[Blacksky, raiding] I am getting rather frustrated

[IceShadow]

and I'm not sure what to do about it. This guild alliance thing is a great idea, but I'm starting to seriously doubt the intelligence of several of the GMs who are willing to run with us, and I'm getting very fed up with the politics involved. I would have given up on the idea of an alliance with other guilds weeks ago if it wasn't necessary to raid.

I've had arguments erupt over silly things like hunters using an ability that they're SUPPOSED to be using (although they might have been using it wrong in this case, it's hard to see from the MT position) that have caused someone from our OWN GUILD to say they won't raid with us anymore. I've got shamen in other guilds, SOME OF THEM THE GMs, who refuse to lay off earthshock rank 7 because it's the only way they get to use their stormstrike. The other GMs are not communicating well, if at all, and the forums go completely unused except to sign up members, and even THAT is not being done correctly. GMs are signing up their members instead of having their members sign up for themselves, despite my repeated proddings to have them tell their members to sign up for themselves.

And look at this page: http://forum.iceshadow.com/viewforum.php?f=2 . Notice the sticky announcement. Notice the two threads Wildwarchild has posted, and how they're both locked and one RESPONDED TO. And yet another thread pops up instead of putting it in the same one!

I want to experience end-game content, I really do. If I don't feel like that's a possibility, I'm not seeing much left in this game for me to do. But I'm getting really, really frustrated, upset, and exasperated with the only method I can see to experience that end-game content.

[Weltenreiter]

I can feel for you on that one. In EQ we tried pretty much all the various "casual" approaches to raiding. Doing smaller targets just with our guild, various attempts at guild alliances, the works. Some worked for a while, but most of them were just, as I called it, "raiding for raiding's sake", ie "doable" smaller targets instead of stuff that actually gave up-to-date high end loot.

Was it fun? Yeah kinda. (Not as much fun as doing the same targets a year later with a single group just for the hell of it)
Was it extremes of slamming one's head against the wall at the atrocious performance, organsiation and plain slowness we witnessed? You bet. (Actually, bitching about those raids not led by us in our private chat was a perverse source of fun in its own right.)

After like ~2 years we had it with the ingrates and joined a proper raiding guild instead. Short-cutty and cheaty? Yeah maybe, but whatever. We wanted to advance our own characters too for a change. After all the work we put into *trying*, we felt more than entitled to bypass regular progression. (Not that anyone of us saw any inherent value in "earning things the hard way" in the first place".)

This post probably won't help you either, I just wanted to let you know that what you're experiencing isn't at all abnormal or anything.

[Tylorva]

Guild Alliances are much harder to manage than a single guild.

But give it some time, as it will settle down once we get going. And once the DKP system starts running, they will quickly learn how to use the forums. Trust me on this, I have seen it happen. :-)

[eskatonic]

From my one and only Raid so far, I can already tell that, for me, continued fun and adventure in the World of Warcraft will involve levelling another alt or two up to 60, and waiting for the Burning Crusade.

It was awful. And even my usual joy from working with other Blacksky folks was overshadowed by the awfulness. Standing around. Waiting. Listening to endless instructions on the exact steps needed to bring boss X down. Standing around. Fighting for a few minutes, dying, rezzing, standing around.

Listening to an idiot go on and on about what she was putting in her mouth IRL, how much her belly ached, how drunk she was getting. Watching a "special needs" 10 year old spam the chat window with the same emote. Over. And over. And over. Having a Level 60 Priest tell everyone he couldn't handle healing.

Edit: Oh, yeah, and as Blacksky reminded me, one person calling things "gay" over Ventrilo. Thanks to my fearless guild leader for putting a stop to that!

All this joy came a net loss of at least 10 gold (and several SAN points), from damaged equipment, quaffed Major potions, and tipping the person who was kind enough to summon a repairbot.

Not winning a single piece of loot. Not even a green.

For 5 hours.

I will do 5 man instances, and I think there might be 10 man raids or something, I could be convinced to go on.

But the hell if I'm subjecting myself to an afternoon like that again. I can't imagine actually signing up for it.

eskatonic


p.s. - then again, I did get to hear "whilst" a lot. ;)

[Ghostwise]

I want to experience end-game content, I really do. If I don't feel like that's a possibility, I'm not seeing much left in this game for me to do. But I'm getting really, really frustrated, upset, and exasperated with the only method I can see to experience that end-game content.

That is usually the point at which people end up joining a raiding guild, after frustration builds up past their tolerance level. :)

A preferable strategy, IMO, is to start recruiting the best elements from other guilds because we share a style and *like* playing together, until the critical size is reached - maybe reached along one or two guilds we can actually get along with. It's long and might seem icky, but it actually saves tons of drama and frustration over time.

[IceShadow]

I hear ya, Esk. For me, some of that is part of the game (the waiting around for people to be ready, the instructions giving/getting) and some of it is chaff I have to put up with to get the warm bodies needed to raid. At least the people making homophobic comments stopped after I approached them privately.

If we could only raid with mature RPGnet people, or even mature people in general, then it wouldn't be an issue. But we can't.

I think the key to all this is a more stringent set of rules. Right now I'm sacrificing too much in terms of play ability and maturity requirement to try and allow everyone to have their fun, and I think it's damaging the fun of people bothered by others' lack of play ability and maturity. That's probably why I'm getting so frustrated.

Sav, what's a link to your european alliance's forum? Maybe I can pilfer their rules and enforce them a little more strictly.

And Esk, while I wouldn't say not to give up on raiding, I would say don't give up on it forever. It might be your thing again once we have the kinks ironed out, even if that's months down the road.

[Copernicu]

The first few raids suck. Especially in a new instance.

Make use of your ignore list on WoW and in Vent. Sometimes people just don't play well with others. They'll go away eventually. Or you will. The other option is to start coming down with an iron fist on those two channels. Add in a rule that people need to be respectful and learn to STFU when asked by the raid leader.

Things get better as people get more experienced and used to the raid environment. Or they don't, and you quit the guild and apply to another one that has made it through the initial growing pains.


Look at the guilds and their members. Is it one group that is annoying and sucks, or is it just a few members. If there's an entire guild with immature anti-authority people in it, just cut your losses and ditch them. But if it's a few people, talk to their guild leader and say "This guy is being annoying and killing the alliance."

[Zombie Shakespeare]

Not sure what to suggest here, I've heard this exact same scenario from friends of mine who have reached 60, and it usually is a breaking point for most people. If you are the primary raid organizer, it may be time to implement the infamous blacklist, where you put down names of people you flat out will not tolerate in raid groups anymore. If you become a popular raid organizer, this alone will cause alot of people to fall in line.

It saddens me that I continue to hear about this kind of trouble with the end game content, yet Blizzard continues to churn it out with little to no effort to improve the experience for the players who are organizing it. I'd like to get to 60, if only for the upcoming expansion, but stuff like this really puts a cloud on that horizon.

[IceShadow]

It saddens me that I continue to hear about this kind of trouble with the end game content, yet Blizzard continues to churn it out with little to no effort to improve the experience for the players who are organizing it. I'd like to get to 60, if only for the upcoming expansion, but stuff like this really puts a cloud on that horizon.
But what can they do? More non-raid content doesn't fix the problems within raids themselves.

[Elizabeth Brooks]

Yes, Blizzard sort of put themselves into a box by designing endgame raid content in the first place. Honestly, there should be challenging endgame instances, but not one dungeon in the game should require or allow more than 10 people. The 15+ man raid dungeons just puts a barrier in the endgame between casual players and hardcore players and changes WoW from one game from 1-59 into a completely different game at 60.

Also, epic gear just breaks high-end PVP, and stratifies the progression of raid instances. The relative lack of loot for most raiders in each raid artificially prolongs each raid dungeon's life.

IMO, the model is not just broken, it's completely shattered.

[Zombie Shakespeare]

But what can they do? More non-raid content doesn't fix the problems within raids themselves.

It's like I stated, and you've pointed out here. Blizzard has done a poor job providing players with at least a base set of tools for handling raid organization, not to mention looting during raids and other issues. If Blizzard's goal was to focus most of their late game content on 20-40 person raids, one would expect to see some inter-guild tools to support that in game, but none are present. Blacksky is one of the most thriving guilds I've been in, but even it has trouble trying to field 20+ 60's for 4 or more hours at a time. Fortunately, players have made do with their own creations (this is where WoW's easily modified UI has saved their ass).

Outside of Blizzard actually doing anything about the problem, you're probably going to have to find a set of UI mods that you want everyone running when they raid, and requiring their use. This necessity is probably why you see so many UI enhancement suites floating around the web (Nurfed, CT, Cosmo, etc.). Ultimately, raid organizing is a crash course in large scale management (hell, people are actually listing their WoW raiding skills in job resumes!), and management sometimes requires you to be mean. It's nice that eveyone wants to be a special snowflake, but when that special snowflake is costing 19+ other people 4 or more hours of game play with no reward, well, it's time to give 'em the boot :D

[eskatonic]

And Esk, while I wouldn't say not to give up on raiding, I would say don't give up on it forever. It might be your thing again once we have the kinks ironed out, even if that's months down the road.

I would be more than happy to help you out at that point. The only reason I didn't bail on this raid was because I was there to help the Blacksky folks in the first place. If it had been a pick-up group, I would have disconnected so fast the internet would still be spinning.

:D

eskatonic

[Topher]

Really, organizing 40 people to do *anything* in a coordinated fashion is going to be an excercise in frustration - ask any management-level folks. At one company I was in charge of a 25-person team and coordination was a nightmare, and those people didn't all have to be in the same place at the same time doing the same thing.

Throw in the fact that WoW is a game, which people do for fun, and your catherding quotient will skyrocket.

Topher

[Dorchadas]

Heh. I've been in pick-up raids. One was an exercise in hideous frustration, and the other downed two bosses (though I lost the roll on the Loa cloak :( ).

About raids...I think they aren't fixing it due to economics. The raiding barrier does make some people leave, but it makes other people level up alts (more money). Guilds need months to learn a new raid dungeon (more money), and then have to run it over and over again to get loot for the NEXT dungeon and repeat the process (LOTS more money).

