European vs American Larp weapons

[StumpyDave]

Can any of our resident American Larpers please explain to me why boffer weapons are so fugly?

(I realise that this may appear to be little more than a mass personal attack. Please let me assure you this is not the case. It's merely that I'm fascinated by the apparent gulf between the quality and appearance of the respective continents pretend weaponry).

Thanks

[Lord Minx]

Hah, I've been wondering that myself. :D

But then, I can see one, possibly two, advantages of the "uglier" weapons: They are cheaper and, possibly, safer. (Many of them seem to have a much thicker padding then the more "realistic" looking ones.)

M

[Jiituomas]

Actually, many European countries' larps have just as ugly boffer weapons as are seen in pictures of American larps. The primary reasons are price, availability and safety. Anyone can make a boffer sword with simple instructions, at next to no cost. They're usually a lot safer in combat than most of the stylish latex weaponry, and also clearly props, so you can carry them visibly when going to a game. (These are all reasons that I've heard from people who professionally organize childrens' larps in Europe. Most of them are very, very boffer-friendly.)

In addition, cultural issues may of course be significant in this as well. In a country with a far more problematic, punitive legal system and a game culture that favors no-touching games, going with the "safe bet" is a very smart choice.

[Attila-IV]

I'de say LARPers in the US tend to use home made boffers because they are both cheap and easy to build. While many would love to use molded foam latex weapons, they arn't easily availible. To the best of my knowledge the only way to get them in the states is to import them from europe, and that ups the price. Any time I have seen such weapons for sale at conventions they tend to marked up pretty high. I've also run into a handful of larpers who do not trust foam latex weapons for safety reasons, although I never udnerstood why.

[Gimby]

Me either. 95%+ of LARP related injuries seem entirely unrelated to weapons. I can't speak for the continent, but many UK LARPs have a "pull your blows" policy- so while the latex weapons are less padded than big boffers blows are struck with less force than a "full contact" system. In fact, all the complaints about weapons I had (from a few years as a club weapons checker) were from the Karrimat and Gaffa weapons.

[James Holloway]

Well, the boffer fantasy games in the UK seem to be larger, and of course they're much closer together. This might increase the potential market size for nice boffer weapons?

[NERO Aeon]

I'm glad you posted this thread, as I was considering doing something similar.

I am a huge advocate of Boffer weapons in comparison to Latex weapons. This comes 90% from the nature of latex weapons when it comes to safety, and 10% from a cost point of view.

Latex weapons are not liekly to kill anyone, but they definately compress to a harder surface then a properly build boffer. While all the games that I have plaed in also require that blows be pulled, and only require a touch to be an effective hit, it does not mean that this will always be the case. In every game that I have played there is always a handful of people who hit too hard - adding a smaller impact surface area would be even more detrimental.

I ahve never seen a latex weapon that could be thrusted with. Since I believe that a thrusting move should be viable for most swords, I can't see why I would want to limit myself by using a latex weapon. Taking away thrusting removes some of the only tactical advantages one can get in a LARP situation, such as door battles.

The major advantage to a latex weapon is the look, and there is no doubt that it does it's job. I have seen boffer weapons made to safety spec that looked quite realistic (from a boffer point of view), but they still do not compare with latex.

As noted above the other reason is cost. I believe that most people spend 2K a year on their hobby, and that LARP is no different - but that is without the cost of a Latex weapon. In Canada a boffer weapon costs anywhere from $10-17 to make; a latex weapon cost on average of $105. The lowest that I have seen is $90.

This is quite an increase in cost, expecially considering that you will probably have to repair/replace your weapon once a year. Repairing a boffer is easily half of what it cost you to make it the first time, unlike latex where the cost to repair is almost as much as replacing it.

[GoOrange]

A lot of the weapons at our boffer LARP (here in the US) are really quite elegant. Our foremost weapon maker has really got it down to an art form. We use fiberglass cores, camping mat foam, DAP adhesive, a latex coating and paint for most of the weapon, with leather and such for the accoutrements. Each weapon is unique, lightweight, safe, and damn good looking. We've done all kinds of weapons from dagger and swords to axes and polearms, some rather exotic in shape.

I've seen pictures of LARPers using weapons made up of pipe insulation or pool noodles on PVC cores coated with duck tape, and thought they looked a little silly.

So I guess my experience has been different, thanks to several skilled boffer makers.

[xReubenx]

I'm afraid the only boffers I've seen have been of the silly variety. The ones that vaguely look like weapons have been ludicrously disproportionate. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's great fun for all involved.

I'm pretty sure that here in england I can pick up a latex sword for about £30, so the cost comparison between the two isn't really a problem for me.

As for the safety issue of latex weapons, I wasn't aware there was a problem. Anyways, I usually play with steel weapons so that isn't really important either;)

About the thrusting thing, 8 or 9 years ago (gee, that makes me feel so young) I played a larp and by sheer fluke I ended up running full tilt and leaping onto the end of a latex sword. Sure, I was winded and doubled-up on the ground, but it was a **** load funnier than it was painful. Thrusting seemed more likely to damage the sword than hurt anyone.

I'm not exactly a veteran of latex combat (having only done it once or twice. The combat I mean, not what you're thinking) and I haven't used boffers at all. So feel free to dismiss anything I've said that you don't agree with as random babblings.

Like I said, I'm sure boffer combat is immense fun for all involved. But since the cost and apparent safety factor really isn't an issue for me, it comes down to aesthetics. So latex comes out on top. Unless you count steel weapons:D

[Theodore Sign]

I'll reiterate what has been said before: safety, ease of repair, cost, and thrusting capability. I do have a few other observations:

This might be a surprising, but I actually prefer the appearance of "ugly" boffer weapons. Latex weapons look a little too "shlock fantasy" to me. Once you get beyond swords, and into axes/maces, they look even more ridiculous (sort of like the "replica" weapons they sell on the home shopping network) I like the abstract simplicity of a well-made pipe insulation weapon. Also, I have yet to hold a latex weapon that was balanced to my standards, but YMMV.

Latex is surprisingly heavy, believe it or not. With kite spar and well-cut insulation (along with kite or sail repair tape) you'd be amazed at how light these weapons can be.

As far as "tent mat" weapons go, they tend to look a little more like latex weapons, with blade geometry and all, but they often have the same problem with having too hard a striking surface. It makes sense, after all; swords were designed to be sharp, and if you make a weapon with a similar geometry, it will function a bit more like what it is supposed to represent. Still, a nice comprimise between the two designs, and tent mat blades are generally as thrust safe as a comperable pipe foam weapon.

Here is a question that might lead to another conclusion about weapon wear and tear. How often (per year) do European LARPs usually meet?

[Ambrogino]

Wear and tear on latex weapons is dependant on the manufacturor and the use. I've got swords I've been using for 5-6 years which don't need a lick of latex more on them, and some guys make ones that fall apart after their first use. Learning who you're buying them from before putting your money down is important (as is making sure there are multiple layers of latex to build up a strong bond.

Karrimat's a terrible foam for building weapons with. It compresses, and becomes hard which is why they hurt more. Calogen will reform to it's previous shape. This also puts less stress on the latex coating causing it to tear less.

