ever seen.

Writing---good writing---_does_ require effort. A lot of it. There is some talent involved, but just like every other talent---art, drawing, music, etc.---if you do not practice, practice, practice at it and hone your skills, your work will read like crap. It's true that some people will never get the hang of writing, but it's also true that no one gets it right on the first pass. Not me, not you, not Stephen King. I've never seen or written a first draft that didn't need to be cleaned up. Learning from your mistakes is vital, which is why rewriting is _good_. And as long as you're producing good work, it doesn't matter how many times you have to rewrite.

Pete

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Post originally by Dana Jorgensen at 2005-07-07 23:42:33
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While I do feel that Lloyd might not have the best grasp of PDF publishing, as advice goes, that (above) is about the worst advice I've ever seen.

Writing---good writing---_does_ require effort. A lot of it. There is some talent involved, but just like every other talent---art, drawing, music, etc.---if you do not practice, practice, practice at it and hone your skills, your work will read like crap. It's true that some people will never get the hang of ....

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++

You misunderstand. The talent comes from truly knowing what you want to express. You're just thinking about the technical aspects. If you do not have that creative spark to breathe life into what you want to express, then no amount of rewriting is going to lead to any significant improvement over the first draft, even if you do end up with perfect spelling and grammar after rewriting it ten times.

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Post originally by Ash at 2005-07-08 04:42:56
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3 cents is still a hell of a lot more than most PDF publishers will pay though. What annoys me is when they veil it by presenting 'competitions', the prize of which is often a copy of the .pdf the writer is working on. Talk about something for nothing.

Ash

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Post originally by Ash at 2005-07-08 04:47:09
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They introduced a Platinum account recently. I'm a Gold vendor myself so I got an offer to join and get the new benefits.

Ash

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Post originally by Ash at 2005-07-08 05:03:18
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I don't know how you calculated your print overheads, but as someone who has worked in the print industry, let me point something out:

The cost of producing a book or any other printed media is very expensive in short runs and you would be unlikely to make your money back. However the cost comes down sharply as you order more copies. This is because most of the cost in the operation goes to pay the press operator, and once a press is set up and running, more copies don't take that much time to produce. It costs more if you have to set and reset the press repeatedly. If you need to sell 1,000 copies to break even, you are either ordering a LOT more than you need, are not charging enough for the product, or are ordering in runs that are too small to be profitable.

Example time:
I recently got a quote for a 300-page book, softback, with page dimensions of 9.5 x 7.25. All inclusive, this would have cost me $5200 or thereabouts, including postage and packing from Canada to the UK, for 1000 copies. That's $5.20 per piece in total. Now the book would probably retail at around $30 - $40 (excuse my rough translations of cash values, I'm from the UK and used to pounds). Let's assume the average at $35 dollars. Let's also add the $6,000 dollars for the writers for a grand total of $11,500 dollars. I'll add a bit, just to make the sums easier, so $12,000 dollars total production costs.

Now we have to take something off the top of profits for the distributors and the stores, so let's knock 40% of the cover price off the profit per piece. $18 profit per book. 12,000 divided by 18 gives a little under 680 copies to be sold to break even. Yes, it's a lot, but it's not 1,000 copies.

Maybe you should think of changing printers? I can recommend Transcontinental Printing, they are very reasonable and professional.

Ash

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Post originally by Dana Jorgensen at 2005-07-08 05:29:16
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I'm guessing you forgot about all the other expenses. Try adding another $5,000 to $8,000 for art, editing and ancilliaries that go with production, which could be anything from electric bills to business lunches to paying for time wasted on with little progress on development and appraisement meetings, telephone bills for conference calls, etc.

Additionally, you're going to be in for a big shock. If you're expecting to see 60% of retail coming back to you, you're never going to sell a book. Of the retail price, 60% goes to distributors, most of which goes to reatilers (retailers end up with 35% to 50% of SRP, depending on which distributor they deal with, how much they order, etc). And thanks to the collapse of the distro tier, a 4th tier has been wedged into the 3-tier system, in the form of a consolidator tier, which can suck up as much as 22% of retail, depending upon which you deal with. And if you aren't dealing with them, then you're direct-marketing to retailers, which can easily consume just as much of the SRP.

You'll be lucky to see half what you're expecting, Ash.

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Post originally by Dana Jorgensen at 2005-07-08 05:33:11
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No, "platinum vendor" is merely a status symbol given to the top 10 vendors. They get a few extras, but there's no way to buy into that particular elitist club.

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Post originally by L.J. Steele at 2005-07-08 05:38:47
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Darrin (---.westgroup.com) wrote:

I have no idea what SJGames' rates are for e23/pdf products... I imagine that's up in the air at the moment, since a lot of e23 products are most likely back-burner or out-of-print books where the author may have been paid already.
-----

GURPS Mysteries, which has sold over 450 copies in less than 3 months,

e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG82-0104

started as a print book contract, so the initial advances were at Jackson's print rates. I suspect that products that are e23 from their inception will have a lower advance.

Royalty for Mysteries is at 15%, which is significantly higher than the 2.5% I get for GURPS Cops

www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/cops/

At this point, Cops continues to sell steadily. Mysteries is selling better than I think anyone expected and the reviews have been quite good. It should earn back its advance by this summer.

As a writer, I prefer print to .pdf, simply because print gets exposed to more readers/buyers. But if you can write well, you can sell well in either market.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Paul King at 2005-07-08 05:51:08
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I have to say that the reply seems to completely miss the intent of the piece - and even the intended audience. It's not about the economics of publishing - it's about the economics of being a writer.

So it's not about what the publisher can afford to pay. It is about what a professional writer needs to earn - and should be looking to earn. You can't argue that Lloyd Brown needs experience as a publisher because it isn't about publishing. It's about writing as a profession and the relevant experience is trying to make a living out of writing. Now, maybe you have experience of making a living out of $0.02 a word. That is experience that would be relevant to the article.

I can ignore the advice because I'm not a professional writer and I'm not trying to be. But for you to say that professionals and would-be professionals should ignore it because you can't afford to pay more - well that just sounds selfish.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by The Le Games at 2005-07-08 06:46:30
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Hmmm..

1000 books, 300 pages
$12,000 total costs (printing + writing)
$12 in costs per book!
$30 retail = $18 profit per book? WOW! THat's GREAT!

Wait, what about Artwork, editors, and layout? And does the retailer make anything?

Hmmm, 1 image per 2 pages = 150 1/4 page images, B+W of course, at the rock bottom rate of $25.00 per image. That comes to $3750.00.

Ooops, and the cover art, which comes to $250.

Ooops, and the editor, which comes to $500.

Ooops, and the Layout designer, which at a rock bottom rate is $35/hour. Assuming a 300 page book takes 15 hours, that's another $525.00 (which I will round down to $500)

Remember, Artists, Editors, and Graphic designers need to live too.

So, what's the new total?
$12,000 (printing + writing)
$4,000 (art)
$500 (editor)
$500 (layout)
-----------

New total: $17,000
Cost per book: $17.00

Retail: $30.00

But wait, the retailer (and distributer) needs to make a profit too, let's say $5.00 per book.
Cost per book: $22.00

you are now $10 per book higher in costs than your original number.

And 150 1/4 page images equals 38 more pages, which is now going to drive up the cost of printing, but lets ignore that for now.

Still, $8 profit per book is still fantastic!

Oh, wait, didn't Lloyd say something about MARKETING and ADVERTISING? Hmmm. Well, no problem, lets assume $2,000 for marketing and advertising (advertisement, travelling to gencon, etc).

total cost: $19,000 ($19.00 per book)
retailer cut: $5.00
cost per book: $24.00

You probably want a lawyer too, to make sure everything is good, so you don't run into the same problem as FFG did when they had to destroy all their books. The d20 laywer I taked too would check the document for $5000 ($100 per hour, about 5 hours he said), but we can keep that out of the equation.