Blizzard is planning on focusing more on 5 and 10 man content in the Expansion (though with a few raid dungeons so the high-end guilds don't get annoyed and leave for EQ2 or whatever), but you have to buy the expansion to get that. And, unless something in Blizzard's design philosophy changes, I expect that a few months after the expansion comes out, they'll put out a new raid dungeon and the whole thing will start all over again.

Plus, there are already ilevel 90 or so items in Naxxramas. Assuming that the high level dungeons in the expansion give items that are a few levels above the max (so, say, around 75 or so), that means the gap will only get worse, since raiders will have ilevel 100+ items. In order to get their phat epix, people will have to 20-man BWL with their level 70 characters...thus continuing the problem of requiring raids.

Though Karazhan does make me hopeful. It's apparently a 10-man dungeon that you can be saved to, like a raid instance, with over dozen bosses, shortcuts if you've beaten some bosses, and a flight path so you don't have to climb the tower every time. That's the direction they should have taken from the beginning.

[IceShadow]

I don't have a problem with how raiding is set up. I have a problem with the people I'm trying to raid with.

[Elizabeth Brooks]

I do have a problem with how raiding is set up, and I think that it leads to the kind of problems you're having. I don't think it's necessary for customer retention at all (or at least, it wouldn't have been if the game hadn't been designed around pushing people into endgame raids).

[Arawaen]

But what can they do? More non-raid content doesn't fix the problems within raids themselves.

The problem with raids is that the challenge is not so much the raid bosses themselves but the logistics of organizing 20-40 people who are both competent as players - knowing how their character's abilities work and when to use them; competent as characters - having the appropriate skillsets and gear for the situation and of course competent in interpersonal skills - knowing how to behave in a group of people of differing backgrounds and beliefs.

We have had to pug fill most of our raid attempts which means we have not been able assemble a team with the appropriate classes (last ZG run we have 0 mages and 1 Warlock). I have no way of knowing what their gear was, but I know mine could be improved via 5-man instances, I assume the same for others as well. Until recently I could not bring Major Mana Potions because it wasn't until my last Scholo run that I got the recipe and I couldn't afford 20g for 5 potions.

[Heronymus]

Throw in the fact that WoW is a game, which people do for fun, and your catherding quotient will skyrocket.

I don't play WoW, but I always find Topher interesting to read, so I ducked into the thread, and then caught the above quote.

I originally read the statement at thus:


Throw in the fact that WoW is a game, which people do for fun, and your catheterizing quotient will skyrocket.

It made me laugh, because it's also true my way...

[Topher]

It made me laugh, because it's also true my way...

:eek:

If *that* is a requirement I'm never ever raiding, for sure!

Toph

[Plume]

:eek:

If *that* is a requirement I'm never ever raiding, for sure!

"Raiding is like a dose of clap. Before is pleasure, after is a pain in the dong."

"What?!?"

"One of Whistler's, your majesty."

[IceShadow]

OK.

I think I have this problem licked, for now.

More stringent rules will be put into place, and among them will be "If you have an issue with someone else raiding, either their attitude, play, or if you're offended by something they say, tell the raid leader about it...do NOT try and correct it on your own, through vent or in-game chat. Let the raid leader correct it, period." Or something to that affect. Then we won't have a repeat of an exasperated person in one guild telling off people in another guild and offending them.

These rules will also have a built-in strike system that first suspends, then bans people from raiding with us.

As far as people not signing up correctly, I will say that anyone who signs up in the thread as asked will be signed up for it, whereas people signing up any other way (through someone else's post, by telling me in-game, by starting a new thread instead of adding to the current one) will be added to the ALTERNATES list, and thus if people sign up correctly, they may be skipped in the raid.

[Jigglypuff]

I've never been a guild leader (other then being in charge when the GL was having computer problems, away on vacation etc..). Still I was an Senior Officer in EQ and I can tell you that it was much more fustrating then just being a peon (Sorry I mean regular member!).

I used to pull my hair out at raids since our leader was busy making groups and the other 69 people on raid would be trying to ask her 100 different questions. No matter how many times I'd answer the question or tell the person the leader was busy, sure enough they'd either continue to ask the same darn question or find a new one to ask.

Maybe it's partly my fault I'm one of those people who prefers not to raid even if I've never seen the raid zones in wow. In the end by me not being there forces you to take one more pug person that eats cherrys during the raid and gets sick.

I can put up with a lot of crap. Still some things cause me to get mad quickly. 90% of those things can happen in raid. While I wouldn't express my fustration to anyone other then our own guild it would still make myself ask why I want to put myself though it.

Lastly I can understand why you're upset. Heck Hutch can not advance his gear by much more then it already is, unless he raids. Yes I can get him a few more dps here, or a few more ac there, but really the only big jumps in gear he's going to see is if he starts getting the might set.

[Elizabeth Brooks]

Yay for clearly defined rules and better organization. :)

BTW, IceShadow, should I get more active again and get a character to 60, I would be willing to raid. I don't like the idea, but it's something to do with the guild and that makes it more interesting. :)

[IceShadow]

By the time you'd get to it, we'll either have given up on the prospect or have it running much smoother.

[Elizabeth Brooks]

I am (perhaps unsurprisingly) fine with either outcome. :) I do think it'd be better if it got smoothed over and working, because wasted effort sucks.

[IceShadow]

I am (perhaps unsurprisingly) fine with either outcome. :) I do think it'd be better if it got smoothed over and working, because wasted effort sucks.
And if it doesn't work, I doubt I'll be around to play with anyhow.

[Elizabeth Brooks]

The not being around sucks.

I mean, I'm fine with doing stuff that isn't raiding, not that I'm fine with people leaving the game in disgust. :(

[Topher]

And if it doesn't work, I doubt I'll be around to play with anyhow.

It's too bad you don't enjoy the game anymore. :(

The real game, I mean, not the endgame wankery.

Topher

[Jigglypuff]

It saddens me that all MMO end game causes this much stress and fustration. I mean it is a game after all. I don't understand why game companies can't do both challenging and non stressful in the same game =)

[IceShadow]

I enjoy the endgame I've had a taste of so far, rather in spite of the wankery.

Without the wankery it would be gaming heaven for me.

I would LOVE to be a piece in a collective effort of over three dozen people to defeat an enemy.

[D. Archon]

OK.

I think I have this problem licked, for now.

More stringent rules will be put into place

Good stuff.

It saddens me that all MMO end game causes this much stress and fustration. I mean it is a game after all. I don't understand why game companies can't do both challenging and non stressful in the same game =)

I think it's about 90% the jackasses, and 10% the content. Yeah, the content is tough, but that's to keep the obessive compulsive no-life brigade occupied and paying, more than anything.

[Elizabeth Brooks]

As much as I dislike the raid lockouts, I think they pretty much determine that raiders don't have to be "obsessive compulsive no-life brigade" you clever group attacker, you.

[Plume]

It saddens me that all MMO end game causes this much stress and fustration. I mean it is a game after all. I don't understand why game companies can't do both challenging and non stressful in the same game =)

I agree a whole lot with hearts and flowers and everything. The fun is fun. The drudgery isn't, and particularly not when it looms so large that the fun doesn't feel fun anymore.

[Heronymus]

:eek:

If *that* is a requirement I'm never ever raiding, for sure!

Toph

Trying to manage anyone is annoying. Trying to manage a bunch of geeks is about as much fun as getting a catheter, in my experience.

I have great respect and sympathy for those who try to organize things, and if I'm participating I always do my best to be compliant and helpful.

[D. Archon]

As much as I dislike the raid lockouts, I think they pretty much determine that raiders don't have to be "obsessive compulsive no-life brigade" you clever group attacker, you.

Hey, i've raided too. I'm talking about the 24/7 types that do nothing except raid 50 hours a week and turn it into a full time job. So back off with those "group attack" accusations.

[IceShadow]

The obvious solution is to require everyone in Blacksky to dig up dirt on everyone who raids on RPGnet, and force them to port their characters over to Kirin Tor. Or make a horde alt and powerdrive it to 60 if they have no horde-side raiding characters.

Fly, my little monkeys! Fly!

[Ghostwise]

not one dungeon in the game should require or allow more than 10 people.

Apparently, many players disagree with your opinion of what should be.

I know that helping a bit with having an EQ guild that was casual and friendly, yet raiding at a pretty high level (and with large crews) in a succesful manner was my preferred part of EQ1.

Organizing, managing and cat-herding this mess is extremely hard, but very rewarding when you make it.

[Elizabeth Brooks]

Apparently, many players disagree with your opinion of what should be.

I might be willing to go as high as 15. The larger the group necessary, the less accessible the content becomes. I don't believe in making content all that difficult* to access.

* that's not the same as saying I think the content should be easy, btw

[Jigglypuff]

The obvious solution is to require everyone in Blacksky to dig up dirt on everyone who raids on RPGnet, and force them to port their characters over to Kirin Tor. Or make a horde alt and powerdrive it to 60 if they have no horde-side raiding characters.

Fly, my little monkeys! Fly!

*Looks at his guns*

Ok who am I kidnapping first?? BTW this better get me some DKP's!:p

[IceShadow]

It's too bad you don't enjoy the game anymore. :(

The real game, I mean, not the endgame wankery.

Topher
I've already addressed the second part of that, but as for the first...I've done that content. Multiple times. I've played the instances out, and I've explored every nook and cranny that five-man dungeons have to offer.

I want to explore and conquer the 20- and 40-man dungeons. I want to keep going further in the game.

I'm not the kind of guy who can get 80% through Prince of Persia, hit a spot where I can't go further, and then go back and start over to have fun. I will either be able to conquer that last 20%, or I will put the game away and not play it anymore.

[J'Dai]

I am not be a Blacksky member but, as other posters have suggested, these problems seem darn near universal in game.

It saddens me that all MMO end game causes this much stress and fustration. I mean it is a game after all. I don't understand why game companies can't do both challenging and non stressful in the same game =)
Ironically, I recently reread a quote from someone - written when NWN was just coming out - that summarizes a bit of this discussion.

Hanna: "I do not like Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Games (MMORPG), because they are owned and operated by someone else, and the players are treated as a source of income, not as a source of inspiration. While this may be a great thing for the publishers and developers and producers of content, it is — to me — a horrible situation for players. "*

I will admit to disagree with this statement up until, roughly, level 55. Maybe 60. Yes, the game changes quite a bit and many casual players are left behind. Whether that's by design or not, it can often make non-raiders feel like yesterday's news.

