What if I want it? (counter point to many posts)

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Trentin C Bergeron at 2004-02-19 23:33:51
Converted from Phorums BB System

One point (or actually several clarifying questions for it) no one ever seems to mention or consider…

What if I WANT rules and a mature discussion for sex in my RPG?
What if I and my group want to play a game where some or all of these themes ARE a central role of the story/plot?
What if, in exploring those themes I want some of the same system elements you can find for almost every other aspect of roleplaying?

Certainly sexual content is not for everyone. Certainly RPG books about sex are not for everyone. But I am not sure the argument “no one uses sex in RPGs” is a valid one for not exploring the market or providing a resource for those who do. Perhaps we should/could/would if we had a good approach to it? Not tongue-in-cheek but well designed, thoughtful, or at least with a game designers hat on so we could tone down the porno naked “oh my god – boobies!” effect. Perhaps a little relaxed opening of the minds is in order here?

The argument “wankers put naked pictures in books to sell them” is also not a valid reason for not making a RPG supplement about sex. Breasts and beautiful women have been used to sell or garner interest in RPG supplements for some time and are especially more prevalent in the d20 market with the volume of books released. On that note – ALL MALE GAMERS ARE WANKERS. Not to mention the “all wanker” publishers marketing it. Lets not even mention the myriad other products that use sex to market them and many of them have NOTHING to do with sex or sexuality at all. If a fighter running a goblin through with a sword is a pertinent illustration for a combat chapter why not a naked fairy picture for a chapter about sexual magical creatures? Why is the violence more valid than the nudity?

Nothing gets a finely tuned debate in America humming like nudity or the discussion of sex. The double standards start flying, the guns come out, and every one and their brother is so sanctimonious you would mistake every citizen here for the Pope.

If we have a MULTI BILLION dollar porn industry here in the “land of purity” who exactly is buying/renting/using all this stuff? I cannot imagine the only OBVIOUS ten perverts in the country either make enough money for it all or have the time to buy/rent/use it all. Gamers don’t do sex in games? We watch porno later Saturday night but it NEVER comes up in the game? I just have a hard time believing people don’t game sex or are so offended by the creation of a RPG supplement for it. Is this along the same vein of “umm, I NEVER masturbate”? Uh huh. Sure you don’t.

Just my two cents…

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by MountainGoblin at 2004-02-20 01:42:22
Converted from Phorums BB System

A couple of thoughts, representing my opinion of the subject. Let's just think of sex as any other activity modeled in a role-playing game:

- Sexual situations are not inherently conflictual, unlike those situations that tend to have rules attached to them in most role-playing rulesets. In a normal, consensual, sexual situation there is little to overcome (aside from perhaps one's shyness or inhibitions). In addition, sexual situations are not necessarily linked to any particular obligation to perform... Sure, sex is better when it's really mind-blowing, but there is no - or should not be any - pressure for it to be really mind-blowing EVERY SINGLE TIME.

So, basically, what is the point of having a mechanical system that models something not inherently conflictual and where performance is rarely an issue? Sex could be handled by simply using a skill or attribute roll of some kind, just like any other non-conflict situation (craft rolls, performance rolls, creating art, etc.)... Or in some games, like HeroQuest, just use the basic resolution system that applies to every situation! Admittedly, this may seem cold, but who needs the detail and to what purpose?

- Some ELEMENTS of a sexual relationship do need a bit more detail: things like the chance of getting pregnant, the consequences of a pregnancy, various means of contraception or the chances of catching sexually transmitted diseases. Dealing tastefully (and effectively) with these subjects could be useful and might save the GM from just using GM fiat or deciding everything from a story point-of-view. However, much of this can already be handled by existing systems (the "disease" system is already in place in most RPGs).

- Sex is essentially an "individual" activity (well, between two individuals mostly, if you're lucky). Like many individual activities in the context of an RPG, focussing too much on them means that part of the group (since RPGs are generally a group activity) will be left out, with negative consequences. Witness systems like Shadowrun or Cyberpunk, where one character - the decker or netrunner - could slow the whole game because of their individual activities... Bringing out a whole book of "sex rules" risks creating the same kinds of situations the "Virtual Realities" created for Shadowrun: players waiting around while another not only hogs the spotlight, but does it for a long period of time...

In addition, sex is a private thing for many people, hence a certain reluctance to put it centre-stage, understandable from both the player point of view, and the character point of view. This is something which strikes me quite a lot in discussions about sex in RPGs. Few people seem to recognize that sex is a private, intimate, activity... Any "public" demonstration of sex tends to take on the characteristics of performance and exaggeration that one finds in X-rated movies, simply because there is an audience! It looses that aspect of vulnerability and emotion in favour of something more clinical and, interestingly enough, highly codified.

- Finally, a lot of what goes on in a sexual relationship is emotional, something which few games actually simulate... I can think of a couple of games that have mechanical elements that might influence this: Unknown Armies with the Madness Meters, Call of Cthulhu with SAN, Pendragon with virtues/vices and possibly the various advantage/disadvantage systems like GURPS. But much will depend on roleplaying.

So, what should a "serious" book on sex in RPGs focus on?

- Presenting a simple, rational way of resolving questions that might come up regarding sexual performance (highlighting elements like empathy rather than dexterity or constitution, in my opinion) in accordance with the usual task resolution system of the RPG system for which it is destined. Complexity is not needed.

