My gripe with retailers

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Post originally by d20 Publisher at 2003-10-15 19:19:20
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I'm sure you run your business just fine and I know most retailers do their research, but it seems to me that a lot of them have no clue about what's out there. Some retailers I have spoken to don't even visit RPG.net or EN World ever!

How do you run a business without keeping a track of what's new, what's hot, and what people want? These retailers don't know what's good and what's bad. They just keep ordering junk from the same companies they're used to and avoid ordering quality products from other companies.

I'd suggest to a retailer whose business is suffering to try to do more research and order at least one copy of anything that people online are talking about or giving good reviews for. Forget the rest. Then if that one copy (or whatever number ordered) sells, order another one or two. Repeat.

That's just my opinion though and I have no experience at running an RPG shop, so I could be very well wrong in my thinking. All I know is that any business, in whatever market, needs to do constantly research and keep up with the news.

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Post originally by Roland at 2003-10-16 06:14:15
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d20 Publisher wrote:
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I have no experience at running an RPG shop.

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Well, I'd never have guessed. :-)

If I would follow your advice I'd have to close shop within a year.

1. You need a good selection of the best selling games. If they're ripped apart in the internet reviews, that's not to pretty, but who really cares? People will usually buy their favourite/only RPG no matter what.

2. If I carried every game some guy on the net or casual customer raved about, I'd have a huge selection of unsellable stuff very soon.
Every once in a while, someone would tell me at the counter "Oh man, I've been searching this for weeks!" but the 10 bucks I'd make in the sale wouldn't amount to much compared to the 10000$ of slow moving stock sitting on my shelves.

If you want me to buy your latest D20 product, get in line after the 50-150 other D20 thingies my distributor is pitching me every month.
Or do something creative and/or convincing that makes me want to carry your stuff.

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Post originally by d20 Publisher at 2003-10-16 11:41:02
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And that's why some retailers have $10,000 worth of stock just sitting there. Face it. A lof of retailers (not specifically saying you) just don't do their research or keep up with the news. Some retailers have no idea who Monte Cook is, for example. These people NEVER visit RPG.net or EN World and try to run a business. That's like being a Wall Street analyst and not watching CNBC or picking up The Wall Street Journal. That's just a fact.

There are plenty of good products out there that are original and have a good theme or catchy cover, but don't get even one copy on the shelves because the retailer is focusing on ordering five or ten copies of their favorite publisher's newest piece of crap.

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Post originally by d20 Publisher at 2003-10-16 11:45:34
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Also, I'm not talking about a product that gets only a single review 'casual' review as you say by a gamer. I've noticed that thre are quite a few good creative high-quality RPG products that are overlooked despite getting numerous good reviews across the board.

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Post originally by Roland at 2003-10-16 12:42:57
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d20 Publisher wrote:
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There are plenty of good products out there that are original and have a good theme or catchy cover, but don't get even one copy on the shelves because the retailer is focusing on ordering five or ten copies of their favorite publisher's newest piece of crap.

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I like to sell good products which are original. I like to think I've done something good for the gaming community.

Also, I myself tend a bit toward the fringes of roleplaying products and think that many excellent products were produced by small publishers in the last years. You'll find them on the shelves of my personal library.
I try to have them all in the shop.

You will not find them on 95% of my customers shelves. The reason is simple. My customers do not want them, no matter the quality.
I can convince some people to buy them, because my customers know I know my games. I can convince some people to buy them with demo games and whatnot.
But the majority of gamers want to buy my favourite publishers piece of crap. You know why he's my favoutite publisher? His crap sells.

And that's the bottom line. Rent, health insurance, pension fund, wages.

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Post originally by d20 Publisher at 2003-10-16 21:46:29
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Well, it sounds like you are doing something right but I'm talking about other retailers who seem to be doing things wrong. You sound like you are a gamer and you look at quality stuff. That's good.

However, there ARE a lot of retailers who are: a) not playing games or even buying books for themselves b) not keeping up on the news or visiting web-sites and c) just plain buying the wrong products.

When I go into a store and can't find a copy of Lords of the Night: Vampires (***** ratings) or Magical Medieval Society (**** ratings) or Hamlet of Thumble (**** ratings) or Dynasties & Demagogues (**** ratings), then I know they're not giving good smaller d20 titles a fair chance.

These store owners can only blame themselves for piling up crap that just never moves and continue to buy more while ignoring good stuff.

Speaking as a customer too I just find it hard to find stuff I would be interested in all that pile of garbage. Honestly I think retailers should just all discount pre-2003 stuff at 50% or higher and look forward to choosing only quality items.

Especially with the release of 3.5, the pre-3.5 doesn't seem to be moving at all, does it?

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Post originally by Roland at 2003-10-17 04:32:55
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d20 Publisher wrote:
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When I go into a store and can't find a copy of Lords of the Night: Vampires (***** ratings) or Magical Medieval Society (**** ratings) or Hamlet of Thumble (**** ratings) or Dynasties & Demagogues (**** ratings), then I know they're not giving good smaller d20 titles a fair chance.

.... and look forward to choosing only quality items.
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The problem with this is a simple one. Qualitiy doesn't sell on its own.

Honestly, what percentage of D20 players will find the four books you mentioned useful?

Dynaties and Demagogues is an excellent book, in fact Penumbra is one of the best product lines for D20. But Dynaties and Demagogues appeals mainly to games who want to give their D20 game a new direction with the themes and rules presented.
Many gamers are content the way they play.

