[D&D 3.5] How's my Paladin?

[RedFox]

I dunno why but I've been on a D20 jag lately (several Star Wars games, D&D games, a World of WarCraft game, and reading Eberron). Anywho, I'm not all that experienced with the system, but Everlucky's told everyone in the group (except me) that he hates my current character and will be "going after" it in the game. So I decided to make a back-up character for when the inevitable rocks fall.

I've never done the paladin thing before. Dunno what possessed me. Anywho, here she is:

Aki
5th Level Human Paladin (LG Alignment, called by Bahamut)

Ability Scores
Strength 12 +1
Dexterity 17 +3
Constitution 13 +1
Intelligence 10 +0
Wisdom 13 +1
Charisma 15 +2

Hit Points: 51
Armor Class 18 (Mithral Breastplate)

Saving Throws
Fortitude +7 (+4 Class, +1 Con, +2 Divine Grace)
Reflex +6 (+1 Class, +3 Dex, +2 Divine Grace)
Will +4 (+1 Class, +1 Wis, +2 Divine Grace)

Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft.

BAB: +5
Melee: +6, Ranged: +8, Grapple: +5

Weapons:
Long Shot (Composite longbow of Distance +1, +1 Str Mod): Attack Bonus +9, Damage 1d8+1, Critical x3, Range 200 ft., Type Piercing, Size Medium
Longsword: Attack Bonus +6, Damage 1d8+1, Critical 19-20 / x2, Type Slashing, Size Medium
Light hammer: Attack Bonus +6, Damage 1d4+1, Critical x2, Type Bludgeoning, Size Medium

Skill Bonuses (ranks)
Appraise +1
Balance +2
Bluff +2
Climb -1
Concentration +9 (8)
Craft (any) +1
Diplomacy +2
Disguise +2
Escape Artist +2
Forgery +1
Gather Information +2
Heal +1
Intimidate +2
Jump -1
Listen +1
Move Silently +2
Ride +11 (8)
Search +1
Sense Motive +9 (8)
Spot +1
Survival +1
Swim -2
Use Rope +3

Gear
Long Shot, Mithral breastplate, longsword, light hammer, backpack, waterskin, trail rations (x1 day), bedroll, sack, flint & steel, hooded lantern, oil (x3 pints), quiver (x20 arrows), Wooden holy symbol of Bahamut, cure light wounds potions (x2, 1d8 hp)

1 gold piece, 9 silver pieces

Languages
Common

Special Abilities
Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil (2/day, +2 atk, +5 dmg), Divine Grace (+2 to saves), Lay on Hands (10 hp / day), Aura of Courage (immune to fear, morale bonus to companions to resist), Divine Health (immune to disease), Turn Undead (x5 / day, +2 check, 2d6+4 dmg, as 2nd Level Cleric), Spells (1 1st level divine spell / day), Special Mount (call once / day for 10 hours)

Feats
Ranged Smite Evil
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot

[Christian]

I like your character. I started playing D&D with the 1e version of the game and always thought of Paladins as big, burly warriors. 3.5 has allowed for variations on this theme and your char design is a good example of the class' new flexibility. Your ability scores are well-distributed and you have a nice mix of skills and class abilties.

The Ranged Smite is a feat I am not famiiar with. Where did it come from? It's a neat idea.

Another question, why the hell would another player promise to kill your current character? Did you kick his dog or something?

Game on!
Christian

[RedFox]

The Ranged Smite is a feat I am not famiiar with. Where did it come from? It's a neat idea.

Book of Exalted Deeds. It's a very simple feat. It does what it says and the only prereq. is that you have the "Smite Evil" ability. :)

Another question, why the hell would another player promise to kill your current character? Did you kick his dog or something?

Game on!
Christian

I made the mistake of playing comedy relief character in the first session (mainly out of boredom) and according to mrlost my character is "too goofy" for Everlucky. He also didn't want an "evil warlock" in the party despite the character being Chaotic Good.

The character in question is a Warlock hengeyokai (fox shapeshifter from Oriental whatever book).

Rather than bother to discuss it with me or anything his plan is to take it out on me in-game.