Is it still profitable? Sure, but these numbers are far higher than the ones you quoted. Remember, Artists/editors/graphic designers/distributers/retailers/convention hotels/dragon magazine needs to make a living too.

~The Le Games

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Steve Trustrum at 2005-07-08 06:55:53
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Lloyd Brown Wrote:
>> Folks, compare the gaming industry to the real world: top of the market in gaming: about .09/word, largely unadvertised. Cosmo and Reader's Digest are a dollar a word! Some trade magazines pay up to $1.35 per word--maybe more; that's just the highest I know of.

"compare the gaming industry to the real world"? Honestly, where world do you think the rpg industry exists in?

But if you want to ignore the inherent skewing that arises from cross-industry comparisons, let's play that game.

Del Rey is one of the biggest publishers of fiction one can find. I'm certain they can afford to pay well. Now, by your logic, a small press fiction publisher shouldn't bother if they can't match Del Rey.

Let's look at another industry entirely: Microsoft sets the standard for computer operating systems because it pretty much IS the market for OS. Now, if I want to make a small company that programs dedicated OS for, say, retail unless I can match what Microsoft pays its programmers I'm ripping that person off and/or shouldn't be in business because my company can't afford to have 15,000 millionaire employees.

Now, that all sounds sort of ridiculous, right? You know why? Because what a company can pay is determined by a lot more than what the leaders in the industry pay (not to mention, as you suggest, companies in other industries pay.)

Sorry, but you are a writer who has made a lot of assumptions about aspects of the gaming industry that exist well above your involvement in it. Oh, I know ... you said you're "well informed," which is great and all, but it doesn't change that you've mistakenly spoken about a tier of the industry you've not been directly exposed to.

While I agree that your article has some merit, such as it generally being safer for the new writer to avoid the "work for free! It's all about exposure!" pitches that float around, many of the assumptions you make beyond this level of advice are irresponsibly misinformed and operate under the assumption that the rpg industry (be it the print or PDF aspects) is entirely operating on a level playing field.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Rob Knop at 2005-07-08 06:58:55
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The community theatre example isn't exactly on point. If you act in community theatre, you are likely to be gaining vaulable experience ... you most likely are working with an experienced director, and the experience of acting in front of an audience is valuable.

You all sound so mercenary.

In my experience, yeah, some of the people in community theater what to Go Places. However, the vast majority of actors in shows are doing it because they love it and enjoy it, but have no plans or illusions that they are going to make a living at acting. Most of the best top actors and directors in community theater have "day" jobs that they have no intention of giving up.

So the comparison is valid to the point I was trying to make. You don't need to be paid living wages to be doing your hobby. Even if the community you make your name in has minimal or no overlap with the professional community, if it's valuable to you, it's still valuable.

-Rob

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Rob Knop at 2005-07-08 07:06:07
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Yes, the community theater analogy isn't exact at all. Community theater productions serve a local audience and don't compete at all with Broadway shows. The RPG market, however, jumbles together because companies don't serve geographically limited audiences, not when you can sell product over the Internet. Everyone who buys a .pdf product might also buy a WotC product, and vice-versa.

...and people who go to community theaters can and do go to professional theater productions. (I did community theater in the Bay Area, and believe me, Broadway shows and other professional theater comes through San Francisco!)

What's more, they can go to movies... and indeed, community theater struggles sometimes because the price of a ticket to a community theater show is usually comparable or slightly more than the price of a ticket to a movie, necessary to cover costs-- and movies are professionally produced with much larger budgets.

But, no, I don't claim the analogy is perfect. But there IS something to it. And even if it's not, my argument stands anyway. The competition with the "big boys" and the fact that the same customers might buy both isn't any more relevant to what I am saying than, as Lloyd says, the business plan of PDF publishers is relevant to what he is saying. My point is that there are a lot of people doing this as a hobby, not as a living, and lots of people in lots of hobbies enjoy doing and even putting out for public consumption the products of their hobby without making a living wage at it. And if they are conscious that that's what they're doing, there's nothing wrong with it.

No more than there's anything wrong with the professional RPG writers asking to be paid enough to at least scrape out a barely passable living at it.

-Rob

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Steve Trustrum at 2005-07-08 07:08:31
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DougS said:
>>Lastly, it always gripes my ass whenever RPG freelancers are accused of being greedy because we want to get paid more for what we do. What professional doesn't, after all?

You're absolutely right: there's nothing wrong with trying to get the best rate you can. If a writer has the chance to work on two projects of equal work, for instance, where one is offered at higher pay they'd have to have a reason beyond economics (doing a favor or the like, enjoying the other project's concept more, etc.) to pass on the higher pay. Loving what you do and wanting to get the most for doing it aren't mutually exclusive.

I think the part where so many people take issue with the article in this regard is that it speaks in terms of absolutes and near-absolutes. If I were a fresh freelancer reading that article I'd likely think "wow, that thing is spot on! Rock on, brother writers! Solidarity in our fight against the man!" but, having been around for a while, I recognize that this industry simply doesn't work under the model he suggests exists. I've learned the value of accepting lower pay if it means getting involved with a project I believe in or will be fun to work on. I know when it's time to work on a project that pays more but doesn't seem to have any soul to it. So, while I agree that it's grand to get the most you can for your work, the article ignores one key point: just about anyone who gets into the industry for the sake of money -- with no other reason to keep them here -- is going to be sorely disappointed and shouldn't bother to begin with.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Cid at 2005-07-08 07:13:37
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Hi Thele

Not wanting to disagree with your figures here, and I swore I wouldn't get into this but, you are making way to much profit there. I did a few checks with my partner (games shop owner) and our local distributors and the math works a little like this.

Retailer is going to expect a 35% gross margin on products they sell (30% if they are generous, and less if its a Hasbro or GW product).

Distributor is going to expect a 25% gross margin on their slice so following the maths through:

1000 x copies at $30 each = $30,000

Retailers takes a 35% margin on that = $10,500 leaving $19,500

Distributor takes a 25% margin on $19,500 = $4,875 leaving $14,625

So with you costs (all in) of $19,500 you would lose $4,875

However $30 RRP for a 300 page source book seems a little cheap, $30 equates roughly to £15 Sterling, and a typical book of that size would generally go for £20 - £25 or $40 to $50.

So pluging $50 into the equation gives you a whopping great profit of $4,875

Bigger print runs with the lower cost associated with it will of course up your profit Margin.

Anyway, just my two pennies worth :-)

John Milner
UKG Publishing

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by The Le Games at 2005-07-08 07:48:11
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>>you are making way to much profit there.

Thanks for the numbers, Cid.

Wow. Distributers and Retailers really take that much? I am clearly in the wrong business. That's just a huge percentage... wow...

In anycase, it sounds like a $50 book would definitely bring in a good sum. but unless you are are Monty Cook, Wotc, or GW, I think it would be pretty bloody difficult to move 1000 books at $50 a pop.

wow, those are some huge percentages..

~Le

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Steve Trustrum at 2005-07-08 07:55:34
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Paul King said:
>> I have to say that the reply seems to completely miss the intent of the piece - and even the intended audience. It's not about the economics of publishing - it's about the economics of being a writer.

So, you think that economics of publishing have nothing to do with the economics of writing? How much a writer will earn from a project affects that project's budget. The two are intrinsically related, so much so that one cannot talk about a writer's wages without considering why the publisher can only offer a small rate or can afford to pay higher than the industry norm.

Paul King wrote:
>>It's about writing as a profession and the relevant experience is trying to make a living out of writing. Now, maybe you have experience of making a living out of $0.02 a word. That is experience that would be relevant to the article.