Latex weapons can be made to stab with when the blows are pulled (as they should be with all blows). Most large systems still ban this, because people are idiots, and if they see someone stabbing with their coreless low density foam shiv then they go out and start stabbing people with their own cored high density foam claymore and someone gets hurt. LT didn't start weapons checking people until after a group turned up with steel reenactment weapons wrapped in Gaffa tape, so systems have to presume every single person at the game is a psychotic moron when writing safety aspects.

Looking like crazy fantasy display weapons - previously yes, though many suppliers are cottonning on to the fact that some LRPers want decent looking realistic weapons and are starting to produce these. Notably the few suppliers that make injection moulded pieces tend to look shocking realistic (and also tend to be very well weighted too).

I'm not understanding the cost issue for home making your own weapons. Yeah, a really nice Latex weapon from a proffessional supplier will cost lots more than a shoddy looking boffer one you make yourself, but putting the stuff together to make your own one can't cost more than twice as much, to look 100 times better. If you buy as a club and get everything in bulk it'll come down even more.

How often do Euro LRP's meet - The big fest style ones 4-6 long weekends a year. Some clubs are 1 a month or more, Labyrinthe runs all saturdays and sundays and thursdays during the holidays all round the year (though it's based on small linears so it's rare the same people play both days of the same weekend, let alone every single session).

[Theodore Sign]

I'm not understanding the cost issue for home making your own weapons. Yeah, a really nice Latex weapon from a proffessional supplier will cost lots more than a shoddy looking boffer one you make yourself, but putting the stuff together to make your own one can't cost more than twice as much, to look 100 times better. If you buy as a club and get everything in bulk it'll come down even more.

Ah, but for a lot of LARPers (the US ones I know, anyway), making your own stuff is a great deal of the fun; this is a craft hobby, 'round these parts.

Certainly there is an outlay for supplies to kit up so that you can make weapons, but you can recoup that rather quickly. Foam is cheap, tape is cheap, and the other things you need are probably around your house anyway.

In any case, I simply don't see the stuff I have as "shoddy," so there is no impetus to change. Performance is the issue here, for me, and I can say, without an instant's hesitation, that my "plumbing supply" weapon will perform just as well (in balance, wear, and handling) as any Latex/hybrid sword you put up against it, and for a fraction of the cost. Oh, and I stab the hell out of folks; not to many LARPs around here ban it, though the ones that do use lots of latex.

Another question. What do you do at an event if your tip rips off?

[Lord Minx]

Another question. What do you do at an event if your tip rips off?What crappy weapons do you have where the tip rips of? :confused:

M

[Jon H]

Another question. What do you do at an event if your tip rips off?

Speaking as someone that helped run a latex weapon manufacturer's workshop for some 3 years ("Kin Cheap" for the UK guys that might recognise the name):

A properly made latex weapon tip should be one of the last things to go. The tip is reinforced within the block of foam layers with leather, or a variety of other suitable materials. It should be tremendously difficult to tear off.

If folk lean on their sword tips then the chance of a breakage is increased - but that's serious weapon-abuse to do so. And of course some people make their swords incorrectly, without tip reinforcement, which is just craziness. Its not safe nor practical to leave out a tip reinforcer.

Since 99% of events have a weapons checking proceedure, and having done this myself many times, any swords with damaged tips that are likely to tear would fail a check and not be permitted to be used.

Of course its not as easy to repair a latex sword in situ as it woud be a gaffer/boffer weapon. But presumably its all about the realistic look for a lot of latex weapon users, so you weigh up the pros and cons.

A professionally made, isoflexed (a clear flexible roofing primer used as a varnish) latex sword should last a couple of years of regualr use with minimal maintenance and some common sense. Store it out of the sun when not in use. Keep it clean when not in use. Don't lean on the tip or hack at trees and undergrowth with it. Don't bash it repeatedly over the rims of unpadded wooden shields. Don't store it in a cellar or pool of oily water in the boot of a car... (can you tell I'm talking about things people do here? ;))

At Kin Cheap we used to offer a repair service free of charge for weapons we had made. We had a tiny, tiny percentage of weapons return for free repair. There's of course a wide variety of quality and durability out there!

Hey, whilst I'm at it, here's some stuff I personally made. Nothing too schlocky I hope. ;):
http://hometown.aol.co.uk/Jonnyhodgsonart/knife.jpg
http://hometown.aol.co.uk/Jonnyhodgsonart/screamingshield.jpg
http://hometown.aol.co.uk/Jonnyhodgsonart/weapons.jpg

[Jackob]

At least here in Denmark, there is a huge market for the good-looking weapons. Parents buy them for their children. My brother-in-law works in a gaming store here in Copenhagen and the stories he can tell about the money spent both just before the big summer LARPS and at Christmas, both on weapons, costuming and other props... damn...

[Illithidbix]

Well I’m a regular “boffer” (odd word) in the UK, and play in both a local university club system which has combat intense missions every Sunday (and a tavern night every Wednesday), as well as playing a few times a year in weekend long fest events.

I’m very used to using nice looking, manufactured LARP weapons, and only ever seen an American Boffer weapon used once. When this guy (an American student) brought it along to the system at the start, one of the things he did during our “introduction to LARP fighting” was to smack one of the Reffs about the legs with it very hard. Apparently the fact it was a big, obviously padded boffer didn’t stop it from hurting like hell.
Whilst this single case isn’t necessarily a good indication of the behaviour of an entire continent of LARPers, it nevertheless does make me wonder about comments about how good an idea it is to have “obviously safe” boffer weapons, if they do encourage lower standards of safety.


Since starting LARP I’ve had the following drummed into me by my local club.

1) NEVER STAB. Never. Even with a supposedly stab safe weapon.
2) Pull your blows. Never strike with full force
3) Head hits are allowed, but be esp. careful, and they are to be avoided *unless* they are the only viable targeting *
4) Always look at what your striking, strike beyond your field of vision.
5) Fight at a reduced speed, never at full tilt (sometimes called 2/3rds speed)
6) The following things are most important in LARP:
Being Safe, Looking Cool, Winning. In that order.


Latex is surprisingly heavy, believe it or not. With kite spar and well-cut insulation (along with kite or sail repair tape) you'd be amazed at how light these weapons can be.

I find very light weapons (large ones at least) can actually be sometimes more problematic when pulling blows since the user can forget they still have leverage. This means that often the user can’t feel when they’re not pulling blows.

[QUOTE=Theodore Sign]As far as "tent mat" weapons go, they tend to look a little more like latex weapons, with blade geometry and all, but they often have the same problem with having too hard a striking surface. It makes sense, after all; swords were designed to be sharp, and if you make a weapon with a similar geometry, it will function a bit more like what it is supposed to represent. Still, a nice compromise between the two designs, and tent mat blades are generally as thrust safe as a comperable pipe foam weapon.

I'd never trust any weapon to be thrust safe, ever. It's simply a case that if it was ever used against someone charging at someone else with any amount of momentum (not a good idea in LARP but it invariably happens), then I just wouldn't trust any homemade weapon to stand up to it. Hence I would prefer there just to be a very rigid “No stabbing” rule.
Also, stabbing combat seems to be god-damn boring and uncinematic most of the time.


Here is a question that might lead to another conclusion about weapon wear and tear. How often (per year) do European LARPs usually meet?


Well, there is big difference between local run club systems, normally attached to universities and the like, which often run once/twice a week and fest events, which normally run for 3-4 days, 3-6 times a year.

