Impressed with Mazes & Minotaurs

[privateer]

I realize it was done as a quasi-joke, but dang if Mazes & Minotaurs doesn't capture the essence of late 70s/early 80s RPGing, IMHO. And it's FREE!

I'm sure there have probably been a million threads on this, but I'm making it a million and one.

Thanks for the cool game, Herr Legrand!

[jrients]

Mazes & Minotaurs is frankly amazing. It captures the wahoo spirit of early rpgs but in its own distinct style and with an incredibly tight design that takes advantage of mechanical developments since those early days. One of the very few A+, five star designs I've seen in recent years. Of all the dozens of games I own, this is one a small handful I consider a Must Play.

[David J Prokopetz]

You mean somebody actually wrote the made-up RPG from that old EDIT: Tom Hanks flick?

[joshua neff]

You mean somebody actually wrote the made-up RPG from that old Tom Cruise flick?

Are you thinking of Tom Hanks and Mazes and Monsters? Man, I hope no one has written up rules for that "RPGs lead to madness and male prostitution" crapfest!

I just read Mazes & Minotaurs for the first time yesterday and, yeah, it really does capture the light, gee-whiz feel of early RPGs while putting a fresh spin on it all. Has anyone actually played it? I'd love to read some actual play write-ups of it.

EDIT: Also, M&M reminds me much of original RuneQuest, in a good way.

[David J Prokopetz]

Are you thinking of Tom Hanks and Mazes and Monsters?Quite so. Cruise was in Legend, not Mazes and Monsters - my mistake. ^^;

Man, I hope no one has written up rules for that "RPGs lead to madness and male prostitution" crapfest!You say that as if madness and male prostitution are bad things.

Okay, yes, I misremembered the title - the movie was "Monsters", not "Minotaurs". Still, I doubt the similarity is wholly unintentional. :p

Not to derail the thread, tho': can someone give us a rundown of what the game is all about?

[joshua neff]

You say that as if madness and male prostitution are bad things.

Not at all. But the evidence that playing RPGs leads to either or both is...sketchy at best.

Alright, who wants to write up a "let's pretend it was written in 1976 as if it were the first RPG" game of "Madness and Male Prostitution"?

[joshua neff]

Not to derail the thread, tho': can someone give us a rundown of what the game is all about?

Mazes & Minotaurs is written as if it were the first RPG, but based on Greek mythology and the old Ray Harryhausen movies like Jason & the Argonauts. There are character classes (Barbarians, Spearmen, Nobles, Sorcerers, Priests, and Nymphs), rules for combat, rules for magic spells, rules for character advancement through accumulating Glory or Wisdom Points, monsters, tips for "Maze Masters," and more.

It's really quite keen.

[jrients]

Not to derail the thread, tho': can someone give us a rundown of what the game is all about?

From an old blog entry of mine (http://jrients.blogspot.com/2006/02/more-apocryphal-gaming.html):

"Another great example of an apocryphal RPG is Olivier Legrand's Mazes & Minotaurs (http://storygame.free.fr/MAZES.htm). Back in 2002 cool game dude Paul Elliott (a.k.a. Mithras, a.k.a. the author of GURPS Atomic Horror and lotsa other cool stuff (http://www.geocities.com/mithrapolis/games.html)) wrote an RPGnet column entitled The Gygax - Arneson Tapes (http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/tempus12nov02.html), in which he outlines a thought experiment with the following premise: what if the grandfathers of roleplaying had been more into Jason & The Argonauts? Monsieur Legrand takes this idea and rolls with it, producing a complete vintage game that was the progenitor rpg in some alternate universe. And it looks pretty dang cool, too."

[joshua neff]

Oh, and there are sidebars, written from today's point of view, discussing the "old school" rules, supplements published later that detailed more character classes, articles and arguments published in "Griffin Magazine"--all to give the illusion of having been written back in the '70s.

It belongs right alongside Encounter Critical.

[zomben]

Not at all. But the evidence that playing RPGs leads to either or both is...sketchy at best.

Alright, who wants to write up a "let's pretend it was written in 1976 as if it were the first RPG" game of "Madness and Male Prostitution"?

