RPGnet Columns
05-01-2005, 05:52 PM
Post originally by Spike at 2005-05-01 16:52:31
Converted from Phorums BB System
I know that this goes against the idea of D&D all the way back to the beginning, but I can't stand my character being bound by a Level, to express what he can and cannot do. It is completely artificial (insamuch as we are talking fantasy... I know) and exceptionally hard to translate into 'real world' myth figures, or even movie characters. Classes are almost as bad, more due to the restrictions that they (again) artificially enforce. I love 3.5E as far as it goes, I refused to touch D&D for ten years, before players options came out and then some, and only relaxed my stance because 3e was at least playable. IMO it is still horribly broken in many ways. (Levels, classes, kill for xp, abstract HP, and easily fixed but for some reason left in, Str to hit people. C'mon, this last one goes against every tradition of the big strong guy that has to get pounded on for a while, until he can end the fight with one mighty blow (one he couldn't land before because he was so slow... in case you missed it))
Let me illustrate my point about classes with my favorite (and a staple in EVERY group) the fighter. The fighter has THE worst skill points of any class. Period. Even the uneducated Barbarian gets more (given an Int of 10 for each, twice as many), of course, this is partly because the fighter has the smallest selection of skills. In 3e he had NO social skills whatsoever. Not even Intimidate. So, in essesence the one thing that gets players of fighters looked down upon (they don't really play unless there is a fight...) is reinforced by the fact that the player really can't do ANYTHING outside of fighting. ???. In fact, the fighter is missing some very basic skills that by all means BELONG in the class. For example, every D20 fighter is essentially oblivious to their surroundings. They can't spot, listen or search. Now you know something is wrong, because it's fighters that man the watches, go on patrols, track down the heros for the villian. (Look sir, Droids!) True, fiction tends to have these unfortunates die horribly at the hands of sneaky characters, suggesting that mayby they aren't really good at it. But then, those are NPC's that probably lack a PC class level at all. And no, it is neither game balance (in which case wizards would have NO skill points. C'mon, do they really need skills, they can use Wish Spells. Think about it.) nor fictionally accurate. To illustrate, Arnold,in Red Sonja, is pretty much a fighter, yeah, Okay, he could have some rouge levels, but then his BAB would drop until he couldn't match Sonja in a fight... Multiclassing a fictional charcter for skill points doesn't make a strong counterargument. Anyway, back to what he does in the movie, namely (and many, many fictional fighters do this) he hears badguys trying to ambush him. Anyone who puts their life on the line tends to develope a keen alertness for their surroundings.
Okay, you say, we'll give fighters some more skills and some more skill points. That will fix it.
Wrong. It shouldn't need fixing, because my concept of the character as a great fighter shouldn't need to bow to your preconceived notions of what a fighter is (especially when considering the raw freedom a fighter has to develop his own way, a la feat selection. Arguably the only other class with this freedom is the rouge.
Solution? Within a level based system, have a given 'level' be a class package, complete with Bab, saves, Hp(ugh), and skill points, skills could be far more open. Who is to say my fighter didn't have an apprenticeship with an alchemist. (in fact I once had a fighter interested in anatomy, that carried a disection kit with him...)
I guess what I'm describing is not unlike M&M, except that it is designed to be used on a level by level basis. Each player gets X number of points each level to spend on things we all consider class and level specific abilities. Of each catagory has a minimum default (say, D4 hit die, 0 points) and if you don't buy that level you are stuck, no making it up later. Now this pool of points also buy your feats (all class abilities translate roughly, or not so roughly into feats) and also any spell casting abilities. Without changing the magic rules, for the moment, What I mean to say is you buy +1 level of spell casting, by list. Meaning you could have someone (in theory) who is progressing on two spell lists simultaniously, though at the expense of EVERYTHING else. (minimal skill points, hit points, saves, feats, everything...) or you could have a paladin who is casting spells at first level, but can't turn the undead. Something. Personally, I have few real problems with the task(combat) resolution. Those I do have are more of tweaks rather than overhauls.
Now, how to do this without levels. Simple really. What we did before was take multiclassing to a whole new level, opening it wide, wide, wide. What I intend for levels is much simpler, and much harder at the same time. Essentially, you buy levels with xp, in the current system. Now, instead of earning a pool of points every so often, you buy points directly with XP. With me?
So, Joe, our formerly first level fighter, who is now a no level guy who is pretty tough and good with a sword, has 1000 xp, which he spend (and this is, by the way, extremely notional value wise) 400 points to increase his BAB, 300 to buy a D10 worth of HP(plus Con) and the remaining 300 he uses to buy some skill points and a feat. To keep this in line with the somewhat natural slowdown of progress, and to reflect the rule of diminishing returns, the required cost doubles at each level. Thus it is far easier for a really good fighter to add just a touch of magic to his repitoir than it is for him to increase his ability as a fighter. This is natural, I am very good at my job, enough so that it is hard for me to improve any, but throw me into a new job, and I master the basics within a few days, to a few weeks, depending on the complexity of the tasks involved.
Real life, people.
Other more minor changes are basically steals from other D20 projects, like armor as Damage reduction, Defensive bonusus, Wound points (two tiered HP, basically), how weapons are handled. Action dice. Like I said, tweaks and steals more than rewrites.
Man, I feel guilty. I've done about 90% of the work in designed 3.5E (if they hadn't stolen the name), all that's left is to write it up in a book and publish it. And it was almost off the top of my head. Of course, I know no D&D fans would ever, and I mean ever, give up Levels or Classes, or else they'd be playing one of those Other Games.
