You're sponsored by an enemy of gaming

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Post originally by Pierre Savoie at 2000-06-14 22:42:33
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Does no one see the irony in this article from May by Sandy Autunes?

<a href="http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/soapmay00.html">Running a Business as an Old Style D&D Party</a>

It's got a banner ad on the side for a National World War II Memorial -- but the celebrity promoting it is Tom Hanks! Not the same Tom Hanks who spread the image of the zoned-out D&D-player, confusing fantasy with reality in MAZES & MONSTERS (CBS, 1982)? Yes, the very same. He spread this stereotype to the minds of millions of people, and now you let his face on a gaming site?

I don't really care what he or Gwyneth Paltrow or Ed Asner or all the other actors used in movies attacking D&D have done since then, their images are about as appealing as a charity ad with Hitler as the poster-boy. It would be a class act if rpg.net went to their sponsor and said the use of Tom Hanks' image is offensive to gamers, and ask for an alternative ad.

Maybe most gamers have been unaffected by the flak against D&D which has existed since 1980, but some gamers' lives have been horribly affected by the images and stereotypes that people like Hanks spread around. A mental ward for involuntary commitment of D&D-players existed, for a time, at the Hartgrove Hospital in Chicago. Troy Pressley of Springfield, MO almost lost the custody of his children because his mother-in-law entered his D&D-playing as evidence of "bad parenting". Children have also been physically abused by their parents, if they liked the hobby but their parents liked Christian tracts vilifying the game.

I have researched the history of this flak for 15 years, and my Web-site on the topic is called <a href="http://dracopolitics.homestead.com">The Avenging Dragons</a>. I offer more than just vague political platitudes on the issue but NAMES, DATES, and I don't just offer a shield against these attacks on the fans, but weapons to fight back.

--Pierre Savoie, Toronto, Canada

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Post originally by Pierre Savoie at 2000-06-15 00:03:33
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Good Lord, I was wrong. Every article in rpg.net has Tom Hanks' face plastered on it. That's bad, and I described why.
The messages here don't take HTML tags like I expected; my Web-site on the issue of anti-D&D flak is at dracopolitics.homestead.com

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Post originally by ObligatoryUserName at 2000-07-18 22:49:36
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That someone would actually attempt to compare Tom Hanks and Hitler is incomprehensible. My memory's bad, when did Tom Hanks start a war the left more than 20 million dead? When did Tom Hanks attempt to comit genocide?

Things may have been bad, but they're getting better. How? Not by holding grudges and swearing vendettas. Things are getting better because gaming is becoming mainstream.

I may be out of the loop, but in my opinion, I think 99% of gamers would disagree with your statement that the use Tom Hank's image is offensive.

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Post originally by Bret Gillan at 2000-07-29 11:30:46
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I may be offending you with a religious quote here, but here goes.

"Hatred cannot be eliminated by hating, but by not hating. This is the universal law." - The Buddha

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Post originally by Godfather Punk at 2000-08-08 09:07:35
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Oh. It's just silly old Pierre again. He forgot to mention he can't stand homosexuals and Tom Hanks got an Oscar for playing the role of a homosexual, so he can't stand Tom Hanks either...

GP

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Post originally by Goblin at 2000-08-13 15:33:30
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The mother of a friend of mine discovered his D&D books one day (1980s ?). After reviewing the "Dieties & Demigods" she explained to him that the game was offensive to their religious teachings but that she would leave the decision up to him as to what course of action to take. After talking to me about the instance we both decided that she did indeed deserve an explanation and clarification regarding D&D (roleplaying games). During this time we were both in high school and were well aware of the bad press D&D was getting mainly due to movies such as "Mazes ...." and its star actor Tom Hanks. He went home to talk to her and arrange an opportunity for us to talk about her concerns. Later that day he called me. She had gathered everything she could find regarding roleplaying (Six+ Books, dice, figures that he had painted, paper ... everything) and burned it in the front lawn. Evidently her religious convictions had nothing against book burning.

When I saw the Tom Hanks add I immediately made the connection to someone who had acted in a film that demonized RPG players. That said I still believe that Tom Hanks is a good actor and he has done good work since then. I would not consider him equivalent to Hitler by any stretch of the imagination. However he is someone who has taken a part, however small in persecuting those of us who like roleplaying.

By placing the add on the site RPGnet has taken a stance for responsibility and community awareness that may do the industry some good when attempting to distance its self from the current bad stigma that Tom Hanks has helped to promote. Possibly a larger add could be arranged with its sponsors that lacks the image of Tom Hanks? That way both concerns could be addressed. They would know that RPGnet takes both its responsibility to its visitors (Gamers) and it chance to do good for the community seriously.

Let's take a bit of time to recognize that RPGnet is a GOOD THING for us and the industry. It provides a forum to discus topics and provides an extended community for gamers.

I would disagree that traditional roleplaying games are becoming mainstream. VIDEO games are becoming mainstream. Dice a paper games are existing primarily on the barrowed memories of others and will not last much longer unless we begin to take this form of entertainment/education more seriously.


Sincerely

Goblin

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Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2000-08-14 08:25:35
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Personally, my beef is with the Wiccans. They seem to have taken over my hobby, and chased away all the Christian players.

In the group I was with, the DM "urged" me to see things more his way. His own brother left the game (becoming a born-again Christian), but I thought the guy was just going through a phase. I was a fool, because that pressure became more and more extreme... I finally had to leave the group, when I found that he was monitoriing me on the 'Net. (One of his final comments to me was that "we will break you"...)

I don't think everyone who plays D&D is a hard-core leftist wolf in druid's clothing (Vampire, on the other hand...) What I will say is that there are many Wiccans who are a great deal more vindictive and vicious than there are anti-game Christians, at least in my experience. Usually, the worst Christians are those in the fundamentalist sects - but the Wiccans don't seem to come in any other flavor but "fundamentalist", and that always seems to go with a hefty dose of leftist political-correctness and anti-Christianity as well.

As for Tom Hanks - he's an actor, for Pete's sake. He's playing a ROLE. The same people who hound actors about their "views" give players dirty looks after a game for playing evil characters. What a crock.

Personally, anyone who develops a deeply held political stance on the basis of a TV movie is a monkey. (No... Doing so in response to a theatre release isn't any better. Sheesh.)

