your ideas wanted

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Post originally by Charlie Dunwoody at 2004-10-15 04:23:21
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Here's a sneak preview of a part of column four. Ken Tompkins was concerned that the hook was too vague. I modified it, but it still wasn't enough. With a lot of discussion, this is the hook with which we're currently working.

From Column 4:
"During the discussion of these roleplaying and rules questions, Ken Tompkins suggested that our hook still wasn't strong enough. It lacked heart. So I gathered all the ideas being bandied around and refined the hook again.

The hook refined: Dragonsuns is a world of perpetual twilight where dragon kings vie for control of the world while a dangerous evil hides in the shadows plotting the destruction of man and dragon.

I then fleshed it out, using my group's feedback. We continue to refine and work from this basic outline for our world."

If any of you readers are interested in helping build this world, we could use ideas on how dragons might rule. We have a reason why they may choose to rule (see next paragraph), now we just need to decide how a dragon kingdom would differ from human kingdoms.

The world of Dragonsuns (working title) has the terrain and climates of Earth, but the sun has been darkened. Only dragons can create dragonsuns, miniature stars that allow plants to grow. So they become kings in many cases because only they have the power to keep everyone alive.

Feel free to use any D&D 3rd or 3.5 dragon. If you don't play D&D you could use Smaug from the Hobbit (red dragon, breathes fire, sits on treasure, vain) as inspiration.

Thanks!
Charlie

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Post originally by NotMousse at 2004-10-16 04:09:41
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Well... If light is such a special commodity you'd need to tweak several things.

First, any spells creating light would either have to be removed (not recommended, though potentially interesting), ruling that any illuminating spells don't give off any 'nutritional' light (just sounds hokey), and increasing their level (so less are able to cast them, and at a higher cost). Otherwise mages could simply cast daylight (millions of times over the world) make it permanent, and only have to worry about the impending cold from a dimming star.

Second, what happened to the planet's climate after the sun began to fade? Most tropical areas would be much more temperate, temperate areas would likely be harder to live in, and the colder climates would be neigh impossible to survive. Enough volcanic activity could explain small pockets of habitable land near the poles and in other cold climates.

Third, what is left of civilization? If this were a dramatic shift in climate many societies would crumble, and new ones spring up in more hospitable lands. If it were a gradual shift then while many areas would remain abandoned the populations would have moved to warmer climates, which would lead to severe overpopulations in areas causing much strife. The appeal of a sudden dramatic shift is many mass death and destruction, leading to potentially thousands of dungeons to explore. Gradual shift would mean mass starvation and infighting among those herded to the habitable lands and extremely easy logic to follow for subjugation to dragons.

That's all for now, I'll babble more another time.

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Post originally by Charlie Dunwoody at 2004-10-18 12:30:48
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In column two I'll list the world background that my fellow world builders and I have come up with. You ask a lot of good questions, and we've answered many of them.

I encourage you to provide some answers yourself, if you like, between now and next month. I'll incorporate usable ideas into the ongoing creation process. Hopefully, other readers will throw some ideas in as well.

Charlie

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Post originally by Paul Mitchener at 2004-10-21 03:39:48
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Hi Charlie, and welcome to the privileged ranks of RPGnet columnists.

In my (vaguely world-hopping) campaign, I recently introduced a world ruled by dragons. My set-up was different to yours of course; the sheer physical power of the dragons enabled domination without the added bonus of your Dragonsuns set-up.

Anyway, if your are interested (and even if you are not), here are a couple of the ideas I used in an attempt to make it work:

*Scrap Alignments

The dragons on this world did not have fixed alignments based on colour. I found this opened up a lot of plot ideas not otherwise available; if you meet a dragon, its agenda is not automatically known. Another reason I found this idea useful is that metallic dragons are a fair bit more powerful than chromatic dragons on average, and metallic dragons are usually deemed to have good alignment.

I did, however, keep certain personality traits based broadly on colours.

*Give the dragons a reason to be important/respected.

Okay- you've already handled this one. My answer was based on the history of the world; the dragons were seen as being neutral diplomats with big breath weapons who could be called upon to settle disputes between the world's pettty human and elven kingdoms.

Another thing I did was have a tradition among the elves that it was quite honourable to go and serve the dragons for a century upon reaching adulthood. An elf could learn quite a lot from a dragon. A dragon could probably use the manual dexterity of a humanoid (for example, a dragon in its natural form could probably not cut a gemstone or make jewellery- both things a canonical dragon values).

*Work out how dragons relate to each-other

In my world, there were two dragon nations, who were rivals but generally cooperated. Both contained under 100 dragons for ecological reasons that are easy enough to work out.