I welcome responses of more than one line, good or bad.
Converted from Phorums BB System
I know that this goes against the idea of D&D all the way back to the beginning, but I can't stand my character being bound by a Level, to express what he can and cannot do. It is completely artificial (insamuch as we are talking fantasy... I know) and exceptionally hard to translate into 'real world' myth figures, or even movie characters. Classes are almost as bad, more due to the restrictions that they (again) artificially enforce. I love 3.5E as far as it goes, I refused to touch D&D for ten years, before players options came out and then some, and only relaxed my stance because 3e was at least playable. IMO it is still horribly broken in many ways. (Levels, classes, kill for xp, abstract HP, and easily fixed but for some reason left in, Str to hit people. C'mon, this last one goes against every tradition of the big strong guy that has to get pounded on for a while, until he can end the fight with one mighty blow (one he couldn't land before because he was so slow... in case you missed it))
Let me illustrate my point about classes with my favorite (and a staple in EVERY group) the fighter. The fighter has THE worst skill points of any class. Period. Even the uneducated Barbarian gets more (given an Int of 10 for each, twice as many), of course, this is partly because the fighter has the smallest selection of skills. In 3e he had NO social skills whatsoever. Not even Intimidate. So, in essesence the one thing that gets players of fighters looked down upon (they don't really play unless there is a fight...) is reinforced by the fact that the player really can't do ANYTHING outside of fighting. ???. In fact, the fighter is missing some very basic skills that by all means BELONG in the class. For example, every D20 fighter is essentially oblivious to their surroundings. They can't spot, listen or search. Now you know something is wrong, because it's fighters that man the watches, go on patrols, track down the heros for the villian. (Look sir, Droids!) True, fiction tends to have these unfortunates die horribly at the hands of sneaky characters, suggesting that mayby they aren't really good at it. But then, those are NPC's that probably lack a PC class level at all. And no, it is neither game balance (in which case wizards would have NO skill points. C'mon, do they really need skills, they can use Wish Spells. Think about it.) nor fictionally accurate. To illustrate, Arnold,in Red Sonja, is pretty much a fighter, yeah, Okay, he could have some rouge levels, but then his BAB would drop until he couldn't match Sonja in a fight... Multiclassing a fictional charcter for skill points doesn't make a strong counterargument. Anyway, back to what he does in the movie, namely (and many, many fictional fighters do this) he hears badguys trying to ambush him. Anyone who puts their life on the line tends to develope a keen alertness for their surroundings.
Okay, you say, we'll give fighters some more skills and some more skill points. That will fix it.
Wrong. It shouldn't need fixing, because my concept of the character as a great fighter shouldn't need to bow to your preconceived notions of what a fighter is (especially when considering the raw freedom a fighter has to develop his own way, a la feat selection. Arguably the only other class with this freedom is the rouge.
Solution? Within a level based system, have a given 'level' be a class package, complete with Bab, saves, Hp(ugh), and skill points, skills could be far more open. Who is to say my fighter didn't have an apprenticeship with an alchemist. (in fact I once had a fighter interested in anatomy, that carried a disection kit with him...)
I guess what I'm describing is not unlike M&M, except that it is designed to be used on a level by level basis. Each player gets X number of points each level to spend on things we all consider class and level specific abilities. Of each catagory has a minimum default (say, D4 hit die, 0 points) and if you don't buy that level you are stuck, no making it up later. Now this pool of points also buy your feats (all class abilities translate roughly, or not so roughly into feats) and also any spell casting abilities. Without changing the magic rules, for the moment, What I mean to say is you buy +1 level of spell casting, by list. Meaning you could have someone (in theory) who is progressing on two spell lists simultaniously, though at the expense of EVERYTHING else. (minimal skill points, hit points, saves, feats, everything...) or you could have a paladin who is casting spells at first level, but can't turn the undead. Something. Personally, I have few real problems with the task(combat) resolution. Those I do have are more of tweaks rather than overhauls.
Now, how to do this without levels. Simple really. What we did before was take multiclassing to a whole new level, opening it wide, wide, wide. What I intend for levels is much simpler, and much harder at the same time. Essentially, you buy levels with xp, in the current system. Now, instead of earning a pool of points every so often, you buy points directly with XP. With me?
So, Joe, our formerly first level fighter, who is now a no level guy who is pretty tough and good with a sword, has 1000 xp, which he spend (and this is, by the way, extremely notional value wise) 400 points to increase his BAB, 300 to buy a D10 worth of HP(plus Con) and the remaining 300 he uses to buy some skill points and a feat. To keep this in line with the somewhat natural slowdown of progress, and to reflect the rule of diminishing returns, the required cost doubles at each level. Thus it is far easier for a really good fighter to add just a touch of magic to his repitoir than it is for him to increase his ability as a fighter. This is natural, I am very good at my job, enough so that it is hard for me to improve any, but throw me into a new job, and I master the basics within a few days, to a few weeks, depending on the complexity of the tasks involved.
Real life, people.
Other more minor changes are basically steals from other D20 projects, like armor as Damage reduction, Defensive bonusus, Wound points (two tiered HP, basically), how weapons are handled. Action dice. Like I said, tweaks and steals more than rewrites.
Man, I feel guilty. I've done about 90% of the work in designed 3.5E (if they hadn't stolen the name), all that's left is to write it up in a book and publish it. And it was almost off the top of my head. Of course, I know no D&D fans would ever, and I mean ever, give up Levels or Classes, or else they'd be playing one of those Other Games.
I welcome responses of more than one line, good or bad.