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Post originally by Bret Gillan at 2000-08-14 11:06:08
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One thing I'd like to point out is that you said the "current" bad stigma that Tom Hanks helped to promote. The days of D&D being demon worshipping are fading away, my friend. The bad stigma's fading into the background. I have not met a single person that thinks D&D goes against Christian beliefs. The only bad stigma we need to worry about is someone who thinks roleplayers are geeks with bad body odor and no lives. :P

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Post originally by Bret Gillan at 2000-08-14 11:12:15
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Dr. Cruel, you voiced something that I've been seeing more and more, not only from Wiccans, but from atheists, even Buddhists. There seems to be an enormous anti-Christian movement starting. It's rather frightening.

People who rant and rave about their religious freedom are the first ones to start shrieking about seperation of church and state when a little kid takes a Bible to school with him. They call little old ladies who teach Sunday school hate-mongers, and are generally becoming utterly hateful and cruel towards Christianity in general.

As you said, there's some wacky fundamentalists out there, but even the Christians who are decent folks get lumped in together with them.

I've suffered my share of torment at Christian hands, but by no means do I want to see them "get what's coming to them" as many of the Wiccans or atheists I've talked to do.

*sigh*

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Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2000-08-14 16:17:02
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By my reckoning, "Wicca" is a tailor-made religion, designed to attack Christianity. In the initial incarnation (Satanism), the idea was to usurp the authority that Christianity had over the mainstream population. Popular for a while, the ideology ran into two major snafus - the first being that, to be a Satanist, one has to acknowledge Christianity at some base level. The other is that "Satan" is a symbol of some rather nasty behavioral systems... Certainly a better ploy than the stark atheism of standard Leftism, but a failure nevertheless.

Wicca is far more robust. It makes an attempt to claim its roots from the druidic tradition, thus validating a claim of victimization in regards to Christianity. Furthermore, there is a decided anti-industrial message embedded in the philosophical system, perfect for bringing in otherwise reluctant converts to the "revolution". Mate this with a group of young kids, already ostracized from the mainstream culture, link the persecution of D&D players with the historical persecution of witches throughout history, and you have a propaganda winner.

What I've seen is that, once the membership has been decided on, the "unacceptable" people are pushed out. The group then becomes more a cell for left-wing pursuits than a gaming group, with "adventures" designed around role-playing various incidents that reflect one's personal views. That was my experience, anyway.

Which has nothing to do with the more "capitalistic" crookedness of the gaming industry, but what the hell.

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Post originally by Bret Gillan at 2000-08-15 00:11:43
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Sounds like some pretty intense stuff, Doc. I haven't had to deal with anything quite that extreme, thank you.

Your analysis of Wicca was extremely interesting. As someone who once perused Wicca as a potential religion, hearing someone say that it's constructed along with a lot of intelligent reasoning behind it is quite interesting.

Wicca always smelt a little fishy to me.

Anyhow, thank you for some very interesting things to chew on. I don't think I'll be bringing this up next time my Wiccan friends start Christianity-bashing though. I *do* value my life. ;)

Peace,
Bret

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Post originally by DM Nick at 2000-08-23 11:26:42
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Now, before we get started here, let me state for the record that I am not Wiccan, but I do know a bit about the religion. My own belief system can be best described as agnostic Earth-worship, but I also respect the teachings of Jesus Christ during his life and feel that the example of Jesus' life is a good one to emulate.

I take issue with Dr. Cruel's reckoning of Wicca as mutation of satanism, this is simply not true. The original incarnation of Wicca is not satanism. Satanism as an organized belief system was started by a certain Mr. Anton LeVey in 1969, when he published _The_Satanic_Bible_ (which IMO is a horrid little book in which LeVey attempts to justify all sorts of ridiculous behaviour). Any educated and level-headed Wiccan will tell you that Wicca is as far from satanism as you can get. Wicca has its true roots in ancient times, among the wise-women, healers and midwives who were closely attuned with nature. Wicca does not acknowledge the existence of the Christian Devil (nor the Christian God, but that is not really relevant to this discussion - a Buddhist doesn't acknowledge the Christian God either, nor does a Muslim, etc. etc.), so by definition Wicca cannot be associated with Satanism. Any so-called Wiccan who starts talking about the power of Satan is someone who is very, very ignorant about the teachings of Wicca, and is *certainly* not what they say they are.

Wicca is not anti-Christian, and in fact many of the core beliefs of Wicca are very closely in line with the teachings of Jesus Christ (hard to believe, I know, but it's true). Namely, that life is sacred, harming others is wrong, all people who act in good faith towards others deserve good faith in return, charity to the poor and oppressed, respect for a higher being who created the world & universe, etc.

Wiccans recognize a higher being, which is personified by the Goddess, and She can be any number of things depending on who you ask. Many people are drawn to the teachings of Wicca because they feel cast out by the trappings of male-centric worship (it cannot be argued that Jehova the Christian God, is not a decidedly male figure, whatever else one might think of Him). The Goddess has a male counterpart, who is equal to Her in all aspects, but governs different pieces of the system than She does. He is known simply as the God, and personifies male energy, action, and cyclical forces (the primary life-death-rebirth cycle). Nowhere in Wiccan teachings is the existence of other Gods (up to and including Jehova, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit) or spiritual forces denied. A secure Wiccan should be one of the least dogmatic of persons, since Wicca is, by design, not an evangelistic religion. Anyone who tries to evangelize Wicca is probably trying to sell you something.

The anti-industrial sentiment you speak of is prevalent even among good Wiccans, because they hold the sanctity of the Earth's balanced ecosystem in enormously high regard. This is a belief that I share. As a computer professional, it would be hypocritical to denounce ALL industry and technology as a Wrong Thing, but I personally believe that our modern corporate culture's emphasis on profits at the expense of all else is causing serious harm to the long-term health of our planet. As many Wiccans see the planet Earth as the physical personification of the Goddess (another Wiccan belief that I share, though I am no Wiccan), the wholesale destruction of the environment by profit-hungry corporations causes a great deal of anger. There must be a way to balance the advance of technology and industry with the preservation of our natural environment, any other path will eventually take us to a Very Bad Place in human affairs. I am no bleeding-heart liberal, but I find it hard to believe that the human race will survive and prosper if we keep treating our planet the way we do.

I cannot argue against your point that there are many idiotic self-styled "wiccans" who are decidedly anti-Christian. These people are bitter beyond measure, and are clearly not paying attention to the core teachings of Wicca. They are no better than the hate-spewing fundamentalists on the far right. A Wiccan secure in his/her beliefs would have no need to attack Christianity - it simply wouldn't occur to them to do so. These anti-Christian so-called Wiccans would do well to take a page from the Bible and tattoo it on their hearts: "Judge not, lest ye be judged." There is really no excuse for their behaviour, just as there is no excuse for the behaviour of certain far-right fundamentalists. I hope we can agree that the instances of ignorant, hate-based behaviour on the part of Wiccans are no more common than instances of similar hate-based behaviour on the part of far-right fundamentalists.