It should be noted that in Europe, there is a damn noticeable difference in quality between the good "professional" weapons makers, and the inferior ones. In particular the lifespan is dependent on it’s quality. There is one company in the UK called Medlock which make some truly amazing weapons, one of which I used for over a year both at the regular local events and a few fests, and the only damage was a slight damaging of the latex. A cheaper, average quality weapon however showed similar levels of wear after a few months.

I’ve got the impression that American LARP weapons manufactures have a poor reputation in the UK, most probably because they simply don’t have the market, and so the experience that the equivalent

Also, as a personal policy, I never buy weapons over the internet, I away buy them from fest events (where there are usually a fair few stalls with people selling them), and always pick up a weapon, and practice swings before buying it. I’ve noticed you can really judge a weapon the instant you pick it up and feel it’s balance.

[StumpyDave]

As for the safety issue of latex weapons, I wasn't aware there was a problem. Anyways, I usually play with steel weapons so that isn't really important either About the thrusting thing, 8 or 9 years ago (gee, that makes me feel so young) I played a larp and by sheer fluke I ended up running full tilt and leaping onto the end of a latex sword. Sure, I was winded and doubled-up on the ground, but it was a **** load funnier than it was painful.

LT didn't start weapons checking people until after a group turned up with steel reenactment weapons wrapped in Gaffa tape, so systems have to presume every single person at the game is a psychotic moron when writing safety aspects.



Hmmm. Remind me to personally check any "Larp" weapon I find in the hands of Mr xReubenx. I'm not trying to insinuate anything but....

[Ambrogino]

Ah, but for a lot of LARPers (the US ones I know, anyway), making your own stuff is a great deal of the fun; this is a craft hobby, 'round these parts.

That's what I'm saying - crafting a latex weapon is not that much more expensive than crafting a boffer one. Takes longer, requires more skill (arguably), looks better. I'd have said these were things in favour of a crafting based system, not against it.

And Jon H - a friend of mine's had a Kin Cheap sword and shield for about 7 years now and they're still in great nick. Good job! :)

[Samhaine]

Latex weapons are becoming increasingly available in the US via various web retailers. Most of them seem to be the same designs, so I imagine there's a big producer somewhere stocking the merchants.

Even if the tips are soft enough to not hurt on a chest thrust, the real danger is considered to be eye-shots. One of the usual standards I see for boffer tips is that they be bigger than an eye-socket. Even if it's soft, anything with a point can still cause accidents, which is why no thrusting rules are common for latex weapons.

Ultralight boffers made from kitespar or golf club shafts are often less expensive than latex weapons here, and are much easier to maintain and fix on-site or just by anyone without a workshop.

Many people here swing very hard; they seem to unconsciously believe that hitting harder makes their swings more effective. Plus, in the heat of combat people worry that hits won't be taken by the target unless they're easy to feel. I've gotten smacked in the hand hard enough to screw up my manual dexterity for a week with an ultralight boffer; I shudder to think what it would have felt like with an edge focusing all the force onto a specific part of my fingers.

A lot of our props and costuming are still rudimentary. Making your sword look more like a sword is sometimes overkill when you're playing in an obviously modern cabin. It's mostly the people that have already spent a lot on realistic armor and costuming that also buy the latex weapons. This proportion might shift if the latex prices fall to less than $80 for a good sword.

[Illithidbix]

Even if the tips are soft enough to not hurt on a chest thrust, the real danger is considered to be eye-shots. One of the usual standards I see for boffer tips is that they be bigger than an eye-socket. Even if it's soft, anything with a point can still cause accidents, which is why no thrusting rules are common for latex weapons.

The explanation I've been given is that there is a very small chance that a hard thrust might result in the latex tip giving way and the carbon/glass fibre core then impaling someone. Or the reverse effect happening if someone’s charges into a thrust.
A very rare occurrence, but one that's a happened a few times resulting in serious injury.

[Theodore Sign]

I'd never trust any weapon to be thrust safe, ever. It's simply a case that if it was ever used against someone charging at someone else with any amount of momentum (not a good idea in LARP but it invariably happens), then I just wouldn't trust any homemade weapon to stand up to it. Hence I would prefer there just to be a very rigid “No stabbing” rule.
Also, stabbing combat seems to be god-damn boring and uncinematic most of the time.

I was going to comment on stuff like this before (maybe I'll make a new thread), but the "uncinematic" thing I find to just be bizarre. In the LARP that I have been a part of for about 5 years, we are allowed to thrust all we want, and it is anything but "uncinematic." (How the heck do you use a spear, much less a bow, if you can't thrust)? Though, frankly, "cinematic" isn't something we're consciously going for, most of the time. Still, people don't thrust all that often, anyway; it's usually an opportunistic type of attack that you use when a "florentine" or single weapon fighter leaves themselves open a bit. Also, in narrow passages or doorways.

. When this guy (an American student) brought it along to the system at the start, one of the things he did during our “introduction to LARP fighting” was to smack one of the Reffs about the legs with it very hard. Apparently the fact it was a big, obviously padded boffer didn’t stop it from hurting like hell.
Whilst this single case isn’t necessarily a good indication of the behaviour of an entire continent of LARPers, it nevertheless does make me wonder about comments about how good an idea it is to have “obviously safe” boffer weapons, if they do encourage lower standards of safety.
Come on, you know that the plural of anecdote isn't data. The only evidence you have here is that this one dude was a moron. No one that I've seen uses boffers with more force (than latex weapons) because of the way they look.

[Spinachcat]

Sadly, I haven't had the good fortune to do a combat larp for many years. However, back in college, I got to fight with crafted latex, plastic toys, built boffers and most stupidly, live steel. We were very Fight Club back then.

I do not know if this is the case in Europe, but it has been my experience that the testosterone gets going in a combat larp and pulling blows is often forgotten in the heat of battle. AKA, lots of real full force hits, mostly by accident. If I am pointing fingers, let me step up and fully admit mea culpa.

I am not dextrous :( ...so I can accurately discuss what it is like getting hit with each of these materials. Plastic toy swords and axes are cheap and many look great and fine for touch larps. They have points and the pokey part is a no-no for the face. Yes, I know you are not supposed to hit people in the face, but when people are bobbing and weaving stuff happens. Otherwise, they are light, expendable and land pretty meaningless hits. Kinda like getting whapped with a plastic wiffle bat.

Latex crafted weapons are very expensive in the US and the ones I have seen are even pointer than many toys. I was always afraid of breaking them when I swung with any force. As for touch larps, I still question their strength vs. forceful parries. I know many boffers look ugly, but they are cheap and expendable and land a good, but padded blow. Also, most boffers I have seen have no point so getting slammed in the eye means that I get hurt, but avoid hospital bills.

As for live steel, I am a big fan when in armor. It hurts like a mofo and I broke my ribs, a finger and nearly my wrist, but it does teach you to focus and parry.

Due to the legal, medical, insurance and publicity issues, boffers are really your only choice in the US if your larp involves touching.

[Lord Minx]

Hey, whilst I'm at it, here's some stuff I personally made. Nothing too schlocky I hope. ;)Wow, I've seena few really beautifull weapons in my time, but damn, those things look good. (Those shields!!! *drool*)

Is there any chance to, you know, order something like that from you? :D

M

[Carmen]

How do latex weapons hold up in temperatures of 100+ degrees Fahrenheit (37.778 degrees Celsius)?

