[WoW/Blacksky/P+W] PSA - Why everybody should PVP at least a little. [Archive]

nonsense

07-12-2006, 07:55 AM

Last night, Blacksky had a bit of a chat regarding PVP and what it can do for you. For those of us who are new to the game, here's a brief summary:

Fighting in the Battlegrounds gets you Honour, and Honour allows you to climb in rank with the Horde, but degrades over time if you don't keep PVPing. The early ranks are easy to attain and maintain, while the latter ranks are best left to students, the unemployed, and people who hire farming services to play their account day and night. Rank updates after the weekly maintenance on Tuesday, so don't be concerned if you don't see any change during the week.

As you rank up, you'll be eligible to buy from a PVP vendor a variety of useful doodads and pieces of armour (mostly skewed towards high stamina, which is considered by many to be the most useful stat in PVP), and this is the main reason people throw their lives away in order to reach the nerd-coveted rank of High Warlord. You won't be doing that if you have any shreds of sense, but there are some very good reasons to play around with the early ranks.

Honour

1) Grunt (Rank 2)

On reaching Rank 2 (you can do it in one night of running the Battlegrounds) you'll be eligible to buy the Grunt's Insignia. This is a trinket with a 5-min cooldown that dispels certain means of crowd control, depending on your class. For instance, the rogue Insignia dispels Fear, Polymorph and Seduce. For the most part, this will not be useful in PVE play, but once you spend a bit of time wandering Warsong Gulch as a fluffy little sheep, you'll realize it's a godsend in PVP.

The exception to this rule is any Insignia that allows you to get out of Slowing or Immobilizing effects - that actually does have some use in PVE play, as there are some critters out there that throw nets at you and whatnot. It's not the MOST useful trinket you could be carrying, but it's also quite likely to be your first.

If you get demoted to Scout for lack of PVP, this trinket will still be usable. This wasn't always the case (PVP-vendored items used to become unusable if you dropped past the rank at which you were able to buy them), but that insanity was taken care of a few patches ago.

2) Sergeant (Rank 3)

Rank 3 allows you to buy a nice blue cloak with lots of stamina (If I recall correctly, which I might not). More importantly, it gives you a 10% discount on all vendored items within your faction - this works just like the Honoured bonus, but Horde-wide (or Alliance-wide, if you're so inclined), and the two stack.

This is a fantastic bonus for a very small time investment in something that you're likely to find a lot of fun. Rank 3 is easy to attain and maintain, and you'll save a lot of cash on training and buying your mount.

3) Ranks 4 and Up

... are not as significant as the first few. Don't worry too much about them. Some of the high-end PVP armours are nice, and some of them fill itemization gaps (Druid PVP armour is basically the only feral set in the game outside of Ahn-Qiraj).

Faction

Gaining honour is only part of the equation. While you run around in Battlegrounds, you're also gaining Faction with their custodians - be it the Warsong Outriders, the Defilers, etc. The unfortunate thing is that faction takes a loooong time to grind. Fortunately, Battlegrounds are fun, and faction - unlike rank - will never decay.

Like rank, faction with the battlegrounds will allow you to buy some nice items. Most of them are skewed slightly towards PVP usefulness, but not as significantly so as the items purchaseable by rank.

Some of the items purchaseable from the battlegrounds are among the best gear in the game. They're not as attainable to casual PVPers as the Sergeant's Discount, but the fact that Faction doesn't decay allows you to space things out, do as much or as little PVP as you want, and still potentially get there eventually.

Fun

As anybody who's watched Hard Target can tell you, the most dangerous prey... is MAN! (and WOMAN!) PVP is fun, and playing around with the Battlegrounds will give you a nice mix of chaotic mass combat and one-on-one confrontations. And beating up other players is a little trickier than preying on poor, defenseless murlocs - odds are, you'll get a lot better at playing your class, and you'll find some interesting uses for skills that are otherwise useless (Sentry Totem, for instance).

Weltenreiter

07-12-2006, 09:29 AM

If you get demoted to Scout for lack of PVP, this trinket will still be usable. This wasn't always the case (PVP-vendored items used to become unusable if you dropped past the rank at which you were able to buy them), but that insanity was taken care of a few patches ago.This apply to all Rank-based items, ie the armor sets too? Still equippable after losing the rank nowadays?

Dorchadas

07-12-2006, 09:44 AM

This apply to all Rank-based items, ie the armor sets too? Still equippable after losing the rank nowadays?

Yes.

AusJeb

07-12-2006, 10:11 AM

It would also be fun to undertake another guild contract for some PvP outside of the BGs.

Merojin has a lead on a contract to recover a book from the Tower of Asarha in Elwyn Forest.

Seroster

07-12-2006, 11:36 AM

Gaining whatever position is equivalent to Knight on the Alliance side gives you access to some cheap potions, which can be used anywhere.