Actually, it's about making a living out of writing in the role-playing game industry. That last bit is a very important point to miss. Comparatively very few people in this industry earn enough from it to support themselves, let alone support themselves by being writers. Yes, it can be done, but no the article doesn't explain how these people manage it. One can be a very well known writer and not ear a living from the industry. In fact, let's look at one of the examples from the article: Ed Greenwood. Ed is one of the most recognizable names in the industry and I'm certain there are a lot of companies that would love to add Ed's name to their product lines. Do you know how Ed earns a living? He's a librarian. Now, look at what some people consider to be some of the better publishers out there; most tend to have one or two full-time staff on hand (if that) -- there are a number of publishers that people from the outside looking in consider to be industry leaders not knowing those publishers still need to supplement their incomes with other jobs.

The simple fact of the matter is that if you come to the rpg industry expecting to earn a living from it, you'd be better off spending your time looking for work elsewhere. Another rather unavoidable fact is that if you think that a publisher's need to have another job to keep his publishing job afloat has nothing to do with a writer's economics, you're kidding yourself.

Paul King said:
>> I can ignore the advice because I'm not a professional writer and I'm not trying to be. But for you to say that professionals and would-be professionals should ignore it because you can't afford to pay more - well that just sounds selfish.

Another correction here. It would indeed be very selfish if the publisher were saying it and it wasn't true. Yeah, it's selfish for a publisher to underpay if they can afford to do better and still turn a profit for themselves that allows them to keep publishing, but it isn't selfish if the publisher says they can't afford to pay more and it's true. That's an unavoidable matter of economics.

Let me explain something that you and many others seem to miss: a publisher's profits aren't all going into his pocket. People seem to be under the impression that if someone clears even $50 from a project then he's golden, because he came out ahead. Wrong. While $50 wouldn't be enough to make the hassle of publishing worth it, that $50 certainly isn't enough to fund another project -- it won't even fund most PDF projects. Publishers don't just look at their profits as money in their pocket but also as the cash they need to reinvest into their business to ensure they can keep publishing. So, in effect, their profits are split in (at least) two different directions, whereas everything a writer earns goes right into the ol' wallet. Now consider this: if all those selfish publishers refuse to see the economic truths of running their business and go bankrupt, rendering them unable to publish anymore, just where do you think the writers are going to get work from?

The truth is that the relationship between the publisher and the writer is one of necessity that runs in both directions and both parties have to acknowledge that the other party has needs and standards that the other may not necessarily see or understand. If neither party can accept that and only sees any opinion different than their own as "selfish", well, there's going to be a hell of a lot of nothing getting done in this industry.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Cid at 2005-07-08 08:26:45
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The Le Games wrote:
-------------------------------
>>you are making way to much profit there.

Thanks for the numbers, Cid.

Wow. Distributers and Retailers really take that much? I am clearly in the wrong business. That's just a huge percentage... wow...

In anycase, it sounds like a $50 book would definitely bring in a good sum. but unless you are are Monty Cook, Wotc, or GW, I think it would be pretty bloody difficult to move 1000 books at $50 a pop.

wow, those are some huge percentages..

~Le

Hi ~Le

The problem comes from looking at the process from the RRP, as a publisher when we started selling our pdf's via CD Media we set a price we required per disk to turn a reasonable profit. With that in mind that is the price the distributor would pay, they in turn would mark up by x% and sell to the retailers who would markup by y%. Using these figures we worked out what the RRP should be given a reasonable slice of the cake for all concerned.

Additionally, until recently we have not used freelancers so that cut our slice a little bigger :-)

A good example of the markup a retailer gets is MtG, a box typically costs the retailer between £52 and £60 (around $104 - $120), and is if sold at SRP will sell for £90 ($180). Added to this that WotC come down hard on people who sell for less than SRP (but not price fixing, honest), the retailer is getting roughly 30% margin.

The best way we can compete in this market is to cut out the distributors, but that in itself is a can of worms.

Cid

UKG Publishing

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Steve Trustrum at 2005-07-08 09:06:04
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Ash said:
>> What annoys me is when they veil it by presenting 'competitions', the prize of which is often a copy of the .pdf the writer is working on. Talk about something for nothing.

Ash, that is without a doubt a lot of bull. It is not at all common for a PDF publisher to say "hey, I'm holding this contest where the winner gets to write the PDF!" If you've seen such an offer around, by all means, please point it out to me. Speaking for myself, I can't recall a single product or open call for a project where the sole foundation for its contest was a contest and, if you can indeed point me in that direction, such an instance would be so rare as to make your generalization irresponsibly misleading.

Such contest, when held by PDF publishers or by offset publishers, hold a contest to have the winner included amongst other, existing material. They are not writing the whole thing, nor even the bulk of it. Such contests are not viewed as a way to save money but rather as a marketing tool to get people to take notice of and anticipate the product.

For example, I am currently writing a PDF that I'll be publishing. As part of this I've offered a contest for people to submit creatures that will appear in this PDF alongside what I've written. The winner gets their entry in the PDF and a free copy, while the two runners up get a free copy. Now, considering I've already written the other 50 pages of this PDF, I fail to see how having this contest is me trying to rip someone off when I could have easily, and with less hassle in fact, just not bothered looking for an outside addition. So, why did I do it? Because it created a buzz about the product -- it got people asking me questions and generated talk and expectations amongst consumers.

I've also participated as a contestent for others despite being a paid freelancer at the time because, despite not being paid, i recognized that winning something for the company in question would get my name splashed around. point of fact, I took second in this contest and it led to me getting a paying gig in the very book the contest winner's material appeared in. So, while I didn't win the contest, I actually had more material in that book than the winner did and I ended up getting paid for it, on top of having my name splashed around as the runner up -- that hardly turned out to be "something for nothing," as you put it.

So, you are either entirely misrepresenting publishers who have such contests or your misrepresenting the commonality of actual scams where people try to get their entire or majority product written under the guise of a contest. Either way, perhaps you should just acknowledge that your perception of certain matters may not represent the whole story or the truth of the situation and leave it at that.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Steve Trustrum at 2005-07-08 09:08:00
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err, should be "where the sole foundation for its CONTENT was a contest"

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Lloyd Brown at 2005-07-08 09:14:56
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<<Del Rey is one of the biggest publishers of fiction one can find. I'm certain they can afford to pay well. Now, by your logic, a small press fiction publisher shouldn't bother if they can't match Del Rey. >>

That's the great thing about the book trade--which is part of what I meant by "real world*" in this context--they pay in royalties figured as a percent of gross, not net. 10% of 50,000 Del Rey books (assuming identical cover price) is the same as 10% of 50,000 Joe Book Publisher books.

<<that you've mistakenly spoken about a tier of the industry you've not been directly exposed to.>>

Which tier are you assuming that would be?

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Paul King at 2005-07-08 09:15:54
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Let's put this simply:

What I was calling selfishness was a publisher expecting writers to accept what he can afford to pay BECAUSE it was what he could afford to pay. Surely that's the publisher seeing only his side ?

As for the rest I'm familiar with most of it. I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to expect to make a good living out of the RPG industry, and "don't give up your day job" would be the first piece of advice I would give to anyone wanting to try.

But the writers have as much right as anyone else to do their best to try, and professional writers shouldn't be expected to accept low rates just to subsidise projects that are not otherwise economically viable.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Lloyd Brown at 2005-07-08 09:37:19
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I'm going to cut in almost at random here in the middle of the distributor/retailer price discussion. Not because it affects my argument at all, but because some people are touting some misinformation, however well-intentioned it might be.

Retailers expect at least 40% and the standard discount for small-press RPGs from distribution is 47-50%, depending on your distributor. My cost for a $29.99 book is $15.90. If we buy direct, we want at least 50% off and will mark up a product that falls short of that, although we don't usually mind if you have an order minimum of $100 to $200, depending on the size of the product line.

