Secondary Attributes/Characteristics

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Post originally by byline at 2005-12-16 21:33:45
Converted from Phorums BB System

After reading through your attributes and characteristics, I can't help but think you might have overthought a few of them. One thing that would help put them into proper context is knowing what kind of scale you plan your stats to have (i.e. 1-5 or 1-100). The smaller your scale, the more your stats are going to run into one another. Though you haven't mentioned it, I'm curious what kind of range you're looking at.

I also noticed that a couple of your secondary attributes and characteristics won't allow someone to be strong in two of the three and weak in the third. For example, you have separate secondary characteristics for Toughness and Endurance. Since all three primary characteristics are involved in the calculations for both, one is going to suffer over the other. With a low stat range this won't matter all that much, but the higher you get the greater the disparity between them, which would be unfortunate because there are situations where someone can be both tough and enduring (taking into your consideration the definitions for each).

One other thing you might want to clarify is the calculation. I'm guessing you intend to average the sum of the two primaries listed, yet the way you wrote the calculation makes it look like only the second primary attribute listed gets halved: (ADR + COM)/2 instead of ADR + COM/2. Unless you want only the second value halved, you should make it clear to take the average of the two.

Just some thoughts that came up while reading your article. Hopefully the criticisms don't overstep any lines. :)

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Post originally by Sergio Mascarenhas at 2005-12-17 00:51:05
Converted from Phorums BB System

I plan to have a fairly short range (and in due time I'll give my reasons for it) in the order of 5 or 7 steps. I don't see why a smaller scale will make stats run into another, though.

You are right about the point you make in the second paragraph. That's a feature of the system, not a limitation. It is not designed for all-powerful characters that beat anyone else in any field of action. Let me put it this way, it is modeled more on Bruce Lee movies than on Van Dame's or Schwarznegger's. In this system you can have a massive brute facing a lean and small guy with high endurance. If the latter is able to keep the brute out of distance long enough, he will tire him into innaction. That's the spirit.

On the third paragraph, yes, it needs to be clarified. The idea is that you get the average of the two traits. This creates the issue of fractions. Since it's always combinations of three primary stats, if there are fractions these will be there in two secondary stats. The player is free to decide which of these two rounds up and which rounds down.

Thanks for the comments, all of them are food for thought and very helpful.

Sergio

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Post originally by Ash at 2005-12-17 01:11:58
Converted from Phorums BB System

I can't help feeling that it is redundant having both Charisma and Communication. I simply cannot think of enough situations where the former would be useful in which the latter would not. One could easily run the two together by classifying Communication as non-verbal communication (body language, presence etc) as well as speaking skills. I also don't see why a THIRD secondary attribute called 'Presence' is then required on top of these two, especially when Charisma would have covered the situation perfectly well alone.

I'm not even sure about the point of the size attribute to be honest, since both being large and small have benefits to them and giving such a value a score implies that, in line with other statistics, bigger is better.

I would heartily suggest trimming back on a lot of these statistics. Overcomplicating matters rarely helps. I would also recommend thinking less about what other systems have and more about how your own system is going to function. If an attribute simply isn't going to be serviced in the course of the game there is no point recording it.

Ash

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Post originally by Sergio Mascarenhas at 2005-12-17 01:38:04
Converted from Phorums BB System

"I can't help feeling that it is redundant having both Charisma and Communication." Well, I see them as representing different forms of interaction. A good communicator is not necessarily someone that actually influences others. He may be able to entertain, get information, distract, and not be able to lead others to do what he wants. On the other hand, the charismatic person is able to influence others without saying much.
These are two clear profiles present in fiction if not reality. By having both the game provides variety in terms of the psychological profile of the characters. That's the point.
Besides, these two stats will be used in different ways in the action resolution system. To simplify things, the relationship I envision between communication and charisma is paralel to the relationship between adroitness and size.

On the issue of presence, the point is whether it is redundant to have it when the system has charisma. Now, the main difference will be that charisma works better for one-on-one situations while presence is directed towards one-to-many situations. This will be clarified at a latter stage of the game design.

On the issue of size. What's at stake is just the issue of delivering more damage. Yes, being smaller has its advantages and that will be reflected in the system.

"I would heartily suggest trimming back on a lot of these statistics. Overcomplicating matters rarely helps." I already did this by reducing the number of stats to 12. I consider this number manageable specially since it corresponds to two sets of 6, each to be used independently of the other. Optional rules will provide guidelines on how to reduce the set even further.

"I would also recommend thinking less about what other systems have and more about how your own system is going to function." My purpose is to focus on the way my system is going to function, but I loose nothing in learning with the good and bad points of other systems.