[JJthorne]

I am in the US. We run a combat larp (similar to Amptguard) but even more sport oriented. We allow head shots and thrust and do not have eye protection.

We have gone 20 years with no serious injuries.

So it is part safety, but there is another reason we have rejected the latex weapons.

The boffer weapons are more uniform and everyone can afford the same level of weapon. This levels the playing field and keeps the fight fair.

I am not saying there are no variation in boffer design, or the skill in making them, however it is a simple matter to give everyone access to the same materials and the same weapons.

If we were running one of those dickey number calling gift from the system let the lame guy win cause he has been playing longer and spent more money, can't fight worth a damn systems, I am sure the latex weapons would be fine.

[Gimby]

Well, similarly DUTT in the UK has been running for 20+ years without a single weapons related serious injury (and very few non-serious ones). While thrusting isn't allowed (generally, there have been execptions) head shots certainly are.

As for level playing feilds, while it does seem that latex is cheaper this side of the pond, such that anyone who wants a latex weapon generally can afford one (and it is a student society)- the "serious" fighters tend to practice with some very well made gaffa weapons. Ability will really trump weapon material any day.

I have seen just as much variation in weapon balancing and weight between gaffa and latex weapons (and given gaffa is easier to make at home, weapons better customised to the weilder in gaffa). I dunno though, maybe you have more consistent weapons crafters than over here.

[JJthorne]

Its not so much that people are consistent weapon smiths, its that everyone is pretty much a weapon smith. I think with the latex weapons fewer people would make them. I suppose if we really wanted to make sure that it was an even playing field we could choose one brand of latex weapon and make everyone buy the same ones.

Still, all and all, I like everyone starting with the same materials, making their own weapons and bringing them to the field.

It seems more sporting.

[Jon H]

Wow, I've seena few really beautifull weapons in my time, but damn, those things look good. (Those shields!!! *drool*)

Is there any chance to, you know, order something like that from you? :D

M

Thanks!

Heh Heh - 'fraid not :( - if I never smell Evo Stick, latex and isoflex ever again it will be too soon. :) James Morris of Kin Cheap fame (my old boss) does still make the occassional batch of stuff. If you can track him down he may make you a special order. He will have some stuff on sale at The Gathering.

James at Kin Cheap developed the safe thrusting spear, and throwing javelin, and they've been happily in use at a lot of events for 10 years or so. I totally understand why the LT and other huge events don't allow their use - one goober sees someone thrusting with a safe thrusting weapon and thinks its ok to thrust with their non-thrust-safe sword. Or you get the fools who apply the "If you can't put 'em down safely, well put 'em down anyway you can" and just don't play safe or fair. And a thrusting spear used irresponsibly, or deliberately unsafely isn't a nice prospect. Its just an extra safety hassle the refs don't need.


On smaller events like Dumnonni Chrionicles its all good though. What is appropriate varies by group - for example Dumnonni don't allow head hits - which to my mind is the right thing to do. Other people find that terribly unrealistic. Hey Ho.


And Jon H - a friend of mine's had a Kin Cheap sword and shield for about 7 years now and they're still in great nick. Good job!

Sweet. That's about the time I was working there. He's clearly taking good care of it. We built 'em to last. Though you should whack it hard on a metal post for him and give a latex weapons maker some work. ;)

[Ralph Horsley]

Hi,

This is clearly a complex area and it is interesting to read the different approaches and attitudes that people have, though I am glad that safety seems to feature top of everyone's lists, even if interepretation on what is required to achieve that may be different.

I personally am in the Latex weapons camp. I think a large part of LARP for me is aesthetics and in that respect Latex must win hands down. In the same way that I would rather spend a weekend in a steel chainmail hauberk than some 'stringmail'.

However I do wonder whether the cultural different is less in the style of weaponry and more in the style of play. The Impression I have gathered from this thread is that in the US the game is seen in a more 'sporting' manner. With equality of weaponry and ability to perform certain maneuvers seeming more central to the style of fighting. Whilst in the UK (and Europe?) the approach is slightly more theatrical/roleplayed.

I can only speak from personal experience, but the groups I have played with seem very keen to acknowledge that the weaponry is not real, infact is incredibly unrealistic in terms of weight and handling. This has resulted in a desire to exaggerate the movements, I believe 2/3 time was referred to earlier, and a dislike of fast short swing attacks. Some rules even specify a minimum length of a blows swing for it to count as a valid hit.

Of course the beauty and appeal of all forms of roleplaying is the huge variety of approaches that it can encompass.

Hey, and great to see your builds Jon. I love the scaramax. Very nice lines.

Cheers,

Ralph
=====

[JJthorne]

I can only speak from personal experience, but the groups I have played with seem very keen to acknowledge that the weaponry is not real, infact is incredibly unrealistic in terms of weight and handling.

This is true, and it is also true for most fencing swords. What is real is the skill you develop for the game. Having a really good, sport oriented combat system where you develop real fighting skills adds to the roleplaying experience. It adds all the best things that larp adds to rpg.

Its true that whatever combat you have will be a poor model of real swordplay. That does not mean you should not try, or you should not create a system where basic fencing and martial arts techniques give you a real advantage.

If your fighting system breaks down to a number shouting, slap fight/math quiz, you might as well stay in you basement and role dice.

[Ralph Horsley]

This is true, and it is also true for most fencing swords. What is real is the skill you develop for the game. Having a really good, sport oriented combat system where you develop real fighting skills adds to the roleplaying experience. It adds all the best things that larp adds to rpg.

Its true that whatever combat you have will be a poor model of real swordplay. That does not mean you should not try, or you should not create a system where basic fencing and martial arts techniques give you a real advantage.

If your fighting system breaks down to a number shouting, slap fight/math quiz, you might as well stay in you basement and role dice.

Whilst I have been tabletop roleplaying for nearly three decades I have only started Larping within the last three ( blame my wife :) ). One reason I had previously been reluctant was because I felt that one advantage of tabletop gaming was that you could play a character unlike that which I am in real life. In a tabletop game you CAN play the best swordfighter in the world and the system will reflect that. Clearly LARP has more diffilculty in conveying this. Whilst it is true that I don't want to simply number shout or roll dice when LARPing nor do I feel that the roleplay aspect should be overwhelmed by the physical aspect of someones OOC abilities. That to me negates rather than enhances the roleplay.

Of course the level to which real life skills as opposed to game skills should be balanced is a completely different topic to the one this thread is devoted to, however the point you make does reinforce the original distinction I was making between a 'sport orientated combat system' and what we might call a 'roleplay orientated combat system'. Which in turn might require different weaponry.

Cheers,

Ralph
====

[JJthorne]

Maybe I should have said immersion instead of roleplay.

[helbling]

LT didn't start weapons checking people until after a group turned up with steel reenactment weapons wrapped in Gaffa tape, so systems have to presume every single person at the game is a psychotic moron when writing safety aspects.

I've heard about those guys - they got laughed off the field.

A lot of the fun I get out of LARP is the costume - I like to have everything right for what the character would have - right down to the weapon. [Of course, since I'm broke, it means that my characters in both my home system and the LT are dagger chicks] This means while I don't really have a safety preference between boffers and swords, a sword helps me feel more IC, and I vastly prefer it if the people around me are wielding something recognisable.

Not to mention, in my home system what damage you call is largely dependant on weapon, and a weapon has to be recognisable as whatever it's supposed to phys rep, so if you turned up with a boffer you'd be forever stuck with a mace.

