The nail...

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Guy McLimore at 2000-02-15 16:34:33
Converted from Phorums BB System

You know, the nail? The one you keep hitting on the head...?

As usual, your column cuts to the heart of a matter that has been a considerable source of discussion in the game industry of late. As you point out, there are two ways of looking at it (and a myriad of others -- a spectrum of opinion) and both are valid and workable from a certain point of view.

Being dogmatic about anything usually isn't the smartest course, and even your polarities shown in this column seem to understand that -- nice touch. Moderation in everything -- especially moderation in moderation. There are times to be extreme, too.

Nice going.

Guy McLimore / guymc@evansville.net
MicroTactix Games
http://www.microtactix.com

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2000-02-22 16:14:51
Converted from Phorums BB System

The idea is not to actually produce products that satisfy the customers. If this were done, the customers would have no further need to buy more products. The idea is to sell products, and thusly, it behooves the retailer/author/game designer/hack to convince the purchaser that his/her best interests are paramount to the retailer, without actually meaning it. This is why AEG will do what they can to bolster their image, without actually having any interest in producing quality products (other than the need to meet the lowest level of acceptable standards).

When TSR split up their classes into separate books (wizard, priest, fighter handbooks, etc.) hobbyists were up in arms. It has subsequently become acceptable practice, and is literally designed into L5R. Shopkeepers now are deliberately vague about what their products are actually about, in the name of selling more product. As the patrons of these stores have become more and more desperate for new offerings, this practice is allowed to continue, even flourish. The monopolization of the game industry into one large monolith, complete with the coersive power of litigation such unity of size allows, only serves to excaberate the situation.

This situation is likely to only get worse - a lot worse - before it gets better, if it ever does. So, a game system that might have cost $20-$40 twenty years ago costs upwards of $300 or more now, and has a significantly shorter life expectancy. All of this serves the game designers at the expense of the players.

My take on the situation, for what it's worth.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Meera Barry at 2000-02-22 19:31:57
Converted from Phorums BB System

I thought the rallying cry was "gourmet choice," rather than "cheap buffet." If I don't want short-sighted left-handed hemophiliac half-dwarven assassins in my campaigns, I don't have to buy the book.



I know, I know... if only 'twere true. Instead, I'm faced with the choice of buying this supplement with its 60+ pages I'm Not Interested In, or buying just the main book and not getting enough information to run the campaign.

How much would the old DMG (AD&D classic1st Ed.) go for if it'd been published in these days? Why don't we have anything equivalent (with, maybe, the exception of "Aria"?)

I'm kind of disappointed. We wandered around for an hour at the local gaming store last weekend. We had money to spend, but nothing to buy, because I wasn't going to enslave myself to all the pertinent books of a system. ("I would have bought this, but it looks like I need these three books to use this." "Well, can't you port it?" "Yeah, probably, but if this book is any good, then I might want the others to help explain it." "So it's buy three books or none?" "Looks like.")



Mb
We give away the system. We sell the accessories. We make very little money.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Wyvern at 2000-02-24 22:07:46
Converted from Phorums BB System

I think Dr. Cruel and Ms. Barry should read the Industry Insider column "Blowing Out the Nostalgia Candle" before going off about how mercenary gaming companies are these days.

I hear you ask: But wasn't that column written by the Dreaded John Wick?

Yes, as a matter of fact, it is. So?

I read Mr. Wick's Review Policy in Gaming Outpost. I also read Justin Bacon's rebuttal, which I found to be very funny and on-the-mark. I also remember when Mr. Wick and his groupies jumped all over James M for expressing a negative opinion about 7th Sea. I've come to the conclusion that Mr. Wick is much too full of himself.

However, that doesn't change the fact that in this particular case, he happens to have a good point. He also presents a whole slew of objective facts to back it up.

There are a few additional comments I'd like to add to the issue, which it seems that nobody else has considered.

First, what is one of the measures commonly used to judge whether a game system is still "alive" or not? Whether the company continues to publish new supplements for that game.

But wait a moment. If we publish a "complete" game in a single book, then what do we need supplements for? Adventures, maybe, but most people will write their own adventures instead of using the published ones as often as not. And adventures make up only a small part (maybe even a minority) of all the supplements released for a given system.

So we have a paradox: if a game is to be considered current, the company has to produce supplements, but when it does, it's accused of trying to squeeze more money out of poor gamers.

My second point is related to the first. There is constant talk about how gaming companies are trying to sell more books, so they can make more money, as if that were somehow evil. We wouldn't make the same complaint about a mainstream publishing company. You wouldn't stop buying books out of principle just because the company is trying to make money off of you. You wouldn't accuse your favorite author of being greedy because he kept writing new books.

If you don't like the way gaming companies do business, you don't have to buy from them. There are plenty of decent systems available for free on the Internet. But don't buy the books and then whine about how much you paid for them and how greedy and monolithic the gaming industry is.

Third, if a company *did* publish all of their rules in one book, it would be about twice as thick, and cost twice as much, and nobody would buy it (because gamebooks cost too much already, right?). As it is, you get the core rulebook, and if you like it enough to buy the supplements with more detailed rules, you can. And if you don't want to, you can make up your own rules, or just try a different system. But at least you didn't spend twice as much money for rules you're never going to use.

Yes, there are cases in which I wish the core rulebook had been more complete. I wish the Fading Suns rulebook had had stats for Shantor and Gannok, for instance. And in a perfect world, it would have. But please, for the luvva mike, let's not get all nostalgic. I haven't been in gaming long enough to remember the "good old days", but I've seen some of the older games, and frankly, they're pretty ugly. Appearance isn't everything, of course, but would *you* buy a new game with a cover a that looks like it came off of a 1930's pulp sci-fi magazine and line illustrations that look like a high-school art project? Besides, a game is an evolving entity. You don't really expect it to be perfect on the first try, do you?

"Is making money the end-all be-all of a company? Or is having a dream more important?"
From what I've heard about the salaries of game writers, most of them aren't in it for the money. But they do have to make *some* money to stay solvent so that they can keep publishing their dream. Otherwise they might as well go find other jobs, and give their game away for free on the Internet. But then how would they find the time to write it?

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2000-02-25 07:54:54
Converted from Phorums BB System

Let's not wax nostalgic, then. Eat your gruel and like it, you burakunin. If you don't like our stuff, then stuff it. You don't have to buy it if you don't want to.

Yeah, I've heard it all before. I can always play the old, 'inferior' games - right? Only all the rights to that 'old stuff' has been bought up by the same folks that mass produce the new tripe. Furthermore, they've taken care to organize all the players into clubs that promote the new products. That's why big boys like Hasbro are suddenly interested in us little ol' roleplayers.

If I bought a book from Stephen King (in shrink wrap!), and found out that - as a marketing gimmick - he had decided to conveniently leave out the ending to promote an upcoming 'supplement', I'd be a bit miffed. If he went to the trouble of buying out every other fiction writer in the industry, and used litigation to lock new ones from entering, I'd be outraged. How about if he decided to split his novels up into chapter-sized 'booklets', each costing the price of one of his earlier works, some of which were not even authored by him?

(Suddenly, I am gripped with fear and loathing... wondering if Stevie and his publisher friends are reading this...)

