BURNING WHEEL: BELIEFS

[martimus]

Hey folks,

I've owned BW 2nd edition for about 12 months or so I guess. However this is the first time I've really sat down and given it a propper read through. I was just wondering what sort of beliefs people are using and how do you find you use them during play? Are they simply another form of kicker to get a campaign started? Or do you find that you genuinely reference back to them and use them alongside the artha rules?

Just interested to see what ideas folks are coming up with really. I think it will give an interesting insight into the kind of game worlds you are creating.

Thanks
Martimus

[martimus]

Can I take it from the huge silence that no one is playing BW?

[Suicide_King]

Well, I am running a BW game at the moment... the characters look like this:

Erasmus Paulus (Lars)
Lifepaths:
Born Noble, Religious Acolyte, Court Priest, Archpriest, Canon, Inquisitor
Beliefs:
-The Doctrine holds the answer to each and every question in life.
-The Church is the hand, power and will of God.
-The Woman is always secondary to the Man.
Instincts:
-Always be careful not to contradict the Doctrine.
-Always check food for poison.
-Always take note of people’s names and titles.
Traits:
Mark of Privilege, Tonsured, Royal Favorite, Imperious Demeanor, Suspicious, Faithful, Scheming, Cold-Blooded
Skills:
Doctrine (grey), Torture, Church-Law

Maximilliam Strauss (Esben)
Lifepaths:
City Born, Student, Footsoldier, Sergeant, Squire, Knight, Guard Captain, Vigilante (Freebooter)
Beliefs:
-True justice must be served
-You can never trust someone completely
-Religion and politics protect the nobility, I protect the weak.
Instincts:
-Always have my weapon ready.
-Never trust a friendly stranger.
-Always check my food before I eat.
Traits:
Pragmatic, Determined, Homage (lost), Exasperated, Cold-Blooded, Vigour of Youth
Skills:
Sword (grey), Stealth (grey), Intimidation

… (Kasper)
Lifepaths:
Born Peasant, Hunter, Trapper, Strider, Strider
Beliefs:
-The City corrupts people’s minds.
-The Forest must be respected and honoured.
-Every debt must be paid.
Instincts:
-Always cover my tracks.
-Always have an arrow on the string in dangerous or suspicious situations.
-Always check my equipment before travelling, or in the morning.
Traits:
Loner, Eagle Eye, Claustrophobic
Skills:
Forest-Wise, Stealth, Bow (grey)

This is actually an earlier edition of their beliefs, as they have changed slightly by now. Some of their beliefs are not that good, in that they do not offer an obvious "button" for me to push or are a little too abstract. Other than that though, they do show the basic idea of each character.

[martimus]

Thanks for the reply, I particularly like the sound of Erasmus. Wonderfully paranoid, I think I could get him into all sorts of trouble if I was GM-ing him! How does he test for poisons? Does he just get through a lot of food tasters? Is it all the women he has made to feel second rate who are trying to bump him off? :)

[Paka]

I'm playing.

Beliefs are what the campaign will be about.

So, for example, I go to my players and say that I want to run an epic campaign set in a city called Vault, that is built directly over hell and is keeping the damned from getting in an effort to keep the demons from getting out. Bam.

Now I have no idea what the shape of the campaign will be, that is just a really basic premise. The players and their beliefs will shape the campaign, give the game its villains and drives.

Hope that helps.

My AP thread is here. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=244292)

[Storn]

Yeah, Beliefs, Instincts and Traits are SO good, I'm swiping them for my Savage Worlds game. They drive story. They FLAG GMs to what the player's interest for those characters are.

In my Forgotten Realms game, I am removing gods left and right to now there are only 6. Into this decade long subplot behind the scenes, I dropped this NPC. A cleric/paladin type of the god of justice.

Beryl. disillusioned, drunk paladin.

Beliefs
*Gods have abandoned us, it is up to each one of us to help them come back.
*Justice is hard work, and I'm tired of all the lifting. I can't do it anymore.
*The god of justice is a great god and his Way is the Right Way.

Instincts
* Drink to cover the pain and abandoment
*Protect the weakest with the Law first.
*Invest/care about people without thinking, without protect own heart

[martimus]

Interesting to note Paka that you're running a Sorcerer campaign. You seem to use the belief system from BW in the same way that a Sorcerer campaign world is very much the construct of the players playing it. Would that be an accurate assumption? I think that's where I see the beliefs fitfing in myself, as a way of allowing the players to shape their own universe.