I read Hannah's words and read the posts here and I cannot help but embrace my altism. Sure, I may never see teh phat lewt but I won't feel some of the unique stress (good AND bad) that go with raiding. When/if the WoW raiding situation improves, I'll have a few characters that will be ready to check it out.

*Quote Source: http://www.bitcheswithglitches.com/nwn/archives/and_so_it_begins_by_hanna_000001.html

[CrazyIvan]

IceShadow:

http://www.ccraidalliance.org is the guild alliance I run with. They've got two groups, one of which is half-way through AQ40, the other one (which is new) clearing MC.

Take a look around, see what you like, etc. Let me know if I can try and put you in touch with any of the guild leaders or the like.

[IceShadow]

Thank you Ivan. At the very least, I will be looking through their rules and stealing...er...gathering inspiration from them.

[verdantgreen]

I hope the raiding works out...I've yet to be able to attend any of Blacksky's scheduled raids because they've thus far occured on my two ineligible days each week, hehe :-)

So far, the end-game has been an absolute bore for me, but if I can actually get into one of these raids that situation should improve.

I tend to be like the Captain - now that I've reached the end, I'm frustrated at the difficulty in getting access to content I'd love to simply see...hell, I'm not even that interested in the loot - I just want to be there and help take down that giant eyeball at the end of Ahn'Qiraj or knock the cinders out of Rangaros!

[IceShadow]

I read Hannah's words and read the posts here and I cannot help but embrace my altism. Sure, I may never see teh phat lewt but I won't feel some of the unique stress (good AND bad) that go with raiding. When/if the WoW raiding situation improves, I'll have a few characters that will be ready to check it out.
Oh, trust me. I definately envy it.

And you know what will improve the raiding situation for us the most? Having 40 people who can play at the same time from our guild, which is the most mature, responsible, and drama-free guild I've ever seen.

But that's not going to happen. So I'll do what I have to in other areas.

[IceShadow]

I hope the raiding works out...I've yet to be able to attend any of Blacksky's scheduled raids because they've thus far occured on my two ineligible days each week, hehe :-)

So far, the end-game has been an absolute bore for me, but if I can actually get into one of these raids that situation should improve.

I tend to be like the Captain - now that I've reached the end, I'm frustrated at the difficulty in getting access to content I'd love to simply see...hell, I'm not even that interested in the loot - I just want to be there and help take down that giant eyeball at the end of Ahn'Qiraj or knock the cinders out of Rangaros!
I think I'll schedule ZG on Sunday, Noon-4 this time. We'll see if we get a response from that.

[Zombie Shakespeare]

I'd just like to point out that the raiding isn't just an issue in the end game. Heck, we've all experienced it, the awful PUG, that one special group that makes us wonder whether we should ever play again. Raiding is no different, you get a bad raid group and the instance will be horrible, you get a great one and you'll love raiding. The same principle is at work throughout the game, just on a different scale.

[IceShadow]

I'd just like to point out that the raiding isn't just an issue in the end game. Heck, we've all experienced it, the awful PUG, that one special group that makes us wonder whether we should ever play again. Raiding is no different, you get a bad raid group and the instance will be horrible, you get a great one and you'll love raiding. The same principle is at work throughout the game, just on a different scale.
I would agree, but it only takes one or two complete jerks to ruin an experience, and the odds of that happening with 40 people is much higher than with 5.

EDIT: In any case, this thread is not meant to exist to criticize the institution of raiding. Do that in the other endgame thread. This thread is to give constructive criticism to help me make my experience better within the already-existing institution, and to offer me support before I flip out and sell my account and the entire contents of my guild's bank on Ebay for $2.53.

FURTHER EDIT: The above comment was not aimed at Zombie Shakespeare, who actually defended raiding, but others who used this thread to complain about raiding in general before the other thread was made.

[Plume]

I think I'll schedule ZG on Sunday, Noon-4 this time. We'll see if we get a response from that.

Count me in on that--eaerlier raid times turn out to work as well or better for me.

[Joe]

The obvious solution is to require everyone in Blacksky to dig up dirt on everyone who raids on RPGnet, and force them to port their characters over to Kirin Tor. Or make a horde alt and powerdrive it to 60 if they have no horde-side raiding characters.

Fly, my little monkeys! Fly!


*looks at his equipped-to-raid level 60 Undead Rogue languishing due to Feathermoon's raiding guild population imploding and transferring elsewhere*

I'll probably put in an appearance on Kirin Tor once paid server tranfers are finally turned on for Feathermoon. The way you're dealing with the early stages of raiding problems makes me think I'd probably enjoy crushing large scary monsters with you guys. (i.e. you're handling it better than most, in my experience...) :)

[CyanideBreathmint]

Weeeell. I can level Alexandrine up if you want. *sheepish grin*

After all, Eili's now sixty and raiding occasionally.

- Mel

[IceShadow]

*looks at his equipped-to-raid level 60 Undead Rogue languishing due to Feathermoon's raiding guild population imploding and transferring elsewhere*

I'll probably put in an appearance on Kirin Tor once paid server tranfers are finally turned on for Feathermoon. The way you're dealing with the early stages of raiding problems makes me think I'd probably enjoy crushing large scary monsters with you guys. (i.e. you're handling it better than most, in my experience...) :)
We would welcome you with somewhat reserved, but completely open arms. Although not very reserved.

And I'm still not getting anyone trying to pursuade me out of selling my account on Ebay. This makes me feel unloved. :(

EDIT: ( ;) )

Also edit: But don't transfer over until you see the times we raid and our rules and DKP system, in case it's something you wouldn't like. No need to waste $25 by finding out you wouldn't WANT to raid with us. Unless you just want to play with cool people. Then who cares about our raiding and come over anyway. :D

[IceShadow]

Weeeell. I can level Alexandrine up if you want. *sheepish grin*

After all, Eili's now sixty and raiding occasionally.

- Mel
Awww.

Don't sacrifice your P+W time for us if you're having fun over there, Mel. We'd love to have you, but not due to a guilt trip. :)

[Elizabeth Brooks]

We would welcome you with somewhat reserved, but completely open arms. Although not very reserved.

And I'm still not getting anyone trying to pursuade me out of selling my account on Ebay. This makes me feel unloved. :(


Please please don't ebay your account...


....until I can get the stuff out of the bank that I want.

Wait, I told that wrong: Please don't eBay your account.

[Joe]

We would welcome you with somewhat reserved, but completely open arms. Although not very reserved.

And I'm still not getting anyone trying to pursuade me out of selling my account on Ebay. This makes me feel unloved. :(

EDIT: ( ;) )

Also edit: But don't transfer over until you see the times we raid and our rules and DKP system, in case it's something you wouldn't like. No need to waste $25 by finding out you wouldn't WANT to raid with us. Unless you just want to play with cool people. Then who cares about our raiding and come over anyway. :D


I'd be more worried if I was welcomed with enthusiasm and lust. The smell of undead flesh should be enough to at least give people pause... ;)

No worries, though. I have no plans to blow $25 sight-unseen. Once they open up character transfers, I'll take a more thorough look at things and probably get ahold of you in-game to talk about it. :)

[Professor Phobos]

If we could only raid with mature RPGnet people, or even mature people in general, then it wouldn't be an issue. But we can't.

Well, you can, if you're willing to wait until more of us level to 60. I want to raid with Blacksky with Redeyes. I'm just, y'know, a bit slow when it comes to levelling.

Maybe take a break, start an alt? PVP?


I think the key to all this is a more stringent set of rules. Right now I'm sacrificing too much in terms of play ability and maturity requirement to try and allow everyone to have their fun, and I think it's damaging the fun of people bothered by others' lack of play ability and maturity. That's probably why I'm getting so frustrated.

Well, what you could do is contact those people who have behaved in a mature way quietly and set up a side alliance. Or, I dunno, we could go over to ENWorld and see if they have a WoW guild or somesuch.

[Zombie Shakespeare]

And I'm still not getting anyone trying to pursuade me out of selling my account on Ebay. This makes me feel unloved. :(

Fearless leader, do not forsake us to the "Looking for guild" wasteland! Seriously, Blacksky was one of the reasons I came back, I've lost count of how many guilds in the past have just piddled out on me (hmm, maybe I'm cursed....). In any event, I'm just like you, I want to see all of the game at least once, and I can guarantee I'll be signing up for the raids, but right now I'm a mere 22 and it's still a long haul to 60 :(

[eskatonic]

I would agree, but it only takes one or two complete jerks to ruin an experience, and the odds of that happening with 40 people is much higher than with 5.

FURTHER EDIT: The above comment was not aimed at Zombie Shakespeare, who actually defended raiding, but others who used this thread to complain about raiding in general before the other thread was made.

???

Are you talking about me?

[Ghostwise]

The obvious solution is to require everyone in Blacksky to dig up dirt on everyone who raids on RPGnet, and force them to port their characters over to Kirin Tor. Or make a horde alt and powerdrive it to 60 if they have no horde-side raiding characters.

As I implied in my previous posts, it is easier to find good WoW players on KT and introduce them to OGO.

Among the alliance, some guilds are going to explode. Each guild will have people leaving it, people joining it, etc. It is quite possible to draw a considerable benefit from those inevatibilities.

Guildmembers just have to take notes about decent players in their groups. Those people get invited to Blacksky groups for evaluation purposes. After howver many precautions you deem necessary, discuss RPG.net and if they feel like joining.

[eskatonic]

OK.

I think I have this problem licked, for now.

More stringent rules will be put into place, and among them will be "If you have an issue with someone else raiding, either their attitude, play, or if you're offended by something they say, tell the raid leader about it...do NOT try and correct it on your own, through vent or in-game chat. Let the raid leader correct it, period." Or something to that affect. Then we won't have a repeat of an exasperated person in one guild telling off people in another guild and offending them.

These rules will also have a built-in strike system that first suspends, then bans people from raiding with us.

Again, are you referring to me?