There's a reason why we talk about the 'good old days'. It's because the present practices, taken out of their historical context, are impossible to judge properly. If I had my car stolen, I wouldn't "wax nostalgic" by producing a bill of sale to prove my ownership. The hobby was once fun, and now is a means of generating revenue. I could once afford to play with my friends for a few bucks, and now have to shell out hundreds just for credibility. Gaming was once wide open for tinkering and informal modification; now the Gygaxian "One True Wayism" is irreproachable canon, and the lawyers are out hunting for intellectual property thieves. Gaming was once about adventuring, and has turned into a collecting business and a trivia contest.

And if I don't want to play solitaire, I've got to lump it. And I'm not happy about it. Sorry.

Just me.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Wyvern at 2000-02-26 21:05:04
Converted from Phorums BB System

I think you missed my point. Maybe I tried to make too many points at once, and buried the main one. It doesn't sound like you've read the article I mentioned, or if you have, you must have disregarded it.

>There's a reason why we talk about the 'good old days'. It's because the present
>practices, taken out of their historical context, are impossible to judge properly.

That's exactly what I'm talking about: historical context. The 'good old days' were not all peaches and cream. Of course, since I'm a relative newcomer to the gaming scene, I'm relying on Mr. Wick's evidence, but I have no reason to believe that he made it all up out of thin air.

>I could once afford to play with my friends for a few bucks, and now have to shell out
>hundreds just for credibility.

The value of money is not what it used to be. If Wick's figures are correct, that AD&D book you bought for $10 in 1977 would cost you $27 now -- which is about what their new core rulebooks are selling for (actually, the 3rd edition is supposed to retail for under$20!), and they've got much better artwork and presentation.

And did you get a complete game for your money? If it's AD&D you're talking about, the answer is no. You had to buy the Player's Handbook, and the DM's Guide, and the Monster Manual, just like you do now. So what's changed?

What game *are* you talking about, anyway? You didn't provide a single specific example of a game which is guilty of the accusations you made, except for L5R, which I must plead ignorance of. Enlighten me, please. What exactly have they done that you consider so heinous?

>Gaming was once wide open for tinkering and informal modification; now the
>Gygaxian "One True Wayism" is irreproachable canon, and the lawyers are out
>hunting for intellectual property thieves.

What are you talking about? With the advent of the Internet, there's more material avialable to gamers than ever before. You want "tinkering and informal modification"? There are hundreds of fan sites out there, ranging in quality from the awful to the sublime. WotC has even appointed some of them as "official sites" for their OOP settings. I plugged "AD&D house rules" into Lycos and came up with 195 hits! "Shadowrun house rules" scores 115. Even "Fading Suns house rules" comes up with 36. Of course, some of these are bound to be false trails or even dead links, but the point is that the material is out there, you just have to know where to find it.

>And if I don't want to play solitaire, I've got to lump it.

Sez who? As I mentioned already, there are plenty of free games available, and some of them are comparable in quality to anything published. Here's a list of free games which have impressed me with their presentation and creativity. (Caveat: I haven't playtested any of these games, so I don't know how well the mechanics work. But they're free, so if you try them and don't like them, you haven't lost anything but time.)

Forgotten Futures is a shareware steampunk game. The rules can be found at http://www.ffutures.demon.co.uk/rules.htm, and there are several settings available for download at http://www.forgottenfutures.com/index.html.

The Window (http://www.mimgames.com/window/) is a rules-light generic system which is popular enough to have its own forum at WebRPG. It's not a dead forum either; when I checked just now there were 341 posts (whereas L5R had only 282).

Black-Gate Publishing has created two games reminiscent of the World of Darkness: Legacy (http://www.black-gate.com/legacy/), which features Highlander-style immortals, and Warlock (http://www.black-gate.com/warlock/), which features mages. (For some reason, when I checked on the Legacy site just now, the pages wouldn't load properly; much of the text towards the end was blanked out, but when I saved the file to my hard-drive, it appeared just fine.)

Enchanted Worlds (www.enchatedworlds.com) is a new game that was recently reveiwed on RPG net. I haven't taken a good look at it yet, but the reviewer gave it a rating of 3/4.

Coming back to my other points: What do you expect from the companies, exactly? Should they produce a set of "core" rules, followed by supplements to expand on the core rules (and introduce new ones they just now thought of), and get lambasted for trying to cheat us out of our money? Or should they put ALL the rules in one honking big, expensive rulebook, and then get lambasted for not "supporting" their product? You can't have it both ways. And you can't please all of the people all of the time. Obviously, they've failed to please you, but they must be pleasing somebody, because they still manage to sell books. And DON'T tell me that people only buy the books because there's nothing else available, because as I've just pointed out, that's patently untrue.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2000-02-27 00:31:37
Converted from Phorums BB System

(…)

Some points:

1) I've read the article. Obviously, I disagree with it.

The 'evil statement' is

"Games are too expensive. They're not as good as they used to be and they cost too much. I remember
when games were inexpensive, had more material and were better designed. When are gaming
companies going to stop cheating the public out of its money, and when is the public going to wise up
about gaming companies?"

Games are not too expensive. People buy them. My complaint is that what once was a quaint hobby is now a cash-grubbing industry. What was once a cheap, friendly hobby is now based around owning and absorbing ever more expensive and numerous 'supplements', which contain critical elements toward playing the core game.

Are all new gaming offerings like this? No… The GURPS series of source books are excellent add-ons for other campaigns, and are usually fairly complete on summarizing their themes. But this isn't the trend. Thus, in regards the card games, one must keep up with all the new issues to be competitive at tournaments. To play in an AD&D game at a convention, one must be in the RPGA. The new system has a book for each character type, and for 'kits'… Vampire has a book for each 'clan' of vampire, as does Werewolf for werewolves… Miniatures games are now the rage, calling for hundreds of dollars in expenditures just to have a decent force…

When I buy a computer game, everything I need to play it is in the box, besides the computer. This is not so for L5R, where I have had to purchase several components to get a decent map of the region (I'm on my third purchase, the GM Pack…), and still have no rules on how 'taint' is supposed to be handled. One would presume that such a crucial element would be in the core book, at least in some cursory fashion…

CoC was a complete game. All that one really needed was the core book, and access to newspapers from the 20's The rules worked fine (Sanity drops were listed with each creature and spell. Sanity rolls were made against the value that remained, when called for). AD&D needed both the PH and the DMG to play (which many found cheesy at the time), but a GM screen had all the tables, and could be had very cheaply (about $5). One could play in Greyhawk and, later, the Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance settings, but the game was designed to allow people to make their own worlds.

L5R has a setting. One. You play in it. Cards, miniatures rules, and the RPG all have tie-ins to it. Buy into one, and you are encouraged to buy into the rest. One could spend upwards of $1000 purchasing all the stuff for this game, and STILL be in the dark about important elements of the setting.

In regards to the Internet sites, you are correct in saying that many folks are posting important stuff. This material is virtually critical in piecing together the mass of disconnected data needed to get any idea as to what is going on in the world of Rokugan. I've also communicated with people who run these sites, who are worried about posting maps, rules, etc. on the Internet, for fear of being sanctioned for "intellectual theft". This reminds me of the days when Judge's Guild was hounded out of business by TSR. The fact is that, so long as this 'spontaneous participation' spurs increased sales, it will be permitted. That's the only - ONLY - reason it's allowed. For the moment.