In regards to gaming groups made up of these nasty, hateful "wiccans," my advice is this: leave them to their delusions. They will either come around and understand that they're being foolish... or they won't - but they're not worth your time in any case, since 99% of the time they are acting like ignorant children with no respect for others' beliefs. Either way, there are plenty of nice people to game with who won't push their religion in your face, whether it's Wicca, Christianity, Buddhism or whatever else.

Peace and respect,

DM Nick

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Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2000-08-23 19:02:30
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I speak from my experience, and from what I have seen and read. Wicca seems to have appeared in the early 50's, and was started by Gerald B. Gardner, Raymond and Rosemary Buckland, and others. It codifies spiritually the situational ethics of anarchism, and is commonly used by the Left nowadays as a vehicle for spreading socialist concepts and for attacking Christianity (usually in the defense of church/state separation). Furthermore, amongst virtually everyone I know that is involved in this religion, there is a decidedly anti-Christian viciousness that can become quite vehement.

The "coven" system seems to be very similar to the "cell" organization of the old socialists - as in many of the atheistic college socialists I knew that "converted" to this belief system. Individuals involved in these groups tend to become very insular, and their gaming groups (at least in Texas, where I encountered many such "covens") are highly selective about who they play with, and where. I personally was in such a group, and watched as the non-Wicca convertees were pushed out, one by one.

I don't wish to seem an advocate of intolerance. As an Armenian, I have certain unpleasant things to say about Turkish Muslims of the early 20th century; this, however, has not kept me from serving with these people, or forging friendships with them (some of whom have been a great deal more decent to me than old Wiccan acquaintances I've known for 15+ years, I might add). I simply am relating what I know to be the case - not from ignorance, but from first-hand experience. My grandfather might have less restrained, to Turks who claimed that his attitude was related to ignorance, and not to the "non-event" of his family's slaughter.

As for "peace", I am inclined to return what I've received. There is supposedly a "three-fold" rule in Wicca that covers this sort of situation, if my memory serves. May I conclude by saying that actions speak louder than words?

-D.C.

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Post originally by Illiterate at 2000-09-01 02:20:56
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Gardnerian Wicca is but one form, and was based on philosophies from earlier times. There are others.

Your alleged links between socialism and Wicca do not stand up to scrutiny. Covens and Cells are similar in that it represents a small group of like-minded individuals banded together for mutual support and security. However, cells are groups of people who wish to advance a certain political point of view, and impose this views on others. Covens are only for the benefit of their members. I've known some Wiccans who were markedly anti-christian, even violently so, but a thousand years of persecution, repression, and slaughter can do this. They have the distinction of NOT belonging to the religion which burned the library of alexandria.

I know many people of christian beliefs and many of wicca. I have not seen a marked trend in either group towards what I consider to be moral behavior or what I consider immoral. Different people behave different ways, according to their own consciences.

Like DM Nick, I am somewhere in between the two in my belief system, a spiritual eclectic who is more interested in truth than dogma.

I've babbled long enough, I'm going to go watch television.

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Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2000-09-01 07:37:18
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(...)

It is the "religious" nature of Wicca that does not stand up to scrutiny. What I am meant to believe is that, suddenly, a movement with direct links to Celtic paganism sprung up across Christendom (in particular the colleges and universities), quite out of the blue. This religion, quite coincidentally, shares views almost identical to radical feminists, socialists, leftist ecologists, etc. One is supposed to ignore the almost 'tailor-made' aspects of the metaphysics…

Please. I, myself, am not illiterate. Throughout my education I have been an avid reader, which has served to compensate somewhat for the miserable state of schooling considered adequate in this country. I am familiar with the 19th century, as I am with the 'liberal' movements of this period. Wicca is merely another incarnation of the highly political academian mysticism that frequented the times. I would have to be an idiot to believe otherwise, especially after my own personal experiences with its "membership" - and I am not an idiot.

Incidentally, I no more believe that the Catholic Church is in the library-burning business than I do that abortion is a sacrament of the Wiccan faith, practiced at clinics in the name of Kali, the Bitch-Mother. Both theories have much in the way of circumstantial evidence to support their hypothesis, yet both are decidedly false. There is, however, a fratricidal cold-war between the Christian and Platonic sects of academia that is hardly of recent vintage, of which this phenomenon is only but one field of combat. It would do one well to become familiar with the issues and parties involved, as one can expect both to inflict themselves on the society at large for some time to come. The increasing affluence of the West is not helping, either (which is, incidentally, why both the Church and the feminists are solidly against the cheap abortion pill).

You may go back to watching your television.

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Post originally by Unnamed One at 2000-09-07 20:37:33
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D&D, and most other games, do not go against Christian beliefs. I know many Christian gamers and am one myself... so don't stereotype us. But then again, there are those who do think D&D is of the devil, because they know nothing of the games.

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Post originally by Uthred at 2000-09-15 09:44:57
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1000 years of persecution eh ? I will assume firstly that the main are you are referring to is the period of the second Inquisition , which lasted approximately 300 years from about 1450-1730 and in which allegedly millions upon millions of innocent wiccans were burned ?

Well for a start the very term "wiccan" was coined by Mr. Gardner somewhere in the years 1930-1950 , and I suppose you could argue that it was in fact about before in various words which meant wise woman etc but the point is that its first appearance in literature was attribited to Mr Gardner. Secondly from historical reports and records the numbers killed over the 300 years of the Inquisition barely reached the 500,000 mark and of those only a tiny percentage were actually what could be considered the progenitors of modern day earth based religion , most of them were jews or other such minorities or simply innocent victims , because a little known fact is that in most places the witch-hunters got the condemed goods or a percentage thereof. Now that we have hopefully put the Inquisition behind us where else were wiccans prosecuted in a large organised manner ? And the fact remains that they wouldnt have been wiccans they would have been what would eventually become wiccans but let us leave such pedantics aside.

What always amazes me is the fact that the catholic church continually gets the shaft by people incensed over the psersecution of the progenitors of their religion. For a start as any decent historian could tell you what current wiccans practice and what those peopole who may or may not have been killed by the church practised would be radically different for any number of reasons , secondly I dont see these wiccans out protesting to the Italian government for the atrocities perpetrated by the Romans (eg 50,000 slaves crucified after one revolt).

Then we come to the laughable fallacy that these things are descended from the ancient teachings of the celtic druids. Now I come from Ireland (which had the least externally polluted celtic heritage) where celtic heritage lasted the longest and I have spent several years investigating what I could , reading all I could find and talking to any historians I could get my hands on and not a single one of the sources I have encountered gives any credence to the above myth. And even worse is the story of people who have kept the secret in their families for untold generations , I wonder have those people ever played chinese whispers ?