- Dealing with diseases, contraception and pregnancy in a clear, rational way. Preferably avoiding silliness (especially when it comes to diseases).

- Give ways of integrating sexual encounters in the gaming group without actually slowing play to a crawl. This, to me, implies setting up ways to integrate sex off-stage, through private forums or single player sessions.

- Deal with player and GM issues regarding their limits and setting boundaries. After all, not everybody wants to hear about sex, or not every session...

- Presenting sexual values, beliefs and mores of other cultures and time periods rather than focussing on the modern view of sex prevalent in many of the RPG sex books, and spending less time dwelling on such things as S&M or other extreme forms of sex. Elaborate on the basics rather than heading straight for the "fashionable" stuff, in other words.

- Discuss roleplaying sexual thoughts and activities in an adult manner. Mainly, discussing how to present something private, intimate, that often makes us vulnerable, in public without divesting it of its emotional value in favour of focussing on performance and showmanship...

***

Sorry if this seemed long. I just wanted to put all this out once and for all... However, I would like to see more of a discussion of the fact that sex is essentially a private, intimate activity that looses something when performed in public, whether for real or in the roleplaying context.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Grop at 2004-02-20 02:30:09
Converted from Phorums BB System

<< If a fighter running a goblin through with a sword is a pertinent illustration for a combat chapter why not a naked fairy picture for a chapter about sexual magical creatures? Why is the violence more valid than the nudity? >>

This is an old paradox. Montaigne said, in his inimitable mixed Oc/Old French language: "We resolutely say killing, injuring, betraying, and about this we would hardly speak."

Btw, your point is true. Such material is useful, so long as someone asks for it. I do not.

GPB

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Ross Winn at 2004-02-22 05:10:58
Converted from Phorums BB System

thanks for your well written opinion, i don't agree with everything you have said, but thanks for paying attention.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Ross Winn at 2004-02-22 05:17:24
Converted from Phorums BB System

If you want all of these things I don't think you would be happy with any of the products to date, that was my main point.

I do not think that BOEF even comes into the ballpark.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by MountainGoblin at 2004-02-22 05:26:03
Converted from Phorums BB System

I'd be curious to know what we disagree on. In the aims of discussion, of course. :)

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Ross Winn at 2004-02-24 07:39:49
Converted from Phorums BB System

I think that many sexual situation are inherently conflicts. That my friend, is why they refer to it as the 'war between the sexes'...

best to you.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by MountainGoblin at 2004-02-25 14:07:26
Converted from Phorums BB System

Arguably, they are... But it is actually more the process of getting there rather thant the actual sex act that is conflictual, at least in my experience. Sure, sex is better with a dose of sexual tension, but ideally, both feel the tension and give in to it. So on the whole, the actual act is not all that important... Therefore, what a book about sex needs is better seduction rules, and ways of gaming sexual tension. In my mind, at least...

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Sylevus at 2004-07-28 09:36:47
Converted from Phorums BB System

Is there anything wrong with sex? No.
Is there anything wrong with publishing a book on sex and how it relates to your game system? No
Should sex be forced on you when you buy a game system? Absolutely not.

I quit supporting White Wolf because of this. I dont mind a book or two published for that particular reason.. to support the desires of players that want sex as part of their campaigns. But my campaign table is predominantly my wife and our two kids. So when I pull out the Exalted book on Sorcery I don't want a T&A crotch shot telling my son and daughter ... what?

Their books have become increasingly overt in their portrayal of sex, drugs, and controversial lifestyles. As I said above. Having these things in your game is well and fine, but that does not mean it should be the standard fare for every table. Its a shame because we really liked the premise of Exalted, but got to the point where our game dollar was being invested in crappier content. I loved the early supplements and the content. The players guide intro is an absolutely trashy bit of writing. Add that to the pics of orgies, sex, bondage, piercings, etc... At what point is it edgy and pushing the envelope, and what point just trash? I think they crossed that point.

So to your comments.... play the game the way you like and have fun... but be equitably respectful to other people and their sensitivities..

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Trentin C Bergeron at 2004-07-28 09:52:09
Converted from Phorums BB System

I agree with your sentiments here.

I am specifically ranting for the right to produce a sexual RPG supplement - like the Valar Project's book. I agree that a book should not just have naked pictures willy nilly for that "wanker" effect, although many RPG supplements/games do. At least without some sort of warning or label.

I think that games of a mature nature should at least have a warning on them. When my (now defunt) company was considering a mature game, we were going to shrink wrap it and place a warning on the outside of the shrink wrap. That way it could be marketed for adult gamers in a game store but keep the youngsters from paging through it.

I am against censorship or campaigns against publishing something because of the nature of it's content. However, I am not opposed to publishers having some courtesy for their market and allowing parents to restrict thier children from viewing said works.

It is unfortunate that WW did not at least warn consumers, however, they have been traditionally a mature gaming publisher. I would be careful of any of thier RPG products for children (even the S&S d20 stuff can have an edge...). Just do a good once through before handing off the book. I don't think they should start censoring thier artwork, but a warning that it contains mature artwork might be helpful.

You may be upset, but if you stand in the miniority (that most gamers appreciate the artwork and it in fact helps to sell the book), it may be a difficult battle to change the situation.

Ciao,