[Asklepios]

Aki
5th Level Human Paladin (LG Alignment, called by Bahamut)

Ability Scores
Strength 10 +0
Dexterity 17 +3
Constitution 13 +1
Intelligence 12 +1
Wisdom 13 +1
Charisma 15 +2


That's really unconventional. One of the main edges a Paladin has is his ability to use fullplate armour... it seems odd to try to make a light fighter from the Paladin class when you don't have the feats of the Fghter class to back you up. Did you roll, roll + allocate, or points buy?

A standard Paladin build picks Intelligence and Dexterity as the two dump stats, with Dexterity not needing to be better than +1, and Intelligence pretty much totally un-needed. After all, the Paladin class doesn't run on skills but on its fighter/cleric/tank role.

Presumably you're aware of this and going ranged-paladin is a conscious character decision rather than a gaff.


Hit Points: 51
Armor Class 18 (Mithral Breastplate)
Saving Throws
Fortitude +7 (+4 Class, +1 Con, +2 Divine Grace)
Reflex +6 (+1 Class, +3 Dex, +2 Divine Grace)
Will +4 (+1 Class, +1 Wis, +2 Divine Grace)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft.
BAB: +5
Melee: +5, Ranged: +8 / +3, Grapple: +5


If you're intending to stand on the front line at 5th level, then you will find you don't live long. The saves are plenty strong, but the attack rate is pretty weak for a dedicated archer, and of course you'll be dealing little damage.

But then you're going for a ranged paladin build, which is... weird... but cool.


Weapons:
Long Shot (Composite longbow of Distance +1, +1 Str Mod): Attack Bonus +9 / +4, Damage 1d8, Critical x3, Range 200 ft., Type Piercing, Size Medium
Longsword: Attack Bonus +5, Damage 1d8, Critical 19-20 / x2, Type Slashing, Size Medium
Light hammer: Attack Bonus +5, Damage 1d4, Critical x2, Type Bludgeoning, Size Medium


Your PDC, as hackmaster would put it, is pretty low. What's PDC? PDC is player damage capacity - i.e. your ability to consistently throw out hit points of damage each round. even with the ability to smite at a distance you're not going to be terribly useful to your group. Toolboxy, and well rounded, but not one that carries herself in the team.


Languages
Common


You get a bonus language as your build stands, of course.


Special Abilities
Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil (2/day, +2 atk, +5 dmg), Divine Grace (+2 to saves), Lay on Hands (10 hp / day), Aura of Courage (immune to fear, morale bonus to companions to resist), Divine Health (immune to disease), Turn Undead (x5 / day, +2 check, 2d6+4 dmg, as 2nd Level Cleric), Spells (1 1st level divine spell / day), Special Mount (call once / day for 10 hours)

Feats
Ranged Smite Evil
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
[/QUOTE]

In a narrativist rp-oriented game this chaaracter is absolutely fine. Its a balanced and well roudned character with a solid concept.

On the other hand, if your group and game is about optimised character builds, it won't really work.

Depends what you're looking for.

[Asklepios]

The character in question is a Warlock hengeyokai (fox shapeshifter from Oriental whatever book).


Much woot. I'm playing a Kitsune in a Buffy game tonight. :)

I think you are definitely a narrativist and rper at heart then, so the character is just fine. Hope your GM is the same tho!

[RedFox]

That's really unconventional. One of the main edges a Paladin has is his ability to use fullplate armour... it seems odd to try to make a light fighter from the Paladin class when you don't have the feats of the Fghter class to back you up. Did you roll, roll + allocate, or points buy?

4d6, keep 3. Allocated as I wanted. Note that Intelligence got a +1 Ability boost from level 4.

And yeah, I wanted to make a bow-wielding pally. Didn't think it'd be too gimpy, but as I said I haven't ever played one before.

But then you're going for a ranged paladin build, which is... weird... but cool.

Well I hope it's cool. ^_^

Your PDC, as hackmaster would put it, is pretty low. What's PDC? PDC is player damage capacity - i.e. your ability to consistently throw out hit points of damage each round. even with the ability to smite at a distance you're not going to be terribly useful to your group. Toolboxy, and well rounded, but not one that carries herself in the team.

I'm thinking of picking up the multi-shotty feat at Level 6. Maybe that'll help?