Distributors were paying 40% of the retail price (not 40 OFF), but they have been losing margins. 42% of retail is more common than it used to be. Figure on the round number of 40 and you should be okay, though.

On rare occasions, a retailer will accept under 40% if he feels a) certain of 100% sell-through, or b) he can make it up above SRP without a detrimental decrease in sales velocity (in which case his margin raise above 40%).

COGs at my store is now 50% overall, with a controlled increase in inventory level over the past six months.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Lloyd Brown at 2005-07-08 09:44:22
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Thanks for the responses so far, everybody. Even the people that disagree. I have no problem with professional discussion as long as people stay polite. I'm glad that's going on here.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Steve Trustrum at 2005-07-08 10:07:51
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Paul King said:
>> Let's put this simply:

>> What I was calling selfishness was a publisher expecting writers to accept what he can afford to pay BECAUSE it was what he could afford to pay. Surely that's the publisher seeing only his side ?

No, it's not. It's a publisher realizing what he is able to pay if he wants to a) get that particular product to the market, b) make money to fund future products, and c) make anything for him/herself to make their own time investment worth it. When discussions such as this pop up, people only tend to see c) and forget that a) and b) are incredibly important. Taking a realistic view of one's economics and still possessing a desire to publish is in no way selfish -- there's no self-interested money grabbing going on, but rather trying to do the best one can with what little one has. Now, if the publisher then says "screw all you writers who won't work for what I'm offering!" then yeah, I don't think he's realizing that what he is offering might not appeal to everyone, even if that's the best he can do. That's still not selfish, though, just unrealistic.

To expand on this, consider me as a case sample: I am both a freelancer and a small press publisher. As a writer I've worked for low paying jobs, for various reasons, and as a publisher I've offered low paying jobs because of my company's current finances. Would I like to pay more? Absolutely. Working both sides of the tracks, I think someone would find it hard to argue that I am only seeing things from the publisher's perspective. The perspective I'm seing it from is reality of what I can afford to pay before it gets so bad that my projects never leave the red. However, part of that perspective is me also realizing that if my company picks up speed I'll also increase my rates to reflect that the company can afford to do so. Until then, however, reality dictates what I pay not my personal preferences.

Paul King said:
>> But the writers have as much right as anyone else to do their best to try, and professional writers shouldn't be expected to accept low rates just to subsidise projects that are not otherwise economically viable.

A writer ALWAYS has the right to turn down a job. Nobody has ever held a gun to a writer's head and said "work on this or take a bullet!" You don't like the rate? Walk away. No publisher ever takes on a writer expecting that writer to work for less than what is acceptable to them -- obviously, merely taking on the job mean's they accept the rate, for whatever reason. This is why discussions such as this which proclaim tangible rate thresholds are entirely off base because they forget the human factor.

To illustrate what I mean, while you'll likely find most writers think the be all and end all of a writer's perspective is defined in your previous paragraph, let's flip what you said for a second and see if you can look at it as publishers are forced to:

"But the publishers have as much right as anyone else to do their best to try, and professional publishers shouldn't be expected to pay high rates just to subsidise a writer's livelihood for projects that are not otherwise economically viable."

Do you see what I mean? Even the coin you present has another side to it, but that's often overlooked in discussions such as this. Most rpg companies are not faceless corporations with layers of bureaucracy to hide behind. Most are one or two core people who want to make products, and have fun doing so, while hopefully scratching some income out of it. They aren't looking to screw other people over, but they're not looking to be bankrupted, either. Uncoincidentally, this sounds a lot like the desires and goals of most rpg writers I know.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by The Le Games at 2005-07-08 10:08:10
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>>Thanks for the responses so far, everybody. Even the people
>>that disagree. I have no problem with professional discussion
>>as long as people stay polite. I'm glad that's going on here.

And thank you for bringing up an interesting topic. It is especially going well because everyone is managing to keep it civil.

I do believe in the heart of your message though -- don't work for free for just exposure. While sometimes it could work, especially a well known company like Wotc, you have to ask yourself "why is such a profitable company asking for free stuff?"

Know your worth, and know what the market can handle. I know writers who do very well freelancing, and others who are struggling. Even if you have to barter for some free books from the publisher or something, you almost never have to walk away empty handed.

I have had solicitations from writers who are willing to work for free, and I always tell them "I will still pay you," because they *should* be paid. When I pay less, I offer a few free copies of my existing pdfs as compenstaion, and once in a while offer royalties.

I have heard many horror stories of freelancers not getting paid, or working for free on a project only to have all communication cut off from the source because the publishers are idiots.

If you want to work for free for "exposure", fine. Just make sure you are comfortable with that.

And for those of you getting paid, for God's sake get a contract. Or if you can't get one of those, for God's sake SAVE ALL YOUR EMAILS. Even the big boys screw over their freelancers (I will not mention names) (yes I will, Otherworld Creations and Palladium).

Be careful freelancers. Know your worth, but know the market too.

~The Le Games

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by The Le Games at 2005-07-08 10:12:27
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>>A writer ALWAYS has the right to turn down a job.
>>Nobody has ever held a gun to a writer's head and said "work on
>>this or take a bullet!" You don't like the rate? Walk away.
>>No publisher ever takes on a writer expecting that writer to
>>work for less than what is acceptable to them

This is very, very true. I had a freelancer work on a book for me last year for a good rate (for me). When I offered him the same rate for a second book, he turned it down saying that he cannot work at that rate anymore. I thanked him and wished him well.

He knew that I could not offer more, and I knew that I was losing out on a good freelancer because I could not offer more.

But that is okey. I found other aspiring freelancers at that rate (that turned out to be very good), and he moved on to bigger, better, and higher paying gigs. Win-Win for all.

I still talk to him from time to time.

Remember, ther is always a choice.

~The Le Games

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Steve Trustrum at 2005-07-08 10:14:09
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Lloyd Brown said:
>> That's the great thing about the book trade--which is part of what I meant by "real world*" in this context--they pay in royalties figured as a percent of gross, not net. 10% of 50,000 Del Rey books (assuming identical cover price) is the same as 10% of 50,000 Joe Book Publisher books.

The fiction book trade is certainly not the rpg industry, however. If the rpg industry had that kind of market we'd be having this discussion under an entirely different context. However, the two are like comparing the destructive force of artillery and deringers.

Lloyd Brown said:
>> Which tier are you assuming that would be?

From your comments on writer/publisher interaction, you're obviously not a publisher. If, on the remote chance that you are, you'd have to be bi-polar or bankrupt to make some of the assumptions seen in this article and your responses. They certainly don't fit the reality I've seen as both a freelancer and small press publisher, or discussed with others in both positions who have far more experience in both realms than I.

To be frank, your article assumes that a publisher's operational budgets and business model are just smoke blowing on the wind, waiting to swoop down and choke the poor, hapless writer who doesn't know he's about to get screwed.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Cid at 2005-07-08 10:15:18
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Lloyd Brown wrote:
-------------------------------
....
Retailers expect at least 40% and the standard discount for small-press RPGs from distribution is 47-50%, depending on your distributor. My cost for a $29.99 book is $15.90. If we buy direct, we want at least 50% off and will mark up a product that falls short of that, although we don't usually mind if you have an order minimum of $100 to $200, depending on the size of the product line.

On rare occasions, a retailer will accept under 40% if he feels a) certain of 100% sell-through, or b) he can make it up above SRP without a d....

All I can say is I wish we had your suppliers in the UK. 40% is a good discount, more typically is 30-35% and then we have to muck around with TAX on that.

Cid

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Paul King at 2005-07-08 11:26:49
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Again you seem to be misunderstanding what I am saying completely.