Reminds me of a supplement for D20 Modern a pal of mine wanted to write:

"Dungeons and Drag-queens: Roleplaying in San Francisco in the 1970's"

[Oblivious ignorant elf]

I really want to play this game. Maybe even run it. I wasn't present in America during the 70's (unless *gulp* in previous incarnation), but the mood of earliest gaming begginings strikes right into my heart.
I just hope for no cheesy Heracles DM-pc and no cursed Dejanira's cloth in our first treasure.

[nemo]

I'm having a blast running it so far. Homeric combat can be brutal!

[Unseelie]

Not at all. But the evidence that playing RPGs leads to either or both is...sketchy at best.

Alright, who wants to write up a "let's pretend it was written in 1976 as if it were the first RPG" game of "Madness and Male Prostitution"?

If we're doing the Iron Game Designer thing, I suggest D02 as the mystery ingredient.

[Indrodar]

I've never seen this before - and I soooo want to run it!

Mike
8-)
xxx

[Oblivious ignorant elf]

Anyone for a play by post game on this forums?
I could be persuaded to DM or play.

[nemo]

We might be recruiting again in the next few days (see my .sig), and I'd always love to join as a player.

[gatharion]

You know I downloaded M&M, but I just can't bring myself to read anything of length on the computer, much less play from it. However, this thread is inspiring me to look into printing out a copy, probably a cheap spiral bound job.

[Oblivious ignorant elf]

You know I downloaded M&M, but I just can't bring myself to read anything of length on the computer, much less play from it. However, this thread is inspiring me to look into printing out a copy, probably a cheap spiral bound job.
Boggan storyteller refuses to gain banality by reading electronic text? Ah, to think i'm now used to .pdf's as my default medium...
I'm going to look into joining when i'll be able.

[hive_mind]

PDF's became much more pleasant to read when I got my 21" flat panel monitor. Now I can breeze through them no problem.

[Chris Henry]

This book and it's supplements are a real treat. While perhaps not genuinely old school, it is quite amusing. It's like Hackmaster attitude meeting C&C playability. For free! :)

[Richard R.]

MAZES & MINOTAURS does an incredible job of combining the best of "Old School" and modern into a fun, tight fantasy RPG. This game is a remarkable accomplishment.:)

[rstites]

I agree. I downloaded it the other night after reading this thread and have read it through. That in itself is pretty impressive as I find very few RPGs that I have the patience to read through anymore. I really want to put together an old school dungeon (maze :) ) and run some PCs through it. It looks very well put together and the whole heroic Greek take is what I always wanted D&D to be, but it wasn't.

[Oblivious ignorant elf]

For me it's 'retro' not only because of D&D which i didn't know in it's oldest incarnation, but because of Greek mythology that was my initiation to the world of fantasy, adventure and reading itself when i was six. Heracles was my munchkin idol hero before i even knew what he-man is:)

[Harry]

I Like this! I remember picking up the old Rolemaster Mythic Greek supplement, getting excited about playing some of the first fantasy I ever read (Greek mythology), and then putting it back down knowling it would be too complicated to run with Rolemaster.

Maybe now at last I will get the chance to play in a Mythic greek setting, perhaps with touches of Michael Scott Rohan's - A Spell of Empire.

[Spinachcat]

I am going to be running Mazes & Minotaurs at PolyCon and I will be writing up a playtest review afterwards.

I highly recommend that anyone interested in M&M sign up for the Yahoo! Group and download the TWO new supplements. Also someone very cool has created a few dozen paper miniatures (in color) to use for your games. The group is quite active in creating new monsters, house rules and other cool stuff. Recently someone wrote an interesting article on Weapon based Manuevers which add a new layer to combat options that could easily be translated to your Castles & Crusades or OD&D games.

They will soon be posting the Hekatheros (?) which will be their Monster Manual with over 100 mythologically inspired monsters for your game. This is in addition to the 100+ monsters already seen in the core book and the supplements.

I hope the authors decide to publish and sell a print version with professional layout and art. It would certainly take the gaming world by storm.

[jrients]

I hope the authors decide to publish and sell a print version with professional layout and art.

Ditto. I'd love a shiny professional hardback, but if Mr. Legrand has rights to the art or its public domain, I would buy a print-on-demand of the corebook from lul or somesuch.

