[Oblivion][Necro] How does the Mages Guild define Necromancy?

[JakeMorley]

I guess the question is: is it possible to get booted out for practicing it?

I'm playing a Khajiit Ahent who is in the Mages Guild, Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood. I recently saved my character's ass with a well timed summoning scroll, so I'm thinking of beefing up my Conjuration abilities. A lot of the low level stuff is summoning Skeletons and Zombies and stuff, and I'm particularly interested in the Zombies for their ability to be big, decaying sacks of HP. If I start calling them up, though, will I get turfed? Should I just stick to summoning Daedra?

[Mortimer]

They occasionally tell you that you 'smell like death' but they don't seem to mind if YOU practice conjuration it seems.

[MadDogMike]

Game doesn't notice at all how much necromancy you do; I completed the "watch how black soul gems are made" quest by making one of my own on the altar and the guild didn't even blink :D .

[Zombie Shakespeare]

Sadly, not much comes of you summoning all manner of demons or raising undead in the streets.

*SPOILER*






Even after making my own black soul gems, gleefully filling them with humanoid souls, and then using them to enchant equipment, nothing happened. It's a big damn oversight, considering how the whole mage story arc revolved around stamping out necromancy, that you can go around freely practicing it without any repercussions. As with other aspects of the game, just don't look too closely and you'll be fine....

[bv728]

Conjuring Skeletons and Zombies isn't Necromancy, under Guild Law, as it doesn't actually involve the Body or Soul of a formerly living being, but a construct of Magicka. As a player, you can't actually learn the secrets of Necromancy as far as I can tell.

[Hia]

By the way. . .are black soul gems more poweerful than grand soul gems?

[Tar Markvar]

Conjuring Skeletons and Zombies isn't Necromancy, under Guild Law, as it doesn't actually involve the Body or Soul of a formerly living being, but a construct of Magicka. As a player, you can't actually learn the secrets of Necromancy as far as I can tell.

Sure you can, in a way.

You can take Mannimarco's staff and raise the bodies of those you recently killed.

Black soul gems is as close to necromancy as you'll get. I think the Mage's Guild is centered on stamping out a particular sect of necromancers, and not necessarily the practice in and of itself.

Killing Mannimarco and taking out his cult is a major blow against organized necromancy, but the practice of making black soul gems, which is really what necromancy seems to be about, remains. After all, to really stop it, you'ld have to take the Necromancer's moon out of the sky, wouldn't you?

It might have been nice if enchanting things with Black soul gems left some kind of detectable aura or taint on the item, but I'm sure someone could mod that in. As it is, the icky feeling I get from using them is enough payoff for me.

[Tar Markvar]

By the way. . .are black soul gems more poweerful than grand soul gems?

Well, yes and no. In game terms, they have the same value, but any humanoid soul you trap in a black soul gem counts as Grand for enchanting purposes, as far as I can tell.

So, they don't have more power than Grand gems, but they're much easier to fill to capacity.

[Zombie Shakespeare]

Conjuring Skeletons and Zombies isn't Necromancy, under Guild Law, as it doesn't actually involve the Body or Soul of a formerly living being, but a construct of Magicka. As a player, you can't actually learn the secrets of Necromancy as far as I can tell.

I'd be willing to buy that, except you can eventually summon ghosts, wraiths, etc. The implication there is that you are now directly harnessing someone's soul, which seems to put you squarely in the camp of necromancy; however, we could sit here all day pointing out how the game contradicts itself, again, I'll go back to what I said in an earlier post, just don't look too closely and you'll be fine ;)

[Tar Markvar]

I'd be willing to buy that, except you can eventually summon ghosts, wraiths, etc. The implication there is that you are now directly harnessing someone's soul, which seems to put you squarely in the camp of necromancy; however, we could sit here all day pointing out how the game contradicts itself, again, I'll go back to what I said in an earlier post, just don't look too closely and you'll be fine ;)

It's not stated explicitly in the game (unless it's in one of those books), but I inferred that there's a difference between conjuring undead and MAKING undead.

Conjuring undead takes an undead creature (ghost, spectre, lich, or the king, the HEADLESS ZOMBIE) from Somewhere Else. Just like conjuring a scamp. It's in the Conjuration school, makes the conjuration noise, lights up little conjuration lights, etc. Most of all, it's just a spell; it doesn't require a mortal soul. It creates or summons a skeleton that does its thing until the spell is over and then goes back to wherever it came from.

Making undead is a different thing. It requires black soul gems and rituals and the necromancers' moon and so on (from what I recall from the Mages' Guild quest). You sacrifice a living being or exploit a corpse to create undead. The only way a player can perform true Necromancy in Oblivion is to use the item I mentioned before in the spoiler box, though the player can make and use black soul gems, too.

I could be wrong, but that's what I gathered. It's a good enough explanation for me.

[Zombie Shakespeare]

It's not stated explicitly in the game (unless it's in one of those books), but I inferred that there's a difference between conjuring undead and MAKING undead.

I guess next you'll want to argue the physics and consistency in Star Trek episodes? Seriously, to reiterate, don't look too closely at this and you'll be fine ;) The mage guild story arc is one of many good story arcs existing in the game world, just don't get hung up on the details.