Ghostwise

07-12-2006, 11:47 AM

What is the most interesting BG for somebody in his 30s (I might do some when I'm 39), and how can the priest avoid being jumped by every nearby Alliance ? :-)

nonsense

07-12-2006, 11:50 AM

What is the most interesting BG for somebody in his 30s (I might do some when I'm 39), and how can the priest avoid being jumped by every nearby Alliance ? :-)

Arathi and Warsong are your only options at this point. I like both, but Warsong can sometimes go on forever if you're unlucky. Arathi, unfortunately, doesn't really get going until the 40s, because mobility is an important part of the battleground and people prefer to have mounts. You can still probably check it out on honour weekends, though.

You'll be jumped often as a priest, but between PW:S and Psychic Scream, you should have the tools to stay alive. For extra fun, use your fear in the Warsong flag rooms, either on the attack or on defense. Insta-chaos.

Ghostwise

07-12-2006, 01:05 PM

So Warsong it is.

It's best to pick the quest at the actual entrance before you enter, right ?

Is there any way to tell when you're high enough to make sarge so you can leave at the end of the match ?

nonsense

07-12-2006, 01:23 PM

So Warsong it is.

It's best to pick the quest at the actual entrance before you enter, right ?

There aren't a whole lot of quests related to the battlegrounds, and the main ones (which allow you to turn in tokens for reputation after a game) can be gotten from the battlemasters in capital cities. There are a few other quests (like an Arathi Basin quest to assault each flag) that you can get from the actual world entrance. Also, if you want to buy items from the battleground owners when your reputation is high enough, you'll need to travel to the actual world entrance to do it.

Is there any way to tell when you're high enough to make sarge so you can leave at the end of the match ?

Not really, no. Your standing is relative to that of other players, and calculated during the Tuesday maintenance. So on a really busy week you may need 10,000 honour to make Sergeant, while a BG-light week may only require 8. (Caution: numbers pulled from ass).

nonsense

07-12-2006, 01:29 PM

Also:

Honour Weeks

Sometimes you'll see Emissaries from the Defilers or Frost Wolves or what have you wandering around Orgrimmar. That means it's an honour weekend, and you get double honour for participating in the matching battleground. If this is the case, expect the other battlegrounds to be empty. On any given honour weekend, there's only one game in town.

Poor Man's Hearthstone

If you queue up for a Battleground, you don't have to just sorta sit there and wait. You can go about your business in the world, and when the battleground is ready you'll teleport right in (you have an option to ignore it and drop from the queue if you find yourself in the middle of something you'd prefer to be doing). When the dust clears, you'll find yourself wherever you queued up.

This is super-handy for Shamans, who have a fifteen-minute hearthstone in Astral Recall. Bind yourself to wherever you're questing, and queue up in Orgrimmar (or wherever). You'll be able to instantly hearth back to where you were once the battleground is done, which allows you to avoid travel times. And you get a periodic, unpredictable teleport back to town, which can be handy if you need to hit an auction house and unload.

This doesn't work terrifically with the 60-minute cooldown everybody else has, but it's a fun trick if you happen to be a shammie.

Upcoming (1.12) Changes

The PVP system is being "looked at". Expect (Blizzard has made statements to this effect) that the rate at which honour decays will slow down, although the significance is anybody's guess. They're also going to link the battlegrounds cross-server, which should ideally mean the BGs are hopping at all times, and that queues will be a thing of the past.

There's also gonna be more world PVP stuff. I'm curious but know nothing.

I'm rather hoping for a new battleground one of these days.

Edit:

Oh, and Ghostwise - queue up with me. I usually get a few BGs in here and there, and we're in the same level banding.

wuxing

07-13-2006, 07:38 AM

Oh, and Ghostwise - queue up with me. I usually get a few BGs in here and there, and we're in the same level banding.

I'm horrible remembering RPGnet handles and toon names, but if you any happens to be on the horde side, please mention when you want to que up for BGs. I want to get my feet wet and would rather do it with the Company than alone. :)

nonsense

07-13-2006, 07:46 AM

Sure thing - these days, I'm mostly PVPing as Knifedance. If you see me online, chances are I'm queued up for something.

Dorchadas

07-13-2006, 09:17 AM

Semerkhet

07-13-2006, 02:30 PM

To those who have PVPed more than I (I got up to Knight, then let it slide for a while).

How reasonable/feasible is it for me to get the rank 7-10 honor set, assuming I don't spend all my free time PVPing? Probably at least a couple games a day and the appropriate battleground on honor weekends, but is it reasonable?

Some of those pieces are nice for a Balance druid :)

I just got done with the climb to rank 10. I'd say that pretty casual play with get you to rank 8. Rank 9 and 10 take some dedication. For that last push, I PvP'd about four nights a week for six hour stretches. For my server, Lightninghoof(RP-PvP), it took about four weeks of getting about 150k honor to go from 8 to 10. I don't recommend trying to go past 10 unless you've got a lot of time on your hands. I like PvP much more than PvE, so I wanted to complete the blue armor set. It's very nice. :)

Cheers,
Dulkunta (60 Tauren Shaman)

Mr. Horrible

07-13-2006, 02:38 PM

You can probably get to 6 without too much hassle, and 8 without throwing your life away. I'm rank 9, and I have officially reached the point where PVP starts to feel like a grind. I did a decent amount of PVP last week, 1-3 hours an evening, 6 nights out of the week ... and gained a whole 5% of a rank.

