[7th Sea] Alternate LARP Rules

[byline]

My group is seriously considering a new 7th Sea LARP which will kick off in 3-6 months. This will be our second foray into the LARPing side of the game and we would like to fix the problems that existed in our former rules, rules that didn't take the flexibility of the tabletop rules into full account. Surfing the 'Net I found several references to LARP rules existing already, but I didn't find this out until after I already developed my own system (d'oh!). Since I've put the work into it, I might as well pitch it here and get some input.

The idea is to keep challenges as simple as possible and emulating TT as closely as possible. The solution: a deck of forty cards (A-10), from which a player pulls one card. Here's the trick, though. The deck is actually two decks in one: a bell-curve deck and the full deck.

Here's how the deck is comprised. It requires two regular poker decks, each with a different backing (for the purposes of this post, assume red and blue Bicycle cards).

1) Remove all face cards (J, Q, K). They will never be used.

2) In the red deck, remove cards such that you have the following 28 cards remaining:
- 1 Ace (Diamonds)
- 2 Twos (Diamonds and Hearts)
- 3 Threes (D, H and Clubs)
- 4 each of Fours, Fives, Sixes and Sevens (each suit)
- 3 Eights (H, C and Spades)
- 2 Nines (C and S)
- 1 Ten (S)

3) From the blue deck, put in all the cards that were taken out of the red deck so there will be four of each value (12 cards added for a total deck size of 40).

The red cards represent the bell-curve (or bell) deck, while all the cards are obviously the full deck.

Now to determining a challenge tally. Say a player has a character stat of 5k3 with a TN of 25 to hit someone in combat using a sword. The gamemaster mixes up the deck and fans it out, asking the player to pick a red card. The player draws a 6. Here's how the tally is calculated:

a) Multiply the drawn card value by the number of kept dice. (6*3=18)

b) Determine the value of each unkept die by dividing the kept dice in half and rounding up. (3/2=1.5, rounded up to 2)

c) Add the bonus for each unkept die to the multiplied value determined in (a). (18+2+2=22).

d) Add free raises at the end.

In this case, 22 falls short of 25 and the challenge fails. "But wait!" cries out the tabletop purist. "What about exploding 10s? You can't ignore exploding 10s!" This is where suit comes in. If the drawn card happens to be a spade, the player is assumed to have had a 10 come up to help him reach the tally he achieved.

In the above example, if the drawn 6 was a diamond, heart or club, he's stuck at 22. But if it was a spade, he gets to draw from the full deck to add the exploding ten value. Should he draw another 10, that too will explode, and so on and so forth until the challenge is over. This revises the challenge calculation as follows:

a) Multiply the drawn card value by kept dice
b) Add the bonus for each unkept die (half the "keep" value rounded up)
c) Add exploding 10s from the full deck if the drawn card is a spade
d) Add free raises
e) Compare to TN

Only one action need be taken by the player (drawing the card) and the math is pretty simple once accustomed to it. The only thing a gamemaster has to be sure of is making the player cut the deck for exploding 10s rather than fan the deck out and let him choose on his own (since there are three blue 10s).

I did 50 samplings for each roll type from 1k1 to 8k4 using both dice and this card system, and this system is over 90% comparable to the dice system, with more accuracy the better the roll type is. There are some strange blips that come up, but they can be readily resolved (will address those if someone points them out).

Two questions for your consideration:

#1. Does this system seem simple enough to work in a LARP setting?
#2. What suggestions do you have for converting Panache rolls for phase turn order? (I haven't thought of a simple way to do this yet).

[StumpyDave]

You've just made my eyes bleed. I'm not a big number cruncher anyway and the thought of having to deal with a specially arranged deck and do sums to work out whether or not I've suceeded seems not only like a big anti fun magnet, but confusing to boot.

Surely it would be better to to come up with a system wherein you keep the adjudiction to a minimum rather than trying to replace the tabletop mechanics with another form of tabletop mechanics?

Personally I'd go for something like Attribute + skill (if appropriate) + equipment vs opponent/target number and use either a fixed target number or whittle it down to three choices (hard, harder & insane). Then I'd use panache as some sort of metagaming conceit a la drama points and their ilk.

Damn sight easier to moderate, explain and grasp than concepts like bell curves.