I am NOT disputing the right of publishers to make a decent profit

I am NOT arguing that publishers are wrong to offer the rates thay can afford.

If you go back to the post I replied to it was a publisher arguing against the article on the grounds that he could not afford to pay the suggested rates. Well if the pro writers take the advice of the article (and are able to find work at the suggested rates) then he won't be able to afford pro writers. Is that a good reason for pro writers to ignore the article ?

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Dana Jorgensen at 2005-07-08 11:44:57
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Rob Knop wrote:
-------------------------------
Yes, the community theater analogy isn't exact at all. Community theater productions serve a local audience and don't compete at all with Broadway shows. The RPG market, however, jumbles together because companies don't serve geographically limited audiences, not when you can sell product over the Internet. Everyone who buys a .pdf product might also buy a WotC product, and vice-versa.

...and people who go to community theaters can and do go to professional theater productions. (I did community theater in the Bay Area, and believe me, Broadway shows and other professional theater comes through San Francisco!)

What's more, they can go to movies... and indeed, community theater struggles sometimes because the price of a ticket to a community theater show is usually comparable or slightly more than the price of a ticket to a movie, necessary to cover costs-- and movies are professionally produced with much larger budgets.

But, no, I don't claim the analogy is per....

--------------------------------------

Allow me to boost the comparison by pointing out there are a number of professional entertainers who have started new community theater troupes or regularly perform with existing ones.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Steve Trustrum at 2005-07-08 13:01:55
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Paul King said:
>> Again you seem to be misunderstanding what I am saying completely.

No, I'm not misunderstanding you at all. What I am saying is that such a stance on the part of the writers is ignoring the reality of the situation. Let me put another spin on it for you: if there were indeed enough companies out there who could afford what the article suggests, we wouldn't need to have this discussion; the publishers who were offering the "selfish," low rates would have gone out of business for lack of anyone able to supply their talent needs. Most companies in this industry, however, cannot afford that -- at least not often and/or for all their product lines.

Your point against the publisher doesn't not exist in a vacuum outside of what the article's author suggested throughout. It exists in a context beyond this, that and the other hypothetical "what if?" that works in the writer's favor. The article assumes all things are equal in the industry. They most certainly are not.

Something else the article incorrectly glosses over is: all the while that writer is hunting for the much rarer, elusive job that pays higher, he isn't working. He's not building his credentials. He's not proving he can get the job done. Now, despite some people saying that a name means nothing and that one's past work means squat, that just isn't so. It may not mean anything to the typical CONSUMER who is more interested in content over "star appeal", but past evidence of good work and the ablity to hit deadlines sure does help when trying to sell oneself to a publisher. Of course, none of that is going on while the newbie scours for the higher paying jobs that the expeirenced authors also have their sites set on. So, when Mr. Newbie finally goes after that $0.05/word job he'd better hope his ideas are so amazing that they'll beat out the lads and lasses also competing for it but who have also proven they are skilled in their craft by the virtue of what they've already done.

Now, whether or not you see the relevance of all this to your point, take my word for it that it is indeed relevant. It's one of those many considerations outside of the article's sole focus on $$ that Lloyd seems to have forgotten about.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Peter C. Spahn at 2005-07-08 13:02:43
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You misunderstand. The talent comes from truly knowing what you want to express. You're just thinking about the technical aspects. If you do not have that creative spark to breathe life into what you want to express, then no amount of rewriting is going to lead to any significant improvement over the first draft, even if you do end up with perfect spelling and grammar after rewriting it ten times.
______________________________

Actually, I've found that most people can generate the germ of a good idea. Everyone seems to have at least one good story they can tell. The technical aspects are what they lack, and those come with practice and rewriting.

In any case, the rest of this thread seems to have turned into more of a publishing discussion. I just wanted to point out to any fledgling writers out there that rewriting is part of the process, so don't get discouraged if your story, or first dozen stories fall flat/get rejected/get negative feedback. Keep writing, but more importantly, learn from your mistakes, and you can't help but get better.

Pete

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Lloyd Brown at 2005-07-08 13:12:06
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<<waiting to swoop down and choke the poor, hapless writer who doesn't know he's about to get screwed.>>

Once more, the subject of my article was not a publisher's ability or inability to pay. The topic was about which jobs a writer should seek out and which jobs to decline. A Mercedes Smart Car might be fine for some people, but I don't feel the need to own one. Nor am I insulting Mercedes by saying "Thanks, but no thanks."

<<From your comments on writer/publisher interaction, you're obviously not a publisher. If, on the remote chance that you are, you'd have to be bi-polar or bankrupt to make some of the assumptions seen in this article and your responses.>>

Since there clearly ARE publisher who pay the rates that I'm talking about, assuming that a publisher that offers that rate is bankrupt or bi-polar doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Wizards of the Coast certainly isn't bankrupt (and let's don't go there on that other issue, folks!)

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Lloyd Brown at 2005-07-08 13:21:43
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<<Remember, ther is always a choice. >>

See, I knew we'd agree.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Paul King at 2005-07-08 13:49:28
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Obviously you DON'T understand my point because you are still claiming that I view the low rates as "selfish".

That is NOT what I said. What I view as selfish is the suggestion that pro writers should ignore the advice of the article and accept low rates because that is all that publisher can afford. Just how often do I have to repeat this ?

Whether one publisher - or indeed the whole .pdf sector - can support the suggested rates is not the same as saying that the whole industry (such as it is) cannot. Nor am I criticising the latter argument (which I am not in a position to evaluate). I am however rejecting the former as a valid argument for pro writers to accept low rates.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Lloyd Brown at 2005-07-08 14:11:52
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I'm leaving it alone for now, but the concept of exposure will come up in the next article.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by RJ Grady at 2005-07-08 15:59:12
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"The marketability of your product and the feasibility of your business model were not the topic of this article. "

Oh, but it is. For writers, that is.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Steven Trustrum at 2005-07-08 17:26:08
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Paul King said:
>> Obviously you DON'T understand my point because you are still claiming that I view the low rates as "selfish".

Actually, that's not what I'm saying at all. I repeatedly qualified that through contexts and the like. What I'm saying is that you're missing the point that rates -- regardless of your perception of them -- don't exist on their own, for good or bad, and that viewing them as such, for good or bad, isn't a realistic perception of the industry and how publishers and writers need to interact if both are to survive.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Josh Raynack at 2005-07-08 17:30:43
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In the real world, that of real publishers (not RPG) - .05 a word is good and usually a starting price for new writers - and 10% to 15% royalties to new writers for a book deal (and this is usually unsolicited material; i.e. the writer doesn't have an agent). Now, it would be hard for Alea Publishing Group to pay .05 a word, but we would if a)the name carried merit in the RPG Industry (and I am not talking about the big dogs - there are a lot of little dogs out there and b) if we new we could get a profit (we pay a 25% at RPGNow, 30% to 35% at other sites - so it is that much).

We do however, pay around 15% to 25% commission (which by the way is not translated as free - if your work is good and innovative (something more than new feats and prestige clasess) it will sell and for a decent price. It is true that sales for .pdfs are not that great, but we at Alea Publishing Group are working toward a goal. But for an unsolicited manuscript, by an unknown writer - .01 a word is not great but is feasible (especially since we put nearly three times the amount of time editing, doing artwork, page layout, promotion, and such - not making a dime - all of us put whatever profits we make back into the company).

Another thing someone doesn't understand is that it costs money to buy the programs that layout the product (we use Adobe Pro 7.0, Fireworks 2004, and Microsoft Publisher). Add up the total and see what it amounts too.