One of the two kingdoms was a complete Athenian-style democracy (easily possibly with such low numbers). The other was stratified into castes based upon colour.

One other thing I did was allow two dragons of different colour to interbreed (although this was illegal in the caste-based society). Virtually any coloured dragon could result from such a pairing; very few dragons were `pure'.



Well, that's it for now. Best of fun with your campaign and your column,
Paul

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Post originally by Charlie Dunwoody at 2004-10-21 04:12:10
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Thanks Paul! I like the alignment idea; I'm DMing Eberron and I like the freedom that simply saying alignment may vary brings.

The idea of an elf serving a dragon for several decades is great. I was stuck on an idea for an elven nation, that idea might help generate ideas among the other world builders.

I'll have to think about the dragons interbreeding. Because it would introduce rule based changes we might suggest it as an option. I'll see what some of the other world builders thinks.

Charlie

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Post originally by Ace Calhoon at 2004-10-25 10:31:43
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*Alignments:
Personally, I've always like this idea... But as an exception, rather than a rule (i.e. *most* gold dragons are good). Here's my take on it:
Fantasy is a genre built around the look factor, and this extends to D&D's dragons. A black dragon looks evil, a silver dragon looks noble, and that's what people are used to. If you take this away it strips a layer or importance from your narrative.

For example, if dragons tend to stick towards alignments, I can let myself drift into the narrative; I only need to allow a small amount of mental resources to the possibility that the dragon is out of type:
"The dragon's skull-like head swings towards you, his dark beady eyes spitting like daggers. Sun glistens off his slimy, black scales and steam rises from the point on the ground where the creature's acid drool hits the ground."
Kinda cheesy, but you get the idea... I'm in a bit of a hurry here :-P

If alignment is scrapped completely, I have to be on high alert every time that I encounter a dragon of any kind. I'll tune out the descriptive text (it doesn't give me information, it doesn't move the plot, and I already know what a dragon looks like). This is what I'll hear:
Dragon, black.
Size category: Something.
Size/age ratio: x
Estimated CR: y
Estimated HD/HP total: z/(avg HD * z + z * con modifier)
Breath weapon type: acid
Other special abilities: this, that, and the other thing.

On top of which, the more magical a creature is (i.e. dragons are more magical than elves, elves are more magical than humans), the more we start thinking of them in a mythological sense... As concepts rather than people. Any time you can tap into a story telling form that's created millenia old stories, that's a good thing.

Finally, dragons are smart, old dragons are really smart. Most evil dragons can get the first attack if the game goes to dialog... Most parties will start to get irritable after the third or so time that they have to take a breath-weapon before they can fight back.

That said, contrast against the norm can create memorable villains. The key words there are "contrast against the norm." If contrast *is* the norm, you don't get this bonus to memorableness (yeah, I made up a word. Sue me.).

*Hybrid dragons:
There's a mention of this in the Draconomicon, and the concept has been proposed to the list. I don't know how they'll take it though; a fair amount of people voted for the chromatic/metallic dragons specifically (in some cases going so far as to restrict other true dragon types).

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Post originally by Paul Mitchener at 2004-10-26 04:08:23
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You're probably right about dragons and alignments. The stereotypes can be useful. I dropped dragon alignments completely on this *particular* world ruled by dragons, partially in order to shock the characters. However, on a world ruled by dragons, getting rid of alignment and *obvious* evil made a lot of sense, independently of other factors.

For the record, I dealt with the power dichotomy between metallics and chromatics in another way as well (not just in my Dragon Empire)- I made chromatics *much* more common than metallic dragons.

Concerning dragons of different colours breeding, I dealt with it in a strange way that totally ignored the science of genetics as we know it. The offspring of (for example) a gold and a black dragon would not be a hybrid dragon, but rather a perfectly normal dragon that could be of virtually any colour, with the odds leaning towards gold or black.

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Post originally by Charlie Dunwoody at 2004-10-27 05:36:11
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I'm putting a little bit of the discussion on alignment in column 2. I like the mythological aspect of dragons that Ace mentions. I also like Paul's idea of a hybrid dragon being any color. This change could explain a different alignment, the offspring of a black and gold might be a black dragon but lawful good.

Charlie

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Post originally by Ace Calhoon at 2004-10-27 16:11:38
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"Concerning dragons of different colours breeding, I dealt with it in a strange way that totally ignored the science of genetics as we know it. The offspring of (for example) a gold and a black dragon would not be a hybrid dragon, but rather a perfectly normal dragon that could be of virtually any colour, with the odds leaning towards gold or black."