What do I expect? Exactly what is happening. If Mr. Wick has a bit of Wal-Mart savvy, he'll do the same for the 'Gaijin' Rokugan rules… It's not his fault that he wants to pay his rent, or become rich if possible. His 'success' will be copied, of course. In fact, he is smartly copying the successful 'marketing gimmick' strategy pioneered by WotC that has (I repeat) gotten big guns like Hasbro interested. Money will drive the behavior of the creative people in this field, as the amateur nature of gaming becomes increasingly professionallized - and exclusive…

What do I want? Give me, first, something I can play - something that, once I have a certain number of books (three, maybe?) will be complete. Tell me what these books are. Do not lie (please) about what your books are about, especially for us trusting fools who buy said sight unseen (as in MGtR). I have $40 of useless 'travelogues', thinking that they were write-ups on a vaguely described campaign world. Make them open-ended enough to allow the GM to make his own world.

Or not. And you're right… There is something else available. I'm trying out "Sengoku". Thanks for that little extra nudge.

Which means, of course, that I now own about $300 of useless paper. But then, what do I know, anyway? I'm…

- Just Another "Munchkin"

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Wyvern at 2000-02-28 02:27:38
Converted from Phorums BB System

I have no interest in prolonging this debate any further, and I have nothing more really to add anyway, but I do think you deserve a response. You make some good points. Now I have a better idea, at least, of exactly where you're coming from.

A few miscellaneous comments:

>Thus, in regards the card games, one must keep up with all the new issues to be
>competitive at tournaments.
I don't play CCG's so this really isn't an issue for me. I can see how it would be annoying to have to keep buying more cards, but on the other hand, for some people that's half the fun.

>To play in an AD&D game at a convention, one must be in the RPGA.
I didn't know that. I agree, that stinks.

>Miniatures games are now the rage, calling for hundreds of dollars in expenditures
>just to have a decent force…
Well, miniatures games have been around since long before RPGs, so I wouldn't say this is relevant to the issue of whether gaming is going downhill.

>When I buy a computer game, everything I need to play it is in the box,
Unless the company releases it without proper playtesting, so that it requires half a dozen patches to work properly :P

>besides the computer. This is not so for L5R, where I have had to purchase several
>components to get a decent map of the region (I'm on my third purchase, the GM
>Pack…), and still have no rules on how 'taint' is supposed to be handled.
I asked for a specific example, and you gave me one. Thank you.

>The new system has a book for each character type, and for 'kits'… Vampire has a
>book for each 'clan' of vampire, as does Werewolf for werewolves…
My inclination is to ignore those books and just improvise from the material in the core rulebook. If they didn't publish them, though, you can bet that there would be people asking for them. If you really like a particular character type, you might want to get the book for it, but you don't need them all. Chances are, none of the kits will exactly fit your character concept anyway.

>AD&D needed both the PH and the DMG to play (which many found cheesy at the
>time), but a GM screen had all the tables, and could be had very cheaply (about $5).
I wouldn't consider $5 for a piece of cardboard "cheap", especially when you factor in the difference in prices between then and now. And you forgot about the Monster Manual. My first RPG (not counting Fighting Fantasies) was the Basic D&D box set, which had complete rules, monster listings, and two pages on dungeon creation, all in one slim booklet. I wish AD&D could do that. (Now I'm starting to sound like you... :P )

>One could play in Greyhawk and, later, the Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance
>settings, but the game was designed to allow people to make their own worlds.
>L5R has a setting. One.
Well, you can always make up your own setting, but since I know from personal experience how much work that is, I understand why you would rather use the published setting.

>I've also communicated with people who run these sites, who are worried about
>posting maps, rules, etc. on the Internet, for fear of being sanctioned for "intellectual
>theft". This reminds me of the days when Judge's Guild was hounded out of business
>by TSR.
Do you happen to know when *was* the last time a gaming company sued someone for "intellectual theft"? The impression I've gotten is that TSR has become much more open-handed in this regard since they were absorbed by WotC. Maybe AEG is different. I've seen maps, background material and other stuff lifted wholesale from Earthdawn and posted on the internet (of course, that's an OOP game, so I guess they're not so concerned about losing sales). The only White-Wolf game I own is Mage, but I could piece together a Bastet character based solely on material available on the internet. Even if a company wanted to close down all sites with material related to their game, the time and legal expense required would far outweigh any possible benefits.

>as the amateur nature of gaming becomes increasingly professionallized - and
>exclusive…
This is the statement I disagree with most. I don't see gaming becoming increasingly exclusive. Anybody with time and imagination can create his own game system, if he really wants to. You may not be able to make any money that way, but if you're making money doing it, then by definition you're not an amateur. I guess what I'm trying to say is, you don't have to do things the way the big companies want you to.

>What do I want? Give me, first, something I can play - something that, once I have a
>certain number of books (three, maybe?) will be complete.
Therein lies the problem. It really depends on your definition of "complete". Take Shadowrun for example. The Shadowrun core rules come in one book. If you want to play a rigger, however, you'll need the rigger book. If you want to play a decker, you'll need the decker book. If you want to play a magically-active character, you'll need the magic book. Want more flexible character creation, or suggestions for different campaign types? Get the Shadowrun Companion. Does that mean that the game isn't "complete" without all these books? Well, if you limit yourself to one character type, you can get by with only two books. If you want more options, you buy more books. It's the same with just about every game I can think of. Even GURPS.

Well, I've gone on much longer than I intended to (again). No response is necessary, unless you want to respond, in which case feel free. (I don't want you to think I'm just trying to get the last word. ;) )

Cheers,

Wyvern

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Aleksander Veiltender at 2000-02-29 15:08:51
Converted from Phorums BB System

I'm sorry, I'm sort of cluless here. I didn't read the John Wick article. But I like John Wick's work. I like L5R and I really like 7th Sea. Is AEG money grubbing? Maybe. But I didn't get into RPGs to save money. If I want a cheap hobby I can go back to writing my fantasy stories. (Which by the way, it seems I'm doing. I've got $200 in my pocket, and little enough I want to spend it on. This amazes me because not more than a year ago, I was a dedicated GURPSer.) I like the individual books and expansions. I buy them all faithfully like a good little consumer should.

All I'm trying to say is I don't really think rampant consumerism is a sign of the death of our noble hobby. More like to be a sign of the death of capitalism.

By the way, what's wrong with the map in the main L5R rulebook, anyway?

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Justin Bacon at 2000-03-13 00:44:33
Converted from Phorums BB System



Dr. Cruel wrote:
-------------------------------
This situation is likely to only get worse - a lot worse - before it gets better, if it ever does. So, a game system that might have cost $20-$40 twenty years ago costs
upwards of $300 or more now, and has a significantly shorter life expectancy. All of this serves the game designers at the expense of the players.
-------------------------------

This always seems like a cop-out to me. The fact that a game produces 10,000 pages of material and then charges 10x as much for that material as they used to charge for 1,000 pages of material doesn't seem like a *bad* thing to me. (Adjust for marketplace inflation.)

Of course if the 10,000 pages is just a padded filler with no value added, then you've got a problem. But I don't think there are really that many games like that.

Justin Bacon
triad@prairie.lakes.com

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2000-03-13 08:06:41
Converted from Phorums BB System

Whether this sort of practice is ethical or not is quite irrelevant. This is the trend. The gaming hobby, in all its many various and sundry forms, has become proffesionalized. It is "the gaming industry". That means that people are paying their rent with the proceeds. As people tend to wish larer homes, bigger cars, trips, etc., the cost of gaming will correspondingly increase. As people would prefer an easy job, and content is difficult to research, write, etc. expect the level of content to decrease.

