A Question.

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Post originally by Cossack at 2003-05-09 09:05:57
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Now, when one of us lowlies makes a comment along the lines of "RPGs are expensive" the game designers come out of the woodwork and flame the living bejeezus out of us.

Where are they now?

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Post originally by Sandy Antunes at 2003-05-09 11:22:32
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Hi,

>Where are they now?

Obviously, not reading this column, making me 'lower than the lowlies' :)

Alternately, a more ego-salving explanation for me is that they took my attitude of 'Man, RPGs are too expensive, I think I'll go buy some more' as either ironic or at least, from their point of view, profitable enough not to quibble.

Cheers,
Sandy
freelance

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Post originally by Guy McLimore at 2003-05-12 07:49:59
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> Now, when one of us lowlies makes a comment along the lines of "RPGs
> are expensive" the game designers come out of the woodwork and
> flame the living bejeezus out of us.
>
> Where are they now?

Don't look at me, pal... I think they're too expensive, too...

Seriously, I think the entry cost for many RPGs is too high to create a good flow of new gamemasters into the hobby. (And without GMs, you *got* no hobby, friendsandneighbors...) But most RPGs being released aren't INTENDED for new players. The "bigger and slicker is better" movement aims squarely preaches only to the converted. Newbies don't buy $50 hardbacks.

Which may be why the stuff bringing the newbies into the stores these days is more like clickybase minis games than RPGs. Is there any significant bleed-over into the RPG arena from these new players? Maybe not. So the question remains, how CAN we bring new players in and make new GMs of them? Ideas?

Guy McLimore
guymc@microtactix.com
MicroTactx Games

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Post originally by The Old Geezer at 2003-05-12 08:44:06
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Any hobby is expensive if you're serious about it.

Go price out model railroad stuff
(First-quality plastic boxcar - $25
First-quality plastic diesel - $60 to $150)

Or model airplanes -- that 1/24 scale P-51D Mustang that just pranged probably had nearly $200 in radio gear alone.

And "serious" model rockets -- those that reach 10,000 feet or more - can cost over $100 PER FLIGHT.

Golf clubs? Your local sports store can sell you a $2000 set of golf clubs, for AMATEURS!

And a sailboat runs about $10,000 per foot.

And ask Sandy how much his woodworking tools cost.

So, any hobby can be expensive. RPGing is cheaper than most -- see a post in another thread referring to Critical Miss and their editorial on the subject.

In fact, go check out Critical Miss anyway.

-- Old Geezer

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Post originally by Mister Thompson at 2003-05-14 04:01:50
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We'll do it the same way we've always done it. Give the newbies their first few games utterly free, let 'em borrow the books long enough for them to realize how indispensible a copy of their own would be, and then tell them that the only book they'll need will run them somewhat less than the cost of a decent videogame.

In a way, corporations have finally found the most evil way to advertise; jack the prices high enough that the end user has to do all the footwork. --wry grin--

--Mister Thompson

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Post originally by Greg at 2003-05-14 17:34:45
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Try Home Theater...you can spend $100,000 in the blink of an eye.

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Post originally by Tadeusz at 2003-06-05 10:54:27
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Try the Henry Ford method. While everybody around you (General Motors) is raising prices to the sky leaving you room to raise yours; instead slash those prices to the bone. Ford turned what was a rich man's toy and a small market into a upper and then just regular middle class necessity with this tactic. If you want to expand a market; cut prices radically. If you want to knock D&D off the top of the hill; cut prices(that's for those who are strong already). For those lower on the pyramid, also cut prices, but don't plan on taking out D&D yet; plan on taking out those who should be taking out D&D.

You also have to find a way to deal with the learning curve because that is one big thing that slows down experienced gamers("not another system to learn"), and probably throws off the pop-in-a-DVD crowd who we want to convert from passive to active entertainment.

And for those who say other hobbies are more expensive; we are not competing with sailboats and piloting as hobbies. We are competing with DVD's, movie night at the cinema, and plain old satellite TV.
The typical gamer is not wealthy enough to get into plopping a hundred bucks down for a brief moment of glory.

If you decide that you want the railroad modeller type market, then let me suggest you design your games for them. That probably means going back to the wargaming roots of the hobby. Getting away from the lightweight rule sets so currently beloved, and moving toward an obsessive nitpicking(I may be unfairly maligning RR modellers here, if so sorry. It does look really cool.) rulebook with lots of details.

Me, I want a simple cheap game system that can do a lot of different powers and skills, template and point-buying and random in the same game chargen that is quick, lifepaths(!!), plug-in rules for modifying to a different genre(with lots of genres listed), and some adventure creation system that a novice GM can use to make adventures(probably a card system of plot twists).