[salamanca]

Congrats, you just got the attention of the guy that wrote the existing LARP rules.

first comments on your system:

This is too much math to be doing on the fly fo a LARP it will slow things down way too much. Bogging down any live game for numbers is bad. You need to streamline whole combats into one or two checks at most to keep things flowing for the rest of the players.

Now as to this particular draw system: I like the Idea of card draws in certian forms and your system does work better than the ones I have seen that use a full deck and explode face cards. I like the idea of moving a suit to the explosion result except that it does give a 1 in 4 chance of explosion. (this could be tinkered with by adding back duplicates from the second card deck of the hearts and diamonds and removing the spades outright on certain numbers)

It's the factoring for kept and unkept dice that will bog you down with this mechanic.

Players hate math creeping into their LARP. They get really goofy about calculating when they put on costumes. particularly if they have to multiply and then multiply by a modifier. Your system can work using the draw and multiply by kept dice formula but you need to drop that unkept modification. It will be shifting for each check and need to be recalculated from their sheets. (bogging down play)

Instead try this:
Player draws a card fom a modified deck that erases spades from the 10's, 9's and 8's. spades still represent an explosion and redraw.

Player then multiplies the result by the Trait that applies.

then the players Adds the Skill rank to this number.

so a 5k3 drawing a 6 gets 6x3=18 +5= 23

Player no longer needs to think about dividing his skill then multiplying.

Now a couple of general 7th Sea Larp issues:

-The use of a single resolution makes it very difficult fr a weak character to prevail against a strong one. This is much more apparent than wen you tabletop and roll multiple dice. My published system still has a few issues with this as well. Some sort of Drama bid still needs to be in place to augment any check made.

-Thee are too many checks made in any tabletop combat to use in a LARP. The 7th Sea break down in combat actions makes this even more of a problem. You need to resolve combat in 1-3 checks total (preferably 1). this means you will need to calculate a way to handle damage resolution differently than the table game. a threshhold chart that automatically deals flesh, flesh, dramatic, dramatic, dramatic is what I employed but you need to get the damage resolution out of the equation.

the hit roll essentially decides if damage is dealt and the chart tells you how much.

I'm on lunch break at the moment but will add more in a couple of hours.

[salamanca]

Ah, done for the day. Now back to he topic at hand.

Like Stumpy pointed out while I was typing the last reply, things need to be simple in a LARP. The best system would be able to run with no system at all and rely solely on the GM to determine the vital bits but we both know the players will never stand for it outside of Paranoia.

You can still get away with the card deck and make it work. but you need to trim any rolls or checks you can from the game. (yes, that factor is that important, I am still talking about it) For the published version of he rules, I trimmed all conflicts (be it cmbat or social tests) down to one "roll". That took into account attack, defense and damage all at once. Even this will result in a pair of max stat characters (like rak 5+ for eveything) needing a potential 13 rounds to kill one another. (possibly as few as three though)

Now what do you think is happening for the rest of the room while that takes place? They are getting bored. You do not want that to happen and you don't want them all waiting for an outcome. You want it to take place fast and final.

Even more so for checks like picking pockets.

the trick is to default eveything you can to one of two options: An oppossed single check or a default TN set of 3-5 ranges. For you card set, it looks like you can run with a 5, 15, 25 check set and get away with it.

The other factor you want to worry about is reducing overall technical aspects of the tabletop game in character stats. It's more important that the players have fun than fuss over the details involved in every skill the game offers. when you start needing to worry about the effects of feints, ripostes and such on every round, you will mire the game in tedium. I looked at it, I playtested it with full skill sets and it just kills everything. he established playes are able to muddle through but anyone new or only passingly familiar with the system will never know what to do as there is never room to track what each skill can or cannot do.

I recommend listing skills with a rank rather than trait ranks to ease the stat load for a LARP. It's easy enough to average for the overall skill with established conversions (although you may want to list a specialty trait for each one)

What I did when we wrote the published system:
-We went with a bidding system for the random factor on "rolls" This allowed a little more control for the players and gave us a good Drama Die type mechanic. Players get a number of tokens to spend on checks with more being awarded during play to influence their checks.

-Because we used a bid system, we reduced the stats: 1-5 (or 1-10 if you include traits) is too broad a range for a bid system so we reduced everything to a "Mastery level" traits run from 1-3 with a 4 for what would normally be a rank 6 or more. This keeps the players on a more even footing but still make it rare for a neophyte to best a master.