Complex, low-run, extensively researched games are out. "Pokemon" is in. If Mr. Wick can crank out salable books with oversized page margins, and fill most of what remains with easily cranked out prose, he will most certainly do so. If linking his merchandise lines together is a successful tactic, in such a way as to generate revenue by cross referencing important data and rules in differing lines, expect this to occur. Revenue generation, by whatever means, is the goal rewarded and appreciated. His family will thank him, his creditors will thank him and, apparently, even Hasbro will offer a nod. Mr. Wick will cash his paycheck, feel good in the morning, and to the infernal regions with all these amateur naysayers of old. Such is the new direction of this "gaming industry".

In the academic front, I wished to arrive at a statistic as to the number of man-hours needed to farm a medieval rice paddy yearly, and the expected output (about 1000-2000 man-hours, and about 1-4 tons, per hectare). The professor who answered me gave me the cite in his book where the data could be found. In effect, my answer would cost me a cool $35.

Welcome to our Brave New World, kids.

-D.C.

P.S. If further information related to Oriental medieval farming practices is required by anyone amongst the general gaming public, feel free to drop me a line. For those of a more mercenary persuasion, who feel my offer of free info ought to be quashed in the name of the "greater gaming good", I will be more than happy to forward several "pay as you go" expert professionals, with significantly better qualifications that yours truly.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2000-03-13 08:26:41
Converted from Phorums BB System

1) It is in black and white. Many of the "rivers" are actually clan borders, which one finds out in the color map included in the "City of Lies" boxed set ($30).

2) There is a missing section running down the middle. The capital of the empire happens to be located in this region, and several cities are missing (Doji castle, for one).

3) There are inaccuracies in the placement of cities, in that they "move" from one map to the next (like the castles of the Dragon clan holdings). The movement is minor, and this is a piddling complaint, but it is annoying.

4) There are locations left totally unexplained (Spider Island?). The problem with this is that most certainly these areas will be detailed in future supplements, which will be so connected with the storyline, as to ensure that present games will by necessity diverge from it. An old practice, yet very annoying.

The first two complaints are the worse. All the more so, because I had to search for the workable version. (By the way - the GM pack does NOT have a map of Rokugan. It does have a map of 'Humility's Lesson', which contains a bridged road not included in the strategic map. But I digress.)

Is this helpful?

-D.C.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Steve Dempsey at 2000-03-16 03:46:06
Converted from Phorums BB System

Justin Bacon wrote:
-------------------------------
Dr. Cruel wrote:
-------------------------------
This situation is likely to only get worse - a lot worse - before it gets better, if it ever does. So, a game system that might have cost $20-$40 twenty years ago costs upwards of $300 or more now, and has a significantly shorter life expectancy. All of this serves the game designers at the expense of the players.
-------------------------------
Of course if the 10,000 pages is just a padded filler with no value added, then you've got a problem. But I don't think there are really that many games like that.
-------------------------------

Ok, what about the fact that WW repeat their rules set in every version of the game. Instead of just putting the extra Mage, Werewolf or Vampire rules out as supplements to a slim core rules volume, they repeat everything.

In the guise of flavour we have some rather dodgy fiction taking up a large chunk at the front of the book, the black and white artwork is often very indistinct and we have to pay for 400 uninspired quotes from unknown Goth bands who are about as scary as Meatloaf.

GB Steve

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2000-03-16 09:37:20
Converted from Phorums BB System

... which, of course, after all, is the point. And don't get me started with those White Wolf folks... At least Mr. Wick is apolitical.

"Doc" Cruel

Oh, by the way. Gaia is the Wyrm.

(That is: Since Nature, as such, is the enemy of Man, i.e. does not conform to his wishes, tends to lend support to concepts such as mortality, illness, 'chaos', etc., it stands to reason that it is also the operative essense of that which we understand as 'evil', as such. It is through the Weaving, i.e. technology and thought over natural process, base emotionalism and primitive sentiment, that we can transcend our intrinsic barbarism and pass on to an Age of Pure Reason. Hail Pentex. And so on.

Take that, you Gothic neo-Luddite neanderthals.)

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Bob King at 2000-03-16 16:06:37
Converted from Phorums BB System

"When TSR split up their classes into separate books (wizard, priest, fighter handbooks, etc.) hobbyists were up in arms. It has subsequently
become acceptable practice, and is literally designed into L5R. Shopkeepers now are deliberately vague about what their products are actually
about, in the name of selling more product. As the patrons of these stores have become more and more desperate for new offerings, this practice
is allowed to continue, even flourish. The monopolization of the game industry into one large monolith, complete with the coersive power of
litigation such unity of size allows, only serves to excaberate the situation. "

Huh? Like TSR invented that with those books! Anyone remember Traveller? The original D&D boxed set, which had 3 (or was it 4) suppliments? Just about every game I have ever *seen* has suppliments that have additional material in them. Any game that does not disappears quickly from the retailers shelves as a "dead" game.

Companies have never, and will never, survive on "buy this game and you will have all the rules you ever need to play". If they are not selling product, then they are dead. The occasional new buyer just does not and will not sustain a system or a publisher. Retailers will not keep it on the shelf if it is not generating enough sales for them either -- they have light, heat, and rent to pay you know.

If you don't like the idea, then don't buy the games, but AEG or any other company is hardly run by the anti-christ for wanting to sell you new material for your games.

You *can* use just the initial book for L5R. If you are worried about rules for the taint then buy the GM's screen. Done. Everything else is pretty much supplimental material. Winter Court and GM's Survival guides flesh out the world, but you can always to all that work on your own. They are not central to the mechanics of the system, those were all included in the basic book + GM screen. Go and have fun with them.

When did capitalism become such a dirty word? What is wrong with someone offering you new accessories for something they already sold you? If you don't want them, then don't buy them. Wailing that they are evil seems silly.

Besides, if they included all of the material that they eventually produced in one initial volume, it would cost a *fortune* and have print like the "pocket Oxford English Dictionary (Microscope included)". There is a lot of supplimental/background/optional material added in all the extra books, but they are not "necessary".

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2000-03-17 08:31:05
Converted from Phorums BB System

Here's the source book. It has everything. Except - for taint, you'll need the GM's screen. For a workable map, you'll need the City of Lies boxed set. And if you get the GM's survival guide, much of what lies within hints to the eight clan books, of course. Etc.

You'll not be told that these bits might be found here and there, by the way. In fact, occasionally you'll be deliberately misled (an insidious Kolat plot, no doubt, if my Merchant's book content is any guide). And the system is tailored to one proprietary world. 'Natch.

Don't worry friend. I'm convinced. It's off to Sengoku for me, and good riddance, eh?

Just wish I hadn't blown $300 for products unseen, on the recommendation of others.Caveat emptor, I suppose...

"Doc"

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Andy Guest at 2000-03-20 09:01:55
Converted from Phorums BB System

Did you try emailing AEG to ask themwhich books contained the information you wanted ?

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Jeff at 2000-03-20 09:14:53
Converted from Phorums BB System

While I agree that it's irritating for games to include material in the core rules (Unknown Armies' Avatar of the Mystic Hermaphorodite, for example) that's not fleshed out until a supplement comes along, to say that game designers and publishers are money-grubbing is ridiculous.

Most of the successful game designers I know barely eke out a living on what they make. Hey, that's they're choice -- I'm not saying we should feel sorry for them -- but to accuse them of being primarily mercenary is idiocy.

Show me money-grubber who goes into game design and I'll show you a masochist par execellance.