I know I said something to the offending parties a few times. I asked the emote spammer to please stop (politely), and I told cherry-eating-dumbass to save her comments on her alcohol intolerance for her AA meetings ( . . . not politely, I confess. By that point in the game, I had one nerve left, and she was standing on it.).

eskatonic

[IceShadow]

Well, you can, if you're willing to wait until more of us level to 60. I want to raid with Blacksky with Redeyes. I'm just, y'know, a bit slow when it comes to levelling.

Maybe take a break, start an alt? PVP?
My concern, and what I've seen happen in the past, is this: We wait, and we get more people reaching 60, but in the meantime the people who were at 60 have moved on to other games. Because they don't want to play alts, and don't much care for it, and have done what they can do with five or even ten people at a time.

I have no idea what happened to Harsh Grim Con/Venilin, but I have a feeling this may be part of it.

People must be entertained or they will, understandably, go elsewhere. I feel it is my job as GM to help with this entertainment, at least as far as Blacksky goes.
Well, what you could do is contact those people who have behaved in a mature way quietly and set up a side alliance. Or, I dunno, we could go over to ENWorld and see if they have a WoW guild or somesuch.
I think the new rules system will eliminate the troublemakers and/or immature people quickly. We'll see.

[Elizabeth Brooks]

I would agree, but it only takes one or two complete jerks to ruin an experience, and the odds of that happening with 40 people is much higher than with 5.

EDIT: In any case, this thread is not meant to exist to criticize the institution of raiding. Do that in the other endgame thread. This thread is to give constructive criticism to help me make my experience better within the already-existing institution, and to offer me support before I flip out and sell my account and the entire contents of my guild's bank on Ebay for $2.53.

FURTHER EDIT: The above comment was not aimed at Zombie Shakespeare, who actually defended raiding, but others who used this thread to complain about raiding in general before the other thread was made.

We moved to the other thread...and it promptly died.

I think it needs a priest.

[IceShadow]

???

Are you talking about me?
I wasn't talking about anyone here with the first comment. The further edit was aimed at the first edit, and concerned people bashing raiding in general in this thread, which wasn't helping me at all. No one here was referenced by my first quoted comment.
Again, are you referring to me?

I know I said something to the offending parties a few times. I asked the emote spammer to please stop (politely), and I told cherry-eating-dumbass to save her comments on her alcohol intolerance for her AA meetings ( . . . not politely, I confess. By that point in the game, I had one nerve left, and she was standing on it.).

eskatonic
You weren't the one I was thinking about when I made that rule, no, but as long as you've put yourself in the spotlight (thanks for volunteering! ;) ), I'll examine how it would apply to you.

An individual was using homophobic comments on Vent. You complained in our guild OOC channel. This works, as our guild is mature enough to be able to handle such complaints and not implode, but the raid channel would've been a bad place for that. Ideally it would've been whispered to me, but the guild OOC channel worked almost as well. I addressed the situation, he apoligized to me, and the situation was taken care of in an ideal maner.

The second bit...should also have been privately mentioned to me first. Luckily everyone ignored the AA bit, but mocking her openly doesn't solve the situation...it creates hard feelings. It would've been best for people to whisper me and tell me that now was not the time to discuss one's personal tolerance for alcohol, and I would've msged her and that would've been that.

Make sense?

[IceShadow]

Fearless leader, do not forsake us to the "Looking for guild" wasteland! Seriously, Blacksky was one of the reasons I came back, I've lost count of how many guilds in the past have just piddled out on me (hmm, maybe I'm cursed....). In any event, I'm just like you, I want to see all of the game at least once, and I can guarantee I'll be signing up for the raids, but right now I'm a mere 22 and it's still a long haul to 60 :(
I wouldn't disband the guild. I'd put someone else in charge of it.

And don't feel rushed by this thread to help me out. That is NOT the solution. Enjoy the game, and when you get here, we'll be waiting (probably).

[D. Archon]

I want to keep going further in the game.
.

It's for this reason that i'm not making many alts on the horde side. I made one recently to screw around in Mulgore, but honestly, doing the whole "barrens, stonetalon, thousand needles, etc." thing doesn't appeal to me. I've already done it. I don't feel up to doing it again. If anything, i'd do an alt on the Alliance side to see the content that i haven't seen yet.

I think I'll schedule ZG on Sunday, Noon-4 this time. We'll see if we get a response from that.

Now, this i can do!:cool:

[nonsense]

My concern, and what I've seen happen in the past, is this: We wait, and we get more people reaching 60, but in the meantime the people who were at 60 have moved on to other games. Because they don't want to play alts, and don't much care for it, and have done what they can do with five or even ten people at a time.

I have no idea what happened to Harsh Grim Con/Venilin, but I have a feeling this may be part of it.


To some extent, this may be inevitable. While I'm sure most of us in Blacksky want to experience the end-game content at some point, the amount of time we're willing to take to get there varies drastically. Some people may wish to join a raiding guild, or a PVP-heavy guild, or what have you. I don't think that's something we should take personally - not everybody's tastes align, after all.


People must be entertained or they will, understandably, go elsewhere. I feel it is my job as GM to help with this entertainment, at least as far as Blacksky goes.


I think you may be taking too much on yourself. I think I speak for everyone in the guild when I say how appreciative I am of the hours you spend trying to get Blacksky into the raid circuit, doing the guild's banking and everything else you handle specifically to keep this awesome guild running.

You ARE helping with everybody's entertainment to a great extent, but there's only so much one person can do. I'd hate to see you get worn down by something that should be fun for you. :(

[IceShadow]

If I come up with a set of rules for our raids, people on this forum will be more than happy to critique them before I post them on our raiding forum, yes?

[eskatonic]

Make sense?

In that I understand your point of view now, yes, it does!

As a policy decision for raiding, no, it doesn't! At least, not to me. But that's one of the reasons I'd rather set myself on fire than lead a raid. Personally, I think you're nuts. God bless ya. ;)

As has been discussed, as a Raid Leader, you already have a LOT on your plate. Do you really want to be inundated with /tells that "So-and-so is being a big meanie! Blackbraid, Cherry-Eater is touching me again! Make her stooooop!!!" while also trying to organize the next attack and herd all the cats?

It probably won't be an issue any longer once, as has been discussed, the wrinkles have been ironed out, and the raiding chaff is separated from the wheat. In the meantime, I should probably stay away from proto-raid groups, as I don't have the patience to group with socially challenged folks.

eskatonic

p.s. - I griped about the "that's totally gay!" comments in guildchat precisely because I knew it was behavior that would not be tolerated in our guild. It wouldn't have been appropriate in raid chat, no. Sometimes using guildchat to make "side comments" to your buddies while you're enduring the torture of a pick-up group (or raid group!) can be VERY cathartic.

Another reason I'm happy to be in Blacksky, teh most r0xx0rzist guild evar!

[eskatonic]

If I come up with a set of rules for our raids, people on this forum will be more than happy to critique them before I post them on our raiding forum, yes?

Oh, indeed!

:D

[Tylorva]

Count me in on that--eaerlier raid times turn out to work as well or better for me.

Earlier raids are not good for me. I won't be able to make it. :-(

[IceShadow]

In that I understand your point of view now, yes, it does!

As a policy decision for raiding, no, it doesn't! At least, not to me. But that's one of the reasons I'd rather set myself on fire than lead a raid. Personally, I think you're nuts. God bless ya. ;)

As has been discussed, as a Raid Leader, you already have a LOT on your plate. Do you really want to be inundated with /tells that "So-and-so is being a big meanie! Blackbraid, Cherry-Eater is touching me again! Make her stooooop!!!" while also trying to organize the next attack and herd all the cats?
The other option is to have very competent people quit raiding with us because their (perhaps valid) complaints offend other GMs, and they'd rather stop raiding with us then back down from their complaints.

If they're coming through me, then I A) have a chance to see what's going on, and B) will be the sole source of correction, and an authority figure to look up to instead of having a peer try and correct you.

It'll take longer, and we'll have to pause while I sort things out, but at least things'll get done and any hard feelings will just be by people who needed to be corrected, instead of thinking someone that raids hates X class.
It probably won't be an issue any longer once, as has been discussed, the wrinkles have been ironed out, and the raiding chaff is separated from the wheat. In the meantime, I should probably stay away from proto-raid groups, as I don't have the patience to group with socially challenged folks.

eskatonic
Indeed, things will stop slowing down once people get into their heads what behaviors, both in the play of the game and in the chat/social aspects of the game, are expected or not tolerated. And then the people who can't handle that aren't with our raids anymore.
p.s. - I griped about the "that's totally gay!" comments in guildchat precisely because I knew it was behavior that would not be tolerated in our guild. It wouldn't have been appropriate in raid chat, no. Sometimes using guildchat to make "side comments" to your buddies while you're enduring the torture of a pick-up group (or raid group!) can be VERY cathartic.

Another reason I'm happy to be in Blacksky, teh most r0xx0rzist guild evar!
I think you and I are of differing opinions on why it shouldn't go in raidchat. I think it shouldn't be tolerated period, and our rules will reflect that. If it's part of people's unintentional speech, and they can't stop themselves from using homophobic or racist slangs, then they shouldn't use their mic on Vent.

I didn't want it in raid chat because it would've been a distraction for the entire raid that only a couple of people had to deal with. :)

[Sixten]

As has been discussed, as a Raid Leader, you already have a LOT on your plate. Do you really want to be inundated with /tells that "So-and-so is being a big meanie! Blackbraid, Cherry-Eater is touching me again! Make her stooooop!!!" while also trying to organize the next attack and herd all the cats?You know, one of the best pieces of wedding-organizing advice I read was a recommendation that the Happy Couple find some other person to appoint as the hardass. They have so much other crap to worry about without needing to be responsible for making sure that Uncle Elb doesn't hit the schnapps too hard, or the florists for the other wedding try to barge in and set up early, etc.

I wonder if such a thing might not be a good idea for raids. Let the raid leader deal with the actual mechanics of the raid (which are already plenty of work). Appoint someone as the enforcer/majordomo/head cracker, and delegate all of the interpersonal catherding to them. Make it very clear that not getting the answer one wants from mommy does not make it okay to pester daddy: the first officer's word is as binding as the raid leader.

Would that work? Would that take some of the load off?

[IceShadow]

It absolutely would.

And I might have Sav do the coordinating tonight while I be the headcracker, to be honest. She's been in MC, and I never have.

[Tylorva]

It absolutely would.