That's actually a really neat way of doing it. It's simple, it allows for alignment exceptions, and it isn't *that* far from true genetics (if we assume that the parents were themselves decended from mixed pairings).

So far as power control, shifting quantities seems to be the best way of doing things (and what the designers had in mind). I built this concept into one of my fragments for the world (metalic dragons sacrifice *themselves* to power the dragon suns; chromatics tend to sacrifice humanoids)... This results in the otherwise weaker chromatic dragons having a larger quantity of older dragons. We'll see how far the idea survives :)

As I understand it, you guys should actually see some of these fragments next issue.

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Post originally by Paul Mitchener at 2004-10-28 01:29:43
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Cool- I will look forward to seeing some of what you guys have done in column number 2. I may even steal it for my campaign, which is of course the highest compliment known to man.

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Post originally by Entropist at 2004-11-10 19:22:26
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--Second, what happened to the planet's climate after the sun began to fade? Most tropical areas would be much more temperate, temperate areas would likely be harder to live in, and the colder climates would be neigh impossible to survive. Enough volcanic activity could explain small pockets of habitable land near the poles and in other cold climates.--

Well, that would depend on how "scientific" vs. "magical" you want the world to be. This IS D&D, it doesn't have to follow scientific rules.

But say that you do follow them, what you say is true. For the areas not under the influence of the Dragonsuns. Those change the equation quite a bit. And it brings up lots of questions/possibilities:

* How much area does a Dragonsun cover? Does it vary sun-to-sun? If so, why?

You COULD make each Dragonsun the same strength - "a dragonsun has effects in a x mile radius". In this case, either each "country" controls the same area, or they set up multiple Dragonsuns to control larger areas.

The mythology is probably better though with a single power center for a civilization. Different strengths of Dragonsuns would provide variety for the civilzations. Do the amount of sacrifices made provide for the different strengths? The magical power of the sun's controller? Anything else?

You could have one civilization using a "stronger" Dragonsun and another using a mutiple Dragonsun solution too.

* Does the effect of a Dragonsun diminish with distance? (Probably) Linearly?

Again, being D&D, you could make the effects of the Dragonsun the same for the entire area of effect, which would also make record/mapkeeping a lot easier.

But it would probably be more interesting to have the effects diminish with distance from the Dragonsun. In this respect, I would recommend against keeping it too scientific using the square of the distance and instead make it a linear diminishing or even a reverse curve. Mapping the effects would be important and interesting.

I'm assuming a generally circular area of effect for this, which doesn't necessarily have to be the case. Topography could have a varying amount of effect depending on the height of the Dragonsun. A lower sun would have more topographical effects and would be less circular. There would be cold and warm sides of most vertical structures, hills, mountain ranges, etc. Of course, if this doesn't fit "magic" can shape it however you want...

If you use the option of a "country" using multiple Dragonsuns that overlap, you could end up with a very complex topography of ripple effects...

Lots of cultural/class effects probable with this. The high-class dwellings would be in the nice, temperate zones and the poor would be relegated to the colder peripherials and shadow areas. Would there be too hot areas at the center? Maybe with just some of the "bigger" suns if you use that option? If the suns vary, the diminishing or increasing of a sun's power could lead to significant social effects and maybe even unrest.

* What percentage of the land surface is under the influence of Dragonsuns? Water surface?

It would be really important to determine if the Dragonsuns affect small areas with vast areas of cold wilderness between them, or define larger country-size areas with smaller wilderness areas.

And that's for the land area. What about the oceans or large lakes? Will they all freeze over without the effects of a Dragonsun? I suppose islands would have them, but could you have water travel between them and the mainland?

* Where were the Dragonsuns set up?

There were probably lots of cities before the disaster. Did the dragons use these cities as bases for their Dragonsuns, or are they sitting out there in the cold wilderness?

* How habitable are the non-Dragonsun areas?

CAN people live in these areas? Like Inuit (eskimos) do in our colder regions? I like the ideas of warm pockets or areas near the equator where "resistance" to the Dragonsun rulers would probably coelesce.

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Post originally by Charlie Dunwoody at 2004-11-11 04:17:03
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Great analysis and ideas, Entropist. I'll look over all your points this weekend and start some e-mail discussion with the other worldbuilders. Hopefully, we'll also get some additional discussion going here. Ace, Paul, and/or NotMousse any comments/ideas?

Charlie

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Post originally by Charlie Dunwoody at 2004-11-11 04:21:00
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Just off the top of my head, I really like the idea of cold areas between the areas covered by the dragonsuns. I'm using the Frostfell book in my current Eberron campaign and I really like the way it presents artic and cold climates.