As far as publishers goes, perhaps there are a few doing well, particularly Wizards of the Coast, now a subsidiary of Hasbro, but even the respected, long-lived houses such as Steve Jackson Games and Chaosium have exprienced some serious financial troubles over the last few years (though SJG, at least, appears to be on the rebound).

The vast majority of these folks aren't rich and they aren't making a lot of money.

Frankly, the hobby would be in a lot better shape if they did. Maybe we wouldn't have lost geniuses like Warren Specter, Sandy Peterson and Greg Costikyan to other industries.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Eric Christian Berg at 2000-03-20 12:08:03
Converted from Phorums BB System

<I>The idea is not to actually produce products that satisfy the customers. If this were done, the customers would have no further need to buy more products.</I>

This is incorrect. It assumes that there is a small, limited amount of material necessary or desireable to run a game, which is not correct. Games are open ended systems. This is why many supplements are deemed 'expansions'. They take a concept from the core material and give more detail. There is no theoretical limit to how much detail can be given, only a limit on what the market will bear (given costs, interest, and applicability). Nor is there any necessary correlation between quality and quantity of material available.

<I>When TSR split up their classes into separate books (wizard, priest, fighter handbooks, etc.) hobbyists were up in arms.</I>

You are entirely misrepresenting this. In no way did TSR remove the material necessary from the core book to play these clases and move them into seperate books. The Complete Handbooks were supplemental material, offering options and expanded treatments. They did not, in any way, detract from what was in the core books, which hasn't changed at all since the game was first published. The Handbooks are entirely optional and exist for those people interested in the expanded rules and options they offer. This is not a marketing ploy, it is catering to a demand. At no time did TSR ever claim that the books were required to play the game.

Many of the other examples of this alleged behavior you give are also of the same ilk. The 'splatbooks' that White Wolf puts out for its games are entirely option. They are not at all necessary to play the game. Prior to having a lot of spare money to throw around, I got by fine with the main book and player's guide for Vampire, Mage, Wraith, and Changeling. They contained everything I needed to run the games. Similarly, most people I know who play AD&D do so without the Complete Handbooks.

<I>The monopolization of the game industry into one large monolith, complete with the coersive power of litigation such unity of size allows, only serves to excaberate the situation.</I>

What litigation? The ludicrousness of the above proposition is highlighted by the recent announcement by Rich Dancey at WotC that he is pushing to offer an 'open license' similar to the GPL for software which will allow people to develop their own D&D products without entering into a licensing agreement or owing royalties to WotC. He expects it to be cleared by the legal department by the end of the year.

<I>This situation is likely to only get worse - a lot worse - before it gets better, if it ever does. So, a game system that might have cost $20-$40 twenty years ago costs upwards of $300 or more now, and has a significantly shorter life expectancy. All of this serves the game designers at the expense of the players.</I>

Let's see how much it costs to play games, shall we?

Vampire: The Masquerade - $29.95
Werewolf: The Apocolypse - $29.95
Mage: The Ascension - $44.90
Advanced Dungeons & Dragons - $84.85
GURPS - $24.95
Delta Green - $27.95
Unknown Armies - $25.00

That's just the ones I have on my shelf right now and I can assure you, that each game can be played with 1-3 books at the prices listed above without difficulty. If you want more detail, you can buy it. If you don't, you don't have to. In no way are you coerced into buying supplement after supplement, like some sort of demented serial novel.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Jay at 2000-03-20 12:54:45
Converted from Phorums BB System

----
Ok, what about the fact that WW repeat their rules set in every version of the game. Instead of just putting the extra Mage, Werewolf or Vampire rules out as supplements to a slim core rules volume, they repeat everything.
----

...and what about R. Talsorian.
...and what about Dream Pod 9 (mind you, I'm not familiar with Tribe 8, so it may be different with that game.)
...and what about Guardians of Order.
...and what about Hero Games.
...and what about Last Unicorn.
...and what about etc. etc. etc.

WW isn't the only company that do this, and the trend didn't start with them either.

----
In the guise of flavour we have some rather dodgy fiction taking up a large chunk at the
front of the book, the black and white artwork is often very indistinct and we have to pay for 400 uninspired quotes from unknown Goth bands who are about as scary as Meatloaf.
----

I'm not going to apologise for the WW game fiction, as it's generally in a range from mediocre to pathetic (although, I did like George Alec Effinger's short story in Aeon/Trinity, but his 'When Gravity Fails' Arabic/cyberpunk series of novels is a personal fave.)

The over-exageration about the Goth bands got under my skin, though. I flipped through the 2nd Ed. Vampire book and found one, yes one, quote from that could be considered a 'Goth' band, 1 so-so, and two from bands whose sound I can't quite remember (one I think was more punk, and the other was an ambient band.) The rest were mainly from literature (high literature to boot), from a few well known historical/social/political/philosophical figures, and a few pop culture references are thrown in as well. (Hell, Mage 1st edition has quotes from the cartoon "Darkwing Duck" fer cryin' out loud.)

Mind you, the days of outside quotes are over at WW, as they themself have officially stated that they are moving away from this in favour of 'flavour' quotes taken from the signature characters. (They started with Vampire Revised.)

As for the art, 'indistinct'? Well, maybe to you and some others, but not everyone shares your opinion.

Myself, I prefer to say it's 'different' to what else is out there in gaming. Of course, the art changes from game line to game line (and they are separate game lines, all set in the same setting but with different paradigms at work, with very distinct flavour.)

With that said, I've long since moved on from WW games, much as I've long sinced moved on from D&D and its various clones, as they don't really appeal to me anymore.

Certain things aren't to certain tastes. Doesn't make them good or bad, just different. If you don't like it, you don't like it. You don't have to vilifiy something (with overexaggeration to boot) to rationalise the fact that you don't like it.
That's just plain silly, as you have the right to like and dislike whatever. It doesn't make you a lesser person, and really doesn't mean anything in the long run.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Jay at 2000-03-20 13:00:07
Converted from Phorums BB System

What the hell was I on? I think I was on too much of a roll there.

You can scratch Hero Games from that list immediately.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by StormBringer at 2000-03-20 14:08:44
Converted from Phorums BB System

<i>If I bought a book from Stephen King (in shrink wrap!), and found out that - as a marketing gimmick - he had decided to conveniently leave out the ending to promote an upcoming 'supplement', I'd be a bit miffed. If he went to the trouble of buying out every other fiction writer in the industry, and used litigation to lock new ones from entering, I'd be outraged. How about if he decided to split his novels up into chapter-sized 'booklets', each costing the price of one of his earlier works, some of which were not even authored by him?</i>

Isn't this exactly what Stephen King did for the Green Mile? About five or six mini-books? Granted, they were less expensive individually, but I don't recall the Stephen King Fan Club raising a great hue and cry, and bemoaning the end of their beloved hobby, because they couldn't get everything they wanted, at exactly when they wanted it, for as close to zero dollars as possible. And God forbid, an authour should try to make money. Writers are the paragon of altruism, and they are fed by manna from the heavens, so they don't need money. Grow up. It may be your hobby, but it is their job.