And I might have Sav do the coordinating tonight while I be the headcracker, to be honest. She's been in MC, and I never have.

I was planning to anyway. :D

Stick me in charge. I'll get them moving.

And I'll say 'whilst' a lot as well. :cool:

[IceShadow]

You might have to type the whole time instead of speaking, though. :(

[Sixten]

And I'll say 'whilst' a lot as well.We really need to get that word (back?) into American English. And get people to admit that a second person plural pronoun is really handy, and to please STFU and embrace "y'all". :)

[IceShadow]

Speaking of, Sav, start inviting people into the raid whenever you want. I'll take over when I get home in 10-15 mins.

[Jigglypuff]

If I come up with a set of rules for our raids, people on this forum will be more than happy to critique them before I post them on our raiding forum, yes?

Sure I can come up with something to complain with everything. Then again if you know me I find a lot of things to complain about, but it doesn't mean I'm not happy =)

Anyway I will say Blacksky has the least ammount of Drama I've ever seen in a guild. I have yet to witness a complaint over loot in any instance or raid I've been in. Yeah we've had some bad runs (Scholo comes to mind :D ) but I felt(Between the group not just me) no ill will toward anyone after.

I don't think I'd ever touch a PUG for anything I could presuade 4 of you guys to go to =)

[Joe]

No worries, though. I have no plans to blow $25 sight-unseen. Once they open up character transfers, I'll take a more thorough look at things and probably get ahold of you in-game to talk about it. :)


Wow, turns out that Feathermoon opened up for transfers, uh, today. :o

[CrazyIvan]

I'll look them over, and also do my best to clairify any CCRA-type questions, although I'm just a member, not an officer by any stretch.

[Champion Blue]

I hope you guys get this all sorted out. I know that no matter what Iceshadow will give it everything he's capable of to make it work. That's why he's such a good leader. I'd promise to come back and powerlevel up to help you raid, but I'd never be able to commit to a regular raid schedule. So I won't. I'll just wish you guys and gals all the luck in the world.

Edit: http://www.azergarde.com/portal.php Webpage of a guild I was in a year ago. They weren't that mature and friendly, but they were and still are good at raiding. Maybe there is something there you can use.

[JustJo]

Good luck with it.

As you see, the real issue with raiding is not how well everyone is equipped and skilled, it's getting at least 20 people who actually seriously want to raid and are willing to be a bit disciplined about it on at the same time (the other 20 can be slacking a bit but you do need a core who are as dedicated as you are).

Question is how to find these people. Chances are that if you are frustrated with raiding possibilities on your faction and server, other people are also. You just need to find them and offer them a place on your raid. If they aren't in your current guild or alliance, then maybe it means casting the net wider. Maybe it means inviting people to your guild or alliance purely because they want to raid (and you can stand them :) ). Or find a raiding guild/ alliance and join them instead.

If it helps, these are our rules (he doesn't really fine people for being late, I think he just wrote that in a pissy mood but it did do the trick):
http://www.kiraly-art.hr/newdawn/viewtopic.php?t=175

[D. Archon]

If you fail to inform me, and fail to show up, the only way you can buy yourself out is to donate materials for three Field Repair Bots

I could handle that.:cool:
EDIT: Fixed quote tags

[Peter LaCara]

PLEASE don't quit!

Damnit. Now I really am thinking of bringing my priest over. She has most of her tier 0 by now (two sets, actually.... Dreadmist AND Devout). I'd keep leveling up Hellforge because I really enjoy playing him, but I'd bust her out for raids when the time came.

Stick with it. A raid has about 10 times the awesome as a 5-man dungeon, but about 10 times the frustration as well if things go south.

[IceShadow]

Well, we didn't get to any bosses, but we did a pretty good job until people started losing focus after a few wipes.

I'm going to need to set up some more definitive rules on things like chatter in the raid channel, and being on time, though. So I'll post some ideas for rules later today/tonight.

[Tylorva]

I think with a bit more focus, we should get to Lucifron fairly quickly next time.

It was a very good first attempt. And two epics! Grats to Jhest! :)

[IceShadow]

...and one of the people who raided with us put his core leather on the AH, not realizing it was bad form, and us having forgot to tell people they can't sell these things on the AH. And was summarilly reamed a new one by Radaan.

*sigh*

[Topher]

...and one of the people who raided with us put his core leather on the AH, not realizing it was bad form, and us having forgot to tell people they can't sell these things on the AH. And was summarilly reamed a new one by Radaan.

*sigh*

Is this some weird raider etiquette thing I've never heard of? I mean...if you get a drop, whose business is it what you do with it?

Topher

[Peter LaCara]

Is this some weird raider etiquette thing I've never heard of? I mean...if you get a drop, whose business is it what you do with it?

Topher
Stuff like Core Leather is different, since it's so hard to get, and it makes items that would make the guild much stronger in the Core. Why would you sell the leather to an unknown person, rather than keep it in the guild and make your guild stronger? A stronger guild means that the guild is more likely to drop bosses in MC, which means better loot for everyone. By selling off the Leather on the AH, you are hurting your guild as a whole.

It's just a dumb thing to do.

[D. Archon]

There's that. There's also the whole "Well, if all you're going to do is auction it anyway, why didn't you let someone in the guild/alliance who could actually use it have it?" feeling. it sort of remind people of ninja-ing things.

[eskatonic]

There's that. There's also the whole "Well, if all you're going to do is auction it anyway, why didn't you let someone in the guild/alliance who could actually use it have it?" feeling. it sort of remind people of ninja-ing things.

But there are certainly instances where this is ok.

For example, while we were in an instance, The Hand of Edward the Odd, an Epic Mace, dropped. It is a MUCH better weapon than what Moonshade had, but someone else won the roll. Since this mace sells for 1300+ Gold, it made more sense for them to sell it than to hand it over to another Guildie, even if they could have used it.

1300 GP > a few extra DPS.

The winner was sweet enough to offer me the mace, but accepting it would have been the equivalent of taking their chance at an Epic Mount away. :D

eskatonic

[CrazyIvan]

Is this some weird raider etiquette thing I've never heard of? I mean...if you get a drop, whose business is it what you do with it?

Topher

Argument being that something that drops in-raid, which is useful for making the raid better as a whole (via say, crafting FR gear) trumps one person's profit margin. Generally speaking, CCRA banks basically all of that stuff, except for the Dark Iron, which is mined by a designated person for the purpose of getting TB rep (which, in turn, is used to churn out FR goods for the rest of us).

[D. Archon]

But there are certainly instances where this is ok.

For example, while we were in an instance, The Hand of Edward the Odd, an Epic Mace, dropped. It is a MUCH better weapon than what Moonshade had, but someone else won the roll. Since this mace sells for 1300+ Gold, it made more sense for them to sell it than to hand it over to another Guildie, even if they could have used it.

1300 GP > a few extra DPS.

The winner was sweet enough to offer me the mace, but accepting it would have been the equivalent of taking their chance at an Epic Mount away. :D

eskatonic

Yeah, I was there.:D

[Plume]

Is this some weird raider etiquette thing I've never heard of? I mean...if you get a drop, whose business is it what you do with it?

It's one of those things that doesn't really come up until raiding. There's important gear--some of it absolutely necessary for success at key encounters--that requires a lot of stuff harvested only in raid instances, and more of it all the time. Hence the etiquette that the stuff that can be used in making those items should first of all be used in ways that strengthen the raiders as a whole, and sold off only if the internal needs are met.

[Topher]

Interesting!

Yet more evidence that raiding is Not For Me. ^_^ I've had more than enough practice being a cog in the corporate clockworks in real life, I don't need to experience it in my fantasy too.

Topher

[IceShadow]

Some of us enjoy being part of a living, thriving community focused at a single goal (or several singular goals if you're raiding several places at a time). Comparing that to being in a corporation isn't exactly fair.

[eskatonic]

Yeah, I was there.:D

I cry myself to sleep every night thinking about it.

;)

[Professor Phobos]

Interesting!

Yet more evidence that raiding is Not For Me. ^_^ I've had more than enough practice being a cog in the corporate clockworks in real life, I don't need to experience it in my fantasy too.


Well, genuinely speaking, if you've got a good guild that raids, you want to help out your fellows. And the profit margin on being helped in return is usually greater than one Core Leather...

[IceShadow]

I think what we're going to do is assign the materials to specific tradesmen who will make them. We didn't have a system set in place, so we just rolled randomly...so to be honest, I can't fault him for not knowing not to put them on the AH.

In the future it's going to be pretty ironclad, though.

[Elizabeth Brooks]

Is this some weird raider etiquette thing I've never heard of? I mean...if you get a drop, whose business is it what you do with it?

Topher

I'd never ever sell core leather. That stuff is just too valuable when you can use it.

[TRavenson]

...and one of the people who raided with us put his core leather on the AH, not realizing it was bad form, and us having forgot to tell people they can't sell these things on the AH. And was summarilly reamed a new one by Radaan.

*sigh*

And this is why I will not be raiding again. My experiences have ranged from good [Guildies only] to Annoying as Fuck [Last 2 raids]. It's just not fun, no matter how much I would like to see the content, the system is not setup for a casual raider & that's what I am at best.

And in defense of Topher's comment about being a cog, he's at least partially correct in the whole feel of raiding at times. Some people like, others don't. Fact of life.

[Elizabeth Brooks]

The reaming should not have happened, no matter what.

[IceShadow]

And again, I'm at a point of frustration.

Two weeks ago, I did MC signups, and got 21 people signed up. Only 14 showed.

Last night, I had another signup, and only got 20 people signed up, and 18 showed.

We have two other guilds in our alliance who are pretty firmly with us. One has 42 level 60's, the other has 22. We have 24. I realize some of those are multiple toons on the same account, or people who aren't interested in raiding, or people who just can't go on a Saturday night, but that's a LARGE pool (in addition to the 10+ 60's from various guilds who tag along with us). I don't want to keep trying to bring more and more guilds in...we have, in addition to the two main ones, three or four sattelite guilds who are just having some of their interested players join us, but it's still not enough. I mean, that's a pool of well over 100 characters, and we can't get more than 20 signups?

I don't know what to do, and it's really frustrating me.