[mannydipresso]

I find that Beliefs (as well as Traits and Instincts, though to a slightly [only slightly] lesser extent) are like the beads on a necklace. You can't move very far on the chain without encountering one; though each one might be shaped a bit differently and have different flecks of color, they are the things that are the real source of interest and the things that give the necklace weight.

Eric

[Paka]

Interesting to note Paka that you're running a Sorcerer campaign. You seem to use the belief system from BW in the same way that a Sorcerer campaign world is very much the construct of the players playing it. Would that be an accurate assumption? I think that's where I see the beliefs fitfing in myself, as a way of allowing the players to shape their own universe.

Could you rephrase those first few sentences? I am having trouble de-coding them.

But I think my answer to the question would be...yes.

If I start a BW game with musketeers and one of the players mentions an evil Cardinal in their Beliefs, that evil Cardinal will damn well be in the game. I try not to have a scene that isn't tapping into someone's Beliefs in some concrete way.

This isn't to say that I keep my head down to the Beliefs when we play. It feels like an organic give and go process but when I get stuck, those Beliefs are where I go.

[martimus]

Anyone got any more nice examples to share?

[Thor Olavsrud]

Hi Martimus,

Back in March I was talking to another player new to Burning Wheel (http://burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2497&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=) who was also a little unsure about how to utilize Beliefs.

I'm going to repurpose pretty much my entire response to him below. The 'proto-beliefs' I refer to are what his players had written down for Beliefs.

Here's my current thinking on Beliefs:
A belief should contain an ideological stance of some sort.
A belief should contain a goal in the "I achieve this goal and earn a Persona point" sense.
A belief should express how the ideological stance drives the character to achieve the goal.

Most of the beliefs you've got are good proto-beliefs. In other words, almost all of them contain an ideological stance:
Valor is precious
The strong must protect the weak
Never trust someone I haven't fought with
My gang is my family
I will not see great men ignored
I will support efforts against the nobility
Violence alone accomplishes nothing.

All of these are strong ideological stances. With the addition of a goal and an action to achieve that goal, these will be very strong beliefs.

I should make an important point here: Beliefs are not meant to remain static. They are designed to grow and change. To be strengthened, weakened, resolved or broken. If a belief expresses something about your character that you never want to change, then it should be expressed as a trait instead.

A couple of the proto-beliefs build on a goal:
I will carry us to the safe, rich side of town.
I will get my brother back.

Now we're getting somewhere. Merged with an ideological stance, these will be beliefs that can be resolved and point players in a strongly proactive direction.

So let's take 1 and merge it with the crime family proto-belief:
My gang is my family and I will carry us to the safe, rich side of town.

That's much stronger. Now we know what he wants to accomplish (carrying them to the safe, rich side of town). Doing so will earn him a Persona point. We also know why he wants to do it (my gang is my family).

The only thing that's missing now is the 'how,' the action that will accomplish the goal.

It could be:
My gang is my family and I will carry us to the safe, rich side of town by destroying the gang that controls it now.

or maybe:
My gang is my family and I will carry us to the safe, rich side of town by turning us into a legit, respectable business.

The action really colors the belief, doesn't it? The two beliefs above are totally different in complexion, even though they appear similar.

Either way, with these beliefs, a player could use every scene he's in to push toward his goal, earning Fate every time. And when he resolves the goal, he'll earn a Persona. Then he'll rewrite the belief.

That's the player's responsibility. The GM's responsibility is to challenge the player's Beliefs. Find out how strong they are. Try to break them. Try to warp them. Make resolving Beliefs hard.That means opposition. It also means trying to introduce elements that make the player question the validity of his character's belief (or to sweep aside all questions and continue on single-mindedly).

If your player has the Belief:
My gang is my family and I will carry us to the safe, rich side of town by turning us into a legit, respectable business.

What does he do after members of the gang refuse to give up their criminal ways when he orders them? Does he still believe he can turn them into a legit, respectable business?

What if one of his lieutenants, a cousin, tries to off him over the changes he's making? Does he still consider the gang family?

And so on.

Does this make sense?

[Paka]

Wow, Thor, that is tight.

