Unsafe Weapons?

[baphometus]

I understand that most LARPs require at least 5/8 of an inch thickness for padding, however, I've been to three hardware stores and have only been able to buy 3/8 of an inch thick foam covers.

I ended up trying to get around this by putting two strips of foam on either side of the "sword" to give it more padding, and it gave it a more "swordlike" look, but was a bit too bulky and big for my taste.

The other problem with doing that was that swords now lost all tatical advantage. The axes were easier to wield because they were lighter and just as long.

I found however, that taking off the foam sides and leaving the sword blade as just a pipe with foam over it (if only 3/8s) does two things:
One, it makes the sword look a lot better and easier to carry around. And secondly, it actually makes it just as easy as an axe to use.

I really wish I could get my hands on some 5/8s foam, but they don't sell it, and I hear that they've stopped making it or something (at least in our area) because it was unneccessary.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Also, if you're going to comment, please do not suggest that I buy latex weapons, as I live in America, and those are hard to come by, plus they're somewhat expensive and not everyone in my group could afford them.

[Peers]

More foam, smaller pipe?

[Requiem_17_23]

Have you tried using a different material for the core? I wouldn't even think of using a weapon with a plastic tube core, for fear I'd damage either the weapon or my opponent. We use carbon fibre or GRP pole, as it's stiffer and lighter.

[Kamard]

I really wish I could get my hands on some 5/8s foam, but they don't sell it, and I hear that they've stopped making it or something (at least in our area) because it was unneccessary.


We're in the same boat up here in Maine. They quit selling 5/8 stuff because it's not needed by the new plumbing regs.

We've been ordering stuff from www.mcmaster.com, specifically:

Part # 4530K161 for 3/8" external diameter fiberglass or graphite rod
Part # 4530K162 for 1/2" external diameter core
Part # 4530K165 for 7/8" external diameter core

All of that stuff is actually 6/8 of an inch thick, so it's better than the old 5/8" stuff we used to get.

Hope that helps.

Edit- Incidentally, we always used to use 1/2" pvc or cpvc for one handed weapons and 3/4" of the same for two handers, until we discovered the glory of hollow graphite. Long live the kitemaking hobby, for we are its lamprey!

[baphometus]

where exactly would I get carbon fibre rods or hollow graphite?

Any particular stores that sell them?

[Kamard]

Can't help you directly on that, we always bought it from a particular kite store that has since gone out of business, so I am not sure where to get it now or what the part information would be. I will try to get that for you.

[Theodore Sign]

Into the Wind (http://www.intothewind.com/shop/Repair_and_Kitemaking/Fiberglass_Tubes) usually has the fiberglass tubes (.505 diam.) used to make single-handed boffers. They also have graphite and even solid fiberglass, but I cannot vouch for those.

Larger diameter cores--usable for two-handers--are harder to find.

[Requiem_17_23]

Skian Mhor (http://www.skianmhor.co.uk/) would be where I'd get the things you want, but they're UK based. I'm sure there are similar things in the States.

[Ryan Paddy]

I don't think you want hollow fibreglass or carbon fibre rods for weapon cores. In my experience they're much more inclined to shatter.

You want solid rods.

[Morrius]

Wow. I've always been using PVC. I think there are a few people who used fishing rods as cores for ultralight weapons.

[pawsplay]

Kite spar is ideal. If you can't do that, get broken graphite golf shafts from clubs or pro shops; they are often free!

[Ryan Paddy]

Wow. I've always been using PVC. I think there are a few people who used fishing rods as cores for ultralight weapons.

There's a big divide in weapon styles between the USA and the rest of the world. What you're hearing here is the clash of cultures.

PVC & soft foam "boffers" are mostly only used in the USA. Everywhere else, weapons based around thin rods are standard. Many of these thinner weapons have a latex skin, so get called "latex" weapons, but underneath the latex they're closed-cell foam (as opposed to open cell upholstry foam like what gets used in boffers) and then a thin solid rod in the center.

I think you're right about US ultra-lights using thin rod cores. They're kind of a half-way point between US boffers and the thin weapons used elsewhere.

Either weapon style can be safe, but you can't really apply advice about how to build boffers to thin light weapons, and vice versa. They're very different approaches. If you want to move to weapons with rods in the middle, you probably need to move to closed-cell foam as well and learn how to surface it.

[Kamard]

I don't think you want hollow fibreglass or carbon fibre rods for weapon cores. In my experience they're much more inclined to shatter.