...'Sides, no matter what they were weilding, I'd expect people to pull their blows - we have so many blokes who are hard core martial artists, I dread to think what would happen if they didn't.

[xReubenx]

wow, do people actually get hurt using foam weapons then? What's the worst injury people have seen/heard of?

As I said previously, I come from a reenactment background so I find it somewhat surprising. One of the things that appealed to me about larp combat was not having to pull blows so much ad being able to fight at a faster pace. Can you not do this then?

[StumpyDave]

One of the things that appealed to me about larp combat was not having to pull blows so much ad being able to fight at a faster pace. Can you not do this then?

You are not going to popular come FnH :)

[xReubenx]

I don't intend to go all out or anything. I just thought that since it's only latex/foam/whatever, injuries would be somewhat harder to come by. Can you actually do serious (or even vaguely comical) damage with these things or is it just the occasional bumps and bruises?

[StumpyDave]

I think its the occassional bump and bruise, but given that

a) the majority of roleplayers are weeds
b) they've chosen rubber over steel to accomodate their low resistance to pain
c) they're pretending to be Zanglor the Mighty for fun, not to indulge in any kind of sado-masochistic deviancy

So pulling your blows is considered a courtesy thing - so as not to spoil their enjoyment. When you don't know who's up for the aforementioned deviancy it's better to hedge your bets and assume that they're all whinging crybabies.

The speed thing again is a courtesy. The weapons are lighter so theoretically you could fight harder, faster and longer, but then hacking away like Inigo Montoya on Speed when your opponent is trying to recreate the ponderous inevitabily of Zanglor's Mighty Zweihander isn't fair on him. So that comes down to immersion and "realism" over winning/losing.

Of course I haven't waved a foam padded stick at anyone for 12 years, and you know I've never done reenactment so I could be talking out of my arse.:)

[Ambrogino]

I've heard about those guys - they got laughed off the field.


Not so much laughed as chased - the police were called to protect them from the gang of about 500 people that were going to beat the shit out of them. In addition to the metal weapons they had invited a young woman back to their tent and were effectively holding her there aginst her will.

[Ambrogino]

a) the majority of roleplayers are weeds
b) they've chosen rubber over steel to accomodate their low resistance to pain
c) they're pretending to be Zanglor the Mighty for fun, not to indulge in any kind of sado-masochistic deviancy



I think this is probably a little unfair. I know plenty of strong, fit LRP'ers who choose LRP over reenactment because they aren't interested in historical accuracy, or want to play a wizrd/non-human/whatever that you simply wouldn't be allowed anywhere else. Fear of being hurt isn't really the issue, or they could play non-combatants at reenactments.

Though I agree with your point on courtesy. xReubenx - many systems now would rather you be cool than effective, so whilst you can wail in full speed a lot of people are going to get bored fighting you. This doesn't mean that real skill has no effect, only blending it with a bit of cinemicism/dramatic flair is preferable.

[StumpyDave]

I think this is probably a little unfair. I know plenty of strong, fit LRP'ers who choose LRP over reenactment because they aren't interested in historical accuracy, or want to play a wizrd/non-human/whatever that you simply wouldn't be allowed anywhere else. Fear of being hurt isn't really the issue, or they could play non-combatants at reenactments.


To be fair to myself the first points were made more in jest than any attempt to accurately categorise Larpers. Really the differences between the two (AFAICS) boils down to reenactment is based in realism and there seems to be (in Wolfguard - XReubenX's reenactment group - at least if not in other groups) an element of sport, wherein the battles aren't scripted with a set winner and loser.

Whilst LArp doesn't have that scripted outcome either, what it does have is an level of immersion that requires purposefully handicapping oneself in terms of speed and fighting style in order to maintain it.

But knowing XReubenX doesn't mind getting hit will make it more fun come July :D

[Jerusalem Steel]

I can certainly understand the appeal of boffer weapons over latex ones when it comes to use them in high temperatures - the idea of drawing an expensive sticky latex sword out of its now-ruined scabbard isn't a pleasant one. In terms of weighting, cost, appearance, and safety I don't think there's much that boffer weapons offer over their latex counterparts. I know a couple of people who've made their own weapons for years, and while they don't stand up against the likes of Kincheap and Medlock, they're certainly better looking than boffer and cheap too.

I can't imagine having the same level of immersion in the middle of mass combat (a la the Gathering's few thousand people in the final melee) if people are wielding huge boffer sticks rather than (99%) realistic weapons. Surely no matter how good the costume is, having boffer weapons is intrusive into the scene.

[Tancred]

wow, do people actually get hurt using foam weapons then? What's the worst injury people have seen/heard of?

I used to play in a few boffer-style LRPs in New Zealand years ago and one guy got his nose broken by a well-made, well-padded staff hit. Technically, head hits weren't allowed but accidents happen and people tended to swing as hard as they could. And the guy that swung in this case was pretty big.

From my limited experience of boffer-style weapon LRPs in NZ, people tried to make the weapons as safe and padded as possible so they didn't have to worry about pulling their blows. Apart from the no head hits rule, it was all on from there.

[Samhaine]

wow, do people actually get hurt using foam weapons then? What's the worst injury people have seen/heard of?
I've heard of infrequent times when the PVC core has snapped at an angle, torn through the foam, and stabbed someone. Or at least I know boffer crafters that think this is a possibility and they attempt to minimize it in their weapons; I don't have any firsthand stories about it.

One guy I know almost put out a girl's eye because he was running full tilt past her with his elbows akimbo. When they called the medical hold, he told everyone he was fine (oblivious to the girl on the ground by him holding her face). That's not really the fault of the boffers, though, but he was using one at the time :) .

[invisible_al]

I've seen latex weapons be perfectly usable in the blazing august heat, most of them are now coated with Isoflex (a roof sealant) over the top of the latex to waterproof them so the heat doesn't affect them as much. I've seen latex weapons go a bit 'off' temporarily when left in the back of a car, but that's blazing sunshine through glass and they soon revert back once they're out of the heat.

I'll be interested to see if there's any problems at a fest that someone I know is holding in California, http://www.meridianlarp.com/.

[Ryan Paddy]

I used to play in a few boffer-style LRPs in New Zealand years ago and one guy got his nose broken by a well-made, well-padded staff hit.

That was me whose nose got broken! And that staff was well-made my fucking arse. It was PVC core with the foam taped down hard laterally. The foam was so compacted that all it did was add weight. Many of those weapons were of a poor safety standard, and that was one of the worse ones.

And the guy that swung in this case was pretty big.

Short and very fat, you mean? I'm amazed he could reach that high.... oh no, that's right, he was holding a staff by its very end with both hands and swinging it around his head like a fucking hammer-thrower. Of course he could reach my head!

Me bitter? But the safety standards at those games were next to non-existant.

From my limited experience of boffer-style weapon LRPs in NZ, people tried to make the weapons as safe and padded as possible so they didn't have to worry about pulling their blows. Apart from the no head hits rule, it was all on from there.

Er.... you must have been playing a different larp to the one I signed up for. We were informed that the weapons were very safe and we were given strict instructions on using them safely... by the same fat bastard who broke my nose.

These days a lot of kiwis are using latex weapons. I've imported some and sell them at www.paddywhack.co.nz. The home-made weapons we use are much softer (the group I was with always had much softer weapons than that staff), we look down on people who fail to pull their blows.