You get a bonus language as your build stands, of course.

Do you get a bonus language for having a 4th level Ability boost to Int? I didn't realize. This is, btw, why I have 2 ranks in one skill... I got two extra skill points from the Int boost from level 4 and 5.


Depends what you're looking for.

Something fun to play. I figure if all else fails I can reroll another character and ask for the Wizards character optimization forum to give me a build.

[LuxVeritatis]

A paladin built around a ranged combat build? Interesting. Not seen one before. I'm guessing it means that the party already has a melee fighter to keep people off you. A GM with a bee in his bonnet about a paladin's Code of Honour might have a problem with it though. One hopes that is not the case here, but your reasons for needing this backup character make one wonder.

Comments:

Why Bahamut? He is an appropriate choice for a paladin, but hardly a standard one in most settings. I might have expected a god with more of a leaning towards ranged combat. Of course, if using Races of the Dragon it always gives you the opportunity to become Dragonborn. Or to slay a young red dragon by yourself and take that prestige class from BoED.
Possibly a (half-)elven paladin with an elven god? I think Races of the Wild introduces a LG elven God of war or similar.
Without a strength bonus, I might lean towards a crossbow rather than a longbow. Leave Ranged Smite Attack until next level and take Rapid Reload. Smite Evil can be your way of boosting your melee in emergencies until then. Particuarly true if you don't intend to take Rapid Shot/Multishot.
Alternatively, I'd swap your Strength and Intelligence scores. A paladin is never going to be the skills bunny, and everyone ends up in melee sooner or later.
Particularly with a ranged build, the Concentration skill is a bit less necessary than you might think. You only get one spell: use it for a Bless or similar, and it leaves the party cleric one more spell for healing. Your Lay on Hands can do combat heals to stabilise and I don't believe it can be interrupted even if it does provoke an AoO.
Featwise, I would suggest that you might want to move down Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery as an evolution of this build. Alternatively, look into some of the many divine feats to give an alternative use for your Turn Undead, especially if there is a Turn-capable cleric in the party.
Why Handle Animal? A paladin's mount is intelligent and a magical beast, so it can't be used on that. Not sure why it's a class skill really.
At higher levels you may have a choice between wearing the heavier armour your class allows and giving up some of your Dex AC bonus and mobility that an archer needs.


Error that I have noticed:

Unless using a house rule, you don't have two attacks with the bow, you have one, at +8. You don't get the second attack until your BAB reaches +6/+1, when you will get it with both ranged and melee.
You haven't got enough skill ranks. Paladins have 2+Int bonus/level, +1 /level for being human. You could have four class skills maxed at eight ranks. I see only three at 8 and one more at 2.


Otherwise, it looks fine and is certainly interesting.

Edit: And five other posts in the time it took me to write that...

[RedFox]

Oh, and I see Aki as a bit of a ditzy type anime chick, with ridiculous armor (note the mythral breastplate). I'm using this as her portrait:

http://forum.rpg.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=13975&stc=1&d=1153231413

[RedFox]

A paladin built around a ranged combat build? Interesting. Not seen one before. I'm guessing it means that the party already has a melee fighter to keep people off you.

Yeah, sorta. We've got a half-orc barbarian as our mainline fighter.

A GM with a bee in his bonnet about a paladin's Code of Honour might have a problem with it though. One hopes that is not the case here, but your reasons for needing this backup character make one wonder.

Nothing in the code of conduct as-written prevents anything I see the character doing. :confused:

Why Bahamut? He is an appropriate choice for a paladin, but hardly a standard one in most settings. I might have expected a god with more of a leaning towards ranged combat. Of course, if using Races of the Dragon it always gives you the opportunity to become Dragonborn. Or to slay a young red dragon by yourself and take that prestige class from BoED.

Because Bahamut's cool and originally I'd thought of taking Pal 4 / Sorc 1 / Dragon Disciple 10. Then I found out that you can't really multi-class a paladin freely. Meh.

Without a strength bonus, I might lean towards a crossbow rather than a longbow. Leave Ranged Smite Attack until next level and take Rapid Reload. Smite Evil can be your way of boosting your melee in emergencies until then. Particuarly true if you don't intend to take Rapid Shot/Multishot.