But I do say that, as an artist and writer myself, if you want to make money in the RPG business - you can't. It is better to write stories for real world magazines (even $50 for a page in Dragon isn't really worth it when you talk about writer for bigger magazines). I made nearly $500 or more a month selling my art (fine art) outside a pizza joint for one night - that is where the money is at. I am not saying that it is impossible to make it in the RPG biz but it is tough. I remember one qoute from a TSR staff member to someone wanting to work for them (and it wasn't me) - they said that more people work for NASA then work for TSR.

Anyway take what you will. As The Le said "Don't write for free" but enjoy what you do - find that medium and there is a place in the RPG biz for everyone.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Steven Trustrum at 2005-07-08 18:22:16
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Lloyd Brown said:
>> Once more, the subject of my article was not a publisher's ability or inability to pay. The topic was about which jobs a writer should seek out and which jobs to decline. A Mercedes Smart Car might be fine for some people, but I don't feel the need to own one. Nor am I insulting Mercedes by saying "Thanks, but no thanks."

Who said anything about an inability to pay? Not I. You're implying a rate lower than the standard your article sets = "screwed." A writer who merely looks at rates when deciding upon jobs is going to find themselves out of work much of their time.

Lloyd Brown said:
>> Since there clearly ARE publisher who pay the rates that I'm talking about, assuming that a publisher that offers that rate is bankrupt or bi-polar doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Wizards of the Coast certainly isn't bankrupt (and let's don't go there on that other issue, folks!

Are those publishers typical of the industry? Are the jobs they're offering proliferate? Are they open to newbies or do they go first to the publisher's preferred freelancers? Are they offered in a public search or are they farmed mainly or solely through contacts?

Yeah, WotC and a few others commonly offer the rates you suggest writers should hold out for, but they hardly offer enough jobs to sustain the number of writers in the industry, so there will be a lot of writers disappointed while they fight for those comparatively few jobs instead of going for those that may not be at the top but are still acceptable to anyone with enough knowledge to know what the standard is for the industry's typical jobs.

You have some good advice in your article, but your advice on rates is not very realistic for someone who is serious about looking for work as a writer.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Paul King at 2005-07-09 02:09:28
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My point was that the realities of making a living mean that pro writers have to go for rates of pay that are high enough for them to do that.

If you want the REALITY of the "industry" it is that is cannot support a large body of professionals - to produce the current volume of product it must rely on amateurs and semi-professionals who work as much for the love of it as the small amount of money it brings in.

And small .pdf publishers ought to recognise that and be grateful for the talent they can get rather than whining at the idea that professional writers should look for professional rates of pay.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Steven Trustrum at 2005-07-09 05:51:02
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Paul King said:
>> My point was that the realities of making a living mean that pro writers have to go for rates of pay that are high enough for them to do that.

Actually, the reality of the industry is that there aren't enough companies that can afford high enough rates for many people to make a living in the industry. The reality is that comparatively few publishers are themselves making their living entirely from the industry, and that includes several of the ones that you, the consumer, would look at and think are doing just fine.

Paul King said:
>> If you want the REALITY of the "industry" it is that is cannot support a large body of professionals - to produce the current volume of product it must rely on amateurs and semi-professionals who work as much for the love of it as the small amount of money it brings in.

Being professional means getting paid for what you do. It doesn't mean doing it full time and it doesn't mean doing it for the best rate in the industry. It's turning in work in exchange for cash. Your definition of "professional" also implies that such a writer not only needs to be working for top dollar but also that he cannot have love of the job as part of his motivation.

Sorry, Paul, but the reality of the industry is that if your definition were true some of the most highly recognized artist and writer names you customers know wouldn't be considered "professional."

Paul King said:
>> And small .pdf publishers ought to recognise that and be grateful for the talent they can get rather than whining at the idea that professional writers should look for professional rates of pay.

Without going into this point yet again, I'll just cut to the chase and point out again that you need to learn about the PDF industry before commenting on it. As with most people not actually working or publishing in it, you're an uninformed outsider looking in trying to say "here's how it should be done, now snap to!" while those of us on the ground floor are looking back at you wondering why you're trying to convince us we should all be bankrupt.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Paul King at 2005-07-09 08:35:39
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You just don't get it, do you ?

Let me make it very simple for you:

Do you accept that the writers actually have a valid interest in securing adequate rates of pay ?

Because if you agree with that then you have spent the whole time arguing against a misconception ?

Or do you really insist that they must sacrifice their interest to that of the publisher, accepting whatever rate is on offer ?

Beczause if that is what you mean then come out and say it, instead of insisting that i am wrong because I disagree with it.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Steven Trustrum at 2005-07-09 08:50:59
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Paul King said:
>> You just don't get it, do you ?

Paul, as both a small press publisher and a freelance writer, I've a very good feeling I "get it" far more than you.

Paul King said:
>> Do you accept that the writers actually have a valid interest in securing adequate rates of pay ?

Yep, and I also realize that getting work for less pay, so long as I find it acceptable, is better than sitting around on my hands waiting for those few top dollar jobs to come available.

Paul King said:
>> Because if you agree with that then you have spent the whole time arguing against a misconception ?

Not at all, Pall, because I realize one thing you've failed to pick up: the rate one is paid is not the sole reason a rpg writer -- or any creative professional, for that matter -- should have for taking on a job. If money is the sole or even driving force behind a creative work, it will likely show through in the work, which will suffer for it.

Paul King said:
>> Or do you really insist that they must sacrifice their interest to that of the publisher, accepting whatever rate is on offer ?

They take the jobs they consider acceptable, for whatever reason. Part of that acceptance usually involves things other than the rate. As a writer I've worked on low paying jobs because I thought he project's concept was real cool -- if the same rate had been offered for just the stanadard fare, say yet another book on dwarven culture, I'd have turned the project down. The rate was what it was, and the project was what it was, and the two combined was what appealed to me.

Paul King said:
>> Beczause if that is what you mean then come out and say it, instead of insisting that i am wrong because I disagree with it.

No, I'm saying you're wrong because you're someone who isn't actually involved in either end of the situation and are telling myself and other pros that we are either "amateurs" or "semi-pros", or in the case of publishers, possibly "selfish", when you're just some guy sitting outside the window, looking in. Excuse myself and others if we fail to accept that your opinion is based upon the most accurate data and perspective. Quite frankly, if those of us working in the rpg industry had a nickle for every time some person who isn't working in it told us how we should operate, none of us would need to be in the industry because people such as yourself would have made us all rich with your speculations.

Paul, quite frankly, you're welcome to stand there looking through the window all you like and pass judgement and express opinion. It's your right to speak your mind and nobody begrudges you that. But while you do that, myself and others you've been trying to enlighten will have to keep ourselves content by writing projects and getting paid for them as a writer and/or designing projects and paying for them as a publisher. Just one thing: when we try to clean that window for you so you can see in better, don't be surprised if nobody listens to you if you try and tell us we're doing it wrong.

Cheers.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Paul King at 2005-07-09 09:35:05
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Well it is quite clear that you don't disagree with anything I've really been saying. Most of what you are complaining about is the product of your imagination.

I suggested that one publisher seemed selfish for arguing that writers should accept the rates he offered simply because they were the best he could afford. How does that suggest that publishers in general are selfish ? After all you yourself said that considering only one side - which is exactly what that argument did - was selfish.

I suggested that IF pro writers went looking for the better rates then lower rate work would be left to semi-pros or amateurs. That doesn't judge the status of current writers at all.

If you are going to argue against what I say, at least do me the courtesy of arguing against what I actually said.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Dana Jorgensen at 2005-07-09 10:49:48
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Steven Trustrum wrote:
-------------------------------
Are those publishers typical of the industry? Are the jobs they're offering proliferate? Are they open to newbies or do they go first to the publisher's preferred freelancers? Are they offered in a public search or are they farmed mainly or solely through contacts?

