Perception = dexterity??

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Post originally by Torben Mogensen at 2005-07-11 06:18:34
Converted from Phorums BB System


I was surprised that you consider perception to be subsumed by dexterity and constitution. I can see no relation at all between perception and constitution, and the closest link between perception and dexterity I can see is hand/eye coordination, which determine how well you can combine perception and dexterity in one act.

Also, I don't really think it is productive to classify attributes as physical, psychological or both. As you say, you often get borderline cases, and it isn't clear to what purpose you would use such a classification (apart from requiring a minumum or maximum number of attributes in each category).

I think it is much more fruitful to take a step back and consider what you use attributes for. Depending on game, I have seen it used for:

- Modifiers for skill use or learning.

- Defense (saving throws, etc.)

- Default skill when no trained skill applies.

- Calculating hit points, speed, lifting ability, healing rate, etc.

Some of these uses suggest that an attribute can be considered a basic talent for a specific group of skills, while other uses suggest general physical condition. The latter does not really help learning new skills, but they may affect the outcome of using them: A person with high strength will perform better at brawling than a weaker opponent with the same amount of training. But a talent for, say, languages affects learning as much as (or more than) use of a skill.

Furthemore, physical condition is not constant: A weak or clumsy person can be trained to be strong or agile, but some talents seem to be inborn rather than trained (though you can argue that childhood stimulation plays a role too). So I would suggest dividing attributes into talents, that are inborn and affect both training and use of skills, and physical forms that can be trained and which affects skill usage only.

You might consider, though, whether to classify intelligence as a talent or a physical form, buying into the notion that mind and body are the same and that intelligence is as much a matter of training as of genetics.

Note that with this division, you can have talents for physical forms.

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Post originally by Sergio Mascarenhas at 2005-07-11 22:04:22
Converted from Phorums BB System

(Second take. I lost the first while uploading it, damn'.)

"the closest link between perception and dexterity I can see is hand/eye coordination, which determine how well you can combine perception and dexterity in one act"

In most games Dexterity incorporates both dexterity meaning hand/eye coordination, and agility. Let's look at both:

There's a certain relation between strict sense dexterity and perception, at two levels (at least), sight and tactile sensibility. With a smaller impact there's also some influence of earing and smelling, at least in some circumstances.

What about the relationship between perception and agility? Let's consider some cases.
Compare two average men where the first is completely average and the other is blind. Who is more agile on average?
Now, consider top sportsmen. For instance, a top footballer (soccer player for the Americans in the crowd) or a tennis player. A good deal of their skill rests on their ability to be at the right place at the right time (maneuvering and positioning) and to kick the ball to the right spot. Think about a skier or a mountain climber. Being good at their sports means to a great extent being good at choosing the best path to follow.
In all these situations there are three main abilities at work: A good sight, a good sense of balance and (to a lesser extent) good earing. Agility is highly dependent on perception abilities.

"I can see no relation at all between perception and constitution"

Oh, but there is. For a start, we have to keep in mind that rpg traits are abstractions, because of that they ask for many compromises in terms of their ability to represent real situations. Now, a good constitution means that on average the character has a good health in most of his functions. This includes his perceptive capabilities. In other words, on average we should assume that if we have no other data on the characters, the ones with higher constitution should have better perception.
Furthermore, we have to consider that lower constitution means that the character will be more subject to illnesses. A lot of these affect the senses. Flu and colds affect smelling, taste, sight and earing; skin sicknesses affect tactile perception; digestive sicknesses afect taste; nervous and mental illnesses may affect most any sense.
If you follow this reasoning, we have ground to relate perception to constitution.

"I don't really think it is productive to classify attributes as physical, psychological or both. ... it isn't clear to what purpose you would use such a classification"

Well, the present column is just the first is a long series of columns about attributes (it's one of the subjects that will have more columns since it is such a core issue). I suppose that the purpose will become apparent as the series progresses. In any case, notice that my imediate purpose is to find a way to compare different game systems. From that point of view it is convenient to have some type of break up of attributes into categories.

"I think it is much more fruitful to take a step back and consider what you use attributes for"

What you call a "step back" I call a 'step forward'. At this stage I'm handling attributes as representations of non-game entities, as models of something (real or fictional) that is independent of the game system. Yes, we do it to get game entities that will fuel the game mechanics. Yet, I think it is better to start small by considering a single issue (how non-game entities are represented in games) instead of mixing it with other issues (what the mechanics do with those game entities).

Of course, the system is a whole that includes both game entities and mechanics, and the former can't live without the latter, so in the *end* we need to consider both together. Yet, the reasoning has to progress a stage at a time, so it's better not to mix too many things at the start. Consider that any conclusions I present now are conditional and may need to be revised latter when I introduce other issues like what are attributes used for.

In any case, your "step back" has real food for thought. I'll keep a reference to it and will certainly bring it back when I'll finally discuss how attributes are to be used by the mechanics.