A campaign that can swing from tropical jungle to temperate city to artic wasteland all in one adventure sounds interesting. A nice challenge and change of pace for the players too, I would think.

Charlie

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Post originally by Entropist at 2004-11-11 15:28:00
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Thanks. Thinking about it a bit more, a couple more things occurred to me:

"Who is the leader of the kingdom? Usually a dragon but not always."

Is the leader always the creature that creates/controls the Dragonsun? If not, that creature might not be the "official" leader, but would certainly wield disproportionate influence. I'm sure it would take quite a lawful good dragon to give up that kind of influence.

Can control of a Dragonsun be transferred from one creature to another? I know you said the secret or creating one was possible for other races.

I would strongly recommend that no non-dragon would be publicly known to have created a Dragonsun - at least at the opening of the game. A secret like that would be impossible to contain and it would completely change the face of the game. Plus, the dragons would likely gang up to crush the upstart to protect their power immediately. They would probably try to prevent the spread of the knowledge, but borders would have to completely close off, which wouldn't be good for wandering adventurers. And it would just take one to get through - heck, they could even spout it off to their captors when trying to cross lines. Unless every border guard is 100% trustable (right..) it would get out.

Some non-dragon leader MAY have learned how to create one, but has realized all this and is trying to play off a facade of actually being a dragon him/herself while covertly organizing resistance. Dangerous game to play.

I'm assuming that not all these societies are entirely composed of dragonkind. Some may be, but I would assume that most would have a cadre of dragon rulers (or even a single one) with other races as subjects. I would doubt if a world would naturally support more than a couple thousand dragons.

Anyway, thanks for putting up with me spouting off.

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Post originally by Entropist at 2004-11-11 18:48:54
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Heh. More...

Are the Dragonsuns "on" all the time? Is it perpetual daylight-ish under them? Do they brighten and dim to simulate day/night cycles? Or "rest" each night in the temple to recharge and raise to their apex then float back down over the course of the day? (Note the interesting effects of topography with this) Is this synchronized with the real dimmed sun's cycle or can it be offbeat (interesting brightness/dimness pattern reinforcement of the two light sources)? Different for different Dragonsuns?

Can other spells be integrated into the effects of a Dragonsun? Could give each area its own character based on what spells are woven into the Dragonsun's area effect.

What is the dark jungle like that gives it growth? Does it have a sickly glow? Is it dark, but the ground eminates heat (infrared)? Would this blind nightvision? Would the leaves turn towards the ground instead of the sky?

I would also at least give the location of this jungle on the map of Eberron for a reference point for world-builders, as it is such an important unique point people would need to know.

Would great drifts of snow build up in the cold wilderness areas, or does some mechanism keep this from happening? (Strong winds?) Of course, if the oceans are all frozen over, I can't imagine where rain/snow would come from, but that's probably too scientific. Unless you want that as a special feature where there is little to no rain and a big part of the economy is hauling in snow or ice from the cold regions or oceans into the dragonsun areas for water.

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Post originally by mental at 2004-11-13 14:11:28
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How about this:

The dragonsuns are formed from the stuff of the sun god himself. This is the real reason that he has not reemerged. It is only through reassimilation of a critical mass of dragonsuns that the sun god can reemerge.

A cult knows this secret, but is hunted by the evil queen (or whatever) and of course the dragons - since they do not want the suns reassimilated.

About the dragonsuns themselves, why limit them to physics - make them the "source of life" which explains why they support life - like the Blight (also a sun god product). I recommend that the dsuns emit lifeforce which includes full spectrum light suitable for nourishment. This means that negative lifeforce can exist in the "shadows" - places where the dsuns cannot reach - abherrents.

What this implies is a dual nature for heroes in the realm. They must remove dsuns - making the shadow grow, whilst bringing about the return of the sun god. How to do this without wiping out innocents is their quandry.

When I read the descriptions of the dsuns themselves, I saw multiple globes in clusters emitting different colors. Large cities with large clusters cover larger areas. The shadows cast by the floating cities could be interesting! Also, by placing the dsuns in clusters, they are easier to protect by their owners. By placing them in close proximity to other dsuns a synergistic effect allows them to emit to larger areas of land - you do not need physics in this world, the fact that life persists without a sun is enough. With clusters dotted across the map, there will be bands of shadow where other "things" can grow. But you already knew that.