You want solid rods.

Go figure. We've always used hollow for the exact opposite reason. A hollow tube should be stronger than a solid piece, after all. We also found that solid rods whip more.

[Kamard]

Either weapon style can be safe, but you can't really apply advice about how to build boffers to thin light weapons, and vice versa. They're very different approaches. If you want to move to weapons with rods in the middle, you probably need to move to closed-cell foam as well and learn how to surface it.

Keep in mind, also, that at a lot of larps in the US, the Euro-style weapons aren't legal.

[Ryan Paddy]

Go figure. We've always used hollow for the exact opposite reason. A hollow tube should be stronger than a solid piece, after all. We also found that solid rods whip more.

Ah. I think we're discussing very different diameter of rods/tubes.

I'm comparing rods with 7mm-10mm diameter to hollow tubes with the same diameter. So well under 1/3 inch diameter rods & pipes.

From your previous post I gather you're using larger tubes, perhaps with thicker walls. That might explain their durability. And you couldn't go for a solid 1/2 inch (16mm) fibreglass or carbon fibre rod, it would be way too heavy.

Wide tubes like you're using may be strong, but wouldn't be suitable for making thin weapons in the style I'm used to.

I'm guessing you're making standard US-style boffers and using hollow pipes as an alternative to PVC tubes, is that about right? In that case, ignore what I said about tubes versus rods. I don't have experience with cores of that diameter so can't comment.

[Kamard]

I don't have experience with cores of that diameter so can't comment.

Indeed, we're on the opposite sides of the sea, and coming from entirely different weapon making traditions. My stuff tends to be on the order of half inch diameter.

[Carmen]

PVC & soft foam "boffers" are mostly only used in the USA. Everywhere else, weapons based around thin rods are standard. Many of these thinner weapons have a latex skin, so get called "latex" weapons, but underneath the latex they're closed-cell foam (as opposed to open cell upholstry foam like what gets used in boffers) and then a thin solid rod in the center.

Actually, all of the boffers I've seen, built, and used here in the States use closed-cell foam around the core. The open cell foam is used for thrusting tips and the heads on maces, axes, and polearms.

Unless this is a case of the US and UK being divided by a common language, and we mean different things when we each say "closed cell foam." :p

[Ryan Paddy]

Actually, all of the boffers I've seen, built, and used here in the States use closed-cell foam around the core. The open cell foam is used for thrusting tips and the heads on maces, axes, and polearms.

My mistake then.

I still think the techniques for building around a thin rod and a 1/2 inch pipe would be fairly different. Certainly the results look different from the outside. But I'm happy to be proven wrong about that. As well. Again.

[Samhaine]

The standard closed cell foam used for boffers is pre-sized pipe insulation. From what I've read about making latex weapons, the closed cell foam used for those is closer to what we use as camp/matt foam. The two types are similar, but the pre-curled nature of the insulation makes it feel a little different on impact, IME (and also makes it less suitable for creating anything except a c. 2" diameter cylinder).

[Theodore Sign]

Really, the difference (in making US-style boffers with fiberglass cores) lies in how you prepare the 5/8" foam insulation. It is easy to get PVC that will fit said insulation, so you just slide, tape, and go in that case. Some people glue the foam to the pvc, but this isn't really necessary.

The whole point of fiberglass epoxy tubing is that it is far, far stronger than even schedule 40 pvc, and at smaller diameters. However, you generally have to cut down the foam insulation vertically, and either glue it up (a pain in the ass, but gets the best result) or tape the gap shut (a bit sloppy, in my opinion). The end result is much lighter not only because the core is a lot lighter, but also you use less foam, and thus less tape in the process. Tape is the real killer when it comes to weight, which is why I use dacron sail repair tape--which is lighter and stronger--to make these types of weapons, when I can.

[Theodore Sign]

Yes, you can make pretty good "tent mat" weapons (or weapons made with higher quality flat foam, using the same methods) which have blade geometry and everything. I've seen some that look quite a lot like latex weapons, though of course they are larger...and still use tape. I mentioned this in the European vs. American LARP weapons thread, but I really don't care very much about blade geometry and the like. Hell, I even prefer the sort of "abstract" nature of boffers, anyway.

A lot of the latex weapon makers over here have had to adapt to our different game standards and such, and many have switched to "hybrid" foam weapons, as a result.