[Plume]

What you're looking at is a classic tension between "what I'd like, in some sense" and "what I'ma ctually willing to work at." I would ugess that a lot of the folks who could join but don't are waiting for the chance to join a group that is already regularly clearing Core stuff--and it's not like I blame them, really, trailblazing is not all that fun sometimes. But I suggest that you've now got enough evidence on which to make some fairly informed judgments. I know that you want to master the Core. So do I. But since your best efforts at organizing it right now clearly aren't working, maybe it's worth looking at stuff we can do.

Our best performance so far is certainly Zul'Gurub. I suggest aiming for this at least once each week. Being able to say "We have ZG on farm status" would be good for all of our morale, and also likely a good recruiting tool. Furthermore, we can pretty reliably get 20 people. (If we were to reliably get 25-30, the overflow could do Dire Maul West or UBRS or whatever.)

I've been talking with folks in the Alliance alliance I'm in, and opinion about the comparative difficulty of AQ20 and ZG varies. AQ20 feels harder to me, but people I respect disagree. On weeks we didn't do a second ZG run, we could have a night of raid-scale rep farming to get folks to friendly, then try more with AQ20.

Finally, we may want to think in a serious way about being able to do an Onyxia raid at the end of August. It's a hell of a lot of people to get through the quest chain, but then we have the folks availalbe, and downing Onyxia would again be both good PR and good for our sense of self.

My intuition is that if we were to put the Core on the back burner for one month and see what else we could fill up August with, we'd actually come out ahead.

[Jigglypuff]

And again, I'm at a point of frustration.

Two weeks ago, I did MC signups, and got 21 people signed up. Only 14 showed.

Last night, I had another signup, and only got 20 people signed up, and 18 showed.

We have two other guilds in our alliance who are pretty firmly with us. One has 42 level 60's, the other has 22. We have 24. I realize some of those are multiple toons on the same account, or people who aren't interested in raiding, or people who just can't go on a Saturday night, but that's a LARGE pool (in addition to the 10+ 60's from various guilds who tag along with us). I don't want to keep trying to bring more and more guilds in...we have, in addition to the two main ones, three or four sattelite guilds who are just having some of their interested players join us, but it's still not enough. I mean, that's a pool of well over 100 characters, and we can't get more than 20 signups?

I don't know what to do, and it's really frustrating me.

Well I don't really no what to say. All the people that I've raid with from the alliance seem like decent people. We worked together well in the three or 4 times I was in ZG with you guys. Not sure what the problem going from a 20 to 40man raid that's different (other then getting 20 extra). When you first set up the alliance I figured people would be jumping at the chance to go to MC?

After thinking a bit maybe it's a time issue?? You do set it up for 6hr blocks maybe that's too much for some? Granted that guy we were in UBRS did say he was on for 23hrs straight the other day!

The only suggestion I can come up with that you might want to do is put a thread on your forum about MC.. Maybe you could ask people why they aren't signing up? Ask if they'd like different times, different days. Another thing today showed me is that people don't think they're well enough equiped for MC. We had three people in our UBRS from IA that thought they needed better gear. Sp maybe you could say that you don't need 600fr and 5k armor for a priest in MC :D

[Plume]

Another thing today showed me is that people don't think they're well enough equiped for MC. We had three people in our UBRS from IA that thought they needed better gear. Sp maybe you could say that you don't need 600fr and 5k armor for a priest in MC :D

This is a good point, and I suggest this for a quote, or quote fodder:

Say we added a boss to our list of kills each week--Lucifron on week 1, Lucifron and Magmadar on week 2, and so on. It would be more than a month before fire resistance on armor became a serious issue. That's not until the lava/fire packs, really, and those come after Lucifron and Magmadar and Gehennas and Garr at least, and maybe more depending on your route. In that month, folks would have lots of time to run instances for gear, farm materials, trade crafting, and so on. If you're set for the Upper Spire, you're set to start the Core.

[JustJo]

OK, so you don't have enough interested raiders. Or rather, you are really keen to raid but the majority of your guild/alliance aren't.


It's a miserable situation and will make you unhappier as time goes on. And the solutions that would make you happy are ones that you probably already know ;/

1/ Recruit more raiders. Might as well recruit them to your guild -- advertise in your realm specifically for people who want to raid and understand what that means. Offer them two raids a week (which you are doing now anyway) and a fixed raiding timetable. Understand that this might make your guild hate you (people who want to raid are often more hardcore in their general attitude).

1b/ Set up the raid as an in-guild thing and allow people from other guilds to come along as allies. Make it clear that you are in charge, it isn't an alliance of equals. It's YOUR raid. Rant at the others in the forums about why you had to do this. Play hardball and demand discipline in terms of attendance, giving you notice if they can't attend, turning up on time, etc. If they want the raids, then they play by your rules, but you will treat them fair. Offer spots in /your/ raid to people from other guilds also, tell them there is an attendance requirement to become a core raid member.

2/ Leave your guild and set up a raiding guild. Recruit the people from your current raid who you think will want to come. Recruit more people to make the numbers up.

3/ Leave your guild and join a raiding guild.

4/ Drop your raiding group and join another raiding group, without leaving guilds.


I'm sorry that sounds bad ... it's just one of the huge problems in WoW. The people who want to raid a lot really want to do that. The people who don't just won't want to do it as badly as you do. You need a core group of people who share your attitude to make it work.

[IceShadow]

First of all, there's no other raiding guilds on the server that I'd want to join or would let me join. They're not the kind of guilds I'd want to run with.

And I don't think Blacksky would be happy if I left, not to mention the other people in it that are interested in raiding.

[JustJo]

And I don't think Blacksky would be happy if I left, not to mention the other people in it that are interested in raiding.


I know ;/ But how long will you want to play if you can't raid?

[D. Archon]

As the person who probably has the title of "Most Casual Raider" in the alliance, i'd like to make a few comments.

At this stage, i like raiding. I even had fun on my last trip into ZG where we didn't kill any bosses, and we were fighting Mar'li. I went in there with the expectation that we wouldn't beat the spider boss, but with the hope that we could. I'm not complaining.:)

Anyway, like i said, i'm enjoying raiding a lot. So why am i so damn casual about it?

It's really simple. Besides the fact that i don't want it to become a second full-time job for me, it is summer. I thought about hitting up the board for the MC raid on Saturday, but didn't because i wanted to go outside and enjoy the summer. Come fall and winter, i'll probably be inclined to sign up for more raids on weekends.

Maybe it's the same for a lot of other people, i dunno. I can't speak for them.

Could be stuff like Plume said, people are afraid to go through the learning stages and just want to tag along when they can be assured they won't get wiped a dozen times while learning something; Tourists, in other words.

Maybe people are afraid that there'll be a lot of shouting and ranting over Vent and "50 DKP minus" when they come along with us (god, i would have quit that guild faster than you can blink).

Maybe people are afraid that they will be expected to pour 40+ hours of their life into raiding.

See, raiding has kind of a bad rep because of the hardcore guilds.

I understand that you want to see new content, Iceshadow. I'm totally the same way. I love to see new stuff, do new things.

Right now, i'm happy with the setup; "if you want to come along, sign up and show up, we have some rules because they need to be there, and don't be a dipshit. If you don't want to come along, that's cool too."

Please don't take this next paragraph the wrong way, it's meant to be constructive. :)

Honestly, complaining that you can't get 40 people to show up for a MC raid isn't helping (no-shows are a different story, and i'm not addressing that here). Maybe you need to put positive spin on what the alliance is about, how the alliance goes about raiding ("We're not gigantic wangs about it!") and so on to alleviate people's potential concerns, rather than "Blackbraid says he wants to do this".

Ok, constructive bit over.

Like Jigglypuff says, there could be an issue with people not feeling they're well enough equipped; i know i was (and still am, a little bit) afraid of that, but after inspecting some of the other mages in ZG the other day, i've got better gear than they do, for the most part, and i've been improving it since :D.

[Jigglypuff]

A bunch or words then this was said ("We're not gigantic wangs about it!")

Seriously though I only cut the quote down to save space..

What you wrote are some of the wisest words I've heard in a long time (the whole post not just what I left in quote). :D

BTW Smashing the bloodlord was one of my fav days in wow!

[IceShadow]

Honestly, complaining that you can't get 40 people to show up for a MC raid isn't helping (no-shows are a different story, and i'm not addressing that here). Maybe you need to put positive spin on what the alliance is about, how the alliance goes about raiding ("We're not gigantic wangs about it!") and so on to alleviate people's potential concerns, rather than "Blackbraid says he wants to do this".
Oh, the main purpose of this thread is for me to whinge a little so as to vent some steam, and go right back to it. (The secondary purpose is to say, "What am I doing wrong?" and then listen to the advice.)

I'm not going to stop the MC signups. If people don't sign up, and we only get 20, we'll go to AQ20 or ZG if the server reset day doesn't interfere with it (and since it's a Saturday, and Tues and Wed are our ZG days, it never should). Eventually, the problem should, theoretically, take care of itself as we get more people interested in raiding (so long as we don't lose people in the process, which is something of a worry for me).

I found out that the HA/CR guilds are going to do MC <i>once a month</i>. I'm trying to talk the cooler players in HA into raiding with us if they're not raiding with CR, which would give us a lot more players.

(I find it ironic that the guild with the name most appropriate for an RPG.net guild to run with, Cthulhu Rising, is headed by one of the most elitist, jerkish people I've ever met. When I first proposed a guild alliance, her response was to try and find excuses NOT to do it, including things like, "I assume you have UBRS on farm, then?" and, "You have your full tier 0 set, I assume?" No, we don't, because we WANT AN ALLIANCE, and tier 0 sucks for tanking, TYVM. :mad: )

[CrazyIvan]

Interesting!

Yet more evidence that raiding is Not For Me. ^_^ I've had more than enough practice being a cog in the corporate clockworks in real life, I don't need to experience it in my fantasy too.

Topher

Of course the end result of this is the Druid leader logging on one day, and handing us all one of the nicer cloaks in the game (Onyxia Scale Cloak) and epic Corehound Belts, made out of mats in the guild bank.

Mats no one person could ever reasonably expect to accumulate.

[CrazyIvan]

Suggestion:

Stop looking for guilds, start looking for players.

Our raiding alliance has two prominant guilds making up alot of its membership. And then a metric ton of people who are in small guilds for one reason or another.

