#22: Keeping the Faith

[RPGnet Columns]

http://www.rpg.net/columns/kosher/kosher22.phtml

Summary:

Clerics and religion in fantasy roleplaying games.

Go to the column (http://www.rpg.net/columns/kosher/kosher22.phtml) for more information.

[nanoboy]

You raise some good complaints about religion in role-playing. Given the profound importance of religion in life (even without priests casting several spells a day) one would think that it could be better fleshed out. There are probably a couple of reasons that come to mind: I suspect that role-players are a relatively secular bunch, and there is a little fear of offending someone.

I did want to raise a little issue with your article. Pantheistic role-playing religions are usually based on a deviation from ancient pantheistic religions, and these entities did not often clash with each other. If an ancient traveler entered a foreign land, he might pay his respects to the local deities, as the common belief was that gods were somewhat local. (I know that there are contradictions in logic here with regard to Creation and the like, but belief in gods is not strictly logical anyway.)

Finally, have you looked at the GURPS: Banestorm setting? It uses religion in a very different way than other settings. It ends up feeling more visceral, more mysterious, and more real.

[Walter S Ciechanowski]

Thanks for the input, Nanoboy! (I feel like I should be wearing spandex when I say that, lol).

It is entirely possible that some religious world views would allow worshipers of different faiths to get along (this is actually the way most "traditional fantasy" campaigns are run). The question is, how would the gods of the campaign feel about that? That's something the GM should consider.

I haven't read Banestorm, but if it's related to the old GURPS Fantasy then I'm assuming it uses transported Earth religions?

Walt

[nanoboy]

You are correct about Banestorm. It's the 4E updated version of Fantasy. (The new Fantasy is a genre toolkit book.) It's got some more info in it, but so far as religion is concerned, if you've read Fantasy, you know what I'm talking about.

Yeah, if the gods are real (just because there's religion, it doesn't mean that the gods actually exist!) then their actual opinions of other gods will matter. Maybe they don't mind having a limited realm spacially, or maybe they're in constant conflict. Divine politics and the like can be fun in high-powered campaigns. Gods changing pantheons and the like could get interesting, of course.

[smascrns]

I find it strange that you write about this topic without even a passing reference to fantasy games where religion plays a big part and where it is treated in a sensible way. One can only ask if you ever crossed games such as RuneQuest or HeroQuest, Spiritual World, Tribe 8, just to mention a few where religion plays a major role but that have very different takes on the issue. After all, there's more to fantasy roleplaying than D&D. (And no, saying that D&D is the dominant game does not cut the cheese since the purpose of a column is exactly to thread less traveled paths.)

[M. J. Young]

Thanks for the article; it certainly raises some good points and makes some excellent suggestions. D&D, of course, has quite a few problems in this regard. We could speculate as to the degree to which the conflict between the religious views of Dave Arneson (an Evangelical Christian) and Gary Gygax (reported to be a Jehovah's Witness) caused them to limit what they did in this area, but I'm inclined to think they were more interested in providing a bare framework on which dungeon masters could build, and then never really got around to suggesting how to do much building (although there were some interesting aspects, some of which are in your article, in the original Deities & Demigods, such as clerics of particular faiths being required to dual-class as wizards). Given American pluralism and our reluctance to discuss whether any particular conception of God or the supernatural might be true, I'm sure that in writing a game for the general market they thought it best to leave questions of religion vague. Someone in this thread has said something about not wanting to offend the largely secular RPG crowd, but I think that underestimates the huge religious segment of the hobby (including Christians, pagans, and many others), some of whom wrestle seriously with how their fantasy games fit into their faith. (I've written quite a bit on this in the Faith and Gaming series in the Chaplain's Corner of The Christian Gamers Guild site (http://www.geocities.com/christian_gamers_guild/chaplain/), for anyone interested in pursuing it further.)

Thanks again.