Now, I'm reasonably happy with my Vampire and Mage and my D&D3e, and my freeformed Multiverser(multi-dimensional goodness), and I still want to get Champions 4e back out to bash villains. Traveller and BESM sit around the house begging to be used. So I guess, I don't really need a new system. But the hobby could use one.

Tadeusz

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Post originally by jimbo at 2003-06-05 17:52:05
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Yes, I have found that when bringing in a newby to play that we let them play their first couple of games (which are of course free, except for the time) and then lend them a copy of the rulebook (or setting book, or WTF you prefer to call it). From then, it is usually a short journey until they have bought their own copy, and then the evil cycle of buying expensive RPG books has found a new victim .......

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Post originally by Sandy Antunes at 2003-06-06 10:06:20
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Hi,

The thing about pricing is, it's tricky. The reason for the "price is 5 times publisher's cost" rule is that, if you set it 4x cost, you get _zero_ profit. It's not 'make a smaller profit margin', it's "can you recover costs at all".

After the discount to distributor and shipping cost, the publisher is only receiving perhaps 30-40% of the cost of the book at best. From this they have to recover their print costs and the cost for writers, art, editors, etc. If it cost $2500 to make a book and $3000 to print 1000 copies, at a price point of $25 (cost per book of $5), and the run sells half the copies (and 500 copies is decent sales these days, alas), the publisher is getting maybe 40%*500*$25=$5000, less their $5000 in expenses... oh oh.

One can sell a book at minimal profit, as a loss-leader (i.e. small loss per book with the hopes of making it up in subsequent sales), or at a 'reasonable' profit. With publishing, 'reasonable profit' has to guess at the print run size.

Even WotC didn't go for 'loss leader' with 3E, but settled on a smaller profit margin to keep that price low, so they could sell their other books at a slightly better markup. At a quarter million copies or more, a small loss would have been difficult even for WotC/Hasbro.

Smaller publishers aren't ensured of decent print run sales, so they need to have a reasonable 'break even' point (i.e. minimum number of copies to sell to recover costs), and then rely on good sales to provide profits.

So there's not much room for 'slashing prices to the bone', since given the vagualities of the market, the prices are already often slashed.

With epublishing, there isn't any print cost but there are still distribution (i.e. emall percentages) and creation fees, as well as ordinary business expenses (like maintaining a website, doing taxes, etc). So even epublishers can't go too low and be viable as a business.

If you're in it for ego and willing to take a loss, by all means lose money on each book. But in the end that route is bad for your customers-- 'cause you'll burn out early and not be able to support the line. A publisher making profits is a publisher that can keep pleasing their customer!

Cheers,
Sandy
freelance

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Post originally by Timothy Moerke at 2003-06-06 11:27:03
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Guy McLimore wrote:
-------------------------------
Don't look at me, pal... I think they're too expensive, too...

Seriously, I think the entry cost for many RPGs is too high to create a good flow of new gamemasters into the hobby. (And without GMs, you *got* no hobby, friendsandneighbors...) But most RPGs being released aren't INTENDED for new players. The "bigger and slicker is better" movement aims squarely preaches only to the converted. Newbies don't buy $50 hardbacks.
--------------------------------

I think you have a good point here. It seems like publishers are mostly going after the same market, rather than trying to reach new ones. If they're going to do the latter, then you're right: the $50 hardback won't cut it.

I flinch at buying books like that, and I'm thoroughly committed to the hobby. IMO, there tends to be too much attention paid to flashiness and looks in games these days. And when people say these are necessary to sell games, I always answer them with, "Cheapass Games." They're about as far from flashy as you can get, but they don't seem to be hurting as a company.

Timothy

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Post originally by Amanda at 2003-06-18 19:11:04
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What are some of the things Monks make....? I need to know asap because i need it in 1 hour....

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Post originally by Simon Hibbs at 2003-07-08 09:13:13
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>If you want to expand a market; cut prices radically. If you want to knock D&D off the top of the hill;
>cut prices(that's for those who are strong already).

Of course you're too late, because WOTC already did this with the
initial release of D&D3E. From what I can tell it worked too,
many of my friends with only a passing interest in D&D3E picked
up the core books at the introductory price, and probably made
up the profit margin for WOTC with a few follow-on purchases.

ANy attempt to repeat this tactic by a smaller publisher would
be far too little, far too late. 3E is already very firmly
entrenched and I'm glad. While I'm not a huge fan of the D20
system, it does seem to have re-invigorated the hobby and
without a major publisher putting out material with high
production values to the mass market, I think every sector of
the hobby would be a heck of a lot smaller than it is now.


Simon Hibbs