Our guild can only really reasonably run ZG/AQ, we don't have enough members for Molten Core. So our guildmates are in...last count 4 different raiding alliances. The majority of the "hardcore raiding badasses" are in one, alot of interested, dedicated people in another, and then two casual groups as well.

As a player, if "the guild" is doing something, I expect alot of work to be done by officers and the like. If *I* am doing something, I read strategies, check the website etc.

And as a personal preference, I dislike "We're running MC! Oh, 20 people, we're running ZG!". They are different instances that require different consumables, mindsets, time frames and appropriate snacks. It also drains morale to have to "drop down" all the time. If all you can manage right now is ZG, schedule ZG. Then schedule setups, things like MC/BWL/Ony attunement help and the like, so when you get 40, the pieces are in place.

[IceShadow]

And as a personal preference, I dislike "We're running MC! Oh, 20 people, we're running ZG!". They are different instances that require different consumables, mindsets, time frames and appropriate snacks. It also drains morale to have to "drop down" all the time. If all you can manage right now is ZG, schedule ZG. Then schedule setups, things like MC/BWL/Ony attunement help and the like, so when you get 40, the pieces are in place.
The thing is, we HAVE 40 people. Looking at our DKP totals, I'm seeing something like 80-100 people who've raided with us at least once, and I -know- from personal experience that we have a lot of people in other guilds who want to raid and just aren't signing up.

If we're not ready for MC now, I don't know how to make us more so.

[CrazyIvan]

The thing is, we HAVE 40 people. Looking at our DKP totals, I'm seeing something like 80-100 people who've raided with us at least once, and I -know- from personal experience that we have a lot of people in other guilds who want to raid and just aren't signing up.

If we're not ready for MC now, I don't know how to make us more so.

You clearly don't have 40 people ready, able and willing to raid with you on a consistant, weekly basis.

You need "More". More depends on the players you find. There is not a magic number.

[IceShadow]

You clearly don't have 40 people ready, able and willing to raid with you on a consistant, weekly basis.

You need "More". More depends on the players you find. There is not a magic number.
Well, no, but what I'm saying is that the only way I'll know that I have 40 people is to actually put up a signup and have 40 people show. Other than that, I have no way of gauging interest. How else am I supposed to know that we have 40 people willing to go?

[Plume]

Of course the end result of this is the Druid leader logging on one day, and handing us all one of the nicer cloaks in the game (Onyxia Scale Cloak) and epic Corehound Belts, made out of mats in the guild bank.

Mats no one person could ever reasonably expect to accumulate.

Not quite as flashy as that, but...just before our raid launched at Majordomo and Ragnaros (we cleared the rest on Friday), the warrior leader was asking around who had dark iron helms. My warrior didn't. I said, "I don't," and was about to add, "oh, I'd been meaning to ask about the guild bank, since I've got enough dark iron on hand that I could make the helm if I had the cores..." only to find him opening a trade window and handing me a dark iron helm. With buffs, fire resistance 270, bay-bee.

[IceShadow]

You know, there is another option.

Those of us who are interested in raiding could join other guilds who are planning on/already are raiding. Either as one body, or we could find our own guilds.

Obviously this would strip Blacksky of a lot of 60's, but really, what do we need to be in a guild for other than the /rpgnet channel? It's not like the guild bank would be rendered inoperable, people could still send things to it...and we don't use the guild chat channel for a lot of things.

My biggest deterent to this right now is that I only know of two guilds running 40-man dungeons right now, Blacklisted and Anomoly Faction, both of which are NOT guilds I'm interested in doing anything with. But there's other options, too, some of which might be more mature.

Something to consider. I don't want to hit a wall and be unable to proceed, because down that road lies stagnation and decay of my interest in the game.

[Spectrum]

You know, there is another option.

Those of us who are interested in raiding could join other guilds who are planning on/already are raiding. Either as one body, or we could find our own guilds.

Obviously this would strip Blacksky of a lot of 60's, but really, what do we need to be in a guild for other than the /rpgnet channel? It's not like the guild bank would be rendered inoperable, people could still send things to it...and we don't use the guild chat channel for a lot of things.

My biggest deterent to this right now is that I only know of two guilds running 40-man dungeons right now, Blacklisted and Anomoly Faction, both of which are NOT guilds I'm interested in doing anything with. But there's other options, too, some of which might be more mature.

Something to consider. I don't want to hit a wall and be unable to proceed, because down that road lies stagnation and decay of my interest in the game.
I would caution you to think very hard about this and ask how your members feel (which you're doing right now). My guild did this in WoW and it caused alot of bad blood between the 60's (who got into the main guild) and the sub-60's (who got sent to the farm guild) because, for whatever reason, I've never seen a chat channel used effectively or very often. The sub-60's tend to feel like they're getting cut off until they can play with the big boys while the 60's can be very much 'out of sight, out of mind'.

Plus, well, other guilds tend to be full of asshats anyway, so I question how much success you would have.

[IceShadow]

I would caution you to think very hard about this and ask how your members feel (which you're doing right now). My guild did this in WoW and it caused alot of bad blood between the 60's (who got into the main guild) and the sub-60's (who got sent to the farm guild) because, for whatever reason, I've never seen a chat channel used effectively or very often. The sub-60's tend to feel like they're getting cut off until they can play with the big boys while the 60's can be very much 'out of sight, out of mind'.

Plus, well, other guilds tend to be full of asshats anyway, so I question how much success you would have.
We use the chat channel all the time. We pretty much never use the guild channel (it's supposed to be IC) except to link items, and we have other people in other guilds who use our chat channel to talk to us (friends we've made on the server, or people who just happen to be in other guilds).

As to the second...that's true. Which as I mention is why I haven't brought the idea up before now...there weren't any guilds worth considering doing this for. Now I may have found one, and I'll talk to him tonight (hopefully he could just let us raid with them even if we're in our own guild, but I don't know if he'll let us do that).

But if my choices are to take my chance with a guild that could be full of asshats, or to quit playing...

[JustJo]

<vibes>

It may be your best way to be in a guild with a lot of people who want the same things you do.

I've been in a guild where the GM left to join a raiding guild. It smarted a bit, but we understood they wanted something they couldn't get where they were. I've also been in the situation where I left my guild to join a raiding guild. I'd tried to help organise ZG runs but it was clear that although people seemed to enjoy them when we went, they'd have been just as happy RPing in the park. It wasn't important to them the way it was to me.


Good luck whatever you decide. I hope you find what you're looking for.

[D. Archon]

There is a third option, Iceshadow:

Start your own raiding guild instead of leaving for Blacklisted or AF and being a pissant cog in their meatbag machine. That way, the only asshats you get are the ones you let in.

If those are the only two major raiding guilds on Kirin Tor, then there is definitely room for a third, one that also isn't full of jackasses.

[Jigglypuff]

You know, there is another option.

Those of us who are interested in raiding could join other guilds who are planning on/already are raiding. Either as one body, or we could find our own guilds.

Obviously this would strip Blacksky of a lot of 60's, but really, what do we need to be in a guild for other than the /rpgnet channel? It's not like the guild bank would be rendered inoperable, people could still send things to it...and we don't use the guild chat channel for a lot of things.
I'm not sure what I'd do if that would happen. I think some people who are working their way up might be fustrated since all their hard work was for nothing. Sadly it also reminds me of guild hopping from EQ which I really really dislike. Where somepeople would use a guild for all it could do then move on to another, and another. Granted wow eases this a bit as there aren't many flags that require raids to get. Part of me says I'd stick it out till the end but once people get into their other guilds even if we do have the chat channel they will be off doing other things. Then again It might take all the momentum out of me and I may just quit.

My biggest deterent to this right now is that I only know of two guilds running 40-man dungeons right now, Blacklisted and Anomoly Faction, both of which are NOT guilds I'm interested in doing anything with. But there's other options, too, some of which might be more mature.

Something to consider. I don't want to hit a wall and be unable to proceed, because down that road lies stagnation and decay of my interest in the game.

After last night (combined with other encounters) I wouldn't give blacklisted the time of day. One reason why I like Blacksky is because you don't force me to do anything. I've been in guilds where I'm forced to raid anytime a raid target we were interested in was up. When expansions came out it was get one or two levels a week (depending on how hard they were) or get out. I know at least three guilds on my old EQ server (Drinal) that still employ these rules. It comes to the point where I asked myself if I have to play this game like a job to be high end then high end is not for me.

[IceShadow]

There is a third option, Iceshadow:

Start your own raiding guild instead of leaving for Blacklisted or AF and being a pissant cog in their meatbag machine. That way, the only asshats you get are the ones you let in.

If those are the only two major raiding guilds on Kirin Tor, then there is definitely room for a third, one that also isn't full of jackasses.
There may be another option, and I'm going to look into it when I have a chance.

[Jigglypuff]

There is a third option, Iceshadow:

Start your own raiding guild instead of leaving for Blacklisted or AF and being a pissant cog in their meatbag machine. That way, the only asshats you get are the ones you let in.

If those are the only two major raiding guilds on Kirin Tor, then there is definitely room for a third, one that also isn't full of jackasses.

Or start recruiting people to Blacksky that want to raid.. there has to be a bunch there that aren't idiots. :D

[Des]

There is a third option, Iceshadow:

Start your own raiding guild instead of leaving for Blacklisted or AF and being a pissant cog in their meatbag machine. That way, the only asshats you get are the ones you let in.

If those are the only two major raiding guilds on Kirin Tor, then there is definitely room for a third, one that also isn't full of jackasses.

Hordeside on a RP server? I dunno. I'm on one of the higher pop PVE servers hordeside, and even there there's really only 3 major raiding guilds, maybe another half dozen casuals that are working through MC slowly. Might be room, but it could be tricky.

Of course the other problem is that in starting your own raiding guild, you'll have to let in a lot of people if you want to start 40 manning stuff soon. You'll probably have to deal with the asshat weeding at the onset for a while.

[IceShadow]

Or start recruiting people to Blacksky that want to raid.. there has to be a bunch there that aren't idiots. :D
Most of the ones I'd be at all interested in recruiting are firmly entrenched in their own guilds. They feel very committed to them, which is one of the things I'd look for, but that means they aren't switching.