<i>There's a reason why we talk about the 'good old days'. It's because the present practices, taken out of their historical context, are impossible to judge properly. If I had my car stolen, I wouldn't "wax nostalgic" by producing a bill of sale to prove my ownership. The hobby was once fun, and now is a means of generating revenue. I could once afford to play with my friends for a few bucks, and now have to shell out hundreds just for credibility. Gaming was once wide open for tinkering and informal modification; now the Gygaxian "One True Wayism" is irreproachable canon, and the lawyers are out hunting for intellectual property thieves. Gaming was once about adventuring, and has turned into a collecting business and a trivia contest.</i>

You mean, someone actually makes money from what we are interested in?? <gasp> The Horror!!!! It's a good thing we have such bastions of selflessness like Nike shoes, Wilson sports equipment, and IBM computers to refer to. Those companies would never dare to try to make money from someone's interest in a hobby. And if you think $200 is expensive for a set of books to play a game, see if you can even find a good pair of hiking shoes for that. Then tack on a backpack, cooking equipment, a parka, etc, and you are looking at upwards of $1000 easily. And forgetting a rulebook isn't nearly as dangerous as forgetting your snakebite kit if you are in poisonous snake areas.
And what credibility are you trying to purchase anyway? If that is your goal for role-playing, then you might as well go back to your previous interest, probably watching the game on Sunday in the Drool-Proof chair. There hasn't been any level of credibility for gamers since very early on, and there may never be. Sounds more like some kinda self-esteem issue to me. That ain't gonna get fixed by playing games.
"One True Wayism"? Gygaxian? I think this was penned by Mr. Wick using one of his semi-clever pseudonyms. Of course the lawyers are looking for intellectual property theives, if you don't aggresively protect your trademarks, you lose the right to do so at a later time. By law, they have almost no choice but to attempt to protect their marks, unless they want to spend all the money registering it, then let everyone use it anyway. Doesn't sound too bright, eh? Tell ya what, tho, go ahead and write up a novella, call it Christine 2, use the original surviving characters from King's book, and see how fast his lawyers are down your throat when you try to publish that.
Gaming is still about adventuring, but you have to get off your butt and look for it. It takes work, and sometimes it does require sifting thru scads of trivia. The biggest complaint I hear from the gaming quarter these days seems to be "I want everything I need in one book, all the setting information I will ever use, barely any rules, artwork on par with the Great Masters, all the information I will ever need to play or referee in the game, and I want it for half the cost of current games. If I don't get that, and soon, I will take it out on every other game on the market and nit-pick them to death." Hey, it's time to wake up and knock off the whining. All Hobbies take effort. You think snowboarders hit the slopes day one and are shredding the hills for miles around? You think golfers grab a club or two and are shooting in the 30's first time on the course? Get over yourselves, and get past this silver platter crap. You want to have fun in your games? You are going to have to work for it. Yeah, there is that four letter word: <b>W O R K</b> I have yet to read a posting on here that says "Boy, game system X is just too simple. And I really want to do more work on a campaign background, so all that setting material is superfluous." Everyone wants every possible known factoid about a setting contained in one book, and a simple coin flipping resolution system, that somehow manages to cover any possible skill or situation realistically. There already is a system like that, it's called "Life". You are playing it right now. Head on down to your local pub, find the most drunken person in there, and punch them right in the face. Then you will have a skill resolution check to perform, and flipping coins isn't going to help.

Simple rules:
1. You don't like it: Change it
That's about the only one really. It was stated very clearly in the beginning of the PHB way back in the day, and it's part of almost every book since then. Kind of goes against that "One True Wayism" nonsense, doesn't it? And if you still want to game with your freinds for a few bucks, grab some dice, an old copy of Car Wars or some such and have at it. Or you can get any one of hundreds of RPGs online for free, all you need to supply is the dice.

But please, for my sake, stop whining about things that are totally under your control in the first place.

StormBringer
Harbinger of Chaos

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Ardatli at 2000-03-20 16:37:21
Converted from Phorums BB System

[quote:]
>As people tend to wish larer homes, bigger cars, trips, etc., the cost of gaming will >correspondingly increase.

As people tend to need to pay rent and buy food to eat, and game designer/editors/publishers are people, the cost of gaming will inevitably increase. As much as we may complain about prices, gaming is very much a niche market. That means that few copies of every book actually get sold, compared to other areas of the publishing industry. Costs, of course, are actually higher -- companies have to pay artists for interior art, and printing itself is obscenely expensive, especially for the small print runs that most games have to start with.

You can get a deal on printing four million copies of the latest Harlequin, and be reasonably sure of recouping your expenses. Just try to print and sell four million copies of a sourcebook, or even a great new rulebook, and see how quickly you go into bankruptcy.

The cost of games is related to the expensive nature of creating the product, and to the needs of the professionals producing them -- the need to feed themselves, and someday their families. I know few professional game publishers/editors (leaving out the massive successes of WW and WotC) who make enough to pay off a mortgage, a car, and raise a family -- even with the help of a secondary spousal income.

Don't accuse publishers of greed when they're barely making a living wage. If this wasn't something they loved to do, how many do you think would still be doing it?

I certainly wouldn't.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2000-03-20 20:10:56
Converted from Phorums BB System

No, I didn't. I just assumed that a map that came with the game would be a good one. I just assumed that a book called "The Merchant's Guide to Rokugan" would be about merchants. I bought the stuff 'sight unseen', trusting the company. Obviously, I'm pretty stupid.

Don't worry. This buyer intends to use a bit more 'jade' in further purchases. Even us 'munchkin' gamers learn, eventually.

P.S. (Yes, I am. Self proclaimed, and proud of it.)

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2000-03-20 20:17:12
Converted from Phorums BB System


What I'd say is the 'poor hobbyist' of the past is rapidly going extinct (except, perhaps, on small 'Net offerings). People in the industry want to make money - lots of it - and the new marketing formulas will reflect this more and more.

There are certainly better ways to make a fortune, but I do presume that these latest moves to corner the industry haven't been to 'improve the gaming community'. IMHO.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2000-03-20 20:26:33
Converted from Phorums BB System

I give up. 'Tis the dregs of "whine" that spur mine thoughts, and thus, they are nae proper fare for those accustomed to more heady elixers.

And I have 'fixed' it. I've changed systems. So there.

(There should be a disclaimer, really. "Post ideas in tune with the new ideology, and hold off any negative thoughts. or we'll thrash you.

And don't get me started with sneakers, now...)

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Steve Dempsey at 2000-03-22 10:06:46
Converted from Phorums BB System

I wasn't suggesting WW were the only company to repeat themselves. I was just using the 'one counter-example nullifies the argument' line of reasoning.

The over-exaggeration about Goth bands should be taken as such -overemphasising the point as a rhetorical device to descredit it, but in a toungue-in-cheek way. I failed to put a smiley at the end, to indicate humour and as such I lay myself bare before your mordant wit, trenchant criticism and laser beam dissection of my pitiful comments. Oh, almost forgot: ;-)

I didn't actually say WW was bad. OK, it is aimed at a particular market, whose demographic I do not really fit, but I am quite happy for angsty teenagers to fork out their weekly pittance on such fare ;-) All power to WW's elbow, they are one of the few RPG companies to have actually created a market for their goods where there was none.

What I did say was that all the guff (Danger, Vilification!) at the start of the book did not get me in a gothic kind of mood. The repetition of the rules also failed to endear me to the product (Danger, Understatement!).

I do perhaps have a slight chip on my shoulder due to playing WW games with unrepentant powergamers (not that I'm knocking powergamers, as long as I'm allowed to do something different).

However I do own several of their glorious tomes (Danger, Exaggeration!) and find that the paradigm idea behind Mage is interesting although the execution is rather dull. The Three Pillars supplement for Vampire: Dark Ages is also worthy of perusal.

I wasn't vilifiying the product to rationalise my dislike, au contraire (Danger, Prententiousness!), I was critically examining the product to see whether it achieved the aim that it set itself.