Also someone mentioned the three-fold law , which is one of the most integral beliefs involved with modern day wicca , so just out of interest isnt all that hatred and vengeance going to have some kind of nasty psychic backlash ? Or perhaps those people just like the idea of being martyrs.

However this is a role-playing forum and this kind of discussion really has no place , I would add my voice to the side which says that Tom Hanks is an evil oppressor is laughable , as one person already pointed out he is an actor. And if anyone wants to continue the above discussion of modern day wicca further than please just mail me at micm@desktop.ie . And to forestall the "oh you nasty hateful catholic bastard" responses , I have been an agnostic pagan for several years now , I merely cant see why people cant use a religious belief system as a means for spiritual growth (which is why they exist) as opposed to a platform for launching biggoted attacks of hate , religion is a tool for enlightenment not a metaphysical justification for bigots ( and anyone who says that just because your a christian therefore you suck is just as close-minded and biggoted as someone who says gaming is the tool of satan)

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Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2000-09-15 11:17:31
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Yes, yes... And of course you are willing to take personal responsibility for the Cispantine Gauls and their repeated slaughter of the Romans (the main reason why they were so keen to deal with these savage and ruthless "wiccans" so handily)? Or the practice of human sacrifice amongst the druids, or the repeated raids of pillaging and rape so common amongst the Celtic Irish in "the good old days"? Or the slaughter of millions of innocent Christians by "pagans"? Neither am I.

I would simply say that, regardless of what happened to your ancestors (real or imagined), you do not have the right to treat me like a jerk. That means I ought not to be cast out of a game because of the Inquisition, etc. It also means, indirectly, that I think all this "malarcky" has less to do with any historical injustice than to serve as a justification of deliberate attacks in the here-and-now, against a particular faith that socialists have decided is unacceptable. The correlation between radical left-wing politics and the recent appearance of this "religion" is a bit difficult to swallow at face-value... A certain attitude and behavior seems to have carried over as well.

Just keep it out of the game. It's doing more to ruin the hobby than Hasbro, if you hadn't noticed. "Vampire" notwithstanding, of course.

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Post originally by dr.w at 2000-09-28 16:08:54
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Why did a clever little art


As a socialist and leftist I resent your suggestion that I and my allies are using Wicca to spread our beliefs.

I am an athiest and regard the worship of shrubs to be only marginally more silly than the worship of the carpenter tacked to his own plywood (this applies to the foaming-at-the-mouth snake handlers as well as the more traditional wafer eaters).

As for your many basic factual gaffes:

"Situational Ethics" were devised by Ayn Rand, the patron Saint of the capitalist Libertarians.

Islam does not equal Wicca.

I thought leftists were supposed to be materialists, not spiritualists

There have been no Christians capable of massacre?

And so on and so on

Your post is more typical ignorant American conservative paranoia -- everything I dislike is part of a vast organized conspiracy. The Cold War is over, My RPG McCarthyite.

I don't need a faux religion to promote my pinko commie athiestical beliefs.

Nader in 2000

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Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2000-09-28 23:03:01
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I resent the fact that my "suggestion" is the truth, in that atheistic socialists would have the gall to invent a religion for the express purpose of attacking Christianity. I should not be so surprised at this hawking of "political opiates", being that the Left has become the main operator of the more mundane drug industry of Columbia.

It is true. Marxists are certainly supposed to be non-religious. They also have a well deserved reputation as liars, cheats, and murderers. I have no more qualms in stating this obvious fact than I do in making similar claims about their ideological cousins, the "national socialists". As to Islam not being Wicca, I believe I made that quite clear in my statement - Islam, after all, is an actual religion, whereas Wicca only carries this legal fiction for political purposes.

I did attend a Nader rally recently, by the way. The Wiccans, "Greens", and "international socialists" were all well represented there. The topic of the meeting seemed to be the need to increase recruitment... My questions in regards the candidate's stance on trade with communist China, Vietnam, Cambodia, North Korea, etc. went unpleasantly unanswered. It seems that, although these regimes are "state capitalist" entities, and supposedly only call themselves "communist", the speakers were very reluctant to say anything adverse about their slave camps, appalling human rights, the idea of supplying such nations with economic and technical support, and so on. One would think that, Nader being the "candidate with a difference", he would have taken something of a strong stance on this sort of thing.

If you claim yourself amongst their numbers, I pity you. I certainly do not, and because of it, I (along with the other Christians) were forced out of a long-standing gaming group. That "fact" is something that I can personally attest to; these issues are hardly academic ones to me.

In any case, you state that you do not need a fake religion to promote your beliefs. Good. Please make this clear to your associates, so that similar bouts of "religious intolerance" do not further hinder the pursuit of my hobby.

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Post originally by Joolz at 2001-02-23 05:05:48
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He didn't compare actually, he said Hanks being in an add as appealing as Hitler in one, and I can agree with where he's coming from. Read it again, people where locked up for likeing D&D, that was as a result of a film that the same actor was in because it raised fears that where unfounded. By Role Playing you are, believe it or not, making a political comment. There are people not to far from the White House who would love to ban your games because of what they and others think. There is stuff out there against Role Playing that is simply not true but makes you and anyone else who roleplays look sinister. So be aware.

ObligatoryUserName wrote:
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That someone would actually attempt to compare Tom Hanks and Hitler is incomprehensible. My memory's bad, when did Tom Hanks start a war the left more than 20 million dead? When did Tom Hanks attempt to comit genocide?

Things may have been bad, but they're getting better. How? Not by holding grudges and swearing vendettas. Things are getting better because gaming is becoming mainstream.

I may be out of the loop, but in my opinion, I think 99% of gamers would disagree with your statement that the use Tom Hank's image is offensive.

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Post originally by Joolz at 2001-02-23 05:08:54
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Still doesn't detract from the fact that Hanks WAS in a flagrantly anti RPG film, I may not agree with hateing someone for that but I care about my hobby and don't like to see me and my friends made out to be somthing we a definately not.

Godfather Punk wrote:
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Oh. It's just silly old Pierre again. He forgot to mention he can't stand homosexuals and Tom Hanks got an Oscar for playing the role of a homosexual, so he can't stand Tom Hanks either...

GP

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Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2001-02-23 05:32:16
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I don't want to make a political statement. I want to kill orcs.

Do me a favor, will you? Take your protests and your revolution outside. I'm trying to gain levels in here.

Sheesh.

Now move along, before I harvest you for your experience points.