[Melan]

Mazes & Minotaurs is a very well designed game, but one thing it didn't do for me was "look like the first RPG ever designed". It is a good companion to the Moldvay-Cook basic books, but it just lacks the idiosynchrasies, occasional dead-ends and "wow, we have just invented something great, but haven't fully figured out what to do with it, so have at it!" spirit of the Original D&D set.

We could say it is the set best known as "first" to many gamers, except for the low print run LeGrande which preceded it, only known to a select few.

But unlike OD&D, M&M is playable as it is. ;)

[Ahnirades]

I haven't read much of the system yet, despite downloading it a couple of months ago. I just keep getting side tracked by the hilarious sidebars. Anyone who remembers 70's and 80's gaming culture will value this as a comedy gem, especially the "...and, of course, Armour!" paragraph on page 17.

[Jaydee]

I downloaded the game a few days ago and I love it! My wife took one look at and was instantly taken, demanding I run a game.

A few more spells at each level for the magic-using characters to chose from would have been nice but apart from that it is a stellar game!

[RedFox]

Dude, this is free? Including the supplements?

Wow.

It's gonna take me awhile to read all this, but I'm impressed so far.

[privateer]

...A few more spells at each level for the magic-using characters to chose from would have been nice but apart from that it is a stellar game!

I actually think that the limited spell lists is a boon to the game. Sure every magic guy looks the same BUT it seems to have the makings of requiring a balanced party.

[jrients]

Mazes & Minotaurs is a very well designed game, but one thing it didn't do for me was "look like the first RPG ever designed". It is a good companion to the Moldvay-Cook basic books, but it just lacks the idiosynchrasies, occasional dead-ends and "wow, we have just invented something great, but haven't fully figured out what to do with it, so have at it!" spirit of the Original D&D set.

Yeah, "not as broken and incomplete as OD&D" is about the worst thing I can say about this game.

I actually think that the limited spell lists is a boon to the game. Sure every magic guy looks the same BUT it seems to have the makings of requiring a balanced party.

I also like the magic system in the corebook just fine as it is. In fact, the players options in the supplements don't do much for me at all. The Homeric combat looks awesome and I like most of the new critters and items. But if I ran M&M I'd stick with the core rules for chargen.

[JimLotFP]

I hope the authors decide to publish and sell a print version with professional layout and art. It would certainly take the gaming world by storm.

I'd buy it. Serious art and taking out the goofiness would help, though.

"Professional" layout may be taking it a bit far, as it would be cool for it to continue the "first ever role-playing game" schtick and go totally low-production value.

Mainly because I wouldn't want to buy it for too much. :D

[Oblivious ignorant elf]

;) ;) ;)
Not broken and incomplete? Where are the Zeus-blasted sailing rules? And am i the only person that considers nymph's to have a huge potential for power abuse? And forcing heroism down my char's throat while i just want to kill and take stuff?

[nemo]

My ultimate "wet dream" version of M&M would consist of a heavy-duty boxed set containing:

-The Anniversary edition of the rulebook, split into separate Maze Master and Player's Handbooks.

-All the current supplements printed as seperate booklets.

-A large poster map, with Mythika on one side and Mythic Greece (and surrounding areas) on the other

-"Bronze" or "knucklebone" dice

- a facsimile issue of The Griffin

- sheets of cardstock miniatures representing each character class, and most of the monsters.

-an errata, with some decent sailing rules :)

[The Fiendish Dr. Samsara]

Damn that's a good idea. I'd just add maybe Maze Module Alpha, "Into the Unknown, Wine-Dark Sea" OR Beta, "Fortress on the Borderlands", determined randomly. And possibly cardstock chits instead of dice.

[MonsterMash]

Well this thread has inspired me to go and download it now.

Thoughts once I've looked at it.

[AikiGhost]

I realize it was done as a quasi-joke, but dang if Mazes & Minotaurs doesn't capture the essence of late 70s/early 80s RPGing, IMHO. And it's FREE!


Link?

[Olivier.Legrand]

Hello everybody !

I must say I'm absolutely delighted by the enthusiastic reactions to Mazes & Minotaurs !

