Shadowrun and Cyberpunk

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Post originally by Cirv at 2004-12-17 09:38:47
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I'm sure that you have good reasons for wanting to so tightly pigeonhole the cyberpunk genre, but be prepared that if I'm trying to get people to play Shadowrun I'm going to call it a cyberpunk game. I'll probably call it a cyberpunk game with fsking elves in (damn, I hate's me those immortal ones, for sure) but the first point of selling my game will be the cyberpunk.

My reason for saying it is that I don't want RPG.netters biting my head off whenever someone asks for a good game in the genre and I mention Shadowrun. Not only has it been a cyberpunk game but for many gamers, it is THE cyberpunk game. It's lasted a long time and that has to be in spite of its simply awful mechanics.

Genre is always a tool and I see the benefit of defining the genre when your game is trying to sell that genre with its very name. Likewise, I hope you'll always have time for my defintions.
Because a lot of the time, my cyberpunk has fsking elves in.

Anyway, good luck with your game. I'll definitely check it out.

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Post originally by Ross Winn at 2004-12-17 11:18:39
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You can, and I am not saying you can't. I am saying that for my purposes the definition excludes Shadowrun, and for that reason.

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Post originally by RJ Grady at 2004-12-17 11:19:57
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Whatever the facts may be, I think in the RPG world, Shadowrun is the gold standard of cyberpunk. Even with fsking elves. I always considered Cyberpunk 2020 a tepid game, and while it may have mechanical advantages over Shadowrun, that doesn't say much, and in this case, really doesn't. I wish I could speak in more specifics, but I've avoided Cyberpunk 2020 for more than a decade now and can't recall too much of what I disliked about it, unfortunately.

With all due respect to Bruce Sterling and his contributions, like many creative people, he sees his own genre in his own way. In many ways, cyberpunk was never more than a word, a meaningless label affixed to a jumble of things vaguely related to cybernetic technology and pleather jackets. Bruce Sterling's stuff can be more than a little literary surrealistic, which some authors would be happy to call outside the bounds of science-fiction. Even as a generic writer, he is not the sovereign authority on it.

Creative works do take on a life of their own.

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Post originally by Jethrow at 2004-12-19 22:42:34
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I hate to sound like the voice of moderation but it seems undeniable to me that Shadowrun contains strong elements of the cyberpunk genre. So while it may not be strictly a cyberpunk game, it is definitely a crossover to that genre. A fringe dweller, if you like. I don't think Shadowrun is a very good cyberpunk game (I don't think it is a very good game, actually) but I think it can claim to be a member of the cyberpunk family. On the flip side, no offence but few would consider Shadowrun to be the gold standard of cyberpunk roleplaying. I think it is the gold standard of bugger all, actually. Any other fence sitters see things this way?

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Post originally by Cirv at 2004-12-20 10:01:04
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Other fence sitters ;)

I think a lot of people will agree with you Jethrow.

You wouldn't compare SR novels to literary cyberpunk. But within the RPG world, SR is the game that took some key cyberpunk concepts, did some shake and bake with traditional fantasy, made a game of it and lasted.
SR has clunky mechanics and outwardly, a wacky setting. But it works so well as a game when you play it. That's why comparisons to cyberpunk in other mediums don't hold up well.

Any cyberpunk game that is released will likely be compared to SR. I don't know if Gold Standard is a good term to use. Depends what you use gold to mean :) It probably is the standard though.