The good news is: PVP is surprisingly fun, so it took a whole lot of it for me to reach the saturation point. *

The bad news is: I really want rank 10, to complete my armor set. **

-Horrible

* What Sixten/Karloff called the "Cat Piss Threshold" - the point at which you run the risk of becoming That Guy Who Lives in the Basement and Smells Like Cat Piss.

** Also: We have cats. ;)

Dorchadas

07-13-2006, 02:41 PM

Hmm...that's not too encouraging. The pieces I want most are the helm and the shoulders...which require rank 10 to get.

Well, I can try, anyway :)

Semerkhet

07-13-2006, 02:55 PM

I have to admit I was starting to get burnt out during that last couple weeks trying to get to rank 10. It doesn't help that the Alliance opposition on my server consists of two categories: three exceptionally well geared raiding guilds, and random Alliance PuGs. The problem is that my PvP doesn't raid much at all, so we get beaten most of the time by the uber-epicced Alliance guilds, or else we utterly destroy Alliance PuGs. It's frustrating that hard fought, close matches are rare. We're a fairly new guild, and we're closing the teamwork and skill gap with the top Alliance guilds, but it's frustrating to know that we'll likely never match them in gear. Even if a few of my more crazy guild mates make the push to rank 13 or 14, the Tier 3 sets will totally outclass the purple PvP set. Oh well. /rant off

Dorchadas

07-13-2006, 02:58 PM

Even if a few of my more crazy guild mates make the push to rank 13 or 14, the Tier 3 sets will totally outclass the purple PvP set. Oh well. /rant off

Except for priests, druids, shamans and warriors (and maybe paladins. Not sure). Their tier sets are nearly worthless for high-level PVP.

Semerkhet

07-13-2006, 03:15 PM

Except for priests, druids, shamans and warriors (and maybe paladins. Not sure). Their tier sets are nearly worthless for high-level PVP.
Good point. The tier 3 shaman set has only healing bonuses and no damage bonuses. I think the impact of gear difference is large, but it can be overstated. Still, looking at that Night Elf warrior bearing down on me with Ashkandi, Destroyer of Worlds, is never one I relish.

Ghostwise

07-13-2006, 05:24 PM

Still, looking at that Night Elf warrior bearing down on me with Ashkandi, Destroyer of Worlds, is never one I relish.

Well, since you're presumably not a world, you should be pretty safe, no ?

Semerkhet

07-13-2006, 05:41 PM

Well, since you're presumably not a world, you should be pretty safe, no ?

In the solipsistic sense, perhaps I think I am the world. Then again, if I thought that, the Night Elf warrior doesn't really exist, so I'm safe again. Hrm.

Ghostwise

07-13-2006, 09:19 PM

Did a few WSGs along with Knifedance.

Was utterly lost during the first one (which we lost ignobly anyway), started understanding what I was doing a whole lot more after me and Knife stayed on a semi-quiet defense for a game or two.

Ten honour marks, 64HKs and a fair bit of honour for a relatively brief game time - making sergeant should be relatively easy.

Thanks to Nonsenseconscience for his explanations and general support while I was trying to determine where I would be mosty efficient.

I also note that Shadow Word:Pain against people in their low 30 is rather efficient. They have surprisingly low HPs.

Blue Boy

07-13-2006, 11:27 PM

Just to add my two cents here...

I play on Terenas server, as a 60 undead warrior.

PVP can be very, very frustrating as a warrior. All your nice shiny armor doesn't help against mages, warlocks and priests melting your face, hunters can murder you from 40 yards away and trap you when you get close, rogues can stop you from laying an axe on them, and so on. But dammit, it's just plain old FUN!

But just think of the shiny toys you can get. And how squishy the clothies are when you finally do get close...

nonsense

07-14-2006, 07:29 AM

Thanks to Nonsenseconscience for his explanations and general support while I was trying to determine where I would be mosty efficient.

Hope you enjoyed yourself!

Once we both hit 40+, I'll drag you into Arathi Basin (possibly before then, if an honour weekend comes along and people actually queue up for it).

After Mind Controlling a few Alliance folk off cliffs, I think you'll learn why priests love AB.

Ghostwise

07-14-2006, 11:03 AM

nonsense

07-14-2006, 11:15 AM

Has the honour been accounted for this morningm or will it be during the night ?

If it's during the night I'll swim a few more laps this evening in WSG, since I think somebody mentioned this was a bonus week.

The bonus weeks typically kick in on Friday - check for the Emissaries wandering around the city. If Warsong Emissaries are standing outside the AH in Orgrimmar, it's 2x honour for WSG.

You can check how much honour you've earned through the Character pane, but the actual ranking only happens after Tuesday maintenance - only then will you find out how much the honour you've earned is worth.