I'm interested in Rapid / Multishot and keeping the bow schtick tho.

Alternatively, I'd swap your Strength and Intelligence scores. A paladin is never going to be the skills bunny, and everyone ends up in melee sooner or later.

I suppose...

Particularly with a ranged build, the Concentration skill is a bit less necessary than you might think. You only get one spell: use it for a Bless or similar, and it leaves the party cleric one more spell for healing. Your Lay on Hands can do combat heals to stabilise and I don't believe it can be interrupted even if it does provoke an AoO.

The party cleric is a Dread Necromancer. I'm thinking of keeping Protection from Evil as my prepped spell of choice for now.

Featwise, I would suggest that you might want to move down Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery as an evolution of this build. Alternatively, look into some of the many divine feats to give an alternative use for your Turn Undead, especially if there is a Turn-capable cleric in the party.

Hmm, alternative use?

Why Handle Animal? A paladin's mount is intelligent and a magical beast, so it can't be used on that. Not sure why it's a class skill really.

Oh! Umm, well that frees up a skill pick...

At higher levels you may have a choice between wearing the heavier armour your class allows and giving up some of your Dex AC bonus and mobility that an archer needs.

:( Maybe I can compensate in some way, such as ranged attackers do.

Unless using a house rule, you don't have two attacks with the bow, you have one, at +8. You don't get the second attack until your BAB reaches +6/+1, when you will get it with both ranged and melee.

Ah, didn't realize it was only BAB that split off at +6. Thanks for the clarification.

You haven't got enough skill ranks. Paladins have 2+Int bonus/level, +1 /level for being human. You could have four class skills maxed at eight ranks. I see only three at 8 and one more at 2.


See my post above where I mention the Int bonus was from levelling up at 4th.

[Mr Jack]

That's a pretty weak build, if you ask me.

Are you allowed the Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) class from Unearthed Arcana? It may be worth considering that instead, as you'd be able to benefit from some bonus fighter feats to get your ranged damage potential up or take fighter-1/cleric-4 to get a good whack more spell casting ability (assuming you juggle those stats to give yourself a better wis) or for a really whacky build, base it on Ranger-2/Cleric-3.

Did you remember your bonus stat point for level 4?

I'd consider Rapid Shot over Precise Shot as that would allow you to deal more damage or target more foes in a round, and look at picking up the exotic weapon proficency (Great Bow) feat maybe just to up that damage potential a bit.

[Sargrak]

Why Int?
The char is allready quite weak and badly in need of having that spend on strength for the bow and the melee, or any other ability for that matter. You don't really need skill points anyway.
I like the character, but there's a point where you actualy begin to shoot yourself in the foot...

[Christian]

Your character's emphasis on ranged combat reminded me of an feat I offer to players in my game. It's called Dead Eye and it appeared in Dragon 304 (page 84). It's pretty much Weapon Finesse for a ranged weapon. Maybe your DM might let you acquire it at a later date to beef up your damage potential. It goes a little something like:

Dead Eye
Your precision with ranged weapons translates into more telling blows than you could normally make.

Prerequisites: Dex 13+, base attack bonus +1, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (any ranged weapon).

Benefit: You may add your Dexterity bonus to all damage rolls made with ranged weapons for which you have the Weapon Focus feat, so long as the target is within 30 feet.

Special: Dead Eye does not increase the damage dealt to creatures that are immune to critical hits.

Oh, I like your char portrait. :)

PS: El Centro? Damn, stay cool my man. It must get crazy hot there!

[RedFox]

Oh, something I feel I should mention:

I rolled an Attribute spread of 10, 17, 13, 11, 13, and 15.

Notice all the odd numbers? I figured I'd spend my level-up ability bonuses evening everything out first (getting an 18, 14, 12, 14, and 16). I chose Int first because unlike Con it doesn't give you a retroactive benefit, so it's good to bump it up early.

I realize this still doesn't answer the "why didn't you swap Str and Int" question a lot of folks are asking, but I do intend to bump up Str by one point, giving myself a +1 bonus (which is why I bought the capability in the composite bow).

EDIT: And it's only now that I realize I didn't have an 11 in Str and shot myself in the foot. Doh!