--M. J. Young

[Walter S Ciechanowski]

I find it strange that you write about this topic without even a passing reference to fantasy games where religion plays a big part and where it is treated in a sensible way. One can only ask if you ever crossed games such as RuneQuest or HeroQuest, Spiritual World, Tribe 8, just to mention a few where religion plays a major role but that have very different takes on the issue. After all, there's more to fantasy roleplaying than D&D. (And no, saying that D&D is the dominant game does not cut the cheese since the purpose of a column is exactly to thread less traveled paths.)

Thanks for reading, Sergio!

Your last sentence had me in stitches ("cut the cheese" means something very different in my little corner of the world).

I'm not sure what the purpose of "a column" is, but the purpose of this column is to help GMs running "typical fantasy games" to better incorporate religion. Judging by sales, D&D is what most people are playing. Why wouldn't I write a column that would appeal to the greatest number of readers?

I'm well aware of other games that place a greater emphasis on religion (7th Sea, Victoriana, and Witchcraft, to name a few), but this wouldn't be much of a column if my advice boiled down to "go spend $80 and it will improve your game."

I've also seen examples where a gaming group has moved away from D&D only to fall back into the same old habits. GURPS, for example, has an excellent sourcebook on religion. Still, when a D&D group I was a part of moved to GURPS, the same old "typical fantasy" mentality remained. Those are the groups I was trying to reach.

YMMV, of course.

Walt

[Walter S Ciechanowski]

Thanks, M.J.!

I think religion, regardless of form, adds an interesting dimension to a fantasy campaign. Otherwise, clerics are just fighter-wizards with a unique spell list.

Walt

[smascrns]

Your last sentence had me in stitches ("cut the cheese" means something very different in my little corner of the world).
(I wonder what it may mean in that corner of the world. Wait! What's that corner of the world? In any case, it's very likely that I have the meaning of the sentence completely wrong...)

I'm not sure what the purpose of "a column" is, but the purpose of this column is to help GMs running "typical fantasy games" to better incorporate religion. Judging by sales, D&D is what most people are playing. Why wouldn't I write a column that would appeal to the greatest number of readers?
I have no problem with this. My point was not about the readership you are trying to reach, it was about what you delivered to that readership.

Yet, even your assumption about the readership is wrong because you are writing to RPGnet. RPGneters are not the average roleplayer fed on on a D&D diet. If you want to appeal to the latter you've better find another place to write for.

I'm well aware of other games that place a greater emphasis on religion (7th Sea, Victoriana, and Witchcraft, to name a few), but this wouldn't be much of a column if my advice boiled down to "go spend $80 and it will improve your game."
That's how you see references to games? How sad. My perspective is that they are an eye opener for sensible people to walk out of the well throden path. You prefer to have people stiking to the same thing instead of providing clues to other things that are there under the sun. (Of course, if people have the $80 to spend they will spend it anyway. Maybe you think that's better if they spend it in the new edition 3.5.999 of the book they already have at home...)

References also show that you know what you're writing about. They show that you are not just trying to re-invent the wheel. They show that you did your homework when writing the column. They show respect for the excellent if not well known work of the people that wrote those other gamebooks. They show you are umble enough to acknowledge your influences.

Sorry but no, references are hot just advice boiled down to "go spend $80 and it will improve your game." Sad, indeed.

I've also seen examples where a gaming group has moved away from D&D only to fall back into the same old habits. GURPS, for example, has an excellent sourcebook on religion. Still, when a D&D group I was a part of moved to GURPS, the same old "typical fantasy" mentality remained. Those are the groups I was trying to reach.
And the whole way you aproached it leads me to think that your attempt is pointless because it will change nothing. Either those groups are not smart enough to understand the alternative, or they are smart enough to know what they want and to be sure that what they want is not what you have to offer them. After all, they have been through an alternative and it didn't work, why would you do any better?

[Devin Parker]

Thanks for the column, Walt!