Lords of the Night: Vampires may be the best portrayal of a vampires for D20, complete with all the crunchy bits you could wish for.
But how many gamers want to play a group of vampires in their D20 game?

Hamlet of Thumble. Nice adventure, good material for halfling enthusiasts.
But adventures don't sell well. Adventures from small publishers sell even worse. Period

Magical Medieval Society I haven't seen yet, so I can't make a very qualified comment, but the cover text "With informative text, generation systems, worksheets, and appendices.[...]A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe puts the wealth and depth of European demographics in your hands" does not bode well for me.

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Post originally by d20 Publisher at 2003-10-17 09:02:39
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All I'm saying is why not order just one or two copies of each of these quality titles and see if they sell? If they do, order another one. Repeat. I am certainly not saying these are items you should order 5 copies each of. Just one or two and see where it goes. That's all.

It sounds like you are knowledgeable and obviously not one of the retailers I'm speaking of simply by being here on RPG.net on a regular or semi-regular basis and keeping up with things. At least you are familiar with Lords of the Night, Dynasties & Demagogues, etc.

BUT I know a lot of retailers who are like this and they certainly don't do the above (visit RPG.net or bother to order ANY quality items). Have you ordered at least one copy of each of these d20 prodcuts?

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Post originally by d20 Publisher at 2003-10-17 09:17:37
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Quote:

"Magical Medieval Society I haven't seen yet, so I can't make a very qualified comment, but the cover text "With informative text, generation systems, worksheets, and appendices.[...]A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe puts the wealth and depth of European demographics in your hands" does not bode well for me."

I understand that. The cover is not sexy and it doesn't have appeal to a lot of gamers. BUT it has been selling very well and got a lot of exposure on Monte Cook's Web site. It was a really good seller at GEN CON this year. So people do want to buy it. I think you should at least try to carry this title. Are you?

By the way, I think a lot of people buy Lords of the Night to learn about vampires, not necessarily because they're going to be playing them. As you know, it's the best out there right now for vampires. The writing is excellent and the art is very good, too. With all those White Wolf enthusiasts, I'm sure you could sell at least a few copies of this book at any store.

Hamlet of Thumble has a lot more stuff like material for players for about half of its product. It's pretty innovative.

Same goes for Dynasties and Demagogues. People don't necessarily buy things because they're going to use them. They buy stuff because they want to read about the topic. Do you think your customers actually use more than half the stuff they buy? I buy a lot of d20 and other systems and I only use about 10-20% of it.

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Post originally by Roland at 2003-10-17 14:13:07
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d20 Publisher wrote:
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Have you ordered at least one copy of each of these d20 prodcuts?
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No. I have the Penumbra softcover sourcebooks in stock, the hardcovers are less cost effective, I only buy them once in a while. Lords of the Night look somewhat promising, but it's a budget decision for me. With the money I spend on Lords of the Night and similar (meaning not that fast selling) items, I can purchase stock with a much higher turnover rate, which means more profit.

If I were located in the USA I would at least give it a try, but D20 isn't as bis in europe as it is in the US.

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Post originally by Jethrow at 2003-11-12 04:16:05
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Just say no. Don't do it. Please.

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Post originally by Lloyd Brown at 2004-01-15 20:15:06
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Hi there.

Let me respond to several paraphrased statements you've made in different posts.

Q."Why not buy one of each D20 product out there?"
A. Do you know how many that is? I'd estimate 1000+ in 2003. With retail prices ranging from $8 to $50, that's at least $25,000 in inventory. A strong store that saves money for an intentional inventory growth can handle a 5-10k annual inventory increase. A store that blindly spends that much money without an increase in sales goes out of business. Maybe a handful of game stores in the country can afford to do that.

Q."How do you run a business without keeping track of what's hot, etc. on RPGnet."
A. When you're online, it's easy to think that everyone else is, too. Not all of my customers read RPGnet. They know about what I show them on the shelves and what is advertised in Game Trade Magazine, since I leave a copy on every table in the game room.

I personally keep up by checking the Game Industry Network. If there's something exceptional here, I hear about it there from 400 or so retailers, manufacturers and distributors. If fixtures go on sale somewhere, I hear about it. Manufacturer promotion, I know it within half an hour of the executive decision. New publishing technology? I saw that one. Every distributor's new releases, every day, too. I also read Comics & Games Retailer every month.

Q. "Why not just get one, then restock if it sells?"
A. It's less risky to just get what other stores are reporting as popular, either in C&GR or the on the GIN on Delphi. Sure, I miss out on a few sales before the product gets hot, but that saves me from losing my shirt on garbage that didn't sell.

Q. "So how do I get my new D20 product on your shelf?"
A. Sigh. Sadly, you probably won't. Is it written by a person whose name I recognize? Is it published by a company whose previous products I respect? Is it a product with some potential longevity (that is, no adventures or topics covered 3 times already)? Is it priced comparable to other products with the same characteristics--page count, production quality, graphic design (you did research all of that before you set the price, right)? Did you effectively market this product to consumers? Do you have a retailer locator on your website that lists my store? Did you send me a sell sheet on your product?

Every positive answer gets you a step closer to the shelf.

Feel free to look me up for a personal phone call. I don't know the local laws, so I won't post the number here. Google can find me in about .26 seconds, though. ;-)


Lloyd Brown
War Dogs Game Center
Jacksonville FL