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Post originally by Joolz at 2001-02-23 05:45:05
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I wasn't making any political statements, and you could get brainwashed for killing orcs, but at least the drugs are free.

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Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2001-02-23 06:01:28
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I am going to buy two pit bulls names "Tom" and "Hank", and sic them on you.

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Post originally by Grip at 2001-03-13 16:00:13
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Verrryyy interesting thread. I have to agree with one of you that said this is no forum for religious discussion but the original posting made a good point. Just recently I have personally witnessed anti D&D stuff in my local newspaper. This crap is never going to go away because everyone has their own opinion. Targeting Christian "fantatics" isn't really fair. I've met people who where not Christians but still anti-gaming. Religion is just one of many excuses for people to bash gaming but I agree that we as gamers should also not promote this bashing. The Tom Hanks thing might be construed as anti-gaming so I would suggest (not demand) that this site change its ad. As for the Wiccan thing... I've never run into these kinds of problems thankfully. I know one person who might consider herself a Wiccan but she never made it a problem. She was also outnumbered by the other Catholics, Atheists, and Agnostics sitting at the table.
Go figure.....
Grip

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Post originally by DaveB at 2001-04-07 01:20:57
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Did I miss something?
Is dr. W a member of the group that threw you out? If not, where in the world do you get "your associates" from? Left-wing politics doesn't make people part of some hive-mind.

Do you know every single Right-Wing Christian in the world? Do you agree with everything they have ever done?

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Post originally by Matthias at 2001-04-07 05:07:06
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As a leftist, would be offended by everything the good Doctor has been saying, were it not the illiterate ramblings of a blithering idiot. The idea that Wicca was manufactured by leftists in order to more successfully proselytize is so inherently stooooopid that I shouldn't acknowledge it (then why am I... I know, I know). The New Age movement (to the extent that I have seen it it - I do not preclude the possibility of devout Wiccans, as my exposure to its practioners has been limited) is one of the most commercial instances of "religion" as I can imagine. "Embrace the Goddess Within You" has as capitalist intent as the big haired televangelist wooing "I personally pray over every check you send." Linking it to Satanism is equally rediculous.
Also, as a 'wafer eater' as our other good doctor puts it, I AM offended by Dr. W's sentiments. Even to the most fiercely secular person, referring to Jesus as "the carpenter nailed on his own plywood", is frankly, disgusting, when you consider what your talking about. This is like referring to Ghandi as a "the stupid peasant too stupid to fight and starving himself to death".
And by "what your talking about", I don't even mean any of the "He died for your sins" stuff. Any body: 'shrub worshiper','wafer eater', 'towel head', 'tummy polisher', ect ect. ect. or an athiest such as yourself can understand that he, regardless of anything else he may have been, was an innocent man executed by the state (actually, if you want to get technical, 'towel heads' as I'm sure you refer to them as don't, because allah would not let his prophet down.Theidea might be a little complex for far right conspiracy theorists as well, i.e., Doc Cruel).
All of this may sound like PC blithering, but please, everyone stop the hatemongering. All people of all faiths are capable of good and evil, Christians are not the only ones who want to censor those 'different' from them (Madeline Murray O'Connor, anyone?), and religious slurs and moronic conspiracy theories get us nowhere.
And finally, anybody who is puzzled at the idea of a Christian Leftist ought try reading the actual Bible...

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Post originally by FXR at 2001-04-08 11:53:07
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Dr Cruel, I agreed with you until you started to talk politics.

First of all, I really can't find the connection betweens wicca and socialism. I really can't. I also fail to see connection betweens socialism and anti-christian, since I'm both a Socialist and a Catholic (in fact, they both have much in common).

Secondly, Marxists and Fascists (nazi per example) are very far form others. I don't claim to be a marxist (to me that political system suffers from the same flaws as capitalism).

Now, if you plan to start a rat about how horrible communists are, I'll state the following acts by "enlighted capitalist democracies backed by US fonds": Pinochet, Batista, and many other latin-american dictators, Taliban (originally supported by US during the Afghan war), Noriega (supported until 1990), South Vietnamese, etc.

I really suggest, we should let go that topic, the fire is gone, let the ashes get cold.

Re: Tom Hanks

My God, people, he plays a role, his character is not him? By the same rationale, Pierre, I suggest you go and lynch anyone that plays a killer, knigfe-wielding bad guy.

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Post originally by Pierre Savoie at 2001-04-08 18:40:47
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> My God, people, he plays a role, his character is not him? By the same rationale, Pierre, I suggest you go and lynch anyone that plays a killer, knife-wielding bad guy.

Sharon Stone was not her role either, but that did not stop radical militant homosexuals from disrupting her hosting of SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE to make the point that they didn't like her portrayal of a lesbian in BASIC INSTINCT.

Frankly, I am now of the opinion that you Dungeons & Dragons players don't deserve saving. You can now be picked off one by one, threatened with job loss, the loss of custody of your children, and so on once you're found out, it will only be meet and proper as far as I am concerned. The public has a right to shield itself from you.

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Post originally by Bret Gillan at 2001-04-08 20:33:55
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"Frankly, I am now of the opinion that you Dungeons & Dragons players don't deserve saving. You can now be picked off one by one, threatened with job loss, the loss of custody of your children, and so on once you're found out, it will only be meet and proper as far as I am concerned. The public has a right to shield itself from you."

Heehee. This is the funniest thing I've read all day. Thanks Pierre. :D

Peace,
Bret

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Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2001-04-09 07:33:04
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Why did a clever little art

(I wouldn’t know. This is not my area of expertise.)

As a socialist and leftist I resent your suggestion that I and my allies are using Wicca to spread our beliefs.

(Not that this would stop you from engaging in the practice. However I’m certain that you resent me communicating this obvious connection to the “unconscious” masses.)

I am an athiest and regard the worship of shrubs to be only marginally more silly than the worship of the carpenter tacked to his own plywood (this applies to the foaming-at-the-mouth snake handlers as well as the more traditional wafer eaters).

(I never implied that your sort had respect for your dupes. My position was that a fake religion has been devised especially to attack established religions – not that the Left believed in “Mother Earth” or anything else. In fact, from my experience those on the Left appear to be quite unconcerned with anything other than their own narrow self-interests, whatever they may loudly proclaim to the contrary.)

As for your many basic factual gaffes:

"Situational Ethics" were devised by Ayn Rand, the patron Saint of the capitalist Libertarians.

(I am not an Objectivist. However, comparing this strict, "secular Calvinistic" system of morality to a form of situational ethics is patently ridiculous. I doubt it to be an honest mistake on your part.)

Islam does not equal Wicca.

(Now you are being deliberately obtuse.)