I agree with your initial take on religion in gaming; it unfortunately often ends up as "The Other White Magic" in many games, getting a vaguely Graeco-Roman pantheon of deities and little else. As much as this is stereotypically a D&Dism, I think this thinking affects the vast majority of fantasy RPGs. Even in my old favorite, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, while the setting itself is wonderfully evocative of High Medieval Europe, its pantheon of deities feel artificial and grafted-on to me (though I do love the idea of Chaos as the "villain" of the cosmology).

Tackling actual religions rather than simply the deity themself, as you suggest, can make for a great many adventure and campaign hooks in a fantasy campaign. You can have schisms within a religious body, denominations that squabble over points of doctrine, intrigues between religious organizations with ties to the state versus 'rival' organizations, problems dealing with offshoot cults and heretical rogue priests spreading misinformation, corruption within the religious hierarchy (and subsequent reformations spearheaded by true believers or martyrs-to-be), proselytization efforts (which could be forceful, thinly-veiled political maneuvers, or benevolent efforts to bring others into the fold)... And that's just following the medieval European mold.

Additionally, I would echo the recommendation that anyone interested in seeing some well-integrated, well-thought-out religions in games would do well to check out Tribe 8, a rather unusual fantasy world with a very interesting religious system that's absolutely integral to the setting. Earthdawn handles the stereotypical D&D-style pantheon in a way I find much more interwoven into the setting with its Passions and Questors. There are certainly a number of other games which handle religions with creativity and complexity, but it's late and my brain is tired. Perhaps others will be so kind as to suggest them below?

Two nitpicks, though: Anglicanism, Greek Orthodoxy, Lutheranism, and Roman Catholicism aren't different religions, but denominations of Christianity.

Also, you said, "A Lutheran and a Muslim believe in the same God, but their personal beliefs and practices are very different. They would not feel comfortable attending a worship service that belonged to the other." I think this statement could probably use a little unpacking, as again, this could be useful to using religion in RPGs: while Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all claim to worship the God of Abraham, Christianity claims that Jesus is that God, while Islam claims he was only a prophet, and I believe Judaism would argue against even that. From that one disagreement flow a great number of irreconcilable differences in theology which affect the personal behaviors and philosophies of their respective followers.

Similarly, in an RPG, varying religions could claim to worship the same deity but have wildly varying definitions and claims regarding said deity... A Paladin who enters the Orthodox Temple of Sole Fantasia the Never-Manifested, whose members worship in silence, and begins praying aloud to Disney, One True Avatar of Fantasia, is looking for a heated debate at the very least...

[Walter S Ciechanowski]

Yet, even your assumption about the readership is wrong because you are writing to RPGnet. RPGneters are not the average roleplayer fed on on a D&D diet. If you want to appeal to the latter you've better find another place to write for.

This depends on whether you're taking issue with a tree or the whole forest. This is Column #22 and the first directly aimed at "traditional fantasy" campaigns, of which certain standards have evolved (heck, how many "original new fantasy worlds" still have elves, dwarves, and orcs in them?).

I'm not aware of any polls on what the average RPGneter plays, but we all probably play more than one game, and, judging by sales figures, at least one of them is probably D&D or some variant thereof (otherwise, RPGNet is wasting space with all of those d20 products popping up in the "New Downloads section").

That's how you see references to games? How sad. My perspective is that they are an eye opener for sensible people to walk out of the well throden path. You prefer to have people stiking to the same thing instead of providing clues to other things that are there under the sun. (Of course, if people have the $80 to spend they will spend it anyway. Maybe you think that's better if they spend it in the new edition 3.5.999 of the book they already have at home...)

Sorry but no, references are hot just advice boiled down to "go spend $80 and it will improve your game." Sad, indeed.

I may have been a tad defensive in my last response. References may have been useful (sorry to say I've never looked at Tribe 8, but judging from your suggestion-which was seconded--I should probably give it a look), but I was really just drawing inspiration from the real world in general and trying to adapt it to a typical fantasy campaign.