Much of what WW peddles (Danger, Vilification!) as gothic is not. Being slightly better read than your average teenager, my experience of the gothic mood extends beyond The Sisters of Mercy and Darkwing Duck to the darker corners: Baudelaire, The Castle of Otranto, the Monk, Le Fanu, Poe (and maybe even Lovecraft). I was expecting to be transported to a grim world of despair and cruelty, instead I got Buffy (which is possibly the same).

GB Steve

Netiquette Hint No 1:
Remember, with emails, criticise the ideas not the person.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Jay at 2000-03-22 19:28:52
Converted from Phorums BB System

SD:I wasn't suggesting WW were the only company to repeat themselves. I was just using the 'one counter-example nullifies the argument' line of reasoning.

J:My most humble of apologies. Had your original statement been as verbose (Danger, understatement!) I would not have mistaken your intent.

SD:I wasn't vilifiying the product to rationalise my dislike, au contraire (Danger,
Prententiousness!), I was critically examining the product to see whether it

J:In all seriousness, with all the irrational attacks on x company and y system that pop-up quite often, yours read as such to these eyes. Had I realized that you were using your 'Dry English Wit™' for the powers of good, I would not have suggested otherwise.
Again, my most humble apologies.
----

Netiquette Hint No 1:
Remember, with emails, criticise the ideas not the person.

- First Corollary: Never assume that you are indeed you.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Steve Dempsey at 2000-03-23 02:54:33
Converted from Phorums BB System

For want of a better way of contacting you.

I had feared something ugly but instead find a most gracious apology.

You, sir, are a gentleman, a scholar and ... an acrobat.

Cheers,

GB Steve

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by John Ward at 2000-03-30 12:10:45
Converted from Phorums BB System

>When I buy a computer game, everything I need to play it is in the box, besides the computer.

An RPG isn't a computer game. Instead of a game created to react to your responses, it's a bunch of people working together. It is in fact much more incomplete by nature than a computer game. Of course, the computer game has no social interaction involved.

But okay, maybe you're right about the core game should be playable. Maybe you're using the wrong games? Maybe I'm just more fortunate in my tastes matching the more complete game companies. Atlas Games, for example, publishes several good complete as written games: Feng Shui, Over the Edge, Unknown Armies.

>L5R has a setting. One. You play in it. Cards, miniatures rules, and the RPG all have tie-ins to it. Buy into one, and you are encouraged to buy into the rest. One could spend upwards of $1000 purchasing all the stuff for this game, and STILL be in the dark about important elements of the setting.

Still, no one is putting a gun to your head and making you buy the cards, right? Granted, I spent upwards of $100 on Shadowfist cards, even when they were going cheap, but I enjoyed it, I wasn't forced to.

>What do I want? Give me, first, something I can play - something that, once I have a certain number of books (three, maybe?) will be complete. Tell me what these books are. Do not lie (please) about what your books are about, especially for us trusting fools who buy said sight unseen (as in MGtR). I have $40 of useless 'travelogues', thinking that they were write-ups on a vaguely described campaign world. Make them open-ended enough to allow the GM to make his own world.

Fair enough. Please don't categorize the entire game industry along these terms, though.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Vin at 2000-04-03 15:43:09
Converted from Phorums BB System

"If I bought a book from Stephen King (in shrink wrap!), and found out that - as a marketing gimmick - he had decided to
conveniently leave out the ending to promote an upcoming 'supplement', I'd be a bit miffed"...

Please don't buy products you can't inspect. It gives us sensible consumers a bad name.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2000-04-03 21:19:31
Converted from Phorums BB System

You're right. That's why "E-Bay" is so unpopular, I suppose.

Don't worry. I've learned my lesson. About a great many things.

"Doc"

P.S.: Thanks for the friendly and supportive concern. It warms the heart to know that this isn't a discussion board designed solely as an unthinking back-slapping pro-industry organ. Lucky for me, eh?

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2000-04-03 21:29:29
Converted from Phorums BB System

One need not play at conventions, either. An RPGA membership isn't really needed. One need not have the full mechanics to play a 'core' game. That's what your imagination is for, isn't it? And, while we're at it, why buy any of the bloody things at all?

No, I'm not forced to buy any of this tripe. And I shan't. Truly, this endeavor of mine seems to carry the stink of madness about it.

From now on, I speak with my money. Discourse is pointless.

"Doc"

-In any case, my copy of Sengoku came in. This is the way it ought to be done...

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Eduardo Ramirez at 2000-04-04 22:10:32
Converted from Phorums BB System

>Dr. Cruel wrote:-------------------------------1) It is in black and white. Many of the "rivers" are actually clan borders, which one finds out in the color map included in the "City of Lies" boxed set ($30).2) There is a missing section running down the middle. The capital of the empire happens to be located in this region, and several cities are missing (Doji castle, for one).


That's odd. My copy of the rulebook has a pretty nifty color section at the end with a full color map. It is a shame that it overlaps the middle and we lose part of it in the <I want to say that portion is called the gutter, but it has been a long time since I was yearbook editor and had to know about such things>. But it is defiantely in color. Must be a change in a later printing. Also, my gm's screen has a really glorious picture of that very same full-color map on that outside; it works beautifully and is easier to use than the City of Lies map. I guess that must have been changed in the current printing, too.

But even if you're copies of these products lack these things, I still can't understand what it is about L5r that people feel they need so many supplements for. I played the game for a year before I bought a single book. Sure, there are some things that you aren't going to find in main book that are seriously cool, such as the recently released info on Minor Clans and Naga, but if you use only the rules and information in the rulebook you'll still have an incredibly fun time. And if you'd like some free background material or extra rules such as minor clan techniques or new oni there is a wealth of info on the web.

If someone asked me what they should buy for l5r after they acquired the main-rulebook, there is only one supplement that I would say was a must-have: the City of Lies Boxed Set. Not for the vital rules it includes or critical background info that it provides, because it has none of these things. What it does have is the best writeup of a city to have an adventure in. If there is some other aspect of the game that apeals to you and you don't care for political intrigue, You can find everything you need in at most one other book. Games dedicated to horror and Oni-hunting will probably require the first Book of the Shadowlands (you don't really need the second, but it has some really nifty stuff that are cool to read). If you want to dedicate your game to oncovering secret conspiracies, either Merchants Guide to Rokugan or Way of Shadow will provide more than enough for a lengthy campaign. As for a book that you would need for EVERY campaign, I can't think of one. I should know, I own them all :)

There might be games out there that absolutely require extra books beyond what they state outright, but none that I own, and certainly not L5R.


-Eduardo Ramirez

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2000-04-05 08:43:06
Converted from Phorums BB System

My map is in black and white. Also, already pages are falling out of the center spine. Maybe this system was very popular, and they skimped on later printings to meet demand - or maybe it's partly the retailer I'm working with (later, I found that I could have purchased the whole set in a special binding for $150. This would have been cheaper, and the quality of my stuff would have been superior. The advertizement for this offer was in my first shipment, at the back of the source book. Grrr...)

Perhaps I've been a bit hard on the system and the producers of it, Wick et.al. But my experience has not been good, neither in regards to what I've gotten for my koku nor from the feedback from players or the 'pundits' on this board. The message seems to be that I'd better just like it or lump it; if that's the case, I'll lump it and call it a day.