Ghostwise

07-14-2006, 06:15 PM

Bradford C. Walker

07-15-2006, 04:23 AM

Hit up Warsong Gultch tonight for the first time. Dear God, did I feel next to useless. The Horde side was all 24+; I was 22, not optimized, and got schooled. The best I did was set up targets for teammates to take out, or buy the flag carrier precious seconds to score, and twice we lost 3-2. Had a ball, will play again tomorrow.

nonsense

07-15-2006, 08:49 AM

Second round was not that great.

Basically got pounded repatedly into the ground by a group:
- from one guild
- optimized for PvP
- so twinked that even their panties had Crusader ench
- with the occasional autopick mod, oddly fast running speed and, in some cases, a tendency to mysteriously disappear as a target

Oh well, at least they took time to /laugh while slaughtering us.

Not later, they didn't. We had some better matches later that night, though one in particular went at least an hour after the first 2 points were scored (by us) and the Alliance went into hyper-defensive mode. It ended in a 3-2 win for us, I think, and was particularly hard-fought.

Professor Phobos

07-15-2006, 01:05 PM

Bradford C. Walker

07-15-2006, 01:19 PM

While low-levels can be useful, it's a lot less frustrating to wait until you're at least X6 or X7 before entering a BG.
Which, at my leveling rate, will be next Tuesday or Wednesday. :)

Played again today. Alliance won by going up 2-0, then playing Keep-Away long enough to gank the Horde carrier and score. Died a lot again, but kept healing our flag carrier (my assigned job) long enough to make it work. Apparently I'm a good team player.

Professor Phobos

07-15-2006, 01:30 PM

Apparently I'm a good team player.

On the [I]Alliance[I]?

Unprecedented!

Ghostwise

07-15-2006, 06:28 PM

Alliance won by going up 2-0, then playing Keep-Away long enough to gank the Horde carrier and score.

Just had a game like this - wonderful strategy, this.

Druid gets our flag then hide away in some remote hole. Dominant strategy for the Horde, who can no longer score since their flag is not up, is to.... hide the flag.

Mindless gankfest that earns relatively little honour ensues for *hours*, everybody loses. I think Alliance won as too may Horde left out of boredom.

GestaltBennie

07-15-2006, 06:34 PM

No bribe will get me to go through PvP again. Sorry.

Good for those who enjoy it, though. And some of these strategy discussions are charming, so keep them coming.

Bradford C. Walker

07-15-2006, 11:40 PM

On the [I]Alliance[I]?

Unprecedented!
If only there were more of us. I look forward to rolling a Horde alt and seeing from the other side.

TygerTyger

07-16-2006, 12:19 AM

If only there were more of us. I look forward to rolling a Horde alt and seeing from the other side.
A bit of a ramble based on my BG experience this evening:

I just came out of WSG, Horde-side. Seven games, seven wins, six of them 3-0 and the other was 3-1. In one particular match, I don't think we had a single death. This was with even teams (except in one match when we were down two members).

All that is just the prelude to saying that I really don't understand why some Alliance players insist on trying to solo flag captures. That's really what did it for us tonight - every time one or two of them came into our flag room, the defender there (usually me, alone or with backup) would call out their exit if they grabbed the flag, and they'd get pincered between me and two or three people who went to meet them at the exit. One paladin tried to solo-cap the flag about fifteen times, and he always came in on the ramp and exited out the tunnel. It got to the point where you just had to say "Lionheart heading for FR" and everyone knew where to go. He never healed himself, or bubbled, or grabbed the boots. Only once or twice did he actually make it out of our base, but he kept trying the exact same "strategy" over and over and over again regardless.

Conversely, when we went for the flag, it'd be a group of four or five, all going in together. One or two would stay at the Alliance base to cover the retreat (and usually die in so doing, but whatever), the others would escort the FC, and then those who hadn't gone in would clear the way back, with the flag carrier calling out his approach and the sole defender (again, often but not always me) keeping an eye on the flag room. A level x9 'lock with a felhunter out makes a pretty good sentry, as it turns out. It'd be even better on the Alliance side though, because humans have the perception bonus... and yet they only tried it once. On the one or two flag runs where I was on offense, I usually stayed at the Alliance base to cover the return, and I often found myself in the middle of a group of four or five Alliance who were just sort of standing around. They usually didn't even do anything for about five seconds after my arrival or until I attacked them - they just stood there and watched the flag go by.

To those of you on the Alliance side, I highly recommend communication and teamwork. I'm at a loss to explain why it's so much rarer over there than in the Horde, but then again I'm still a BG noob. I did get a nice pile of xp and rep out of the deal, and I'm expecting a decent boost to my honour come Tuesday. Even though I'm not a huge fan of PVP, I find it a nice change every now and then.

P.S. A tip to the idiot Alliance mage who thought she was getting the drop on me - although polymorphing one of the interference runners, waiting for him to trinket out of it and sheeping him again is a good idea, waiting around for it to wear off so you can sheep him again and then /rofl at him, while three others on your team wait for it to wear off (?!) before attacking him, means you've basically allowed one person to tie up half of your team for about a minute. I didn't/couldn't even do anything about it, but I didn't mind because it was so effective at keeping them away from the real action. When half your team spontaneously remove themselves from the battle to pick on one guy who's going to rez in a few seconds anyway, your odds of winning are pretty lousy.