[Asklepios]

Builds don't have to be strong to be fun... BUt if we are going the optimisation route on ranged paladin...

Optimisation

...this is going to be hard. Ranged paladin is not something that comes easily.

First off I'd pick a race with an inherent dexterity bonus, like halfling or elf. This tweaks up your attack bonus by +1.

Don't forget that a +1 to hit equals significantly higher damage capacity. If, for example, you go from hitting an enemy on 15+ to 14+, then thats 20% more damage over time.

If you do stay human, I'd take advantage of that by multiclassing. As long as the Paladin levels come after the other class then there's no problem. To maintain your accuracy you'll want to go for a class with access to a strong BAB, aka Ranger or Fighter. Fighter wouldbe choice, as this will make sure you have the feats you need to pull this class off.

Next you want to be able to find a niche that the ranged Paladin can fill that the ranged Fighter can't. This is hard, as the fighter has so many skills to play around with and so many less ability scores to spend build points on. Sure, you could be a better jack-of-all-trades and have better saves, but that's not really enough if you're aiming to optimise. When it comes to dungeoneering, every party member needs to be very good at something.

The niche that springs to mind for me is Mounted Archery. A Paladin's special mount will give him a lot more battlefield mobility than a fighter can manage.

I'd strongly consider wearing fullplate even if you have a high dexterity, as the AC will probably work out higher. Add to this the fact that mounted you will be just as mobile in armour or not, and going lightly armoured becomes less and less appealing.

Featwise you want to get Rapid Shot as quickly as possible. It doesn't quite double damage capacity because of the minus to hit. As a rule of thumb, if the To-Hit is 18+ or harder, there's no point in taking a Rapid Shot.

Your speed and Lay on Hands also lets you double up as a highly mobile emergency healer, and a smattering of spells lets you buff when you haven't got a clear shot. These are small compensations for being a less focused character of course.

The battlefield role of a ranged paladin is hard to place. Traditionally tanks hold the line, thiefs and monks eliminate hard to reach threats of high damage potential (i.e. wizards), wizards provide artillery, and clerics buff and heal. A paladin is typically a tank with a smattering of buff and heal, but a ranged paladn is more of a skirmisher with a smattering of buff and heal. He probably doesn't have a role in a player group of less than five, and then only if the other four are solid builds.

[ru]

I've never done the paladin thing before. Dunno what possessed me.
much guff is talked about paladins, but i find them a really interesting class to roleplay. my advice is to focus on the things that make them different from the others: their superhuman dedication, and the fact that they are completely incapable of fear. it's an interesting lens to view the world through.

Oh, and I see Aki as a bit of a ditzy type anime chick, with ridiculous armor (note the mythral breastplate). I'm using this as her portrait:

haha, are you sure the guy who objected to your hengeyokai isn't going to hate this as light relief either? ;)

(i recently played a cat hengeyokai in a one-off, and spent almost the entire session in cat form making smartass comments. had a ball :) )

[RedFox]

I should note that we have a group of less than five players.

Me, currently as a warlock / hengeyokai.
mrlost as a dread necromancer (he made a backup character that's a Marshall from the miniatures handbook).
Meltingman as a half-orc barbarian with a big weapon of some sort.
DarkGalaxy as a elven sorceress though she may be switching that character out for a rogue. Not 100% sure what she's doing yet.

So maybe my unconventional character isn't the best bet. *le sigh*

[LuxVeritatis]

Nothing in the code of conduct as-written prevents anything I see the character doing. :confused:


I did say 'bee in his bonnet', i.e. unreasonable and excessive. It would be an interpretation going beyond what is in the book, something more akin to the old Cavalier class (or the new Knight class) and picking up all sorts of baggage about how a 'true knight' would only meet his opponent with a blade, yadda yadda. I only mention it because I have met DM's who don't seem to think being a paladin is hard enough already and want to lumber it with a massive burden of chivalry too...


Because Bahamut's cool and originally I'd thought of taking Pal 4 / Sorc 1 / Dragon Disciple 10. Then I found out that you can't really multi-class a paladin freely. Meh.


Cool is a good reason. It wasn't intended to be criticism, just curiousity. Also, with that class build, you can happily multi-class out of paladin. You just can't ever go back into it. Start as a Pal 4/Sorc 1. Just means that if you survive to 16th you'll be going back into Sorceror. Or something else entirely.