-------------------------------

More importantly, what were those publishers paying when they were just starting out?

Lloyd's article completely ignores the history and economics of the industry, and as much as he likes to consider himself "well informed", his experience includes only involvement with Dragon and Kenzer & Co.

If every publisher could consistently rely on generating over $1 million in retail sales each month like Dragon, or even the $100K per month of Kenzer & Co, everyone would enjoy a higher per word pay rate, but the fact of the matter is, we don't. Pay is based on what can be squeezed out of the budget. And most importantly, those high budget publishers Lloyd has done work for were once in the exact same position as today's small publishers. A shame Lloyd wasn't around in those days so he could understand the foolishness of the selfishness he advocates.

In rereading the article, I ended up with some disturbing potential interpretations as well.

"Re-write it five times, and then sell it for .05/word."

I imagine there are going to be numerous neophytes who see this advice as a license to commit extortion; do the work, then hold out on delivery until the publisher gives in and pays more. There is actually precedent in the last 25 years for this sort of behavior.

"Write it, revise it, and keep revising it until you have a work that you can sell to a reputable source that can afford your skills."

Thank you Lloyd, for giving publishers cause to place draconic breach of contract terms into their contracts. You just advocated taking project files being done for one publisher, breaking contract and selling them in a quite mercenary fashion to another publisher coughing up a better paycheck. That's tantamount to industrial espionage.

And before you attempt to counter that, allow me to point out that the sentence also advocates other writers waste their time and money trying to sell unsolicited manuscripts. You do know that most publishers simply toss those in the trash along with the circulars and other junk mail that show up, right? This isn't a magazine-based industry. If the basics for the proposal were not drafted by the line manager, the publisher isn't going to even bother looking at whatever you mail in your effort to sell a manuscript to the highest bidder.

"Earning money is not evil. It is not wrong or immoral."

Incorrect. Earning money is not evil. How you earn it can be considered wrong or immoral. There are many other things authors can do to improve things for the industry in general, rather than focusing on the lazy, self-satisfying means Lloyd has proposed. Get out there and work the consumers. Participate in conventions as panel members, guests of honor, etc. Make sure the local shops know you and what you wrote. Do appearances to sign books. Make yourself and your name recognizable to the consumer. When your name has recognition, then it becomes worthwhile to have your name on the cover, and then no matter who you're writing for, you can look forward to seeing better pay.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Dana Jorgensen at 2005-07-09 11:19:48
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Paul King wrote:
-------------------------------
You just don't get it, do you ?

Let me make it very simple for you:

Do you accept that the writers actually have a valid interest in securing adequate rates of pay ?
--------------------------------
Why do you think everyone tells you "don't quit your day job" in this industry?

--------------------------------
Because if you agree with that then you have spent the whole time arguing against a misconception ?
--------------------------------
The misconception is on your part, in assuming a living wage can be earned in the RPG industry. Few people manage it, and for the most part, they'll all acknowledge that it is due to the fortune of being a salaried staffer for a corporate publisher like WotC or WW, not from being a freelancer.

-------------------------------
Or do you really insist that they must sacrifice their interest to that of the publisher, accepting whatever rate is on offer ?
-------------------------------
If they want to work for a particular publisher or with a proprietary game system, then yes, they do. Just another important fact of the industry that was grossly overlooked by Lloyd Brown in his article. If I want a particular type of project done and five people are interested in doing it, only those who can work within the established budget will be considered. Someone demanding a pay rate that will break the budget isn't likely to be chosen, unless your name is Monte Cook, Gary Gygax, Robin Laws, or one of the other people known well enough that publishers will place their names on covers without hesitation.

--------------------------------
Beczause if that is what you mean then come out and say it, instead of insisting that i am wrong because I disagree with it.
--------------------------------
Truth is Paul, you are wrong. Like Lloyd, you ignore the history and economics of the industry, instead deciding that both revolve around the demands of writers, rather than market trends. Fact of the matter is, those who do now pay $0.05 or more did not do so when they were just starting out. Another fact of the matter is those high paying jobs are going to remain rare and the low paying jobs will continue to dominate the industry, and no matter how much people like Lloyd and you demand that change, the economics of the industry will not allow that to happen. The only way things will change is if the consumer market expands significantly without the industrial side of the marketplace matching that expansion. The entire article was a pointless bluster because the economics of the industry is the real culprit and there isn't much anyone in the industry can do about it, big or small, individual or business entity.

That is why we publishers are taking the stand that we have. We're the ones that see the big picture from that standpoint. You writers and artists would do well to pay attention to us when we describe it for you, because it will save everyone a lot of time, effort and grief in the end.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Dana Jorgensen at 2005-07-09 11:27:24
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Paul King wrote:
-------------------------------
I suggested that one publisher seemed selfish for arguing that writers should accept the rates he offered simply because they were the best he could afford. How does that suggest that publishers in general are selfish ? After all you yourself said that considering only one side - which is exactly what that argument did - was selfish.
-------------------------------
No, you called all of us selfish in that aspect because we all offer the best we can afford. Unfortunately, thanks to Lloyd, we now have a heap of less experienced authors who think everyone is holding out on them if they aren't offering .05 per word.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Dana Jorgensen at 2005-07-09 11:28:14
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Lloyd Brown wrote:
-------------------------------
I'm leaving it alone for now, but the concept of exposure will come up in the next article.


Lloyd, allow us to thank you in advance for contradicting yourself with the next article.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Steven Trustrum at 2005-07-09 13:13:39
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Paul King said:
>> Well it is quite clear that you don't disagree with anything I've really been saying. Most of what you are complaining about is the product of your imagination.

Actually, Paul, what I'm arguing with you in particular about is the fact that your opinion is refined from a narrow scope. I've pointed this out several times and directed you as to how it relates to your point. You've ignored this and continue to go on about your point is being missed. Rest assured, I know what you are saying. You can also rest assured that I'm aware of how incomplete your conclusion is.

Paul King said:
>> I suggested that one publisher seemed selfish for arguing that writers should accept the rates he offered simply because they were the best he could afford. How does that suggest that publishers in general are selfish ? After all you yourself said that considering only one side - which is exactly what that argument did - was selfish.

I answered this point earlier while clearly stating I was answering as someone who is still working as a freelancer for others AND as a small press publisher. Now, if I agree more with the other person than with you, you may want to consider that I am indeed speaking from both sides, that publisher is speaking form the side of the publisher and your own opinion comes from neither side. It is drawn from the information available to a complete outsider to either perspective. Perhaps you should consider that when you start telling people they can't see your opinion or that they are wrong.

Paul King said:
>> I suggested that IF pro writers went looking for the better rates then lower rate work would be left to semi-pros or amateurs. That doesn't judge the status of current writers at all.

Sigh.

Let me say this again for the cheap seats: those "better rate" jobs are VERY rare in the industry. VERY. Most people get them for being at the right place at the right time. So, if these jobs are very rare, what good does that do the pool of "professional," let alone "amateur" or "semi-pro" writers (your cliassifications, not mine), are going to do in between? Wait for the next job or actually bring some money in during the time between, even if it's not for that higher rate? Personally, I prefer to fill the time in between to bring some cash in, hone my skills, expand my contacts, and increase my credits rather than waiting for the next "big shot." Why would I do that? Because THAT is professionalism: recognizing that if you want to get paid for doing the work, you DO THE WORK, where you can get it if you can't currently find something better. THAT is the mentality needed to be a serious creative talent.

Paul King said:
>> If you are going to argue against what I say, at least do me the courtesy of arguing against what I actually said.

Paul, when you start listening to the people who actually live in the situation and realize what you're saying but recognize it as wrong, and also realize that disagreeing with you isn't the same as not hearing you, then we can chat. Until then ...