Bradford C. Walker

07-16-2006, 12:43 AM

The last WSG game I played today was textbook Crap Alliance. No putting everyone into a raid. No communication. No teamwork. 10 minutes later, Horde wins 3-0; it would've been faster had there not been a few lucky breaks for us. I came out of that game disgusted with the stupidity.

I'm keeping an eye out for the good Alliance players on Shadowsong. Once I have enough, I'll see about always joining as a group with those folks. That ought to put my PVP fun time up a notch in entertainment value.

Here's to hoping for Corporal by Tuesday. :)

nonsense

07-16-2006, 09:41 AM

Snipped for Great Justice.

I can honestly say I've never seen the Alliance play QUITE that badly.

Maybe I'm spoiled by the 30-39 bracket, in which we're competing against a twink guild with crusader enchants left and right who are really rather good at moving together and supporting each other.

Ah well. I'll probably hit 40 by Tuesday, which will mean a (not particularly) teary-eyed good bye to Bosper and Marckiss, twinks extraordinaire.

Peter LaCara

07-16-2006, 10:37 AM

While low-levels can be useful, it's a lot less frustrating to wait until you're at least X6 or X7 before entering a BG.
Whatever. I'm level 50, and did a few matches of WSG this weekend. I was at, or near the top of the KB list nearly every single time. Granted, I'm a Demonology 'lock, and thus more likely to not die, like, ever, but still.

Yeah, there's something to be said for waiting until you're in the middle of the block so that people aren't resisting you all the time, but on the other hand, it's really satisfying to know that you're taking on people 7-8 levels higher than you... and winning.

Ghostwise

07-16-2006, 11:25 AM

Good bye to Bosper and Marckiss, twinks extraordinaire.

They are among my favourite people, too.

Two rogues with huge gear and, I think, at least one mean of running fast other than Sprint.

TygerTyger

07-16-2006, 11:35 AM

I can honestly say I've never seen the Alliance play QUITE that badly.
Before last night, neither had I. Most of my (admittedly not very numerous) previous WSG matches were pretty close, and in some the Alliance completely schooled us. I was actually a bit incredulous of all the stories I'd heard about the Horde utterly dominating in BGs. Now I know that it is (at least occasionally) very true indeed. Looking back, I think part of the reason I've had a hard time before is that we were usually outnumbered 10-8 or even 10-7 at times. A numbers imbalance can go a long way towards disguising or compensating for any skill differential, and if the more numerous side has the better players anyway, that's gg right there.

Flibbertigibbet

07-16-2006, 01:56 PM

What is the most interesting BG for somebody in his 30s (I might do some when I'm 39), and how can the priest avoid being jumped by every nearby Alliance ? :-)

Having played a Priest for a while....you can't, really. Bubble, psychic scream, and use a lot of Renew and PW:Shield so you can run away while you heal. If you're not being noticed jump on the opportunity to flash heal like there's no tommorow. Don't forget Dispel Magic, it kills a lot of roots, a lot of debuffs, and their buffs. Watch how much mana you spend on Power Word Forting people

Ghostwise

07-16-2006, 07:07 PM

Having played a Priest for a while....you can't, really. Bubble, psychic scream, and use a lot of Renew and PW:Shield so you can run away while you heal. If you're not being noticed jump on the opportunity to flash heal like there's no tommorow. Don't forget Dispel Magic, it kills a lot of roots, a lot of debuffs, and their buffs. Watch how much mana you spend on Power Word Forting people

You just made me realize I terribly underused dispel magic. Thank you.

I also recently understood how to use the battlemap.

OTOH, I should have something like 16K squirreled away for the next update. I might do a few more just to be extra-sure, but I think I'm done.

I am sure that Gilgamesh (an indestructible paladin that obsessively spends entire games trying to kill me) will mourn my leaving.

Bradford C. Walker

07-17-2006, 01:43 AM

Played four times today. Two wins, two losses. The wins were due to superior numbers and a raid boss that knew how to command. The losses were due to folks not doing what they're told, and being outnumbered.

In all cases, the Horde side had regulars; I think I actually struck the killing blow on a Tauran warrior named Laplap three of the five times I actually struck killing blows today. Since I've levelled again, and finally got Seal of Justice, I can actually be more useful in PVP now; peeps appreciate the stuns. I'm quickly specializing in defense for Alliance play with my paladin.

Des

07-17-2006, 06:27 AM

P.S. A tip to the idiot Alliance mage who thought she was getting the drop on me - although polymorphing one of the interference runners, waiting for him to trinket out of it and sheeping him again is a good idea, waiting around for it to wear off so you can sheep him again and then /rofl at him, while three others on your team wait for it to wear off (?!) before attacking him, means you've basically allowed one person to tie up half of your team for about a minute. I didn't/couldn't even do anything about it, but I didn't mind because it was so effective at keeping them away from the real action. When half your team spontaneously remove themselves from the battle to pick on one guy who's going to rez in a few seconds anyway, your odds of winning are pretty lousy.