If you're going to use tape as the surface on weapons, don't tape them down hard at righ-angles to the blade. Tape lengthwise, and don't compact the foam. Most of our older home-made weapons (that aren't latex) don't use tape at all, we cover the blades in a stretchy shiny silver fabric.

[Tancred]

That was me whose nose got broken! And that staff was well-made my fucking arse. It was PVC core with the foam taped down hard laterally. The foam was so compacted that all it did was add weight. Many of those weapons were of a poor safety standard, and that was one of the worse ones.

Fair enough - the point is that it was typical of the LRP weapons I've seen used. Certainly not the most dangerous LRP weapon in use that day.

Short and very fat, you mean? I'm amazed he could reach that high.... oh no, that's right, he was holding a staff by its very end with both hands and swinging it around his head like a fucking hammer-thrower. Of course he could reach my head!

Me bitter? But the safety standards at those games were next to non-existant.

He's about 5' 9".

Er.... you must have been playing a different larp to the one I signed up for. We were informed that the weapons were very safe and we were given strict instructions on using them safely... by the same fat bastard who broke my nose.

Sorry about your nose. However, that 'fat bastard' is a good friend of mine and he was very sorry about the incident after - still cringes to this day. Of course, not anywhere near as bad as getting a broken nose.

It was an unfortunate accident and as far as I remember there were no injuries that day until after the LRP when some people got into one-on-one duels for the hell of it - stupid duels IMO. It was during one of these you got your nose broken.

In fact, my memories of those LRPs were that they were pretty much cowboy affairs with little concern for safety. 'Strict instructions'? Don't hit people in the head was the extent of it as far as I remember it. Certainly no instruction to pull blows or use anything less than full force. Everyone used those staffs swung from the end, just like a sword.

Things may have changed a lot these days in the LRPs your part of, but back then the chance of injury was always there - you've got to be kidding yourself to think there wasn't one. I found them really enjoyable, but it was just a matter of time til an injury like yours occurred.

[xReubenx]

I don't suppose it's possible that more than one person got their nose broken and you're inadvertantly talking about separate incidences? Just wondered because of the disparity between the versions of events.

One other thing, a staff is supposed to be used like that.

[Jerusalem Steel]

There's no way in the world that you can be 'safe' when holding a staff (or polearm, or whatever) right at the bottom and swinging away. So while staffs might be used like that IRL, I'd hope that anyone using one in such a fashion at an LT event would get a swift verbal smacking and some instruction on how to fight safely.

[Radendaren]

Not to mention that it's a great way to irrevocably damage your staff.

I know a couple of people who took the unsafe latex weapons from our LARP society's storage (the tips had bent too far from misuse, thus exposing the cores) and got drunk and sparred with them. They ripped off the cores entirely and one of them got his face slashed by the end of one. He still has the scar.
(That's more an issue of silly people than weapon safety, really. But it goes to show that cores are the dangerous bits)

We tend to use latex weapons overall, but then we're a university society and none of us have the resources to make our own even if we wanted to. We do however have one member who organizes our Jugger games, and he provides us with gaffa-tape staves and two ball-and-chain weapons. The staves are clearly marked in the middle - if you don't keep your hands on either side of the mark then it's unsafe.
The ball-and-chain looks really dangerous but in reality it's no worse than getting hit by a football at medium speed. Actually, the ball at the end is a foam football.

Issues of safe weaponry aside, it's just good practice to pull your blows, or at least not swing like a maniac. Not everyone has the same tolerance, and 'it won't do serious harm' is not a reason. As demonstrated previously, it just takes one full-force blow to miss and hit someone in the face...which is a lot more likely if safe weapon practice isn't enforced.

[Tancred]

I don't suppose it's possible that more than one person got their nose broken and you're inadvertantly talking about separate incidences? Just wondered because of the disparity between the versions of events.

One other thing, a staff is supposed to be used like that.

Could have been I guess - this took place about 13-14 years ago, so maybe I'm showing my age. :)

There's no way in the world that you can be 'safe' when holding a staff (or polearm, or whatever) right at the bottom and swinging away. So while staffs might be used like that IRL, I'd hope that anyone using one in such a fashion at an LT event would get a swift verbal smacking and some instruction on how to fight safely.

Yeah, those games were largely free for alls and not very safe. That said, it was a shame because the day was incident-free otherwise. Unfortunately after the game a few people tried one-on-one duels and some of these got pretty heated and tempers flared. In this case the damage was done before anyone thought or had a chance to intervene.

[Ryan Paddy]

Sorry about your nose. However, that 'fat bastard' is a good friend of mine and he was very sorry about the incident after - still cringes to this day. Of course, not anywhere near as bad as getting a broken nose.

No, I'm sorry. It was a long time ago, and I met him once again since then at uni and he did apologise. I shouldn't have vented or been insulting about him, I'm sure he's probably a decent guy. Sorry about the offense.

I was just grumping because it was an avoidable accident, and I think he knew better. He briefed my group before the main game, and instructed us to control our blows. His safety instructions may not have been to the standard we have today, but it wasn't a free-for-all at least from our perspective.

The injury did happen in a combat after the main event. There were some duels in a circle-of-death style, and then a 2-sided skirmish when I think it happened. He was a bit over-excited and used a poor weapon poorly, but accidents do happen. It was my idea to have some combats... the game itself had been a bit lacking for my tastes at the time. My mates used to get together and play combat games all the time, seemed like a natural progression to me. But I think things got too competitive in this case because there were several groups at the event.

Buried deep in my vent were two points: the weapons were not safe (even by the lax standards of the time), and his "combat style" was also unsafe (even by the lax standards of the time). In that instance, it was unsafe weapon + unsafe usage = injury. I wanted to make the circumstances clear. The weapons were in the UK "gaffer" style I think (so probably fibreglass cores not PVC as I said before, I didn't get to see inside so can't be sure), but the foam was bound down much too tightly with tape.

Swinging a larp staff or any sort of polearm in large arcs by its end is unsafe. It's very difficult to control the height of the attack, for one thing, and there's way too much momentum. Which doesn't matter so much if you're really trying to injure someone with a real staff, but larp fighting and real fighting don't have the same goals.

Things may have changed a lot these days in the LRPs your part of, but back then the chance of injury was always there - you've got to be kidding yourself to think there wasn't one. I found them really enjoyable, but it was just a matter of time til an injury like yours occurred.

These days many players get peeved if they receive blows that hurt at all. The culture has changed, at least in my neck of the woods. Injuries happen, but they're typically of the running-into-a-tree or falling-down-on-a-rock variety.

Again, sorry about the insults. I just had this sudden realisation that I'd been offensive and needed to come back and make amends. Net rage, that's my defense.

Ryan

Boy, a lot of blood came out of my nose. Buckets of the stuff. What was all that blood doing up there, I'd like to know?

[Snoopy]

There's no way in the world that you can be 'safe' when holding a staff (or polearm, or whatever) right at the bottom and swinging away. So while staffs might be used like that IRL, I'd hope that anyone using one in such a fashion at an LT event would get a swift verbal smacking and some instruction on how to fight safely.
It has happened. I gave someone a shouting-at when they were using a staff with both hands at one end, and smacked a (female) friend of mine around the head so hard she fell over. His defence? It was his first time wielding a staff...