To get past the total darkness of the defeated sun god, make the world near a cluster of stars that provide a considerable amount of night skylight. There will be tales of war and heroics among the little people during the fimbulwinter when the sun was eaten.

more thoughts if you want 'em later...

mental

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Post originally by Ace Calhoon at 2004-11-16 14:53:40
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"What this implies is a dual nature for heroes in the realm. They must remove dsuns - making the shadow grow, whilst bringing about the return of the sun god. How to do this without wiping out innocents is their quandry."

Personally, I really don't like this one idea. It forces any character who wishes to restore the sun into the role of a villain. So far, it looks like the Dragonsuns are going to be the only viable means of making an area livable for a large number of people. No matter how you stack it, extinguishing a Dragonsun will result in hardship for a great many people: extinguishing a lot of them will likely result in a pretty significant death-toll. I've been struggling with this problem myself, because I wanted a Dragonsunless human city.

"Also, by placing the dsuns in clusters, they are easier to protect by their owners."

This is true of all Dragonsuns owned by a single society (i.e. dragon color), whether you're looking at clusters or a single, larger sun. However, certain factors will cause Dragonsuns to be spread out amongst all the cities:
1) Location. If the dragons didn't build the floating cities, they have to make-do with what locations they could find.
2) Coverage. Many dim light-sources are more effective than a single bright one when dealing with the angles involved here. Spreading the Dragonsuns out will minimize the effects of the world's curved surface, decrease areas of darkness, and generally allow for a larger habitable world.
3) Trust. Good dragons don't trust, or even like, evil dragons. Lawful dragons are likely to be a bit uncomfortable around chaotic dragons, etc. Geographic dispersal makes it easier to tolerate people who don't exactly share your ideals.

"To get past the total darkness of the defeated sun god, make the world near a cluster of stars that provide a considerable amount of night skylight."

This won't apply to the majority of the game-world (which receives light from the Dragonsuns), but might make for an interesting detail for campaigns that venture further away from the cities. The trick is phrasing it in such a way that it doesn't start to sound to "science fictiony."

"more thoughts if you want 'em later..."

We'd love 'em. Keep it coming...

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Post originally by Ace Calhoon at 2004-11-17 10:00:59
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"'What this implies is a dual nature for heroes in the realm. They must remove dsuns - making the shadow grow, whilst bringing about the return of the sun god. How to do this without wiping out innocents is their quandry.'

Personally, I really don't like this one idea. It forces any character who wishes to restore the sun into the role of a villain."

Actually, I take that back. I've been thinking it over a bit, and I do like the idea of this method of bringing the sun back... But as an alternative to the other ones mentioned, rather than the only possibility.

If we do it that way it can create some interesting situations, and questions. It can become a test of the heroes' character: can they see through to the consequences of their actions; would they stop someone whose goal ran parallel to their own, but whose methods were appalling?

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Post originally by Zeitgeist at 2004-12-18 09:48:40
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Simon Lipscomb has done great work translating Dragonlance to RQ. For dragons, he's dropped alignments and instead assigned a trait, which acts as the dragons demeanor.

Green - Terror
Red - Arrogance
Bronze - Thought
Gold - Wisdom

etc.

Its an interesting approach.

http://www.physiol.ox.ac.uk/~sl2/dl/misc/dragons.html

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Post originally by Charlie Dunwoody at 2004-12-20 04:38:47
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Thanks Zeitgeist. We might want to include an idea like this as an optional rule or perhaps an additional roleplaying tool without removing alignment all together.

Charlie

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Post originally by Ace Calhoon at 2005-01-05 12:03:27
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"What is the dark jungle like that gives it growth? Does it have a sickly glow?"

Likely a healthy glow near the center, where it is uncorrupted with a sickly glow (and/or deep shadows) in the corrupted areas.

"Is it dark, but the ground eminates heat (infrared)?"

Could be. Although, given that the power emanates from a sun deity one would think that there'd be light involved (even if that ends up being questionable scientifically).

"Would this blind nightvision?"

Fortunately, we don't have to worry about that as of 3.0. Elvish low-light vision is definitely no longer "infravision," and darkvision doesn't seem to be treated as such either.

"Would the leaves turn towards the ground instead of the sky?"

Interesting idea. The main question becomes, how much do we want to make the environment scientifically sound, and how much do we want to use magic?

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Post originally by Charlie Dunwoody at 2005-01-11 09:10:49
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My current thought is to keep the environment of the Blight like a jungle on Earth. Even the light would appear normal, although it doesn't come from the sun but is just part of the Blight.

However, some areas would be home to menacing plant creatures, unnatural darkness, and other creepy magical effects as a DM can come up with. Throw in some aberrations, drow, and black dragons and the Blight would truly become a menacing place.

Charlie