My guess is that they'll eventually just quit the game, since they're in the same situation I am. And convincing them that joining us is a better option would be a LOT of work for each individual.

[Spectrum]

Send in double agents to your rival guilds and cause them to self-destruct through drama, then pick up the pieces and cherry pick the people you want.

(I kid! I kid!)

[Jigglypuff]

Most of the ones I'd be at all interested in recruiting are firmly entrenched in their own guilds. They feel very committed to them, which is one of the things I'd look for, but that means they aren't switching.

My guess is that they'll eventually just quit the game, since they're in the same situation I am. And convincing them that joining us is a better option would be a LOT of work for each individual.

I feel the same way about Blacksky, rocket boots used to try and get me to join once a week in the bgs (i'm guessing they asked theo too). Yet still I feel as I'm advancing my character(s). Even if I roll (yes dice and me never get along even in Real life) terriblly in ZG and haven't won anything :p

Anyway I can't tell you what to do, I also don't like to tell people what to do. But you are a darn good leader even if you have trouble getting people to sign up for things. If CR is the guild you're asking to join or help us I can say I only know "murphy" the orc hunter from them and not many other.

For me no matter what happens I at least want to see what the expansion brings. I have no problem gimping encounters from past expansions because history says and MMO will put an item you need from raid zones of past that you'll need in the expansion. :D

[IceShadow]

I'm not sure what I'd do if that would happen. I think some people who are working their way up might be fustrated since all their hard work was for nothing. Sadly it also reminds me of guild hopping from EQ which I really really dislike. Where somepeople would use a guild for all it could do then move on to another, and another. Granted wow eases this a bit as there aren't many flags that require raids to get. Part of me says I'd stick it out till the end but once people get into their other guilds even if we do have the chat channel they will be off doing other things. Then again It might take all the momentum out of me and I may just quit.
People are off doing other things right now.

We have the /rpgnet channel and more importantly, we all come from the same forum. My only requirement for joining Blacksky was that you have some method of getting infromation from this forum. We schedule runs here all the time, and if we do any RP events, we schedule them through here, too. I don't see how it would matter what guild we end up joining, so long as we all support each other. WoW doesn't have any bonuses for guilds at all, except a chat channel and friends list. We add our own guild bank to the equasion, but it's not like we couldn't have that even if everyone wasn't in the same "guild."

If I do this (and it is by no means a certainty, or even probable, just something I'm considering and looking into), it would be a guild that A) has our same level of maturity and acceptance of all methods of play, and B) allows us to still interact with and have alts in Blacksky.
After last night (combined with other encounters) I wouldn't give blacklisted the time of day. One reason why I like Blacksky is because you don't force me to do anything. I've been in guilds where I'm forced to raid anytime a raid target we were interested in was up. When expansions came out it was get one or two levels a week (depending on how hard they were) or get out. I know at least three guilds on my old EQ server (Drinal) that still employ these rules. It comes to the point where I asked myself if I have to play this game like a job to be high end then high end is not for me.
Blacklisted and Anomoly Faction are both disqualified by A) above. And part of A) is that they understand that some players are more casual than others.

I don't want to leave people who want to casually raid behind.

But after last night, if I left some of the allied guilds behind, I wouldn't bat an eye.

[IceShadow]

Anyway I can't tell you what to do, I also don't like to tell people what to do. But you are a darn good leader even if you have trouble getting people to sign up for things. If CR is the guild you're asking to join or help us I can say I only know "murphy" the orc hunter from them and not many other.
It's not. CR is only doing MC once a month with HA. I want someone who wants to commit to, at the minimum, 4-6 hours a week in 40 man instances. On top of it, the leadership of CR has a very standoffish attitude in my dealings with them in the past, and for some reason took an unnatural dislike to me as I tried to put together a guild alliance that included them.

The guild I'm looking at right now is the Rainmakers. I don't run into them often, but their website seems to show that they have an attitude I'm looking for. We'll see when I talk to them.

[Jigglypuff]

But after last night, if I left some of the allied guilds behind, I wouldn't bat an eye.

I think last night we just rolled low on our intelligence, focus, and luck :D

[IceShadow]

I think last night we just rolled low on our intelligence, focus, and luck :D
We got the focus back from the time we fought Jek until before the Bloodlord.

The rest we just never had.

[D. Archon]

I think last night we just rolled low on our intelligence, focus, and luck :D

I know i failed a few "Hit the Correct Button" rolls at the start.

And i fully support the decision to never allow anyone from Blacklisted on another run with us.

Funny how things improved dramatically after some people were replaced, though.

[Plume]

Chief, it seems to me that there is right now a pretty clear "Blacksky culture" in place, and it obviously includes folks who have never been in the guild. Therefore, I think that if you were to feel it best for you as an individual to join with a good raiding guild, you would still be as much a part of the culture as you wanted to be.

If some guildies were to go elsewhere, I could see some sense in focusing the guild's effort on behalf of 60s at completing the dungeon sets (and the Dire Maul stuff)--basically, making those who'd like to raid well prepared for it, and those who don't intend to go further complete with these steps, decked out and snazzy. :-)

[IceShadow]

It's looking like I may have found a guild to run with that works well with us...and won't require me to leave Blacksky. I'm talking to him more...I might get us set up with him in his raids. They haven't started on MC yet, but have cleared ZG successfully. They have a closed-bidding DKP system like ours, with some other tweaks.

[Elizabeth Brooks]

Grooviness.

[Jigglypuff]

It's looking like I may have found a guild to run with that works well with us...and won't require me to leave Blacksky. I'm talking to him more...I might get us set up with him in his raids. They haven't started on MC yet, but have cleared ZG successfully. They have a closed-bidding DKP system like ours, with some other tweaks.

Sweet.. And what's wrong with your avatar.. It's a big black square now =)

Sorry I also didn't make the raid.. Things came up after the party so I missed it..

[IceShadow]

Sweet.. And what's wrong with your avatar.. It's a big black square now =)
It's my way of mourning tets.

[Deathstalker]

I may have some helpful suggestions for you.

First, some background: Our guild has MC on farm status since, I dunno... March? We're working on Nefarian in BWL and we've killed the Prophet Skeram in AQ40 twice so far. ZG and AQ20 are on farm status as well, with the unfortunate exception of Ossirian, who still likes to wipe us from time to time. We've three official raid nights per week, but spontaneous actions do happen all the time. Our guild is rather casual in some aspects (You can raid as little or as much as you want and we've shadow priests, feral druids, moonkin and melee shamans among our ranks), and quite hardcore in others (You either have enough runecloth bandages and all kinds of potions with you, or you don't raid with us!).

Second, the hints I promised: Each of our raids is lead by someone who explains boss strategies and gives orders during fights. Another player auctions off the loot and keeps track of the DKP-system via an in-game tool. Often, there is a third player who has the right to invite people to the raid and handles the group compositions. Main tanks and healers never fill those positions because they already have a demanding job to do. Therefore, our raid leaders are a rogue, two mages, two shamans and two hunters - people who can get away with not being concentrated on the enemy all the time. TeamSpeak can be used for idle conversations when fighting trash mobs or during buffing / rezzing, but communication discipline is expected to be kept during boss fights. You only hear stuff like "Tranq shot missed", "tank XY down, Z is taking over, keep him alive", or "the wyrmguard to the left has a weakness to Shadow".

Blizzard gave us those funny little icons with patch 1.11, so we use them. Every warrior has an icon assigned to him at the start of the raid, so he knows instantly which target he is supposed to tank. This also makes it easier to give orders ("Concentrate your fire on the green diamond next...") and keeps the raids running smoothly because we don't have to wait while targets are assigned.

These are our ground rules and I've to say they make guild raids a pleasant experience most of the time. :)

[CrazyIvan]

It's looking like I may have found a guild to run with that works well with us...and won't require me to leave Blacksky. I'm talking to him more...I might get us set up with him in his raids. They haven't started on MC yet, but have cleared ZG successfully. They have a closed-bidding DKP system like ours, with some other tweaks.

Before I jumped ship, this is the solution I had. I essentially was doing ride-alongs with a bigger guild.

[Elizabeth Brooks]

This strip about raiding Ragnaros is kind of cute. (http://www.worldofwar.net/comics/heroesofwow/chapter22/index.php)

[IceShadow]

Turns out they won't do MC at all until they've cleared AQ20, and no amount of talking is going to change their minds.

That means that A) there'd be no point in allying with them, since they'd still consider their own people to have priority in spots, and B) there's no reason to go join them, since MC is what I want to do.

So I'm back to square one, being frustrated and unable to do anything about it.

[Elizabeth Brooks]

So none of their 60s want to raid MC, possibly with you?

[IceShadow]

Their leadership doesn't, and I'm not going to send a whisper to each and everyone inviting them along. I'll ask if they want to broadcast the raiding forum, though.

[JustJo]

Post on their guild forums, inviting them to individually to join your raid to MC. Spin it like it's a great opportunity for them and they'd be mad to miss it.

Then once you have your raids up and running, poach the good ones to your guild.

[Seroster]

Post on their guild forums, inviting them to individually to join your raid to MC. Spin it like it's a great opportunity for them and they'd be mad to miss it.

Then once you have your raids up and running, poach the good ones to your guild.

Their guild leadership may not like the first, and they certainly won't like the second...

[JustJo]

Their guild leadership may not like the first, and they certainly won't like the second...

True.

What I'm describing here is how things were done on my server. Yes, there was drama. But ... the people who wanted to raid (from both guilds) ended up with a nice raid group in the end. The other guild /died/.

If you are looking at hard choices, that's one of them. Not saying it will necessarily end up the same way. Then again, the only reason I can think that a guild would want to finish AQ20 before venturing into MC (quite hard without the extra MC epics to help kit out the raid, I would think: ZG/AQ20 drops are nice but MC bosses drop 2-3 epics each guaranteed) is if they had enough people for a solid 20 man group and weren't interested in expanding. I can assure you, there WILL be people in that guild who want to know when they can go to MC ... just their current guild isn't giving them the opportunity.

[Darting Flea]

True.

What I'm describing here is how things were done on my server. Yes, there was drama. But ... the people who wanted to raid (from both guilds) ended up with a nice raid group in the end. The other guild /died/.

Thank you for reminding me why I hate raiding. Brings out the worst in people.