I thought leftists were supposed to be materialists, not spiritualists

(Traditionally they are. But, as was stated by one of your constituency when asked, "...what's at stake is all those billions spent on religion...")

There have been no Christians capable of massacre?

(As I am wont to tell people I know, it was not the “white” people that enslaved blacks in the Americas – it was my people, in particular my family – on my Portuguese father’s side - and others like them, that shipped African slaves to the Americas to work plantations in Brazil and the Caribbean, etc. After the Reconquesta, which involved some of the most brutal instances of Christian atrocities, including the famous “auto-da-fe” of the Inquisition, African Arabs eagerly sold as many as they could catch to my esteemed ancestors. I am well aware of our historical record, among many others. This sort of hobby certainly attracts those with an interest in history.

I have, however, never sold a slave, or owned one. I have not killed a Turk, despite the urgings of my grandfather, and have no intention to do so – I’ve served with Turks on occasion, and have found them quite decent people. What is the case among them is that, officially, the Armenian genocide in a “non-event” – it did not officially happen, and references to it are evaded or scoffed. So also my account of Wicca in regards to anyone on the Left, which is first-hand and based on personal experience and long acquaintance.)

And so on and so on.

(Indeed. Ad infinitum, for it seems there is no limit to the deceit. I shall not relate my college encounters with professors, “activists”, etc., however, as we are discussing role-playing games on this forum.)

Your post is more typical ignorant American conservative paranoia -- everything I dislike is part of a vast organized conspiracy. The Cold War is over, My RPG McCarthyite.

(Not in my old playing group. Because I did not have the proper religious and political credentials, I was “pushed out”. No influential senator was involved in the process, however, so I have no fancy name to call it – “blacklisting” will have to serve.)

I don't need a faux religion to promote my pinko commie athiestical beliefs.

(Then why use one?)

Nader in 2000

(Not likely, as the election is over. But of course you were robbed by a “right-wing conspiracy”, weren’t you? One never knows, yes? And so on.

I’ve no further desire to exchange vitriol with Leftists. They already have an exceedingly bad reputation with me, and have almost universally proven to be deliberately dense when cornered. It is not worth the effort to discuss politics with such people, and so I’d prefer to not bother. I simply want to play my games in peace, without having to endure the necessary “indoctrination” first. Furthermore, I do not want to be banned from playing groups as soon as it is found out I am a Catholic. I’ve seen gaming become politicized over time, know very well where this is going, and do not appreciate some abusive stranger telling me it’s “all in my head” when I witnessed this very dynamic first-hand.

I do not appreciate being called an idiot and a liar either. Nor do I expect I’d have a warm reception in your playing group. In fact, your rather vitriolic and emotional response rather proves my point, don’t you think?)

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Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2001-04-09 07:44:37
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Nor are whites part of a "hive mind" either. But I would not hesitate, were I a minority victim of racism, to make a point of my experience to those people I met. I also do not think my urgings to create a more tolerant atmosphere at their functions would be considered "wrong" - except, perhaps, by a racist.

I also do not feel the need to defend the entire history of Christianity every time I speak up about being abused about my beliefs. I'd rather not have the situation repeatedly thrust into my face actually, as my main purpose at a role-playing game is a few hours of relaxation. I'm certainly not going to ever have that at my old role-playing group again; it appears also, given the reception I've received here, that the trend of intolerance towards Christians in gaming will continue unabated.

So much for that.

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Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2001-04-09 07:54:40
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I don't want to be "saved" by evangelists, Left-wing or otherwise. I want to play AD&D. Hack and slash. No politics, not "indoctrination", no "socially conscious explorations of the crimes of our culture", no use of gaming mechanics for a Derrida-like deconstruction of the Catholic "mythos". No punitive actions "out-of-game" for not behaving in accordance with the necessary Leftist lesson being taught that day, "volunteering" to serve at some Leftist function or other, not lending the DM money, etc. I want to take my longsword down into a dungeon, have at it with the ubiquitous orcs, and emerge with my treasure. That's it.

Honestly, I don't see how this sort of behavior can be defended. I'm appalled.

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Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2001-04-09 07:59:51
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You're the sort of person who'd be attacked by my old group - because, like with Objectivists, agreement does not get you off the hook unless it's unequivocal and "all the way". I never said I was against "social justice"; I would argue that Leftists are.

My statement in Wiccans, based on my personal experience and research, still stands. I'm not a particular enemy of the people, however, and am as happy as you are to leave the whole issue out of the game.

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Post originally by Chad Lubrecht at 2001-04-09 11:01:20
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>You're the sort of person who'd be attacked by my old group - >because, like with Objectivists, agreement does not get you off the >hook unless it's unequivocal and "all the way". I never said I was >against "social justice"; I would argue that Leftists are.

>My statement in Wiccans, based on my personal experience and >research, still stands. I'm not a particular enemy of the people, >however, and am as happy as you are to leave the whole issue out of >the game.

Does your personal experience extend beyond experiences with this
one particular group of Wiccans? Admitedly, I don't know alot of
Wiccans, but the ones I do never felt compelled to convert me
for my own good. I'd say you probably ran into an exception.
There are nuts in every group and you can't go judging all
Wiccans, or all Christians or all whatever on the actions of
just a few.

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Post originally by Chris Goodwin at 2001-04-09 11:01:26
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Drac? Is that you?

Not Drac, long-ago poster on the rec.games.frp.* groups? Couldn't be.

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Post originally by Bret Gillan at 2001-04-09 11:49:19
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As an ex-Wiccan, I have known quite a few. I've never known them to be prone to converting people, but nearly all of them seem to have an anti-Christian sentiment, at times bordering on closed-mindedness.

Peace,
Bret

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Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2001-04-10 06:24:18
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I'm still a Catholic myself, despite some nastiness at my church. I spoke up once about the silliness of their "abortion" stance (they had a public showing of the "Silent Scream" and an open invite to parishioners; they made the mistake of asking my opinion, and I made the mistake of giving it to them). Because of it, I wasn't allowed to be the sponsor at my sister's confirmation. Partly because of THAT, my sister became a feminist - we aren't on friendly terms, because I'm still a Catholic!

The world seems every day to be becoming more and more politicized. I had always been able to depend on my game for a break from it - right up until the "Wicca" thing. I know that there's a lot of infighting going on these days, and I'm pretty clear on the teams at my age - the Wiccans aren't the only players on the field, but they are certainly one of them, and their politics are decidedly Leftist. The Catholics have their own axe to grind as well. I just want it kept out of my games is all... I get enough of that during the day.

That's why I don't play AD&D at church, after all.