I had one of these yesterday from the opposite side. AV, alliance is in the horde base, more or less trying to get people up and in sufficient numbers to take out the general. Horde has a nearby graveyard which is allowing them to repop pretty fast, so I head down to see about taking it. Get there just as the rest of the graveyard assault team's dying to a group of 4 horde, so I decide to bugger out, still on horseback. They procede to chase me halfway up the map before one of them even manages to get off a shot to get me off my horse, followed by several minutes of me leading them on a merry chase of frost novas, blinks, and a couple BG pots before they get me. It took a good 7 minutes before they managed to kill me, all told. All the while the horde is struggling to get enough numbers to dislodge the mass of alliance sitting right outside the general's keep. Way to earn that HK, guys. :p

nonsense

07-17-2006, 07:46 AM

You just made me realize I terribly underused dispel magic. Thank you.

Dispel is fantastic. Wanna piss off a mage? Dispel their Ice Barrier or Mana Shield. Or polymorph. Purge, the shaman equivalent (offensive dispel only, so you can't use it to get rid of things like poly), is one of the reasons shammies are so widely hated, yet dispel is better by a few orders of magnitude.

I am sure that Gilgamesh (an indestructible paladin that obsessively spends entire games trying to kill me) will mourn my leaving.

All paladins are indestructible. It's really very annoying. I think I'll make it my business to perfect stunlock specifically so I can take a pallie down without allowing him the chance to bubble.

brooksd01

07-17-2006, 08:52 AM

They are among my favourite people, too.

Two rogues with huge gear and, I think, at least one mean of running fast other than Sprint.

I'll third that one and add Magideath to that...

However, is was fun to arcane explosion Bosper to death a couple of times while he circled me trying to get a stun off. While he was carrying the flag no less.

AusJeb

07-17-2006, 10:16 AM

All paladins are indestructible. It's really very annoying. I think I'll make it my business to perfect stunlock specifically so I can take a pallie down without allowing him the chance to bubble.

I did 7+ rounds of WSG over the weekend with Merojin at 31. I got good on defense. The rounds were split 3:3:1.

At one point, I got into a duel with a paladin in the tunnel. I almost took him and might have won if I had put down healing and/or damage totems when he healed.

A word of warning, in one round, three of us discovered a hole to the left of Silverwing Hold. An Alliance player led us over, we fell in, and then couldn't get out. Couldn't climb out. Couldn't jump out. I tried Autounstuck and got bounced from the BG and labled a deserter, unable to return or sign up for 10+ minutes (that's the tie/inconclusive result; although, I later gathered that the Alliance used their numerical superiority to win after I got kicked). So, watch out for that hole.

Ghostwise

07-17-2006, 10:24 AM

However, is was fun to arcane explosion Bosper to death a couple of times while he circled me trying to get a stun off. While he was carrying the flag no less.

My favourite tactic was to bubble and heal whoever he was trying to kill. When that person goes out of stunlock, well... a rogue, even twinked, has problems with a fair fight. Especially since I usually add a DOT to spice things up. :)

Gangs of rogue cruising midfield and ally base for HKs are more of a problem, but psychic scream is a good solution. Allows me to tie up a lot of enemy firepower on me for thirty to fourty seconds, and they all come out of it with 400 hps missing.

nonsense

07-17-2006, 10:52 AM

At one point, I got into a duel with a paladin in the tunnel. I almost took him and might have won if I had put down healing and/or damage totems when he healed.

(Good) paladins are a tough fight for a shaman.

Tips:

1) Don't bother with healing totems. They're simply not worth the mana.

2) Damage totems are pricy, but Fire Nova can be pretty handy in PVP (unless you're against a team that knows to eliminate totems on sight).

2) You can purge his Seals, but not his bubbles. Seals are more expensive than purges, but some paladins like to throw out low-ranked purge-bait to win the mana war. This isn't terribly common, so it's still worthwhile.

3) Everything a paladin does apart from auto-attacking is Holy. ES holy, and you shut down every part of his game that isn't auto-attack (albeit very briefly).

4) When they bubble to heal, get some range! Don't stick around waiting for them to come out of it. Move away and use a bandage (or heal up, if you're doing well for mana).

Edit:

5) The most obvious tip didn't occur to me. Don't get into melee if you can help it. Paladins have a ton of armour, and they will outlast you. Kite them with Earthbind, Frost Shock and Lighting spells - do that, and odds are you'll force them to heal before they can actually close with you. Most paladins don't seem to realize how powerful Blessing of Freedom is unless they're specifically involved in running the WSG flag (Though you can purge this, it'll still shrug off the effects of one FS (which is now on cooldown) / Earthbind pulse - that's often enough time to get in close).

Ghostwise

07-17-2006, 11:03 AM

ES holy, and you shut down every part of his game that isn't auto-attack (albeit very briefly).

One of the ally priest with an Elvish name, a seasoned PvP guy, had of course taken the Silence talent. I was surprised at how short and thus relatively ineffective it was, since he often used it against me.