-Eliminated traits for skills: This was a no-brainer for me. In a LARP, Doctor should be all you really need to know to deal with a medical problem. More traits gets in the way of player creativity. (again, these were mastery pointed)

-Altered the TN structure: I got lucky on this one. Dividing your standard TN by 5 basically took care of it for my system.

-Merged combat: Combat is simply a oppossed check adding finesse, wits and swordsman rank plus bid tokens. Each point you win by adds to the damage.

Initiative: Players do not want to get mired into huge combats in LARP that is resolved by cards. They play boffer LARP for those. I chucked it in favor of High Panache goes first and in the event of a tie, the player that initiates the activity gets first action. (Combat being reduced to one check is just a simultaneous check)


If you are interested in what was published, it's chapter 1 of the Rapier's Edge sourcebook. here is a full set of rules along with the effects for the major swordschools and sorceries. And a full convention event plot with the characters stated out (Including Giovanni Villanova) so you can see what they look like compared to regular characters.

[byline]

Sorry it took me so long to respond. Work week w/ loads of OT conspired against me.

You both bring up good points. It's easy as a developer to consider something simple when others haven't been exposed to it. To address both of your points:

You've just made my eyes bleed. I'm not a big number cruncher anyway and the thought of having to deal with a specially arranged deck and do sums to work out whether or not I've suceeded seems not only like a big anti fun magnet, but confusing to boot.

Surely it would be better to to come up with a system wherein you keep the adjudiction to a minimum rather than trying to replace the tabletop mechanics with another form of tabletop mechanics?

Personally I'd go for something like Attribute + skill (if appropriate) + equipment vs opponent/target number and use either a fixed target number or whittle it down to three choices (hard, harder & insane). Then I'd use panache as some sort of metagaming conceit a la drama points and their ilk.

Damn sight easier to moderate, explain and grasp than concepts like bell curves.

The system we employed the first time around used a very similar system. Unfortunately, people who did really well in the tabletop sessions between LARPs were quite ticked off they were comparatively castrated in the LARP. Conversely, players whose tallies in tabletop were so-so wound up, somehow, being gods during the LARP. It favored players with great Finesse and Panache and punished everyone else who didn't. Since I wasn't aware of other LARP rules (sorry, salamanca), I knew we would have to do an overhaul.

As for the concept of a bell curve, the players wouldn't have to really understand why it works, only that it does. If they debate it they can go home and do their own statistical analysis. lol

Now as to this particular draw system: I like the Idea of card draws in certian forms and your system does work better than the ones I have seen that use a full deck and explode face cards. I like the idea of moving a suit to the explosion result except that it does give a 1 in 4 chance of explosion. (this could be tinkered with by adding back duplicates from the second card deck of the hearts and diamonds and removing the spades outright on certain numbers)

Instead try this:
Player draws a card fom a modified deck that erases spades from the 10's, 9's and 8's. spades still represent an explosion and redraw.

Player then multiplies the result by the Trait that applies.

then the players Adds the Skill rank to this number.

so a 5k3 drawing a 6 gets 6x3=18 +5= 23

Player no longer needs to think about dividing his skill then multiplying.

Actually, there aren't spades throughout the bell curve deck; all the spades are present if you also include the filler cards to make it a complete 40-card deck. If a player has a tally with 2 or more kept dice, they can only pick cards from the bell-curve deck (red-backed in my example); thus, the number of spades drops from 10 to 7.

As for eliminating the spades from 10s, 9s, and 8s, it doesn't make sense. For example, say someone with 3k3 pulls the 3 of spades. His total is a 9. Why, then, would he be able to draw an exploding 10? The total doesn't even equal 10. Instead, I removed the lower spades (Aces, 2s and 3s) because these are seldom going to add up to a point where a 10 is a possible "die" in the total. Of course, it's not perfect. Drawing a 4 of spades with a k2 tally generates a total of 8. Adding the "roll" to it likely brings it over 10, but even at the 2k2 tally generating 10 exactly, you have two dice. How do you roll a 10 on one of them and get only a sum of 10? Definitely not perfect. It might be worthwhile to ignore the 4 of spades, but that gets tricky to remember. Not a perfect system, but maybe suspending logic is necessary to keep it simple.