Sergio

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Post originally by heratyk at 2005-07-13 14:07:41
Converted from Phorums BB System

I think perception/awareness fits in between dexterity and intelligence (or similar mental characteristic), since it has a distinct impact on physical coordination as well as incorporating the ability to interpret what the senses reveal. To use the above mentioned examples, a farsighted skiier or deaf tennis player could have a very high dexterity indeed. Conversely, a perceptive Sherlock Holmes or a keen-eyed cripple need not have a superior dexterity.

The link to Constitution/Health is far more tenuous. While in real life, your overall health will affect your sensory organs, I haven't seen any such connection in the way RPGs use these attributes.

One option I didn't see covered is to have acute hearing, keen eyesight, etc. as feats/advantages/merits, and poor hearing, blindness, etc. as disadvantages/flaws that modify intelligence, instead of being a base attribute of its own.

Another thing you have to consider is what percetption would do in game terms. Besides affecting sense rolls, does it affect ranged accuracy? initiative? forensic analysis? detecting lies?. I think D&D3e confuses the issue when they make senses part of "Wisdom", resulting in hawks or bloodhounds who excell at professional skills and have stong willpower.

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Post originally by Sergio Mascarenhas at 2005-07-13 21:45:52
Converted from Phorums BB System

There are two ways of defining perception: Either as the ability to understand the data provided by the senses or as sensibility. I use the term in the second sense, you are using it in the first sense.

The reason why I use it in the second sense is to avoid having perception overlapping other traits like intellect/intelligence. If we factor intellectual ability into Perception and we have an Intellect stat, how do we relate both? And how do we handle entities/creatures with low intellectual abilities and high perceptive abilities (like many animals)?

I also consider that perception relates to coordination which can be either dexterity or agility. Sherlock Holmes may not be agile (he was) and still be very dexterous.

Note, in any case, that we are dealing with simplifications.

"One option I didn't see covered is to have acute hearing, keen eyesight, etc. as feats/advantages/merits, and poor hearing, blindness, etc. as disadvantages/flaws that modify intelligence, instead of being a base attribute of its own"

I'm discussing attributes on their own. I'm not discussing other types of character descriptors at this stage. Yes, I can cover sensibility with other types of descriptors but that demands that a) I use those other types of descriptors, and b) that it does not create new problems (usually I don't consider a good idea to use different types of descriptors to represent similar aspects of the character).

"Another thing you have to consider is what percetption would do in game terms. Besides affecting sense rolls, does it affect ranged accuracy? initiative? forensic analysis? detecting lies?."

Certainly. I'm considering just this problem when I say that Perception has to be factored into skills or similar descriptors (what you mention above is usually handled through skills).

It's because of all of this that I consider that it's better not to have an independent perception stat and that perceptive abilities can be factored into other stats and skills (or whatever the game uses to represent acquired abilities).

Sergio

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Post originally by Sergio Mascarenhas at 2005-07-13 21:51:09
Converted from Phorums BB System

Another point I forgot to mention, I didn't say that perception is to be specifically subsumed under dexterity. What I said is that different aspects of perception are to be subsumed under different traits. Some aspects are to be subsumed under dexterity, other under constitution and so on.

And I didn't address this:
"The link to Constitution/Health is far more tenuous. While in real life, your overall health will affect your sensory organs, I haven't seen any such connection in the way RPGs use these attributes"

That's not a reason for me not to do it. In any case, what I mean is that if the system does not provide a way to handle things like taste or smell, I can factor it into Constitution. The fact that other games don't do this tells us nothing because most game systems I know don't address specifically these sensorial abilities.

Sergio

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Post originally by heratyk at 2005-07-14 17:48:48
Converted from Phorums BB System

> There are two ways of defining perception: Either as the ability to
> understand the data provided by the senses or as sensibility. I use
> the term in the second sense, you are using it in the first sense.

I’m using it in both senses (so to speak). One is useless without the other. If you have 20/20 vision, but fail to realize that those shoes poking out from under the drapes are out of place, you’re no more able to spot the intruder than if you’re unable to see more than 2 ft in front of your face. Perception, awareness, or whatever you want to call it is as much mental as it is physical.

> The reason why I use it in the second sense is to avoid having
> perception overlapping other traits like intellect/intelligence.
> If we factor intellectual ability into Perception and we have an
> Intellect stat, how do we relate both? And how do we handle entities
>/creatures with low intellectual abilities and high perceptive
> abilities (like many animals)?
> I also consider that perception relates to coordination which
> can be either dexterity or agility. Sherlock Holmes may not be
> agile (he was) and still be very dexterous.

But you’re overlapping perception with Dexterity, instead. Once again, there’s not a direct relationship between your sensory acuity and dexterity. Consider the short-sighted & half-deaf watchmaker who’s nimble hands deftly piece together the tiny gears, or the quadriplegic with perfect vision, hearing, and taste. Either case is no less probable than a watchmaker with highly acute senses, or the deaf/blind/anosmic cripple. Is a hawk more dexterous or agile than a monkey since it has sharper senses? I’m not saying you HAVE to have a perception stat, just that it involves more than just dexterity.