Mr. Horrible

07-17-2006, 11:05 AM

All paladins are indestructible. It's really very annoying. I think I'll make it my business to perfect stunlock specifically so I can take a pallie down without allowing him the chance to bubble.

Paladins do have one noticable vulnerability: like most hybrids, they have a fairly small mana pool. If you can remove their mana, they die a lot faster. If you're a warlock, priest, or hunter, use those mana-drain skills!

They're also somewhat hampered by effects that reduce healing effectiveness, like mortal strike, wounding poison, and that troll-priest hex spell.

Sometimes the best way to deal with a paladin is crowd-control. Don't bother trying to kill him unless you have the time to spare; instead, sheep him or sap him or use fear on him - long enough to do what you need to do (Kill the flag-carrier! Capture the lumber mill! Etc etc!). A lot of paladins know the trick of using Blessing of Sacrifice effectively, though, so crowd-controlling one can be iffy.

I've actually sunk 2 of Theomund's talent points into Improved Mana Burn, just because I face pallies in the battlegrounds so regularly. :)

nonsense

07-17-2006, 11:49 AM

Sometimes the best way to deal with a paladin is crowd-control. Don't bother trying to kill him unless you have the time to spare; instead, sheep him or sap him or use fear on him - long enough to do what you need to do (Kill the flag-carrier! Capture the lumber mill! Etc etc!). A lot of paladins know the trick of using Blessing of Sacrifice effectively, though, so crowd-controlling one can be iffy.

I have a rather simple rule to dealing with paladins.

If they're healing their teammates, they're a serious threat and need to be sheeped/stunlocked/whatever.

If they're on the attack and NOT supporting, snare-n'-ignore. While they're more capable DPSers than people seem to think, the damage they put out is not commensurate with the amount of effort that needs to be put into killing them.

Ghostwise

07-17-2006, 12:30 PM

If you're a warlock, priest, or hunter, use those mana-drain skills!

Last time we went against a pallies-and-clerics heavy team, this proved impossible.

There were so many healers hunters simply couldn't viper enough of them, and the priest mana burns thing takes three whole seconds to cast, can be blocked due to damage component (I think) and doesn't take out that much mana.

Don't remember how the warlock one works.

Had to do a lot of creative footwork, as of course they went all-defensive after the match went 2-0 ; I think they were thinking it very clever to farm us (hint - honour doesn't work that way, at least in my n00b understanding). We opted to just stop attacking, knowing ADD would drive them out of their den after a few minutes. It, of course, worked.

Mr. Horrible

07-17-2006, 01:41 PM

Last time we went against a pallies-and-clerics heavy team, this proved impossible.

There were so many healers hunters simply couldn't viper enough of them, and the priest mana burns thing takes three whole seconds to cast, can be blocked due to damage component (I think) and doesn't take out that much mana.

Ah, yes, a healer-heavy team is a hard one to beat. I'm pretty sure there's a formula there: the ease with which we win a fight is directly proportional to the number of healers we have on our side, and inversely propotional to the number the opposition has. Some of my toughest, slowest matches have been the ones in which I was the only one on my team who could heal.

Had to do a lot of creative footwork, as of course they went all-defensive after the match went 2-0 ; I think they were thinking it very clever to farm us (hint - honour doesn't work that way, at least in my n00b understanding). We opted to just stop attacking, knowing ADD would drive them out of their den after a few minutes. It, of course, worked.

Nicely done. :)

(And your "n00b" understanding is exactly right.)

IceShadow

07-17-2006, 01:57 PM

Ghostwise

07-17-2006, 02:09 PM

Well, not exactly. As far as I understand it, HKs do give you some honor, so they could farm it...but it's a LOT less than actually completing the match and winning, or completing it and losing then going on to the next match and trying to win.

Yep, that was my point. Alliance seems very prone, at least in those matches I've been in, to attempts to freeze/derail the game to turn it into a HK fest. Guys, that is *not* an intelligent use of your time, even if you're obviously going to lose. If the match is lost, throw it and get to the next one - that's some honour and a stone in the bank.

Dorchadas

07-17-2006, 02:24 PM

Yep, that was my point. Alliance seems very prone, at least in those matches I've been in, to attempts to freeze/derail the game to turn it into a HK fest. Guys, that is *not* an intelligent use of your time, even if you're obviously going to lose. If the match is lost, throw it and get to the next one - that's some honour and a stone in the bank.

Plus, HKs degrade the more of them you get per person, so in a typical WSG match, you're getting effectively no honor (assuming the teams remain the same) if it goes on for more than about 30 minutes.

TygerTyger

07-17-2006, 06:24 PM

There were so many healers hunters simply couldn't viper enough of them, and the priest mana burns thing takes three whole seconds to cast, can be blocked due to damage component (I think) and doesn't take out that much mana.

Don't remember how the warlock one works.
It doesn't, really. Drain mana is a leash spell (so, channeled and breakable with damage or simply by running out of range of the now-immobile caster), and it drains a pitifully small amount of mana. The Imp. Drain Mana talent adds a small damage component rather than increasing the drain rate. I'm pretty sure most sorts of +dmg gear don't affect it either.