[Iacobus]

I guess next you'll want to argue the physics and consistency in Star Trek episodes? Seriously, to reiterate, don't look too closely at this and you'll be fine ;) The mage guild story arc is one of many good story arcs existing in the game world, just don't get hung up on the details.

what

His post posited a perfectly valid and rational explanation.

[Allon]

Isn't necromancy like errm... perfectly legal in the empire?

[ulmont]

Isn't necromancy like errm... perfectly legal in the empire?Legal in the empire (which of course has its own problems right now), banned by the current administration in the Mage Guild.

[MadDogMike]

It might have been nice if enchanting things with Black soul gems left some kind of detectable aura or taint on the item, but I'm sure someone could mod that in. As it is, the icky feeling I get from using them is enough payoff for me.

Depends on who you trap in them, really; my usage of them primarily involves filling them with necromancers and coming up with humorously ironic usages for the stone (healing items are particularly my favorites). I also have Mankar Cammoran sitting in one on the table in the den of my Anvil mansion next to his staff and robe. I like to think of him shrieking curses at me as I use him as a paperweight :D .

[Tar Markvar]

Depends on who you trap in them, really; my usage of them primarily involves filling them with necromancers and coming up with humorously ironic usages for the stone (healing items are particularly my favorites). I also have Mankar Cammoran sitting in one on the table in the den of my Anvil mansion next to his staff and robe. I like to think of him shrieking curses at me as I use him as a paperweight :D .

I was using them on random bandits and crap and then cackling like a madman as I used their souls to fuel my +Strength gear.

[JakeMorley]

I guess next you'll want to argue the physics and consistency in Star Trek episodes? Seriously, to reiterate, don't look too closely at this and you'll be fine ;) The mage guild story arc is one of many good story arcs existing in the game world, just don't get hung up on the details.

Sort of the principle behind it being legal to steal from the victims of your Dark Brotherhood jobs. ;)

[Oskar Breytenbach]

I thought Mannimarco was the king of worms, who became a god at the end of Daggerfall (and all possible endings of Daggerfall actually occured, due to some weird paradox)? So who's this guy with the staff?

[Zombie Shakespeare]

I thought Mannimarco was the king of worms, who became a god at the end of Daggerfall (and all possible endings of Daggerfall actually occured, due to some weird paradox)? So who's this guy with the staff?

Not sure myself, only played Morrowind before this, but:

*SPOILER*






I thought the encounter with Mannimarco at the end of the mage story arc was rather weak considering how much this guy had been built up. I mean a plain old high elf is the King of Worms? Couldn't they have at least used the lich model they already have in game? If you haven't gotten to the end yet, and you're on the PC, I recommend checking out a mod that the community has been working on that completely overhauls this encounter, including a full retexture of Mannimarco.

[chumchum]

Well other than soul trapping people there's another blatant form of necromancy you can perform

*mild spoiler*

after killing the Worm king at the end of the mages guild quest line, you can search his corps and he has the Staff of Worms which you can use on a corpse and the body will raise from the dead and follow you around attacking whatever attacks you, but it only lasts 30 seconds, it can be very useful when when fighting multiple enemies.

[keinve]

Sure you can, in a way.

You can take Mannimarco's staff and raise the bodies of those you recently killed.

Black soul gems is as close to necromancy as you'll get. I think the Mage's Guild is centered on stamping out a particular sect of necromancers, and not necessarily the practice in and of itself.

Killing Mannimarco and taking out his cult is a major blow against organized necromancy, but the practice of making black soul gems, which is really what necromancy seems to be about, remains. After all, to really stop it, you'ld have to take the Necromancer's moon out of the sky, wouldn't you?

It might have been nice if enchanting things with Black soul gems left some kind of detectable aura or taint on the item, but I'm sure someone could mod that in. As it is, the icky feeling I get from using them is enough payoff for me.

Mannimarco's staff is as close as you can get to necromancy, but it's pretty much the same as summoning a weak deadra for thirty seconds.

how is the point of necromancy to create black soul gems? i find it much more likley that the entire point is to reverse death in a form useful to the practicer, or the practicers employer. of course, their are more uses, such as this (taken from 'on the preperation of a corpse')

'Summerset Isle is even worse in some ways. Some Altmer born into the most respected noble and scholarly families are actually allowed to study the dead in the open. Their research, however, seems to be centered on finding ways to extend their lives even further rather than the more practical uses of our Art.'

the wording indicates that, while necromancy CAN be used to prolong life, the real advantages lie in the dead. if anyone had read Preperation, then they would see no mention of soul gems, let alone black soul gems. if the necromancers were concerned with simply getting souls, then why would any necromancer take care when creating a servant, when a simple skeleton would do to help them get more souls?

[Durandal]

Speaking of necromancy. :D

[Maggie]

Speaking of necromancy. :D

Yeah, that's kind of awesome.

[Fade]

If you've completed the Mage's Guild questline then the person who decides whether or not necromancy is illegal is, guess what, you. You're the archmage, and it was the previous archmage that banned it. If you want to practice it, there's nobody who can say no.