[martimus]

Thor that's a great break down of the rules.
I do get a little nervous at: 'Either way, with these beliefs, a player could use every scene he's in to push toward his goal, earning Fate every time. And when he resolves the goal, he'll earn a Persona. Then he'll rewrite the belief.

That strikes me as verging on the 'munchkin' side of using beliefs. Or perhaps a better way to put it would be it's a bit too much carrot and stick for my taste. I see the beliefs as providing a way to define some areas of the game world. Most assuredly if and when these beliefs come into play then artha will certainly be dished out. However I don't see beliefs as being simply a way to earn Fate, Deed or Persona points.

What I was more interested with in this thread are the actual beliefs people are using. Think of it as a way to take snap shot of the sort of fantasy worlds people are inventing.

[Thor Olavsrud]

That strikes me as verging on the 'munchkin' side of using beliefs. Or perhaps a better way to put it would be it's a bit too much carrot and stick for my taste. I see the beliefs as providing a way to define some areas of the game world. Most assuredly if and when these beliefs come into play then artha will certainly be dished out. However I don't see beliefs as being simply a way to earn Fate, Deed or Persona points.

The intention of Beliefs is that they fire all the time during play. They are what play should be about.

In our groups, players generally resolve and change a Belief every 2 to 3 sessions. A couple campaigns ago, we had a player who in the space of a seven session campaign managed to resolve all three of his Beliefs, change them as they were resolved, and then do it AGAIN. Six beliefs resolved in seven sessions of play.

It wasn't munchkinism. It was directed, proactive play. It was good stuff.

If you go two sessions without a Belief going off, it's dead weight in my opinion, and should be jettisoned for something else.

[Thor Olavsrud]

Here are a few of the Beliefs from my Burning Iberia game:

I may be a bastard, but I'm better than my legitimate brother Raoul. I will prove it by carving out my own fief.

Religion gives the people fire, and I will use shows of religion to win the people.

My brother Diego is touched by God. I will use my connection with King Fernando to make him Archbishop of Iria.

The Tower of my visions is the key to the magic of Iberia. I will go to any length to control the mysterious Tower.

The customs of this place are strange and enticing. I must keep Ulf from temptation and on the path to become a traditional viking king.

[Lord Berjznak]

Yikes, this rocks, because a friend and I almost got a Burning Wheel going, but we didnt have enough guys who wanted to as well.

Personally, Im jacked to run or play in one someday.

[martimus]

Thor, now I see what you're getting at. I must admit I hadn't thought of churning out beliefs that rapidly. It makes it sound like quite rollicking swash buckling fest! I like the idea very much. It certainly puts a different spin on the way I was intending to use them.

Oh and Lord? It is a very well put together game. If you've read any of the other FORGE inspired games, you'll have no problems with BW.

[Lord Berjznak]

Thor, now I see what you're getting at. I must admit I hadn't thought of churning out beliefs that rapidly. It makes it sound like quite rollicking swash buckling fest! I like the idea very much. It certainly puts a different spin on the way I was intending to use them.

Oh and Lord? It is a very well put together game. If you've read any of the other FORGE inspired games, you'll have no problems with BW.

Well, were running Iron Hero now, and when we rap up with this we have Space:1889 and Shadowrun coming up, followed by Call of Cthulu. By then, dammit, they better be ready for BW.

[Thor Olavsrud]

Thor, now I see what you're getting at. I must admit I hadn't thought of churning out beliefs that rapidly. It makes it sound like quite rollicking swash buckling fest! I like the idea very much. It certainly puts a different spin on the way I was intending to use them.

Cool man. Glad I clarified.

We like to play at a very brisk pace at BWHQ, which is why we push for Beliefs to churn like that. It's cool to play it in a more leisurely fashion too, but the idea is the same, whether you aim to resolve one of your Beliefs every 2 to 3 sessions or every 4 to 6 sessions.

The important thing is that play needs to really revolve around the beliefs.

[Brand_Robins]

Thor is the sage.

[Waiwode]

I really like the "fleshed out beliefs" you advocate in this thread, Thor. But:

I may be a bastard, but I'm better than my legitimate brother Raoul. I will prove it by carving out my own fief.
...some of the Beliefs, although very evocative and well fleshed out don't seem to be "roll over every two to four session" beliefs. They seem to be the main focus of the campaign. Or maybe I'm thinking too small scale.