Flibbertigibbet

07-17-2006, 09:37 PM

Mana Burn is tough to use effectivelly because the casting time is long and the results are subtle. But time is rarely an issue when fighting Paladins, and they really don't like Mana Burn. I can usually beat a Paladin in a fair fight, which is rare for me as a Priest.

Re: Organization. I've found that Alliance is slightly more organized than Horde on my server (Dark Iron). It goes in cycles though, depending on whose logged on and queueing. I think Dark Iron is pretty unusual though, all the Penny Arcade guilds keep things pretty organized.

Gaffa

07-17-2006, 09:43 PM

Had to do a lot of creative footwork, as of course they went all-defensive after the match went 2-0 ; I think they were thinking it very clever to farm us (hint - honour doesn't work that way, at least in my n00b understanding). We opted to just stop attacking, knowing ADD would drive them out of their den after a few minutes. It, of course, worked.
If that's the case, then it's time to disrupt them the only place you can get them -- the graveyard.

Yeah, graveyard farming for HKs is vile, but this is a counterstrategy to too many overlapping spellcasters. Send most of your midlevel dudes into their flag room to rumble; save one to three of your toughest sots near their graveyard to whack them as they come back. This will greatly alarm the guys waiting in the flag room, and eventually they're going to have to come out to deal with your graveyard squatting.

Once the turtle's shell has been disrupted, you can either move your graveyard strike team in for support and/or a capture, depending on how well your midlevel assault squad has been doing.

Bradford C. Walker

07-18-2006, 01:30 AM

Excuse me, gang, but I'm on an adrenaline rush right now.

Played two games of Warsong Gulch back-to-back, hoping to come up with three Marks of Honor to turn in for the quest XP. Ended up winning the first match due to the raid boss and I barking orders like madmen, getting people to follow orders, and using my new Seal of Justice spell to augment Hammer of Justice to stymie the Horde flag carriers and buy time to hack or blast them (and, often, their support) apart. I insisted, and got, two people--usually a combo of mage, priest, hunter or rogue--to back me up; I had a mage and a hunter these two times, and a priest would stop by when called upon. Did it again on the second match, to better effect, and the Horde got _mad_- Alliance won 3-2, but damn we made them hurt when it was over.

It was, by and large, the same 20-29 Horde crew that I saw previously. After the first 3-0 win, where my new powers really showed their stuff, the Horde crew put me on the Gank First list. I went from Zero to "Oh shit, it's that Paladin again!" in a weekend--they actually attack me first when coming to get the flag, even if there are higher level Alliance characters nearby--and I'm getting quite good at doing this with just mouse and keyboard, no macros.

Oh yeah, I'm hooked now. Can't get in the way of my questing, but as a sideline? Hell yeah!

Jigglypuff

07-18-2006, 04:33 AM

Speaking from the horde side...

Hammer of Justice is killer. When I first entered the horde 50's bracket with phibes there was an all palladin team. Well not all pally more like 5 to 6 pally team. They were almost impossible to beat. Between the high armor, healing and hoj, you could imagine how bad it was..

I also had the pleasure of playing against the 5 or so alliance rogue team. However they were much easier to beat unless they had a few druids that know what they were doing. Nothing better then being cheap shot by three rogues in a row.. =)

As for two classes sticking together I never really did that.. Well I hung around theo most of the time when we played together. One of my best tactics was to find one of our cloth wears that was alone or drinking. Stealth near them and wait. Soon enough an alliance rogue would attack them thinking it was an easy kill. Only to be cheap shot, by me and finished off by the two of us..

Also as you get higher in level pvp does change a lot. Since people will be getting their better skills (Such as deathcoil) and talents. Phibes really didn't become a killing machine till he got 2 to 4 points into seal fate. Before seal fate he was more of a flag carrier, and the guy that slowed the enemy fc down (with blind, sap, etc). After seal fate he became the main flag returner for our group, heck he could even defend the flag at that point.

TygerTyger

07-18-2006, 10:25 AM

Oh yeah, I'm hooked now. Can't get in the way of my questing, but as a sideline? Hell yeah!
Excellent! I'm glad to hear that at least some Alliance players are figuring out how to play effectively and winning as a result. That you seem to be enjoying the hell out of it is even better. Keep it up!

TygerTyger

07-18-2006, 10:33 AM

Also as you get higher in level pvp does change a lot. Since people will be getting their better skills (Such as deathcoil) and talents. Phibes really didn't become a killing machine till he got 2 to 4 points into seal fate. Before seal fate he was more of a flag carrier, and the guy that slowed the enemy fc down (with blind, sap, etc). After seal fate he became the main flag returner for our group, heck he could even defend the flag at that point.
Death Coil makes Grimm a great defender. If someone nabs the flag, I DoT-DoT-DoT-DC-Fear. Even if they don't die, they're out of action for a while instead of running back to base and in really damn rough shape to boot. They can then easily be picked off by me or my incoming reinforcements. Granted, I can only do that once every two minutes, but it's actually sort of rare that I need it more often while defending.