I'm interested in Rapid / Multishot and keeping the bow schtick tho.


In which case, I urge any sort of Str bonus. The more shots you get, the more it adds up. Unless you do get access to something like the Dead Eye feat. Were it me, I might even consider swapping your Str and Con if you really want the Int 12. If you can trust to mobility and good use of your terrain to stay out of melee, HP immediately becomes less important. You're already some HP up on the average ranger or rogue.

I appreciate that character concept is important, but D&D is unforgiving of less than optimal builds sometimes, and it takes it out on the entire party.


The party cleric is a Dread Necromancer. I'm thinking of keeping Protection from Evil as my prepped spell of choice for now.


Good choice. But I would still say Concentration is perhaps more optional than it may seem.


Hmm, alternative use?


Divine Feats each allow the expenditure of a Turn attempt to achieve a certain effect. One allows you to add your Cha bonus to your shield bonus for your Cha bonus in rounds. Another automatically maximises a heal spell cast by someone else in the same round. There are a number in Complete Divine, and have tended to crop up in a number of supplements since then.


Oh! Umm, well that frees up a skill pick...


All the more reason to put the 11 into Str and up it to 12, rather than Int. Not to rub it in or anything... ;)


:( Maybe I can compensate in some way, such as ranged attackers do.


Mounted Archery? Takes advantage of the Special mount and fixes any mobility problems.


See my post above where I mention the Int bonus was from levelling up at 4th.

So noted. It got posted in course of my reply.

[Wolfwood2]

Aki
5th Level Human Paladin (LG Alignment, called by Bahamut)

Ability Scores
Strength 12 +1
Dexterity 17 +3
Constitution 13 +1
Intelligence 10 +0
Wisdom 13 +1
Charisma 15 +2


Okay, a ranged paladin.

Skill Bonuses (ranks)
Appraise +1
Balance +2
Bluff +2
Climb -1
Concentration +9 (8)
Craft (any) +1
Diplomacy +2
Disguise +2
Escape Artist +2
Forgery +1
Gather Information +2
Heal +1
Intimidate +2
Jump -1
Listen +1
Move Silently +2
Ride +11 (8)
Search +1
Sense Motive +9 (8)
Spot +1
Survival +1
Swim -2
Use Rope +3

Why are you wasting 8 ranks in Concentration. You're not much of a spellcaster, so just cast before going into combat. (Especially as a ranged specialist means you're not going to be doing much casting in melee.)

Paladins have a great class skill list and as a human you get that extra skill point. Move those wasted ranks in Concentration into Diplomacy instead. With maxed out Diplomacy and maxed out Sense Motive you'll more than hold your own in the social arena.

Feats
Ranged Smite Evil
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot

(squints eyes)

Man oh man, you just don't have enough feats, do you? I can't say that you can do without any of those, but you also need Mounted Combat and Shot-on-the-Run.

Have you considered maybe taking two levels of fighter before going into paladin? Yes, it'll reduce progression in all those nifty paladin powers, but the two extra feats might just be worth it.

[RedFox]

So I should probably make an entirely different character. The DM mentioned last week that he'd prepped for a "magic heavy" party but everyone (save me) had switched characters at the last minute (Meltingman switched out a warforged cleric for the half-orc barbarian, DarkGalaxy switched the elven sorceress for a rogue, and mrlost switched his Dread Necro for a Marshall).

On the one hand it'd be good to make a magic user. On the other, I absolutely loathe resource management crap (part of why I like the Warlock so much). Sorcerer seems a good middle ground, but I've played them before and not had any fun.

So I dunno. :(

[Corinthi]

Red Fox, why not take the exact same concept of the cute girl wearing inappropriate armor and turn it on it's ear.

Rather than a Ranged Paladin, which is a cool idea, reroll and make yourself an Elven Warmage.

This cute little good natured elven girl with a bow who looks like a ranger or rogue or some such, who unleashes torrents of ARCANE FIRE on those poor souls who cross her.

Warmages may not be flexible, but they contribute in a fight, and the juxtaposition between the kawaii little archer and the bringer of destruction would be fun. Sort of Slayer's vibe.