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Post originally by BlackHat Matt at 2001-05-10 11:05:27
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Goodness.
Of course Wicca was manufactured. All religions are manufactured. That does not make their core values (from "Do no harm" to "Do unto others..." and so on) any less valid.
Of course die-hard Wiccans tend to be political. I also see bumper stickers that advertise "We vote Pro-life". Religion (not faith) and politics evolve together, most often. Read your Bible and check out all the little digs the authors take a neighboring nations and tribes; it's a highly political book.
And, understand that Wicca, like all religions, evolved and continues to do so. I'm aware that much of the religion as it stands stems from Gardner and what he could dig up, that he fabricated much of it and swiped some from Kabbalsim. So what? I read books on the subject, I write my own rituals, and if I don't understand something, I change it.
A Wiccan who tries to drag another person into his/her faith is no better than a Christian, Muslim, or Martian who does the same thing. That kind of coercion is against the ethics of Wicca (as it's usually presented), and claiming to know the "right" way to worship (or to role-play, for that matter) is the worst kind of arrogance, IMHO.
However, ridiculing someone for their beliefs and lumping everyone who identifies him/herself as Wiccan into the same psuedo-political stew is not only arrogant, it's irresponsible and patently untrue.

-BlackHat Matt
www.geocities.com/blackhatmatt

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Post originally by Dodger at 2001-06-05 18:09:32
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Pagan stole your girlfriendm eh?

Can the retarded conspiracy crap and hate-mongering, @!#$.

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Post originally by Dodger at 2001-06-05 18:12:05
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I cannot see how your hatemongering can be defended.

Honestly.

Hey! Is there some sort of admin listening who can ban this jerk?

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Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2001-06-06 04:20:48
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Thank you, for honoring my integrity so. And of course, for your support.

When Leftists and their ilk "can" their outrages, I'll be happy to stop complaining about them.

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Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2001-06-06 04:23:22
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I relate an honest account, one of many. Considering the ubiquity of these incidents, do you think simply silencing people like me is enough?

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Post originally by Alex Case at 2001-07-03 21:40:23
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Part of the problem is that Christianity has one posterboy in the eyes of non christians: Jerry Fallwell. The reason being is that many people do not consider Catholics to be christian. One of my friends who is not catholic has to be occasionally reminded that catholics are christians. So, if the posterboy for christianity was Fallwell, and you beleaved that all Christians were like him, wouldn't you hate christians too?

Bret Gillan wrote:
-------------------------------
Dr. Cruel, you voiced something that I've been seeing more and more, not only from Wiccans, but from atheists, even Buddhists. There seems to be an enormous anti-Christian movement starting. It's rather frightening.

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Post originally by Alex Case at 2001-07-03 21:46:42
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By the by, what branch of the Christian Church are you? Let me guess, Southern Baptist?

Dr. Cruel wrote:
-------------------------------
Thank you, for honoring my integrity so. And of course, for your support.

When Leftists and their ilk "can" their outrages, I'll be happy to stop complaining about them.

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Post originally by Alex Case at 2001-07-03 21:54:52
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Now remember, a fully trained pit bull is 500 gp and there is a minimum 6 week bonding period. You'll probably go for the 5 sp one and have a result similar to the KODT strip "Dances with Pitbulls"

Dr. Cruel wrote:
-------------------------------
I am going to buy two pit bulls names "Tom" and "Hank", and sic them on you.

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Post originally by Alex Case at 2001-07-03 21:59:30
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So, your're against Catholics, Role-Players, or using any monsters other then orcs (Personally, I prefer Kobolds). Is that correct?

Dr. Cruel wrote:
-------------------------------
I don't want to be "saved" by evangelists, Left-wing or otherwise. I want to play AD&D. Hack and slash. No politics, not "indoctrination", no "socially conscious explorations of the crimes of our culture", no use of gaming mechanics for a Derrida-like deconstruction of the Catholic "mythos". No punitive actions "out-of-game" for not behaving in accordance with the necessary Leftist lesson being taught that day, "volunteering" to serve at some Leftist function or other, not lending the DM money, etc. I want to take my longsword down into a dungeon, have at it with the ubiquitous orcs, and emerge with my treasure. That's it.

Honestly, I don't see how this sort of behavior can be defended. I'm appalled.

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Post originally by Alex Case at 2001-07-03 22:04:43
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If you are Roman Catholic, then I am ashamed of you. You are PO'd at the church because you are against Abortion and you weren't allowed to sponsor your sister's confirmation. You are showing a level of tolerance at a level of the Southern Baptists. You are a disgrace to the Role-Playing Community and the Catholic Church. I hereby bestow on you the Hubcap of Shame.

Dr. Cruel wrote:
-------------------------------
I'm still a Catholic myself, despite some nastiness at my church. I spoke up once about the silliness of their "abortion" stance (they had a public showing of the "Silent Scream" and an open invite to parishioners; they made the mistake of asking my opinion, and I made the mistake of giving it to them). Because of it, I wasn't allowed to be the sponsor at my sister's confirmation. Partly because of THAT, my sister became a feminist - we aren't on friendly terms, because I'm still a Catholic!

The world seems every day to be becoming more and more politicized. I had always been able to depend on my game for a break from it - right up until the "Wicca" thing. I know that there's a lot of infighting going on these days, and I'm pretty clear on the teams at my age - the Wiccans aren't the only players on the field, but they are certainly one of them, and their politics are decidedly Leftist. The Catholics have their own axe to grind as well. I just want it kept out of my games is all... ....

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Post originally by Alex Case at 2001-07-03 22:05:15
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If you are Roman Catholic, then I am ashamed of you. You are PO'd at the church because you are against Abortion and you weren't allowed to sponsor your sister's confirmation. You are showing a level of tolerance at a level of the Southern Baptists. You are a disgrace to the Role-Playing Community and the Catholic Church. I hereby bestow on you the Hubcap of Shame.

Dr. Cruel wrote:
-------------------------------
I'm still a Catholic myself, despite some nastiness at my church. I spoke up once about the silliness of their "abortion" stance (they had a public showing of the "Silent Scream" and an open invite to parishioners; they made the mistake of asking my opinion, and I made the mistake of giving it to them). Because of it, I wasn't allowed to be the sponsor at my sister's confirmation. Partly because of THAT, my sister became a feminist - we aren't on friendly terms, because I'm still a Catholic!

The world seems every day to be becoming more and more politicized. I had always been able to depend on my game for a break from it - right up until the "Wicca" thing. I know that there's a lot of infighting going on these days, and I'm pretty clear on the teams at my age - the Wiccans aren't the only players on the field, but they are certainly one of them, and their politics are decidedly Leftist. The Catholics have their own axe to grind as well. I just want it kept out of my games is all... ....

