"If you are winning"

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Post originally by Callan at 2005-05-23 03:27:24
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"If you are winning, you are not roleplaying; this is how it works in my head."

Well, that's a pretty easy one. If I'm playing paintball in real life and capture the flag, then I'm winning. If I'm roleplaying in a particular way and rescue the princess, then I'm winning.

I can only win if everyone at the table is jazzed about the idea of winning. If people hate the idea of winning, I can't win. That happens in the paintball game, if everyone just decides they hate the idea of winning.

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Post originally by Dan Hemmens at 2005-05-23 03:51:23
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And that's before we even start on /Rune/...

Any statement to the effect that "if X, then you are not roleplaying/it is not a roleplaying game" is almost by definition worthless. I've heard people say that /De Profundis/, /Everway/, and /D&D 3.5/ are "not roleplaying games" for one reason or another. Hell there was even the legendary "Ars Magica isn't an RPG because it has no equipment list" thread...

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Post originally by Jethrow at 2005-05-23 06:35:25
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As I said in my post to "The Trust Problem", as a GM I win every time the players want to come back for more.

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Post originally by cjh at 2005-05-23 08:56:08
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I can't think of a better way to put it. Ross is right, role-playing isn't about winning...it is about playing. As soon as you start thinking in terms of "winning" or "losing" then you've stopped role-playing and are very most likely playing a board or computer game.

Jethrow wrote:
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As I said in my post to "The Trust Problem", as a GM I win every time the players want to come back for more.

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Post originally by Ian Sokoliwski at 2005-05-23 18:20:34
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Jethrow wrote:
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As I said in my post to "The Trust Problem", as a GM I win every time the players want to come back for more.

You said it!

To expand on the point, I'm much happier when the players can make each other (and me, the GM) think on their feet, come up with creative solutions that the GM had not conceived of, and generally surprise everyone and make everybody laugh.

It may be kinda 'squooshy', but everybody is winning if everybody is having fun. In this GM's humble opinion :)

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Post originally by Jethrow at 2005-05-24 00:08:29
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Ian, that is exactly the kind of game I like, I seek, and quite often I manage to run. My players are all in their late 20s/early 30s, and most have professional or military backgrounds. I am constantly amazed and pleased with the ideas and solutions they come up with. I don't want to do all the work as GM, and I like it when my players give me food for thought.

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Post originally by Dan Hemmens at 2005-05-24 01:17:12
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On the other hand, I would note that a lot of what posters on this thread have been most pleased about have been creative *solutions* to problems, rather than creative ideas in general.

This does, in fact, imply a certain competitive spirit. The players are still, on some level, trying to "win" - they are coming up with plans in order to get things to go the way they want, and for this to work the GM has to be a *little* bit adversarial, because the challenges have to feel real.

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Post originally by Jethrow at 2005-05-24 02:21:38
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And there is the winning, right there again - in the creation of challenges, through the interplay of ideas between the GM and his players. Without viable challenges, most games fall into a steaming pile of something pungent, and then everyone loses.

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Post originally by Dan Hemmens at 2005-05-24 03:56:38
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Exactly, but that isn't quite the same as just "we're all winning if everybody has fun".

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Post originally by Ross Winn at 2005-05-24 07:07:02
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This is the exact point. Everyone is entertained is not a win in the adversarial world. From an adversarial point of view, to win someone has to lose.

There are no losers in roleplaying.

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Post originally by Callan at 2005-05-24 19:55:26
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No, to support adversarial positions, no one has to loose. Someone just has to win less than someone else.

So if I collect 1000 GP and you collect 2000 GP, you've won the most...your the winner. In a board game we'd scrap all the stuff we got when we next played...the only thing anyone would keep is the pride of winning. In roleplay you keep the 1000 GP on to the next game...you've just won less.

And again I'll say, if you don't enjoy the idea of people winning, then this isn't how one should roleplay. But for people who like it, it's shit loads more fun than any boardgame!

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Post originally by Toran at 2005-05-25 19:45:04
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No losers in role-playing?
You must not hang out at the local game store much.

Ha!

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Post originally by Jethrow at 2005-05-25 22:46:34
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Touche.

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Post originally by Ross Winn at 2005-05-26 05:19:19
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If you revile us, go away.