This was all during Jugger (my favourite game ever!) and luckily Barney (a friend of mine) was the ref, so he didn't mind my short tirade!

[Tancred]

No, I'm sorry. It was a long time ago, and I met him once again since then at uni and he did apologise. I shouldn't have vented or been insulting about him, I'm sure he's probably a decent guy. Sorry about the offense.

No worries. :)

Hope the nose healed up no problem.

[xReubenx]

There's no way in the world that you can be 'safe' when holding a staff (or polearm, or whatever) right at the bottom and swinging away. So while staffs might be used like that IRL, I'd hope that anyone using one in such a fashion at an LT event would get a swift verbal smacking and some instruction on how to fight safely.

Really? That's.....wierd. The style is practically identical to sword. How is it any less safe? How does it damage a staff any more than it would a sword?

[StumpyDave]

I can't see how fighting with a staff/sword/axe/mace/trolls knob is going to differ in LArp. Let's face it, what we're talking about is a core wrapped in foam. The only real difference is in the final, cosmetic, shape. Whilst there may be slight differences in handling between say, axes and swords, these would be largely negligible between staff and sword.

The problems that seem to arise, given the evidence of these posts, are not then from the different weapons but from the inability of the user to control his blows.

[Ryan Paddy]

I can't see how fighting with a staff/sword/axe/mace/trolls knob is going to differ in LArp.

In a real fight, you're trying to injure someone. In a larp fight, you're only trying to touch them and make it look like you injured them.

Staves are usually much longer than swords. The longer a weapon is, the more difficult it is to control exactly where the striking end is, especially when you're swinging it. Also, the longer a weapon is the more momentum the end will have when you swing it in an arc. You can swing a 3' sword and a 6' staff in an arc at exactly the same speed (from the point of view of the bit where you're holding it), but the end of the staff will be moving much faster.

Also, while some boffer staves and swords may be made exactly the same way, that's not always the case with other approaches to weapon making, especially latex weapons. Staves are sometimes made with less foam on the striking surface than a sword, because real blades are wider than staves and the maker is trying to get the look right.

In a more general sense, there are lots of differences between fighting with real, sharp weapons and larp weapons. It's not safe to fight with a larp weapon the way you would with a real weapons. Bear in mind that with real weapons, you're actually trying to hurt the other person. For example, a standard move with many real weapons would be to chop down toward's someone's head from above. However, this isn't a safe thing to do with a larp weapon. Even if you're aiming for their shoulder and have good control, there's a good chance you'll hit the top of the head instead, and that sort of impact isn't good for head, neck, or spine. Another example is that many larp weapons aren't safe for thrusting with, so your whole combat style has to change if you're used to thrusting - as many fencers are, for example.

[Jerusalem Steel]

Yup, it's to do with the speed and the level of control you have over the striking part of the weapon. It's an awful lot harder for someone to pull back the end of a staff than it is the end of a shorter sword, especially if they're holding it right at one end rather than towards the middle. Same with polearms, etc - most larp polearms I've seen have clear hand placings spaced out across their length, presumably to encourage safe use.

[xReubenx]

See, that's where it gets weird from a reenactment point of view. It seems strange that there'd be a problem pulling blows from a foam staff when there's no trouble what-so-ever when fighting with 4, 5 or even 6 foot steel swords. I always figured larpers fought that way because they thought it looked cool or something.

I find the problem of controlling a staff used that way to be bizarre. I've always found you have greater control when using both hands.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to have a go at larpers or anything, I'm just trying to get a better idea before I join in.


P.S. Just to be pedantic, it's torque, not momentum:D

[invisible_al]

Steel weapons don't 'whip' like latex staff weapons, they have give in them due to the core but if you're holding them at one end and moving them back and forth there's a certain 'whippyness' you have to be careful of. As long as you've got your hands spaced along the shaft and you pull your blows you're ok. I normally fight with a hand at the end and a hand about a third of the way down, that way you can flip between that hold and holding it in the middle with the hands spaced out easily just by moving one hand about. It's quite nifty once you get the hang of it :).

[Ryan Paddy]

I find the problem of controlling a staff used that way to be bizarre. I've always found you have greater control when using both hands.

Many larpers are untrained. I don't find it strange at all that an untrained person in the excitement of a mass melee would find it harder to control the end of a much longer weapon. I agree that having two hands on it would help, but not enough to make it safe to swing a 6' weapon by it's end. And yes, 2H swords that are that long tend to be less well controlled too from what I've seen.

Steel weapon fighters who've tried foam weapons too tell me that the extra weight of steel weapons can make them around 3x slower than foam weapons. I think that slower approach would give you more time to decide & control the location of your strike. This is probably less true of US-style "boffer" weapons than of light latex weapons. Many boffer weapons are quite heavy, I gather.

P.S. Just to be pedantic, it's torque, not momentum:D

I was always shit at rotational physics. But torque doesn't account for mass, does it? Mass is pretty important when it comes to what happens when you whack someone, all other things being equal. So isn't it angular momentum that I meant?

[Lig]

I find the problem of controlling a staff used that way to be bizarre. I've always found you have greater control when using both hands.

I've never done reenactment, but I have held a few weapons, and my family owns several real ones. I've held and used a lot of larp weapons. I reckon that using the two types are very different.

When I'm at work, I'm going to be more precise with a steel tool handle than a slightly flexible rubber one. In addition to the torque/momentum that Ryan mentioned, a lot of larp weapons are "whippy", particularly if they're longer than 5", so if both hands are at one end, great swords and staves and so on gain extra force - if you're making short jabs or swings, then this isn't a big problem, but someone swinging it around their head is going to build up a lot of extra force.

Besides, if you want to look cool using a stave - I used to know a lass that could place both hands in the middle of a stave and use it as spinning barrier for her entire body. And do it safely. Now that is cool.

[xReubenx]

Well the training regime for reenactment is different for every group. Some are pretty full on and others make the word 'lax' seem strict. But basically, training involves making sure you can fight safely and not much more. The rest comes from experience.

I understand that larp weapons are considerably lighter than the steel counterparts and so can be moved a lot quicker, but should that not also make them easier to control? Unless of course they whip around a lot more than I remember.


I was always shit at rotational physics. But torque doesn't account for mass, does it? Mass is pretty important when it comes to what happens when you whack someone, all other things being equal. So isn't it angular momentum that I meant?

Both torque and angula momentum use moment of inertia, which is like mass but also includes aspects such as the shape of the object in question and how the mass is spread out within that shape.

But angular momentum is more a measurement of the extent and direction of rotation, whereas torque is a measure of the applied rotational force. Anyway, enough of such nonsense. I've already had this discussion in another forum, please don't make me do it again:(

Besides, if you want to look cool using a stave - I used to know a lass that could place both hands in the middle of a stave and use it as spinning barrier for her entire body. And do it safely. Now that is cool.
Um, we had some guy try that at a practice once, it was kinda funny. He looked good right up until the fighting started. Then he lost. A lot.

[Simon Marks]

wow, do people actually get hurt using foam weapons then? What's the worst injury people have seen/heard of?

Crushed esophagus, during a Gathering Battle. Got hit, no - stabbed, in the throat while charging.

Several concussions, broken fingers, and some other minor stuff. But the esophagus thing nearly killed someone.

It's because of the safety rules we have almost no serious accidents - but you can still badly hurt someone even with a Foam weapon.