>> "Another thing you have to consider is what perception would do
>> in game terms. Besides affecting sense rolls, does it affect
>> ranged accuracy? initiative? forensic analysis? detecting lies?."

> Certainly. I'm considering just this problem when I say that
> Perception has to be factored into skills or similar descriptors
> (what you mention above is usually handled through skills).

Initiative and defense are more often than not separate from skills in most RPGs. Skills are usually tied to attributes in some way. For instance, jumping skill is normally based on agility or strength, while chemistry skill is based on intelligence or knowledge. If you have a spot or listen skill, would they be modified by dexterity? Knowing what you want your attributes to do, and what you want to leave to skills and other traits is an important factor in determining which & how many attributes to include. It’s also important from a balance perspective to give each attribute approximately the same importance as to what game mechanics it affects, or else give them different costs to reflect the imbalance. A related concern is whether to have sub-attributes, or secondary attributes dependent on one or more primary ones.

>> "The link to Constitution/Health is far more tenuous. While in real
>> life, your overall health will affect your sensory organs, I haven't
>> seen any such connection in the way RPGs use these attributes"

> That's not a reason for me not to do it. In any case, what I mean
> is that if the system does not provide a way to handle things
> like taste or smell, I can factor it into Constitution. The fact
> that other games don't do this tells us nothing because most game
> systems I know don't address specifically these sensorial abilities.

Constitution primarily represents things like how much damage you can withstand and how far you can run before tiring. None of these characteristics is closely related to sensory acuity, either in life or in stereotypes that people want to play. A big brute or a marathoner might just as easily need glasses or a hearing aid, as be able to see & hear a gnat from half a mile away. Saying “I have lots of hit points, therefore I can see well in the dark”, or “Because of my incredible stamina, I can smell the difference between fresh & canned spaghetti sauce” just doesn’t make any sense.

- heratyk

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Post originally by Sergio Mascarenhas at 2005-07-14 20:39:16
Converted from Phorums BB System

"Perception, awareness, or whatever you want to call it is as much mental as it is physical"

Certainly, but mental in which terms? In terms of intelligence? Not necessarily.

"But you’re overlapping perception with Dexterity, instead. Once again, there’s not a direct relationship between your sensory acuity and dexterity"

I guess I didn't explain myself well. I'm not tying perception to dexterity and to dexterity only. I'm tying perception to all the attributes in the game. If the game has an agility stat, there's a perception component to it. The same if the game as constitution, intelligence, wisdom, willpower, whatever.

"Consider the short-sighted & half-deaf watchmaker who’s nimble hands deftly piece together the tiny gears"

He does this because he compensates his shortcoming in sight and earing with a good tactile sensibility. Actually here you point to another problem with a Perception stat: It is an abstraction that combines in an average several different and independent things. One more reason to not having the stat and to factor the senses into other stats or to skills.

"or the quadriplegic with perfect vision, hearing, and taste"

But the quadriplegic is not the norm in rpg stats. Usually it's an exception that is deal as such. It does not figure in the normal range of the stats.

"I’m not saying you HAVE to have a perception stat, just that it involves more than just dexterity"

That's what I've been trying to say from the begining, sorry if I was not clear. That's why I said that there's even a residual component of perception that may be handled with constitution.

"Initiative and defense are more often than not separate from skills in most RPGs"

For reasons that baffle me most of the time. In the case of fighting it has more to do with a defective analysis of combat than anything else.

"Skills are usually tied to attributes in some way"

True. This is an important issue that I'll cover at a latter stage in the design process. I prefer to settle on the concept of attributes and skills first, and next move to the way they interact. In any case, I can advance some ideas.
I tend to not agree with a strict tying up of skills to attributes. I to be able to tie a skill to the attribute(s) that make more sense in context. For instance, the skill Chemistry may tie to dexterity if the person is doing a chemical experiment; to communication/charisma/whatever if he is teaching chemistry; to Intelligence if he is researching; etc.

"If you have a spot or listen skill"

It's unlikely that I'll have these skills. Most likely the other skills will incorporate the ability to spot or listen. The relevant attribute will depend on context once more.

(The other points you mention after this in the same paragraph will be covered as the game design progresses.)

"Saying “I have lots of hit points, therefore I can see well in the dark”, or “Because of my incredible stamina, I can smell the difference between fresh & canned spaghetti sauce” just doesn’t make any sense"

Certainly but the tie up between some sensorial abilities does not need to be done in such a crude way. I am sure that I'll be able to present things in a way that justifies a *residual* linking between perception and constitution.

Thanks once more for the discussion. It helps me a lot in confronting my ideas and how they may be turned into game rules.

Sergio