Plus, because Warmages lack flexibility, there's really not as much resource management as you might think. It's sort of like having a Wand of Big Badda Boom that's usable X/day. It's not like you need to save spell slots for Utility spells.

[Asklepios]

On the one hand it'd be good to make a magic user. On the other, I absolutely loathe resource management crap (part of why I like the Warlock so much). Sorcerer seems a good middle ground, but I've played them before and not had any fun.

Yeah Sorceror is pretty good if you don't like managing resources. But i agree that they're not much fun,just because you end up getting so few otpions.

If you're after fun, and your GM wants a little bit of magic, why not consider a Bard? They have hundreds of options, do the jack of all trades thing, and are arcanists to boot. Admittedly a bard can't really be optimised (IMHO), but they're definitely a lot of fun to play.

[Particle_Man]

When playing a paladin, it is a very good idea to talk with your DM and work out exactly what is, and what is not, allowable behaviour for the paladin. As various flamey threads on all rpg related message boards (even ones that don't mention D&D, it is that prevalent a meme) show, people differ as to what is acceptable/not acceptable for the paladin.

Make certain that you and your DM are on the same page here, to avoid frustration now.

[Thanatos02]

You'll see a lot of people who argue about Bard optimization otherwise, but it's typically a fairly narrow market.

As far as a ranged Paladin, if you're a Human, the extra Feat and the ability to multiclass is strong. Since you'd be going for a character type that really appreciates extra Feats, I dug up some books to look at.

Paladins suffer from MAD - Multiple Attribute Deficiantcy - to some degree. Many want good Charisma, Wisdom, and Strength. If you're going ranged, suddenly you want good Dexterity, too, and start pulling from Strength or Wisdom to get it. Depending on how you want to do it, you might consider that spending (an admittedly scarce) Feat to reduce stat demands to be worth your while. Zen Archery reduces your need for Dexterity in a ranged build and lumps it in with Wisdom, which should already be decent. That stops you from having to pull from Strength, which still adds to damage with a Mighty bow.
Furthermore, a decent Strength with Power Attack allows Divine Might, which lets you use your Charisma bonus to weapon damage for a round if you spend a Turn charge. It's not that great for you, though, because Power Attack is pretty much a wasted Feat with you.

The ability to multiclass isn't to be ignored. Devoted Tracker allows you to alternate between the bow-friendly Ranger class (with its bonus Feats for archery) and the Paladin class. It also offers bennies for your pets, so that's not bad. If you're going ranged Paladin, that's what I'd suggest.

If you take Ranged Smiting, Improved Smiting might be ok, but it'd probably be better to focus on archery.

[pawsplay]

I think your build looks good as a starting place. Divine favor is going to be your bread and butter for damage output. Considering your mobility focus, your next three feats should be Dodge, Mobility, and Shot on the Run.

I don't think the distance property on your bow is going to be all that helpful; bows already have a very significant range. For the same +1 enhancement, I'd go with shocking, icy, or flaming, properties which nearly double your damage.

Take one rank in Craft so you can make arrows in a pinch.

[Wolfwood2]

I think your build looks good as a starting place. Divine favor is going to be your bread and butter for damage output. Considering your mobility focus, your next three feats should be Dodge, Mobility, and Shot on the Run.

Not even. All those ranks in Ride + a paladin's mount will take care of mobility. Mounted Archery is what he needs.

[Thanatos02]

I think your build looks good as a starting place. Divine favor is going to be your bread and butter for damage output. Considering your mobility focus, your next three feats should be Dodge, Mobility, and Shot on the Run.

I don't think the distance property on your bow is going to be all that helpful; bows already have a very significant range. For the same +1 enhancement, I'd go with shocking, icy, or flaming, properties which nearly double your damage.

Take one rank in Craft so you can make arrows in a pinch.

Shot on the Run is really good, but wouldn't it be better to go for Rapid Shot as fast as possible? Perhaps not...
The Craft suggestion is really good, considering that 1 point is hardly anything at all, and making arrows isn't too tough.

But, while elemental enchantments certainly are impressive, wouldn't it be better just to invest in a blanket +X bonus? The add to hit would certainly make a difference - especially over time.

