Size v.s. Strength

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Post originally by SteelCaress at 2005-08-18 13:11:13
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Size does not always mean Strength.

Strength (In my view) is the ability to exert a certain amount of physical force. That is, lifting, punching, etc. Unlike D&D, it doesn't allow you to hit more often.

Size (again, IMHO) is a measure of body mass. One may factor Size into the ability to withstand physical punishment (like Hit Points in BRP, also in Villains & Vigilantes), and in Villains & Vigilantes it also affected Agility.

In the real world, there are massive steroid monsters who are heavy and strong (Brock Lesner from WWE comes to mind -- a Google image search will show you what I mean). But look at the massively overweight guy walking down the street? Do you think he can lift a huge amount because he has to drag that weight around with him all day long? Or do you think that he may be desk-bound, leading a sedentary lifestyle, and may not be able to lift much more than 100 lbs (45 kg)? My father is heavier than I am, due to a gut, and can't lift as much as I, because I exercise moderately and do lift weights (so I can fight the midwinter bulge). I'm lighter (lower Size), but I can lift more (higher Strength).

Just some things to think about. I eagerly await your next installment.

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Post originally by Sergio Mascarenhas at 2005-08-18 21:04:43
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SteelCaress,

You are perfectly right when you state that size does not equate strengh, I could not agree more. If I gave that impression it is because i did not express myself in the best way. Let me try to explain it better now by stating a critical issue: What I'm trying to look at is how game mechanics express things like size and strengh. Now, many games have specific stats for that purpose (as my sample shows but would be obvious to most people with a collection of rpgs even without it).

As you say, size can mean many things. It can mean what I think I called 'functional' size or useful size: Muscle and bones and whatever in our physique is useful to our physical action. On the other hand, it may mean useless matter like fat or water (I'm not an expert on the issue but I have this impression that one of the effects of steroids is to retain water in the body, thus providing bulk). The concept of size I was applying was about useful, 'functional' size.

My take on strengh is not that it is equal to size, but that size (meaning useful size) is an important determinant on how much strengh one can exert. Yet, there are more things to it than size.
One thing is adroitness (or dexterity in common rpg parlance). As you say, strengh "is the ability to exert a certain amount of physical force. That is, lifting, punching, etc". The key words in this context are "exert", "lifting", "punching". All of them imply movement, physical dynamics. Usually this is represented in rpgs with its own trait, independetly of strengh. Yet, strengh requires it.
Another thing is skill or training. In other words, the know-how to apply strengh. That's what you refer to when you mention that you exercise.

In other words, I see strengh as combining three things: Size (in the sense presented above); adroitness; skill.
If that is so, it makes no sense to have a trait for strengh. Instead, the game system should represent strengh as a combination of three descriptors, one for adroitness, one for size and one for skill. That's what Rough Quests will do and that's the reason I didn't include a stat for strengh.

Thanks for providing an occasion to be more specific about what I think about this issue, and to see that I'm not alone in the way I look at it.

Sergio

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Post originally by Jethrow at 2005-08-29 02:07:00
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I admit that I am an unabashed flag-waver for the original Harnmaster system, but once again I feel that it has something to offer to this debate. Strength in Harnmaster is a standard 3-18 stat, modified by race (with a +1 or whatever bonus), and size. A character's body mass affects strength based on a chart which lists Str bonuses as a + or -, with no modifier for a average human male's weight. Obesity is a separate issue, which characters can receive through a roll on the Medical Traits table, and obesity does not contribute to Str based on mass, but does add automatic encumberance to a character. Please, Sergio, check out Harnmaster if you have not already done so, as I know you like the Runequest system, and Harnmaster appears to me to have been strongly influenced by Runequest.

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Post originally by Sergio Mascarenhas at 2005-08-29 03:13:48
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Jethrow, thanks for the suggestion. You are right, I didn't check Harnmaster. I keep adding games for my set but there are always many more that escape my list of priorities and Harnmaster has been subject to that fate.
The way you describe it sounds somewhat similar to what can be found in Skyrealms of Jorune, another game influenced by BRP. Now I'll have to check Harnmaster. Maybe with my next order of game books (not before the end of next month since I placed my last order some hours ago).

Thanks for the suggestion and comments,

Sergio

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Post originally by Jethrow at 2005-08-29 03:39:47
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I am surprised you have not read Harnmaster before, but delighted that you will now. It is a gem. I am most familiar with the first edition Harnmaster, but I believe that the later editions, Harmaster Core, Harnmaster III and Harnmaster Gold, are very similar. I am very familiar with Skyrealms of Jorune, as that is the setting chosen by my friend and Harnmaster contributor Bill Gant as the planet Sherem in the Harnmaster multiverse.

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Post originally by Sergio Mascarenhas at 2005-08-29 04:20:33
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What would you suggest me to buy as a Harnmaster start-up from what is currently available in the market, and keeping in mind that I'm more interested in the system than the setting?

Sergio

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Post originally by Jethrow at 2005-08-29 04:41:04
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Erm, okay, let me start by explaining that some years back a schism developed between the creator of Harnmaster, N Robin Crossby, and his publisher Columbia Games. There are now two parallel versions of Harnmaster and related products. I am a Harn freak and love products from both groups (and I don't want to upset anyone), but for my money Harnmaster Gold is the closest available product to the original Harnmaster, and is available at www.kelestia.com. Harnmaster 3rd Edition is available from www.columbiagames.com. You don't have to worry about unnecessary setting information, as both HM Gold and HM III are fairly setting-neutral.

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Post originally by Sergio Mascarenhas at 2005-08-29 05:47:36
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Thanks for the info. I'll see the data I can collect on both and decide which to pick afterwards.

Sergio