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Paul King at 2005-07-09 13:30:57
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The fundamental issue under dispute right now is not the nature of the industry or even the claims of the article. It is whether or not I made the claims you attribute to me. On that point my view holds greater weight than yours. Yet you absolutely refuse to accept my authority on that issue and persist in your misrepresentations.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Paul King at 2005-07-09 13:36:09
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You're wrong. I'm not demanding change. Nor am I demanding that publishers should pay rates which would make their products uneconomic.

What I am saying is that professional writers should not be expected to sacrifice their interests to those of the publisher. Thus it is not valid to argue that writers should accept the rates you can afford to pay simply because you cannot afford to pay more.

If you have better arguments then you should use them - instead of complaining when the argument you did use is shown to be wanting.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Steven Trustrum at 2005-07-09 13:45:19
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Paul King said:
>> The fundamental issue under dispute right now is not the nature of the industry or even the claims of the article. It is whether or not I made the claims you attribute to me. On that point my view holds greater weight than yours. Yet you absolutely refuse to accept my authority on that issue and persist in your misrepresentations.

Paul, let me see if I can make this clear one last time before I leave you alone: your point, whether you see it or not, speaks very much to the nature of the industry because your opinion is made under several assumptions that those of us in the industry actually know the truth of. As Dana pointed out, although you believe you are directing your comment at one company, you are in fact directing it at far more than that because that company is not the only one to operate under those conditions. If you wish your view to hold greater weight than mine or anyone else who works under those conditions instead of just sits back and looks through the window, I suggest you start writing in the industry so that you can deal with publishers and see how often your opinion holds true. Better yet, try being a publisher dealing with writers and see how your belief holds up. Until then, your "greater weight" is white noise railing against white noise.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Steven Trustrum at 2005-07-09 13:50:22
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Paul King said:
>> What I am saying is that professional writers should not be expected to sacrifice their interests to those of the publisher. Thus it is not valid to argue that writers should accept the rates you can afford to pay simply because you cannot afford to pay more.

Except one thing you still miss: if writers consider their "interests" to exist purely under the terms you've defined them as, they'll find themselves unemployed a lot because it isn't a publisher's will that those conditions exist, but rather the unavoidable reality of finances. Saying it is the writer who defines the rates and not the very real and tight budgets of most companies in the industry is wholly naive, foolish and ignores quite a bit of rudimentary economics. Unless the majority of the industry can support the rates the writers demand (which, if the rates in the article are used as the standard, it can't), there's nothing to be done unless companies are perfectly okay with going bankrupt.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Lloyd Brown at 2005-07-09 14:05:23
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<<Unfortunately, thanks to Lloyd, we now have a heap of less experienced authors who think everyone is holding out on them if they aren't offering .05 per word. >>

At no point did I suggest that every publisher can afford to pay that much. I suggested avoiding working for the ones that do. Again, next month, the column discusses the exceptions.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Lloyd Brown at 2005-07-09 14:12:07
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<<Are they open to newbies or do they go first to the publisher's preferred freelancers? Are they offered in a public search or are they farmed mainly or solely through contacts? >>

Actually, yes. I've never been contacted by a publisher directly for work. All work I've done has been in response to getting a job by writing a well-worded query letter or by developing a relationship with a publisher and then making a less formal proposal. The clear and professional query came first. Always.

I can assure you that if a publisher receives a well-written query/proposal from a new writer, and that writer follows it up with a grammatically clean manuscript that is interesting and that complies with the publisher's guidelines, then it deserves serious consideration, regardless of who was there first. It might not bump a project the publisher is committed to already, but he'll work hard to get it on the schedule as soon as possible if he thinks he can sell it.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Lloyd Brown at 2005-07-09 14:21:48
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<<Lloyd, allow us to thank you in advance for contradicting yourself with the next article.>>

I suppose that's one way to look at it. Since I identified the next article at the bottom of the page (for the first and probably only time), it's not like it's a surprise to anyone.

I'm simply presenting two angles in two different columns so that we can discuss each issue individually. What if the topic were different: "Why you should not get married", followed by "Why you should get married"? I doubt I'd be accused of contradicting myself. Fortunately, I think most people got it.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Lloyd Brown at 2005-07-09 14:39:43
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<<If every publisher could consistently rely on generating over $1 million in retail sales each month like Dragon, or even the $100K per month of Kenzer & Co, everyone would enjoy a higher per word pay rate, but the fact of the matter is, we don't. >>

Your numbers are vastly off base. Kenzer might be bringing that in, but it isn't off the Kalamar line. WotC's beating that number, but as for Dragon, they publish an annual statement of distribution that shows the error in that math (even through it doesn't include ad revenue).

However, I can't argue with the overall conclusion that some publishers are larger than others.

<<I imagine there are going to be numerous neophytes who see this advice as a license to commit extortion; do the work, then hold out on delivery until the publisher gives in and pays more. There is actually precedent in the last 25 years for this sort of behavior.>>

I would disagree, but you never can tell what a new guy will do until he does it, so I'll add something I continue to stress throughout the column: writers should always present themselves as professionals in both presentation and behavior. You fulfill your agreements. In that situation, I would certainly recommend that the publisher not pay any further payment and refuse to work with that writer from then on.

<<How you earn it can be considered wrong or immoral.>>

I do hope you're not implying that working for a self-imposed minimum wage is wrong or immoral.

<<Get out there and work the consumers. ...and then no matter who you're writing for, you can look forward to seeing better pay. >>

Really? About 60 of the posts ahead of you state that some publishers simply can't afford to pay more. You did say, and I quote again "no matter who you're writing for."

And I never said that you can't promote yourself directly to consumers. In fact, I've been staying very strongly on a single topic and haven't discussed that. I *did* say that consumer recognition was a rare quality. I never said you shouldn't attempt to gain it.

I will point out that 99% of the people who know Ed Greenwood don't know him from the local game store or from a game he ran at a con. They know him because he wrote good material.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Lloyd Brown at 2005-07-09 15:01:38
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<<Now, it would be hard for Alea Publishing Group to pay .05 a word, but we would if ...we could get a profit. ...But for an unsolicited manuscript, by an unknown writer - .01 a word is not great but is feasible>>

I apologize for the selective quoting. I don't think I misrepresented you, though.

That's quite a huge variable you have there! You'd quintuple your normal rates if the quality of the work were high enough?

Everyone else: please not that I'm not holding Alea up as an example of every publisher. I'm asking questions of somebody I've never heard of before.

You mentioned a "commission." What do you mean by that? Do you mean a royalty rate based on sales?

And on that topic you said "which by the way is not translated as free"

Would you be willing to share a specific dollar number and the appropriate word count for comparison purposes? I understand entirely if you're not.

My statement behind the royalty is based on this: for print products, a publisher's breakeven, depending on a ton of variables, might run between 1,500 and 5,000 copies. Obviously, exceptions exist both below and above that range. Let's please don't quibble for 80 posts over that exact number.

Most RPG products in 2004 sold...less than that. A publisher paying a net royalty rate is likely to end up owing the writer nothing (because costs exceeded revenues). A publisher paying a gross royalty rate is going to owe a small number and still take a long time to recoup his costs--which is why I know of exactly zero print publishers offering that option. (If you know of an exception, please share).

If you haven't considered that already, *nothing* for 40,000 or 100,000 words or more is a painful, painful thought. Especially when a large portion of the factors that go into sales are entirely in the publisher's hand--trade dress, price point, distribution, and size of the initial print run being some of the big ones. It's one thing if I'm risking my own money with my own decisions. It's quite another to risk my income on somebody else's decision.

<<this is usually unsolicited material; i.e. the writer doesn't have an agent>>

Unsolicited and unagented are two different things. And I don't know of any agent that represents a writer for RPG work. I've been tal