"If an attribute simply isn't going to be serviced in the course of the game there is no point recording it." All attributes I listed are going to be useful in the course of the game.

Thanks for the comments. They provide a different perspective and insight into the system I'm developping.

Sergio

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Post originally by Ash at 2005-12-18 04:57:29
Converted from Phorums BB System

"A good communicator is not necessarily someone that actually influences others. He may be able to entertain, get information, distract, and not be able to lead others to do what he wants."
But entertaining, distracting and obtaining information from people are ALL ways of getting others to do what you want.

Anyway, it's your game and you can do what you like with it, but I for one wouldn't feel happy about that layout of stats.

Ash

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Post originally by byline at 2005-12-18 11:46:04
Converted from Phorums BB System

"I plan to have a fairly short range (and in due time I'll give my reasons for it) in the order of 5 or 7 steps. I don't see why a smaller scale will make stats run into another, though."

I spoke too soon about stats running into one another, as I don't know how you intend to resolve challenges (i.e. what dice pools are used, how the numbers apply mechanically). I'll give you the benefit of doubt and reserve judgment until you explain challenge resolution.

"It is not designed for all-powerful characters that beat anyone else in any field of action. Let me put it this way, it is modeled more on Bruce Lee movies than on Van Dame's or Schwarznegger's. In this system you can have a massive brute facing a lean and small guy with high endurance. If the latter is able to keep the brute out of distance long enough, he will tire him into innaction. That's the spirit."

I wasn't looking to create a combat monster. It was a definition of terms that caught me off-guard. If you're delineating between the ability to take a hit vs. the ability to last in a fight, I understand the difference. What's not taken into account, though, is that a fight that lasts a while won't necessarily be an advantage to the spry little guy over the slow bruiser. A tough guy w/ high intelligence can conserve energy and wait for his quicker opponent to get close enough to clobber, not chase him around in circles and wear himself out in the process. What's more, high endurance won't mean there's any power behind his punch. In effect, nothing gets accomplished as the tough guy's too slow to catch the enduring guy, and the enduring guy's too weak to cause bodily harm to the tough guy.

Granted, you haven't shown much and again, you haven't explained how combat works. This incongruity just popped out at me and needs further attention, either in this section or in the combat stage.

As for fractions, you didn't mention anything about choosing to round up some and truncate others. This is a pretty important thing to address at this point in your system's development and should be included in your write-up, not here in response to a review.

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Post originally by byline at 2005-12-18 11:53:48
Converted from Phorums BB System

Ash wrote: "I would also recommend thinking less about what other systems have and more about how your own system is going to function."

You responded: "My purpose is to focus on the way my system is going to function, but I loose nothing in learning with the good and bad points of other systems."

I don't have a problem with referencing other systems during development to see what works and what doesn't. I agree with Ash in one respect, though. Your references of what other systems do and how you're doing it differently (or similarly) gives the impression that you're seeking validation for your solution. You might consider toning it down a bit and bring up these points in replies to readers' posts, instead. Just a thought.

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Post originally by Sergio Mascarenhas at 2005-12-18 18:40:09
Converted from Phorums BB System

Yes, it's my game but other opinions are always welcome. I will have to think about it and be sure that what you say is food for thought. My idea is to move forward with the design until the point that there's a playable game with all pieces put in place. After testing it I will revise the whole thing and at that stage I'll come back to all comments made in the process.
Thanks for the feedback.

Sergio

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Post originally by Sergio Mascarenhas at 2005-12-18 18:43:20
Converted from Phorums BB System

Thanks for the suggestion and no, I'm not looking for validation. In any case, I was going to limit the comparisions in the coming columns because it becomes too hard to compare games in things other than attributes. I'll limit my comparisions to those systems that really influence me, the ones I like or where I find things I like.

Sergio

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Post originally by Sergio Mascarenhas at 2005-12-18 18:47:13
Converted from Phorums BB System

"I understand the difference. What's not taken into account, though, is that a fight that lasts a while won't necessarily be an advantage to the spry little guy over the slow bruiser. A tough guy w/ high intelligence can conserve energy and wait for his quicker opponent to get close enough to clobber, not chase him around in circles and wear himself out in the process. What's more, high endurance won't mean there's any power behind his punch. In effect, nothing gets accomplished as the tough guy's too slow to catch the enduring guy, and the enduring guy's too weak to cause bodily harm to the tough guy."

True. This is the type of variations that I hope to be able to model with the system.

"As for fractions, you didn't mention anything about choosing to round up some and truncate others. This is a pretty important thing to address at this point in your system's development and should be included in your write-up, not here in response to a review."

You are right. I didn't mention fractions before because it only makes sense to discuss it at the stage where I present the numbers associated with the stats and how they are defined.

Sergio