The Tower of my visions is the key to the magic of Iberia. I will go to any length to control the mysterious Tower.
And some of them seem to be never to resolve Beliefs. Or never resolve much ... this character may well end up with "...I will go to any length to maintain control of the Tower." after he gains control of it. Assuming it is a controllable thing.

Doug.

[bts]

Can I take it from the huge silence that no one is playing BW?

I'm willing to bet that nobody was playing BW *and* posting about it between 4 and 6 this morning.

[Thor Olavsrud]

I think both of those are achievable in a few sessions. The fief one should be fulfilled in our next session, which will be the third session in which he's really pushed this belief. He's betrayed his father, the count, allied with his enemy (King Fernando), and hired a force of Berber mercenaries to aid him in the attack. It's been very exciting.

As for the tower, I interpret it more as about finding and controlling the secret that the tower contains. As soon as he controls that secret, he's fulfilled the belief. In my opinion, it's perfectly fine to start with one or two "loose" beliefs and then tighten them up in play. It's not how I usually do it, but I've seen others do it with great success.

[Paka]

Here are the Beliefs from the campaign I am running, a game that should be finished in the next two sessions or so. Included are the PC's and the villains:

Ungul ul Parma - Dwarven Master Craftsman and Seneschal to The Dragon


Beliefs:
I can meld the races arts together
Anything worth doing is worth taking the time to do right
I will preserve the wonders of the races

Instincts:
I will always reveal knowledge
When my friends are going to throw their lives away, I get in the way
Never be too proud to learn


Sir Bogart, honorable knight and brother to First Son Xarven the Chosen of Hell
(Kolja, Xarven's player, decided to retire his evil character to NPC status and play his pure as the driven snow brother with a demonic sword)


Beliefs:
I am my brother's last hope.

I will not be tainted by the sword.

A knight's duty is first to his people, then to his lord.

Instincts:
If a spell is cast, my sword is swung.

Always keep your courtesies.

Always stay hidden from Xarven.

Lord Simon Aermegil, Champion of Man, First of the Rising Blades, the Butcher

Beliefs

* My children's lives will not be so dark as mine.
* The Vault was my family's downfall; it will be my family's rebirth. (This one may get tweaked to include more of the redemption of Vault from Hell's forces.)
* I will wrest the body and soul of this world from Hell's grasp.


Instincts

* If there's trouble, draw steel.
* If armored, go Aggressive.
* Never be taken alive.

Huor Celebrindal, Herald of the Dawn, Phoenix Prince of The North

Beliefs
-Aermegil will sit the throne of Man.
-I can end this all with a swing of my sword.
-I love my brother, not the king.

Instincts
-Always wake with the Dawn.
-I am never without my sword.
-Always protect the last of my people first.

The Dragon

Beliefs
- The damned are my treasures and none shall take them from me.

- The surface should send me even more tribute, lest I hunger for Vault's treasures.

- I have always been a Dragon and any who say otherwise are doomed to a fiery death.

Instincts
- Always assume they are here to steal my treasures.

- Never trust anyone unless they truly worship my draconic might.

- When attacked, breath fire.


The Lord of Fire, Fury and Famine

Beliefs

- Creationg will pay for my fall, taste a morsel of the suffering that I have felt.

- Those who stand in my way shall die by fire; those who stand with me will be saved for last.

- I am a walking holocaust, eater of worlds, destroyer of hope.

Instincts

- Always Aggressive

- In DoW, their souls must always be on the line.

- Always consume what I can, whenever I can.

[martimus]

I'm willing to bet that nobody was playing BW *and* posting about it between 4 and 6 this morning.

What, you mean you yanks don't stay up all night reading the boards?! Damn there goes another limey misconception of our former colony.:D

If I dare speak for him, I don't think that that Thor was suggesting all beliefs should be rolled over so quickly, but I must admit it didn't occur to me to use them as a way for pushing the plot of the adventure along.

[Paka]

If I dare speak for him, I don't think that that Thor was suggesting all beliefs should be rolled over so quickly, but I must admit it didn't occur to me to use them as a way for pushing the plot of the adventure along.

Yeah, they shape the campaign and give the adventures the gas to go.

They are an open letter to the GM that says, "This is what is cool about my character."

So, for example, I had an orc attack on a castle the PC's were staying at last game. It was the first game after a long hiatus and I wanted to open with a bang.

And I attacked something on each of the character's Beliefs.

And they each jumped to defend it.

