Bass Ackwards Hobby Market

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Post originally by JJ Kahrs at 2002-07-04 22:15:13
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You really hit it on the nail with this one, Sandy. Why is it that people spawn new companies when really all they want to do is develop creator-owned works? Is it because existing publishers won't entertain the idea of publishing works that aren't in-house or specificly contracted by them?

Say I'm Joe Gumby RPG Creator sitting down with my Hot New Orginal RPG Idea(tm), and I want it to see print. The current wisdom is to do what you had mentioned and found your own company, having to deal with the tax and legal nightmares that it entails along with all of the other garbage on top of that. Why couldn't Joe just go to an existing publisher and talk to them:

Joe: Hi. I have an RPG that I want to see printed and distributed.

Publisher: You and thousands of others. Buzz off.

Joe: Ah, but I have fat sacks of money. If I give them to you, will you handle all of this other stuff like finding a printer, talking to distributors, storing the product, etc etc while I go off and develop future content?

You've gotten me thinking, and the more I think about the idea of creating a new company just to get something to market the sillier it seems.

-JJ Kahrs

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Post originally by MetalMan at 2002-07-05 08:27:12
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... and if you find a publisher willing to do that for you - you've also just created a vanity press.

Publisher: Absolutely. You hand me money and I'll make sure that your book is published.

There needs to be some standard of quality involved. In other words, a publisher is going to need to say, "this is crap and I'm not going to have it associated with my reputation" if it doesn't meet their standards.

The big trick is to find someone willing to agree to your terms and to objectively evaluate the work being presented.


BTW any d20 print publisher who would be interested in such a deal - drop me a line :)

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Post originally by Marc A. Vezina at 2002-07-05 08:49:09
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JJ Kahrs wrote:
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>Why is it that people spawn new companies when really all they want to do is develop creator-owned works?

Heck, why do they want to publish at all, when they can just put them on the Net? :)

>Is it because existing publishers won't entertain the idea of publishing works that aren't in-house or specificly contracted by them?

Not always. Most creators just want complete control over their creation, even if it hurts them. <shrug>

>Why couldn't Joe just go to an existing publisher and talk to them [snip]

This is already possible. Golden Pillars Publishing (GRG), for example, or Magnum Opus (GoO).

In most cases, established publishers turn down such submissions because, frankly, a) most of the time they are not very good or original, and b) the creator wants to keep all rights.

Note, the latter is a correct prerogative; you created it, you own it. However, why should a company spend time and effort promoting something they don't own? You spend all these years and efforts pushing "GameX: the RPG" -- and then it gets big, and the creator sells it to WotC for big bucks and retires, and you're screwed. :)

>the more I think about the idea of creating a new company just to get something to market the sillier it seems.

It is. In the current game industry catalog, there are 300+ companies offering games, miniatures and accessories. Think of all the duplicated accounting, shipping, marketing...

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Post originally by aeon at 2002-07-06 17:00:37
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What's needed, then, is for someone to start a company, or a non-profit, or a loose collaboration of existing ultra-small press publishers, which would provide accounting, distribution, legal advice, etc. to all these individuals while allowing them to maintain control over their own works.

The central company benefits because it immediately has several hundred individuals looking for assistance, and even if it only takes a small slice off the top without taking control, there's profit to be made. And since most of the services needed are basically identical amongst each company (DBA, Business license, printing, distribution, maybe an online storefront and a website, etc.), it would be relatively easy to come up with a flat rate for such a service.

Legal and accounting fees could probably come down too since most of what's being generated is boilerplate, cutting down on hourly fees and research. So you only need one guy (who'd probably be happy to get all the work). The hardest part would probably be dealing with taxes, since it has to come in one end and then get filtered out to everyone who's got a game in the bucket, but that's what tax preparers get paid for.

It's certainly not exciting work, since the other guys are doing all the creative stuff, but it would definitely be a big hit if it was done right.

Or am I being naive?

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Post originally by SteelCaress at 2002-07-09 00:02:08
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Basically, most companies are looking for someone to write something for their "House" system. How many non-d20 submissions do you think WotC is going to look at? I can confidently say *None*. It was the same back in the old days when Chaosium was publishing more than just Call of Cthulhu and Stormbinger (and how many systems did they publish NOT based on their Basic Role Playing System?), same with GDW before T$R bought them out, same with West End Games (who can't afford to publish much anyway), and about the only companies out there looking for something different may be Atlas Games and Hogshead...though dealing with the UK from overseas in the US from where I'm writing brings its own host of problems. And with Palladium games...do you really think Kevin Siembieda is going to want to publish anything other than his system?

I know, I know, you're saying "What about giant companies like FASA who had very different systems in Earthdawn and in Shadowrun, as well as Battletech?" Let me tell you that they already had a HUGE amount of material for those lines before they ever saw print (except for BattleTech, but that was old school). They were pretty much in-house projects to begin with; it was lucky that Shadowrun caught on well enough to attract new blood.

Nowadays, to get decent distribution you almost have to go with someone's "house" system.

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Post originally by Sam at 2002-08-02 11:27:36
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This is a damn good idea, aeon. I wonder if anyone else is thinking this, and if it would be a viable thing. I mean, I see people like Impressions and Wizard's Attic doing the distributing, and wonder if there's any way to bundle some of the other services into one item, or if people like Aldo and/or Eric want to add someone to bundle those services with...

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Post originally by LJ Steele at 2002-12-08 07:03:52
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> Legal and accounting fees could probably come down too since most of > what's being generated is boilerplate, cutting down on hourly fees > and research. So you only need one guy (who'd probably
> be happy to get all the work).

A reasonably bright person can do much of their own basic incorporation stuff from a help and form book available in any book shop. One can also do niftier legal work with access to the form encylopedias available at most law libraries (law schools, court houses).

Anyone who can create a min-maxed Champions character or a GURPS vehicle from scratch should be able to handle a simple partnership or corporation creation. (Heck anyone who understands GURPS Vehicles and Champions in depth may want to consider a career in tax law.) Where it gets complex is maintaining the thing and/or doing non-standard things with the forms.

Simple incorporation and advice is easy. The problem with the one-stop lawyer is that (1) the companies may be doing business in dozens of states - each of which requires a lawyer licensed to practice in that state; (2) it is possible at some point one will have conflicts of interest between companies - and that gets ugly.

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Post originally by Sandy Antunes at 2002-12-09 10:52:06
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Hi

>Simple incorporation and advice is easy. The problem with the one-stop lawyer is

... that lawyers are expensive. Go with an accountant. They're cheaper, forming corps is just a standard thing for them, and they can provide you with financial advice on structure.

Accountants also make suggestions and take more responsibility for their work, whereas lawyers are there to advise you of risk and implement what you ask for. Big difference, to me. Lawyers are like your royal advisor, while accountants are your General.

And, accountants can do your tax stuff for you, cheaply, without screwups.

For example, for my corp, $250 covered incorporation (including advising me on which sort to form, how to do my books, help with taxes, filling out the paperwork, and first year's tax return). Saved me oodles of time and oodles of possible IRS problems :)

Cheers,
Sandy
sandy@rpg.net