Here is the actual issue. LARP doesn't have an agreed 'you must be trained' convention, re-enactment does. LARPers get terribly offended if you say "Before you can fight you must go through a training session" - re-enactors would get worried if you didn't.

[Snoopy]

Stabbing with LARP weapons is a no-no...

[StumpyDave]

Yet clearly happens on occasion.

[Snoopy]

Indeed. Largely because people haven't been told not to...

[Radendaren]

It sometimes happens by accident, though. If you have your sword out and someone charges you suddenly, you don't always have time to react.

Charging is actually one of the easiest ways to get hurt in a LARP. Weapon accidents aside, you can trip or knock someone over if you're not careful.

[Ryan Paddy]

Stabbing with LARP weapons is a no-no...

It's a no-no with latex weapons that aren't built for it, or in events that don't allow it.

The US boffer weapons are largely built to be stab-safe so what you're saying doesn't apply there.

It's also possible to build stab-safe latex weapons, but doesn't happen much in the UK because the big events have blanket bans on stabbing, regardless of the weapon builds.

[Martin Gill]

t's also possible to build stab-safe latex weapons,

We've beenmaking and using stab-safe spears for about 10 years and I've never witnessed an accident with one. But granted, big events like the Gathering don't like them. In my opinion, it's not because they are unsave (after all, they allow arrows with much the same level of padding) but more because it encourages people without stab-safe spears to stab regardless. Which can be painful.

We made a stabby Gladius a few years ago, and that was dangerous because you had to get in very close to use it, increasing the chances of elbows and such making contact.

I do want to make a stabby rapier at some point...

But all that said, I tend to run and attend small, invite only events where everyone is already friendly and trusts each other. I appreicate more open or larger systems would have stricter safety rules.

[xReubenx]

I have to admit, it seems strange that the safety concerns appear to have nothing to do with the ability of the individual.

[Ryan Paddy]

Safety rules at large events are largely statistical. As in "what rules will minimise the number of injuries." It's not possible to account for individual skill from that perspective.

A lot of players get there ideas of what is safe from the large event rules.

[Samhaine]

A lot of players get there ideas of what is safe from the large event rules.
Yep, and if uncoordinated Bob sees master fencer Bill doing something awesome, he's going to assume it's allowed for him to do it too. When it's potentially dangerous for Bob to do something, it's a lot easier to tell Bill not to do it either rather than explain to everyone that Bill has special privaleges and then keep track of them.

[xReubenx]

You don't think that maybe master fencer bill could show uncoordinated bob how to fight safely?

Or even simply not let bob use weapons with which they are safety concerns?

[Samhaine]

You don't think that maybe master fencer bill could show uncoordinated bob how to fight safely?

Or even simply not let bob use weapons with which they are safety concerns?
The issue is not that Bob might look at Bill fight and go, "Hey Bill, I notice you using {dangerous move X} and it looked cool and effective. Could you help me pass the safety test so I can also use that move?" The issue is that Bob might look at Bill fight and go, "Awesome, {dangerous move X} is allowed! I'm trying it next fight!"

When your game is big enough, the staff can't effectively police every player in every combat, or even in most combats, and they can't assume that new players or inattentive players will have a good bead on what's allowed within their skill range. It's easier to have everyone on staff and the helpful players know to police anyone doing something potentially dangerous instead of trying to keep track of who's allowed to use which dangerous move.

Just because you said that {dangerous move X} requires a safety test, it doesn't mean that uncoordinated Bob will know or care. If your game is big enough, there might not be enough people that know that Bob didn't pass the safety test to notice he's using it and call him on it before he hurts someone.

[xReubenx]

It works ok in reenactment when you have 2000+ combatants. Which dangerous moves do you have mind? If you want to ban headshots then fair enough and I can certainly understand why you'd want to ban stabbing, but if you're banning stabbing with spears then you might as well just ban spears.

[StumpyDave]

I've not done reenactment and my actual experience of Larp is limited, but does this sitiuation not arise from the "toy" nature of larp weapons and the fantasy background.

(I warn you now, this gets rambly)

What I mean is that reenactment is geared towards a realistic portrayal of weapons and their use; couple this with the more stringent safety aspects one would (I hope) find in reenactment and the fact that if you start to piss about you are just as likely to get hurt as your opponent.

But in Larp, safety isn't as big a concern. Nor is acting realistically - well not as much anyway. Also if you act like a tit in Larp you're not likely to hurt yourself. So a lot of the self policing that you'd find in Reenactment (to avoid smacking oneself in the face) doesn't exist.

Which means policing an event like The Gathering or somesuch is down to the officials. They can't be there to stop every Bill and Bob from using a move/weapon that might be unsafe so the saftey aspect is more draconian in order to stop people from getting hurt.

[Ed Fortune]

Here is a question that might lead to another conclusion about weapon wear and tear. How often (per year) do European LARPs usually meet?

Depends, but there's a thriving 'club' scene in the UK, and that means weekly, pretty much. I've seen one club with a mix between 'gaffer/boffer' weapons and latex, but mostly it's latex.

(we have plenty of forests and castles, y'see, so it's easy to do weekly.)

Ah, but for a lot of LARPers (the US ones I know, anyway), making your own stuff is a great deal of the fun; this is a craft hobby, 'round these parts.


Yeah, same in the UK. It's not that hard to make a latex weapon. My local club (Dark Fables) does a 'how to' class every 6 months or so, so the skills around. THough the 'make it' crowd in the UK tend to costume and leather workers, but there's plenty of people who muck about with Latex.


What do you do at an event if your tip rips off?

Never happened to me. There's typically 'lend out' kit knocking round though.

You are not going to popular come FnH :)

Is that official then? "FnHer's, they don't like it up 'em?" :P

[grandmaster_cain]

I've never made a latex weapon, but I've lost count of the number of boffers I've made over the years. I can get quite a bit of detail out of the old-school boffer technology; if you use pipe insulation as a shaping material, you can tape that alongside your round foam base.

The most expensive boffer I've ever made was a 7-foot shaped claymore, which I sold for $12 US. I've sold basic round boffers for $3, and I can make them for far less. I haven't made one for years, but I think my raw material costs for a PVC boffer came to less that $1 if I bought in bulk.

[pawsplay]

In Amtgard, it is the norm for weapons to be both stab and slash legal. I have never seen a stab related injury worse than a bruise or a bloody nose (head shots are illegal). The worst injuries I have ever seen resulted from:

1) a "baseball" type swing in which a weapon in excess of four feet in length was swung with unnecessary power and proceeded to hit an illegal target or the ribs, or
2) cases where the weapon broke, revealing inappropriate core materials inside the weapon, such as jagged edges, metal, thin padding over stabbing tips, etc

Amtgard is mainly a combat sport game, and is a little rough compared to something like NERO and the like (our weapons would break theirs, no question). We do require new participants to sign waivers. We do not have safety certification, but we do have an informal system of instructing new players in safety, basic rules, and various considerations (such as shot power - which is to say, only enough to make that "boff" sound).

[xReubenx]

Crushed esophagus, during a Gathering Battle. Got hit, no - stabbed, in the throat while charging.


I've seen a few throat hits, all of them occured when someone was charging. It's usually the fault of the person that charged. There's a knack to charging safely - i.e. without killing yourself. You can't just run at the other guy/girl and hope for the best. Well I guess you can, but I don't recommend it.