It's my experience so far that to play this game you have to know a great deal of 'trivia', especially the names of a host of make-believe 'heroes' printed on the cardset. Without this knowledge, you play the RPG at a considerable disadvantage. Even though I find the wargame offering interesting, the experience I've had with the RPG has completely turned me away from it, lest I fall for the same tricks. This isn't the first time I've run across such practices, and I refuse to be apologetic for noticing a rising trend in this sort of thing. Gaming just isn't the friendly sort of hobby it used to be - it's become far more mercenary in my experience, and I don't see this trend abating soon. Perhaps my future in gaming will revolve around small 'amateur' gamers on obscure 'Net sites, or with the smaller game publishers (like Gold Rush)...

My two cents, for what it's worth.

"Doc"

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Goblin at 2000-08-13 16:23:01
Converted from Phorums BB System

"Thes rules are as complete as possible within the limitation imposed by the space of three booklets. That is, they cover the major aspects of fantasy campaigns but still remain flexible. As with any other set of miniatures rules they are GUIDELINES to follow in designing your own fantastic-medieval campaign. They provide a framework ...... .... "

The above is from "Dungeons & Dragons: Rules for fantastic medieval wargames. Campaings playable with paper and pencil and miniature figures" By Gygax & Arneson. "Men & Magic" volume 1 of three published by tactical studies rules in 1975.

Roleplaying was designed as a customizable environment long before the time of pretty pixels and numb thumbs. Good gaming takes time, effort, and imagination. This is sometimes a hard learned fact in our current age a cyber-speed gratification. It used to be "I want it now" however it evolved to become "I want it all now!".

Goblin

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Joolz at 2001-02-23 05:58:34
Converted from Phorums BB System

Colectable Role Playing Games? I agree, and even though 7th Sea is a great system they'll keep the whole world moving so's in two years 2nd edition'll come out so if you want to keep up, buy the new book, and then all the source stuff as well, just like Vampire. I've started playing my old games, it's cheeper, and easier to do.

The cost of games has become greater and greater, the amount to material has as well, and as Dr Cruel said, the quality has not. I have to say that there seem to me many more small companies around now such as Wasteland games, but they are difficult to find.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2001-02-23 06:07:29
Converted from Phorums BB System

I don't see any of the newer games being collected in the future (besides the ICE Middle Earth stuff, which is actually rather old as it is). 7C and L5R, with their mega-margins and scant content, just don't cut it. And yes, I have stooped to paying gobs of cash for ancient games - if I'm going to be soaked for my hobby, best to purchase something that's good rather than what someone has decided to market as good.

As it is, I'm almost ready to give up on roleplaying entirely (too political/commercial/stupid) and move on to board games and computer software exclusively.

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Joolz at 2001-02-23 06:49:46
Converted from Phorums BB System

Is this why many games have such defined settings now? (7th Sea, Shadowrun et al) To get the modern "I want it now" generation into gaming? My first game was Runequest 2nd Edition (yes they did that back then, I think Chaosium where the first), you got Rules, monster booklet of pre generated NPC's and a scenario, all in a box set. Enough was there to run a Campaigne with little work, then most Rule Books where just that and light on setting, Runequest had a little more setting than many games, now setting is everything. The FGU line of games used much the same system in differant settings, Bushido is Anciant Japan, Aftermath is post Apocolips ect, so what is happening now is not new, appart from in Bushido and Aftermath the game was only a tool, you had to do the work, and there was suffiant differances in the game's systems that made them differant.

TSR's Core D20 system seems much the same idea, but I have my resevations, I liked the old Star Wars game as it captured the feel of the films, but the D20 doen't have the feel, it feels like D&D in space, Lovcraftian D&D anyone? I thought not. One thing that FGU did was creat systems for differant genres not for specific universes, which I believe will not work as the system will not reflect the feel of the game enough.

I just remembered Traveller, talk about booster pack rules. Core rules, mecenary book and all that, it must have been the most published for game of it's time (baring AD&D, though only just, so that's not new either. Not only that but FASA started by writing scenarios and the like for Traveller.

The gaming industry has changed and become very centralised, but this will change again in time, the D20 system may allow writters to get a start in the industry, use the D20 stuff untill they have the opportunity to finish the game the wanted to write at the start.

I'm obviously not the worried, so why am I writeing?

Oh yeah, but at least computer game patches are free, I think that's what I came on to say. hahaha

Goblin wrote:
-------------------------------
"Thes rules are as complete as possible within the limitation imposed by the space of three booklets. That is, they cover the major aspects of fantasy campaigns but still remain flexible. As with any other set of miniatures rules they are GUIDELINES to follow in designing your own fantastic-medieval campaign. They provide a framework ...... .... "

The above is from "Dungeons & Dragons: Rules for fantastic medieval wargames. Campaings playable with paper and pencil and miniature figures" By Gygax & Arneson. "Men & Magic" volume 1 of three published by tactical studies rules in 1975.

Roleplaying was designed as a customizable environment long before the time of pretty pixels and numb thumbs. Good gaming takes time, effort, and imagination. This is sometimes a hard learned fact in our current age a cyber-speed gratification. It used to be "I want it now" however it evolved to become "I want it all now!".

Goblin

[RPGnet Columns]

Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2001-02-23 07:51:03
Converted from Phorums BB System

The problem with business markets is that people do not offer products that the public wants - they offer products that make them money. Cocaine and crack may not have long term benefits for the consumer, but they are still popular products amongst a core group of entrepreneurial startups in recent days. So also the old cardboard crack - MtG, a big seller in its day, and very lucrative for those who peddled the stuff (and cheaper knockoffs).

The new model for gaming seems to be corporate, and world-based. It's hard to copyright a mechanic for resolving combat, or judging the effects of a failed effort in a specialization - but there's a long tradition in property law for ownership of fictionalized settings and characterizations, based on the publishers of fiction in the book industry. Thus, watch as more and more games are based on a special, intrinsic setting unique to that system.

(There's a leakage too. RPGs lead to card games, and vice versa, which lead to fiction publications, and vice versa, and so forth. For a time, Dragonlance books were on the top of the NYT best sellers list. It's factoids like that which make the corporates and stockholders drool.)

Old RPGs were simply ways to set up a quick tactical battle. The old players were wargamers, tended to be conservative and geeky, and liked simple hack&slash. New RPGs are stylish, frequently make "political" statements (which are popular, and likely to increase sales), and are designed to create a "roleplaying experience". The new players are artists, tend to be liberal (if not blatantly radicals/anarchists/etc.) and attempt to make profound commentary in the games they run, if not openly indoctrinating each other in proper modes of thought.

Wow. You know where my bias lies by now, don't you? It's the old dichotomy, dressed up in 21st century ideology...

Joolz wrote:
-------------------------------
Is this why many games have such defined settings now? (7th Sea, Shadowrun et al) To get the modern "I want it now" generation into gaming? My first game was Runequest 2nd Edition (yes they did that back then, I think Chaosium where the first), you got Rules, monster booklet of pre generated NPC's and a scenario, all in a box set. Enough was there to run a Campaigne with little work, then most Rule Books where just that and light on setting, Runequest had a little more setting than many games, now setting is everything. The FGU line of games used much the same system in differant settings, Bushido is Anciant Japan, Aftermath is post Apocolips ect, so what is happening now is not new, appart from in Bushido and Aftermath the game was only a tool, you had to do the work, and there was suffiant differances in the game's systems that made them differant.

TSR's Core D20 system seems much the same idea, but I have my resevations, I liked the old Star Wars game as it captured the feel of....