[taepoong]

These are the Beliefs of a reformed Sith Jedi that played in my Star Wars campaign last year:

-War is the last choice. Diplomacy is needed to circumvent unneeded violence. That is the only way all sides can get some of what they want.
-The Sith betrayed my trust and used me as in instrument of deceit and dishonor. I will show them that the quick way to power isnt always the best way.
-Even though i am a Sith the Jedi Council have accepted me into the temple. This shows me that redemption is possible. I must prove my worth to the Council by actions not by words.

Here are the Beliefs of an onmyoji character that played in my Wrath of the Ronin campaign:

-Being a wu jen requires one to do the horrible on occasion.
-The Ancestors must be appeased with the blood of the traitors.
-Everyone should seek to better themselves in their station.

And here's the Beliefs of all the characters that partook in my Fool's Quest all-dwarf campaign which I ran a couple years back:

- I need to unify the Dwarfs.
- The Oath-breakers must be punished.
- No fight is finished until an orc dies by my blade.

- Only a High King will end war.
- The High King must be worthy.
- War only begets war.

- The Captain knows the right thing to do.
- Unity equals Strength equals Life.
- Violence speaks louder than anything.

- I will know the secrets of the Mithril.
- What was once forged shall not be broken.
- Lizards are my friends.

- The key to becoming chief of my clan lies in the High King's Hall.
- Division will destroy us all.
- I lead, no one else, in the deep tunnels.

- Never settle for given price
- Make self center of story

When beginning a campaign, we talk about the campaign goal, obstacles we'd like to see, character concepts, and Beliefs all at the same time. Beliefs really tie the characters together and create the plot. I always make sure to have my players have at least one belief tied directly to the campaign goal.

[martimus]

So I can take it then that people are using the belief system with quite a few games then, not just BW?

[Paka]

So I can take it then that people are using the belief system with quite a few games then, not just BW?

Huh?

You lost me.

[Thor Olavsrud]

So I can take it then that people are using the belief system with quite a few games then, not just BW?

Taepoong ran Star Wars in the Burning Wheel system. All the PCs were Jedi. He came up with some neat Force powers too.

The other games he mentioned were also Burning Wheel games. :cool:

[Tetnahkshem]

I think these are all "Burning Wheel" games, that is, I *think* Taepoong is saying: my Star Wars campaign using the Burning Wheel system, my Wrath of the Ronin campaign using the BW system, etc.

But I could be totally wrong here.

Edit: Scooped by Thor!

[Raegenhere]

Character:

Severian, Exiled Torturer Turned Executioner (aka Gene Wolfe novels with a bit of licence)

Beliefs:

1. The Guild members shame our profession, I'll make them see this truth even if I have to burn their eyes out to make them see it
2. Gallerius the Master Prefect is jealous of me, I will have his position and his head when I wrest control from him
3. My Powers are already vast compared to my brethren, I embrace my exile to search for esoteric knowledge to help me overthrow "The Inner Circle"

Instincts:

1. Always listen intently to what is being said for inconsistencies, lies, ommissions, incongruities (they always give themselves away)
2. Always react politely and urbanely - it puts people off and confuses them as to your real motives
3. Never tell the truth - avoid, embellish, lie (never let them know the true and inner workings of your mind, thoughts and feelings)
4. Never miss a chance to terrify the accused (or their families) to extort money ("you know how horribly painful it is if I don't hack your head off in the first blow")

[taepoong]

Sorry about the confusion! Yes, all those beliefs were from BW games. Star Wars was the only campaign I didn't run right from the book, obviously. I listed them to show the great flexibility and cross-genre potential that I see in BW's mechanics.

[martimus]

It's really interesting to see what people have been up to with BW, I guess some of my short sightedness is due to not having run the game yet. I'm expecting it will really come alive for me once I get my group into it. The same thing happened with Sorcerer.

I guess the next obvious question is: Would you use the belief system from BW with other games?

And thanks for all the responses guys, I think this might be one of several threads I'll be posting about bits of BW. I can feel one coming on about the resources 'skill' even now.:)

[Thanuir]

Would you use the belief system from BW with other games?Yes.

[Paka]

I guess the next obvious question is: Would you use the belief system from BW with other games?

I'm certainly looking for ways, in every system I play, for players to tell me what they want out of the game.

Be it Keys in Shadow of Yesterday or Spiritual Attributes in Riddle of Steel what-have-you.