Would you folks allow me to quote some of your comments on a "praises" page for the M&M website ?

PS : For those who should wonder why I haven't posted earlier, I've been trying for weeks to post using my original login name (the one I had used for my rpgnet reviews of Amber etc), only to get "you can't post" replies... and all my mails asking for explanations were left unanswered. Then, a few minutes ago, I finally made my Idea roll and re-registered with a different ID. I just wished I had been that clever a few weeks ago, so I would have been able to post after Sergio Mascarenhas's review of the game... I guess we all have our Dumb Moments... but it's gooooood to be back !

Long live Mazes & Minotaurs !

Ah, yes the link !

http://storygame.free.fr/MAZES.htm

[gorillacus]

/old schooly rant/
:D
M&M, worst game EVER!!!!
It claims the Minaton as a monster. It is common knowledge that the Minaton was introduced by Harryhausen in his masterful 'Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger' in 1977. The authors claim to have introduced it in 1972 has totally ruined the game for me. Worst ever!!!!
/end pathetic old schooly letter to the Dra..I mean Griffin type rant/

At least that's how I'd have gone about it 'back in the day'.

Way to go Oliver!
I love this thing. My seminal D&D moment involved minotaurs and this really does the trick. Even now with the textual in-jokes and sly satire you press all my geek buttons. And damn if the whole thing doesn't look playable.

I have made sacrifice to Apollo and Athene on your behalf.

-Sean

BTW, if anybody can pre-reference the Minaton from 'Eye of the Tiger' I'd love to see it.

edit: unclear grammar

[Spinachcat]

Hail Olivier!

Thank you very much for your terrific game and I do hope you decide to publish in a printed hardcover sometime in the future. I am very excited about running it at future conventions. The Yahoo group has come up with some good house rules, especially the Weapons article and the Color Minis.

Keep up the great work!

[Olivier.Legrand]

BTW, if anybody can pre-reference the Minaton from 'Eye of the Tiger' I'd love to see it.

No, you're absolutely right. The Minaton was originally suggested by Paul Elliott when we were exchanging ideas about WHAT the M&M list of monsters should contain - and it does originate from the Ray Harryhausen's Sinbad movie. For more details about this fantabulous creature :

http://www.theseventhvoyage.com/minaton.htm

Of course, Harryhausen was one of the main sources of inspiration for the game. I still think that the skeletons scene in "Jason & the Argonauts" is a pure moment of genius - and it still holds very honorably when compared to present-day computer-animated FX. Strangely, although it was made some 15-16 years later, Clash of the Titans came nowhere close the masterpiece that is "Jason...", even on a purely technical level. But it's still essential material for those who want to immerse (or indulge) in the true spirit of M&M !

As for the 1972/1977 problem... well I guess it's again one of those weird time warps that sometimes occur between the M&M continuum and our reality (or "D&D continuum" if you will).

[gorillacus]

Great link, Oliver. That was Peter Mayhew in the Minaton suit!
Brilliant.

Consider my absurd time-warp nitpicking the finest of old school compliments.
As in 'if that's all you can find bad about it, it must be really good' school of thought.

Argonauts is the all time best.

-Sean

[jrients]

Would you folks allow me to quote some of your comments on a "praises" page for the M&M website ?

Feel free to quote me if anything I've written seems to merit it. It's the least I can do in repayment for such a nifty game!

[Olivier.Legrand]

Consider my absurd time-warp nitpicking the finest of old school compliments.

I took it thus ! It reminded me of all those "I feel that I must object to..." letters we loved back in the old days of Dragon, White Dwarf et al !:)

As for more time-warp absurd stuff, check the comments on the Tragic Floating Head in Men & Monsters ! :rolleyes:

[gorillacus]

As for more time-warp absurd stuff, check the comments on the Tragic Floating Head in Men & Monsters ! :rolleyes:

Bloody Hell...Zardoz!
:eek:

[Olivier.Legrand]

I've just posted the aforementioned "praises" page on the M&M site :

http://storygame.free.fr/praise.html

So far it looks a bit like a digest of this very thread - I'm currently searching my maiblox and the newsgroup archives for other appropriate quotes...

[MonsterMash]

Now downloaded, the only trouble is finding time to read it.