And the whole way you aproached it leads me to think that your attempt is pointless because it will change nothing. Either those groups are not smart enough to understand the alternative, or they are smart enough to know what they want and to be sure that what they want is not what you have to offer them. After all, they have been through an alternative and it didn't work, why would you do any better?

Have they? Maybe they've just gotten used to playing a certain way, and a fresh outside perspective might inspire them. Heck, I'm 34, and I still learn new things every day that challenge the way I've been thinking or doing things for years.

Walt

[Walter S Ciechanowski]

Thanks for reading, Devin!

Two nitpicks, though: Anglicanism, Greek Orthodoxy, Lutheranism, and Roman Catholicism aren't different religions, but denominations of Christianity.

Your point is well taken. I thought about lumping Christianity together, but decided to interpret "religion" liberally.

Similarly, in an RPG, varying religions could claim to worship the same deity but have wildly varying definitions and claims regarding said deity... A Paladin who enters the Orthodox Temple of Sole Fantasia the Never-Manifested, whose members worship in silence, and begins praying aloud to Disney, One True Avatar of Fantasia, is looking for a heated debate at the very least...

Good point. I'd further add that it's entirely appropriate and legitimate for a campaign world to have uniform religions with little deviation, assuming the deity/deities involved care for details, as priests who deviate would suddenly find themselves spell-less.

Walt

[smascrns]

I'm not aware of any polls on what the average RPGneter plays, but we all probably play more than one game, and, judging by sales figures, at least one of them is probably D&D or some variant thereof (otherwise, RPGNet is wasting space with all of those d20 products popping up in the "New Downloads section").
You're most likely right but even then rpgneters are informed about a lot more than D&D only, so I am sure they will like references to games other than the big daddy. And there is also people like me that don't even have an interest in D&D.

I was really just drawing inspiration from the real world in general and trying to adapt it to a typical fantasy campaign.
Still the best inspiration of them all. Most fantasy tropes were inspired by good old Earth after all. I have no problem with that and you handled the issue of religion in a sensible if narrow way... in real world terms. Which brings us to other games. Because these also tackled the issue of religion by reference to the real world, it would be nice to see your perspective on how you handled it differently.

[gschneider]

go spend $80 and it will improve your game

I think Walt has hit on a new column - "Better Role-playing Through the Application of Money" I am sure there are many people out there wondering how they can best spend their money to become better role-players, who would love to hear further sage advice on what systems to buy so as to be considered part of the gaming elite instead of D&D playing scum. . .

But seriously. . .

I believe that every gamer goes through some stage where they decide, for good or ill, that they are going to build their own world (and often, their own system.) More often then not, this phase comes before the "let's start buying a bunch of source books" phase. Because gamers are independant, creative thinkers who usually feel that they can build something just as good on their own, and more importantly, like to build something on their own.

And when they do that, any advice is good. Whether that is column advice (which is very cheap and easy to get) or examples of how other people did it (I like to use Harn Religion as my example of a good integrated religion.)

Of course, most gamers finally come to the conclusion that building their own world is a lot of work and then decide maybe they should just pay for a setting They find out which is more important to them: being cheap or being lazy.

And becoming an "educated" gamer, knowledgeable of the new systems and trends? Neither easy nor cheap, so I'm not going to get on the case of any gamer that just wants to use what they have and not bound down the road of "exciting system of the month" each time some intellectual gamer comes up with something new. It may be better, it may be more fun, but that doesn't mean that someone can't succeed at all aspects of role-playing with just a D&D book. (Altough, to be fair, it is probably harder. . .and gamers are lazy. . .)

Darn. . .I found a rant somewhere and it came out. . .what's a gamer to do. . .

Greg

[Walter S Ciechanowski]

Thanks, Greg!

Harn is another one of those systems that never made it from my shelf to the gaming table. Of all the "medieval fantasy" systems that I have, I think Harn is the most realistic out of the box.

Walt