[Thor Olavsrud]

Hey martimus,

I think the important thing to consider when trying to export Beliefs to another system is that Beliefs don't stand alone mechanically.

They are part of a reward feeback loop (or currency as we call it). Beliefs work because they inform everyone what you're interested in making the game about, and then you get rewarded with Artha for making the game about that. It creates a virtuous cycle.

If you want to use it elsewhere, you'll want to tie it into a reward cycle of some sort to give it some fuel.

[mannydipresso]

Thor's point is crucial.

Without that link to a reward system/cycle, Beliefs sould be just some useless color.

That's why Spiritual Attributes in Riddle of Steel are similarly linked to the reward/advancement system. That's how resolution of the Kicker works in Sorcerer.

When I first encountered this idea, it was something of an eyeopener. I had been accustomed to thinking that achieving Narrativist-type goals simply required convincing everyone that the achievement of such a thing would be its own reward.

I don't think so anymore. Folks understandably want some sort of satisfactions that will help fuel play and encourage the very behavior you've all agreed is a priority.

Eric

[Storn]

Hey martimus,

I think the important thing to consider when trying to export Beliefs to another system is that Beliefs don't stand alone mechanically.

They are part of a reward feeback loop (or currency as we call it). Beliefs work because they inform everyone what you're interested in making the game about, and then you get rewarded with Artha for making the game about that. It creates a virtuous cycle.

If you want to use it elsewhere, you'll want to tie it into a reward cycle of some sort to give it some fuel.

Which is why precisely IF i import BiTs to Savage Worlds, it will be the generator for more "Bennies" and more "Adventure Cards". Bennies are simplified Artha. Adventure Cards are more like the Torg event cards.. powerful, but specific co-GM event impact situations. Like, "Minor Enemy NPC is actually friend/family of PC" to combat effects; "Hit Real Good" +d6 damage on next shot.

Tagging Beliefs and Traits (by the player) at the table can generate Bennies. Tagging Instincts gain Adventure Cards, especially when it drives story dramatically.

It is not quite the elaborate Artha pt breakdown of reward, but it is reward oriented.

[Sean Musgrave]

My first BW game, playing Nathaniel, the bandit bastard-would-be-king

The Throne belongs to me, I belong on it.
Living beneath my station is shamefull.
The Bandit lifestyle fills me with joy like no other.

Hadrian, the rakish magician/con man
Beliefs:
Religious figures don't get a lot of action... unless they're, you know...
My mentor truly lived life to its fullest and I aspire to become more like him.
My mentor screwed me over and I'm going to make him pay.

Marcellus, the crusader.

The mission of the crusade must be accomplished.
I will deliver Claudius unharmed.
Oath: Celibacy
I will see Hadrian sacrifice for our faith.

ALladar, Elven supremecist zealot

- I will stop the spread of technology, paving the way for the return of Elvish supremacy.
- I never need the help of a mud race.
- Lessers should always respect their betters, or their betters will make them respect.

Sorel Devitt, young royal inquistor of technology

Executing my duty is integral to Wysteria's survival.
I will do anything to ensure House Devitt is restored.
I have to keep the expedition together.

Heart's Blood, Orc Warrior and member of the inquistion of technology

-A new uprising of Darkness will breed many who would usurp my place; I will not allow this.
-These soft creatures do not deserve such opulance and comfort, and I am meant to take it from them.
-These fools and children (other PCs) will open the door for the destruction I bring; use them.

IF you haven't already done so, I'd strongly recommend loking at the burning wheel forum's Wheel of Life, as it has an extensive list of character write ups which include beliefs. http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=3&topicdays=0&start=0

[highpriestrsw2]

How odd.
A Burning Wheel thread that doesn't have a single post by Luke.
I wonder if it's been dead for several months and I'm resurrecting it.
I searched burning wheel beliefs (using the google look up someone posted else where) because I was creating characters with a buddy of mine last night (until at 1 AM I reached the area of diminishing returns on my mental faculties having been up since 4 AM the previous day) He had questions about how beliefs function and for the life of me I couldn't string together a coherent explanation, nor could I locate it in the book. :p :( Damn need to sleep! :D

Any help?

[RichD]

Actually this thread has been dormant for over two years

Well for book references, look on page 30 of the red book and on the earning artha section on page 65 of the brown book.

[Mondscheinkonig]

mmm...necro...

http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2313
http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2004