[B Nakagawa]

I discovered a really cheap (free) source of good shafts for boffer weapons back in the day. Pretty much any (golf) pro shop had bunches of broken graphite shafts in the trash.

Inexperienced golfers with too much money and not enough skill constantly break them by swinging them into the turf, cracking them right where the massive driver head is stuck on the shaft. The driver head is recovered and put on a new shaft, the old one is trashed.

All you need to do is saw off the segment with the break and use the rest. I've never had one of these recycled shafts re-break. Probably because I don't put a big bertha head on it and slam it into the ground repeatedly.

They are lighter than pvc and considerably thinner. The only complication is that they are not cylindrical. They have a slight taper which requires you to adjust the foam or to pad the shaft to make it cylindrical.

I don't know if graphite shafts are as common as they used to be. I haven't been dumpster diving in years.

[Carmen]

I've seen golf clubs at thrift stores before. Not free, but certainly cheaper than buying them new.

[Kamard]

How long are golf clubs, though?

[Samhaine]

How long are golf clubs, though?
I have a sword boffer made out of a golf club with a 32" blade, 43" total.

[David Artman]

A couple things not mentioned so far:
Drilling: Our group has fairly good success with drilling many holes into the 1/2" or 3/4" PVC cores. We kept them at least an inch or two apart and tried to spiral them so they were not in-line with each other.
Weighting: A couple of AA batteries, taped to thicken and secured in the handle, goes a LONG way toward making a weapon feel lighter and twitchier.
I suspect folks will comment that drilling weakens the PVC. I am sure it does; however, as we only touch each other (not try to knock the snot out of each other or use beats to knock away weapons) that hasn't happened that I've seen. The last weapon in which I saw the core break wasn't drilled at all--maybe the extra weight of an undrilled core makes for more momentum, which can snap the core? We use the highest pressure rating PVC we can find in our area, so it's got pretty thick walls--maybe the last one I saw break wasn't made with that gauge of tube?

I don't know what drilling carbon fiber will do, but I suspect it's already llight enough without doing that.

[grandmaster_cain]

I'm hardly an expert on latex weapons, but I can give some advice on the US style boffers.

You can find 505 kitespar at any kite shop in your area. 610 is suitable for heavier, longer weapons, but it won't handle polearms. Kitespar in general is a decent blend of low cost and high durability.
[edit]PVC can make for some decent blades, and it's pretty cheap. However, it's not nearly as durable as kitespar, and it's much heavier. If you're more focused on cost, and the performance difference doesn't matter, then PVC can be an excellent choice.

For foam, I personally prefer dish-packing foam. U-Haul sells it under the trade number of CF1240, so you can find it at any packaging or U-Haul store, and it's usually pretty cheap. If you can find the version without perforations, it generally lasts longer; but the 1-foot perforations make it really easy to measure out. Usually, four or five feet for a 505 spar will make a safe blade.

Some people swear by carpet underlayment foam. Personally, I find it to be far too heavy, but YMMV. You can get a lot of good results from camp mat foam, but that gets expensive.

You can then "shape" the blade by bending pipe insulation around it, to remove the club look. You definitely want to use fabric covers instead of duct tape, though; duct tape might look more metallic, but it adds a lot of weight, and it hurts more to get hit with.

This process will give you a good looking, decently light, durable and functional blade. It's not a formula for an ultra-high-performance blade, or a visual masterwork, but it will get the job done.

[Theodore Sign]

610 is suitable for heavier, longer weapons, but it won't handle polearms

Gotta disagree here. I've made plenty of polearms (72") using kitespar like this alone, with no problems. Not only that, if you anchor "hilt" end of the spar in a length of 1/2", schedule 40 pvc, you'll add even more rigidity, balance, and overall strength. As a bonus, it bulks up the handle a great deal, and avoids the "pencil grip" phenomenon.

[grandmaster_cain]

My apologies, I think we're using a different definition of polearms. What I'd call short pole weapons (72" or so) are fine for 610 kitespar. However, it just won't cut it for 12-foot pikes, which are what I consider to be polearms. You're absolutely right, though; 610 works for weapons around the two-meter mark.

[baphometus]

I seem to have found a "compromise" of sorts...

Using golf club cores along with flat tent matt has allowed me to make very realistic looking weapons that are safe. The only downside is they're not painted in Latex, however, I don't have the time to do that.

I'll post some pictures up later of the stuff I made if I can figure out how to post images...

anyone else ever used golf club cores and flat foam to make weapons with realistic geometry?