I do like the idea of adding the "roll" value of the tally at the end, though. Elegant, no additional multiplying, and it's easy to understand. What effect this has on the TN is, at face value, pretty minimal. For instance, 6k3 would result in identical modifiers to the subtotal (both are six). A huge advantage if you're weak in the beginning, though, as opposed to the higher skills:

ROLL MINE YOURS
3k3 +0 +3
4k3 +2 +4
5k3 +4 +5
6k3 +6 +6
7k3 +8 +7

It might be worthwhile implementing a rule saying you can't add your "roll" total unless you have at least one dot in the applicable Knack (thus encouraging players to purchase new ones). Being the anal retentive scientist that I am, I'll check my data and recrunch it to employ your suggestion to see how close the numbers are.

I'll need to check out your rules to better understand the bidding system and challenge resolution. Was your system card-based, or did you use another randomizer?

[salamanca]

My system uses nothing for randomizers it's a bid system. Each character is granted a starting number of chips to use to influence checks. (this is based on stats and certain advantages similar to drama dice.)

The players choose after totaling their check to add chips to it or not. Players get to earn more during play and the loser of any check gets at least one back normally. This made the players think about allowing an opponent to succeed to later do something else as well as avoid rashly doing things they didn't need to against each other. (helping the GMs to manage larger numbers of players more easily) As long as you streamline the number of checks needed to do anything down to one (including combat) the players really need a relative few number of these chips.

I like this because it becomes more of an interactive game where the players avoid using the chips for actual roleplay in social stuations and duck combat for more interesting options if posible when they are short on chips. (plus those party store pirate coins work great for theme)

The best systems regardless of what you use will reduce your calculations to one additon or multplication and leave it at that.

second point: no converted LARP system will balance everything fairly. for converted characters. something will gain an upperhand be it a certain pair of traits or those that focused on knacks or advantage heavy characters.

as for your deck: this bell deck is then a second deck you need to carry around or worse, seperate fo certain checks? Bad move. that slows things even worse for a game. get all your mechanics working on one device that is universal. you will be glad you did later.

I suggested removing the higher spades for one reason alone: a high draw may not need the redraw for success in most cases. a lower draw that is not a spade represents a low roll and a low spade draw offers that better roll with a better chance of drawing a higher card from the remaining deck as reward.

again, if you don't have or can't find a copy of Rapier's Edge (or cash is an issue), drop me a PM and I'll see what I can do for ya.

[Tacitus05]

I ran a fairly succesful LARP at Chimera-con here in texas, but I didn't use the Rapier's edge rules. What worked best for me was to translate the system to something like the L5R LARP book system. It worked well as L5R and 7th sea are not that far off from table top mechanics.... It never felt like the system terribly slowed down, especially with brutes.

[salamanca]

That's a good call. converting to their system would work so long as ou just made the point to adjust one or two discrepancies (like reducing fatality)

Had 7th Sea been given the support and staffing that L5R gets, you would have seen a very different and more complete LARP system. (I will always be a bit jealous of that book)

The final word on any system for LARP has to be that te lead GM is comfortable using the system. If it works for you go with it. If you want advice on any aspect of converting something feel free to ask. I'm always happy to help out with suggestions.

[Zach]

Salamanca, if your system is what I've seen at the GenCon 7th Sea LARPs, it worked better than the L5R events that I've participated in and read about. Rules existed for all of the necessary actions, at least.

It had the added benefit of not being encumbered with a book that spent more time dealing with generic setting information than live-action specific concerns.

[salamanca]

If it was the game with Nancy Schulz, then no. it's not. if it was the game run by Dana Devries, then yes it was. (if it was card based, it's hers)

Nancy and I came up with those systems at the same time and I'm pretty sre mine was picked mostly because the decision was made before she ran her event at Gencon tha year. It is a good system. (But like any system, it has some very breakable aspects if you know where to look)

Dana is running a LARP at Gencon this year. DO sign up for it. I've seen the preliminary plans and it's a great plot. (Plus Dana has a knack for coming up with great stuff happening in the room all night)

Shameless plug insert... I am running a 7th sea larp at Origins but due to tech issues it is going to be a pick up game. Friday night 7 pm. Message me if you want details or a location. I'd love to have any and all of you there.