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Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2001-07-06 04:37:42
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I was thinking of using strays. That way, if I collected them in groups of ten I could use the special Hackmaster "mob" rule.

That hasn't been removed in Third Edition - has it?

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Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2001-07-06 04:55:37
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I've heard it before. It's called "liberation theology".

Thanks again for the encouragement. I'm glad to see you empathize with my concerns, and have decided to add something constructive to what I've already stated. It's folks like you that made gaming such an anticipated and welcome joy in my old group.

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Post originally by Rick Heney at 2001-09-05 15:09:48
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Dr. Cruel wrote:
-------------------------------
I would simply say that, regardless of what happened to your ancestors (real or imagined), you do not have the right to
treat me like a jerk.... It also means,
indirectly, that I think all this "malarcky" has less to do with any historical injustice than to serve as a justification
of deliberate attacks in the here-and-now, against a particular faith that socialists have decided is unacceptable...
-------------------------------

It's so interesting to hear you say this. I wish the majority of Americans would take this attitude. (I am an American myself, so don't think I'm just picking on them.) It seems I am constantly being held accountable for something that happened to *someones* ancestors, c.f., all the rap music about how the "man" is holding the "brothers" down. Ugh. And the attitude some of these people have towards me. I'm just Ordinary Joe. I never owned any slaves. Neither did my parents or their parents (before that they were in Scotland and Ireland). But, no matter how progressive the laws get, or how much "help" (read money) is directed into neighborhoods that are sub-poverty level, ancient history is constantly cited as a reason for hatred of white people. Why can't everybody just be nice to each other?

My 2c.

Rick Heney
Frontier Horizons is at http://home.hot.rr.com/frontierhorizons
A new science fiction game with little setting, yet...

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Post originally by Pierre Savoie at 2001-09-05 16:51:37
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Your ancestors were from Ireland? Good Lord, man, the American Negroes owe you reparations.
You see, while the research shows that the American Negroes were getting adequate calories and a balanced diet for heavy farm work, your ancestors went through the Irish Potato Famine. Black emancipation supporter Frederick Douglass actually visited Ireland in the 1840's, and he even said that, seeing all this suffering among the (Whites) there, the emaciated concentration-camp-like faces, the nascent cannibalism, he "almost felt ashamed" to campaign for Black freedoms (according to THE END OF RACISM by Dinesh D'Souza, 1995). This is a clear example of the oppressive economic system that causes inequitable distribution of food, leaving more on Black tables than on White! You should sue!

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Post originally by KingInYellow at 2001-09-05 22:56:59
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few points.

First, I agree that Wicca did not come from Satanism.

Second, I disagree that have no connection to "the christian devil" (sic) means a thing here. he said Wicca came from Satanic Practices, not the devil. Fact is, both a roots in Victorian Hellfire clubs, so that makes sense. Your right, tho, it did not come from Satanism, just a common root.

Third, the "wise womens" relation to Wicca is grossly overstated. Most came from Practices, some rediscovered, most invinted, in the 19th century.

Fourth: Your right. To go out and hate a religon is aginst Wicca.

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Post originally by KingInYellow at 2001-09-05 22:58:45
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There is an intellegent response.

Musch of what he says, while stated cruelly, has a basis in fact

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Post originally by KingInYellow at 2001-09-05 23:00:41
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Most of the most ardent anti-wiccans I know are athiests. At least, those who enjoy attacking it the most are. It's harder to defend when attacking your oppoent's faith is not an option.

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Post originally by KingInYellow at 2001-09-05 23:04:16
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Very intellegent words there. Worth listing to, and considering.

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Post originally by blackguard at 2001-12-13 22:43:00
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Modern Wicca and Modern Druidism are 99.9% invention, DM Nick. They are based upon many 18th century occult writings (combined with British folklore) that gained enough notoriety to attract followers and spawn a movement.

In researching the Celts, Gauls and the tribes of the Britons during the Roman occupation, I discovered that there is actually very little information regarding these groups. Most of what we know has to be pieced together from archaological artifacts, references from Roman sources such as Julius Caesar (who observed druids directly and commented upon them), or by dredging the centuries of Christian tradition for hints of something that came before. The culture was nearly 100% oral, and so no basic histories survive, let alone any treatises on their culture or religion.

If the culture in which Druidism (and supposedly, Wicca) flourished can only be pieced together with inference and sketchy archaeological information, how can anyone say with confidence that the 'druids did this' or the 'wiccans did that'. The point is that they can't. There is no reputable historical documents that support any of the druidic or wiccan practices of today. I can put on a couple of postcards the information about the druids that a decent historian would consider reputable. I can put the information concerning wicca on the proverbial head of a pin - there isn't any until the 1900s.

After reading literally dozens of books on the Celts, Druidism and Witchcraft from actual historians (and not just people involved in the movement who obviously have a vested interest in promoting some legitimacy), I cannot find anything that provides proof that a 'wiccan' religion existed in history. The term 'witch' or its near equivalent exists in literally hundreds of cultures using dozens upon dozens of languages, so there is abundant referential material concerning 'witchcraft'. There is nothing on 'wicca', however.

Here is a trick I have found that works really well to discover how old an idea is. Pick up a book on Wicca and find the oldest reference in the citations list. Read that reference to see if it applies, and if it does, find the oldest reference in its citation list. Eventually, you come to the 'original books' or the dozen or so seminal writers that spawn a movement. With Wicca and Druidism, these are Jules Michelet, Margaret Murray, Charles G. Leland, Aleister Crowley, and Sir James Frazer. There are a few others I can't remember, but you get the idea. Note that none of them were born before 1800.

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Post originally by Dr. Cruel at 2001-12-14 04:46:47
Converted from Phorums BB System

Personally, I'm not particularly antagonistic towards animists or nature worshippers. I don't consider (most?) Wiccans part of that set. The essential element of practitioners seems to be what the Left would call a "higher degree of political consciousness", which translates into me being subject to their evangelical atheism and anti-Christianity during a game. It's effectively chased me away from the traditional face-to-face roleplaying genre, which upsets me to no end.

The Wiccans I knew were much more involved with Leftist radical politics than they were students of prehistoric nature cults in Western Europe. People who really know about such things tend to play Runequest, and are a lot less offensive than the supposed "witches" ("goth" or otherwise) I've had to deal with in the past. In any case, I don't play role-playing games as a means of political or spiritual indoctrination, for myself or anyone else.

Whatever happened to the simple dungeon delve, huh? At what point did gaming become a vehicle for political advertizements? The lich is very upset.