[pawsplay]

Shot on the Run is really good, but wouldn't it be better to go for Rapid Shot as fast as possible? Perhaps not...
The Craft suggestion is really good, considering that 1 point is hardly anything at all, and making arrows isn't too tough.

But, while elemental enchantments certainly are impressive, wouldn't it be better just to invest in a blanket +X bonus? The add to hit would certainly make a difference - especially over time.

I thought about that after I posted. Yeah, that is an equally good suggeston, I think. A matter of taste.

I'm pondering the pros and cons of Mounted Archery over Shot on the Run. I think I personally would just command my mount to attack, and use archery on foot. But there is a lot to be said for mounted archery, if you have lots of open space to use.

[Tetnahkshem]

Honestly, dispite my personal love for paladins, if you're looking for opinions, I say stick with the Kitsune Warlock.

The way things seems to be reading, it really sounds like the concept/character that you're going to enjoy/are already enjoying the most.

Also, it might be worth a seperate thread on what's up with the player pushing OOC issues into the game itself.

[pawsplay]

Maybe it's time to start another thread in which we help you kill Everlucky's character in cold blood.

[rotru]

Ok, this is a kinda complicated build, but I've been thinking about lately and it looks like it meshes pretty well with your character concept.

Elf Paladin 3/Ranger 2
Feats: Devoted Tracker (Complete Adventurer), Point-Blank Shot (or another of your choice), Rapid Shot (Ranger level 2)
Play around with the attributes and skills as others have already suggested

If your DM allows it, take some of the Racial Substitution Levels from Races of the Wild. Specifically, Take Elf Ranger 1 and Elf Paladin 1, shooting for Elf Paladin 5 as soon as you make it there.

Devoted Tracker will make your Special Mount and Animal Companion the same creature, stacking all of the bonuses. It also will stack your ranger and paladin levels for Smite Damage and Wild Empathy.

Elf ranger will give you access to better (+3) favored enemy bonuses if you pick orcs, undead, or servants of Lolth (drow and company). My choice would probably be undead, but by taking this one level, you can choose these improved categories at any time you get a new favored enemy.

Elf Paladin will change your Smite Evil to Ranged Smite Evil (usable only with short or long bow, only to 30 feet) without needing a feat. Elf Paladin 5 will let you take a unicorn as your Special Mount, which is awesome in my book. It seems to me that it would go well with your character concept, and the bonuses from Devoted Tracker will really make a powerful mount.

You'll get the other archery feats you need for free from Ranger and can spend the ones you get on whatever (although I would go for the Mounted Combat tree, myself).

I'd probably plan for Ranger 12/Paladin 8, to get all of the Ranger's Weapon Styles, but that's up to you. At least take Ranger to 10, and get another enemy and Evasion. Ranger 12/Paladin 8 would give you a unicorn mount with +4 HD, +4 AC, +2 Str, +2 Dex, Int 7, Improved Evasion, +10' speed that shares your spells and saving throws, is empathic and devoted!

So, in all, you'd have to give up human for elf, but you'd still be a sweet-ass anime-inspired elf maiden riding around on a unicorn, firing arrows everywhere! You could change to an Elven LG god, but Bahamut should still be an option.

[ru]

Maybe it's time to start another thread in which we help you kill Everlucky's character in cold blood.
this gets my vote!

[Dnjscott]

What books do you have? I'd recommend going Elf--they get ranged Smite for free and get Survival as a class skill, but only if you have the substitution levels from Races of the Wild.

Also, if you want to be chosen of Bahamut, there's a whole new race devoted to that concept--the Dragonborn. THey're poretty nifty, but you'd have to see Races of the Dragon.

And, I guess, you're not wanting to be a little dragon guy anyway. But thought I would toss it out.

[RedFox]

The Warmage thing sounds neat. It's definetely less of an uphill battle than Paladin archer seems to be. I need to look into that more.

And Everlucky's the DM, not a player. Though he usually throws in some godly GMPCs after a session or two.

[pawsplay]

The Warmage thing sounds neat. It's definetely less of an uphill battle than Paladin archer seems to be. I need to look into that more.

And Everlucky's the DM, not a player. Though he usually throws in some godly GMPCs after a session or two.

What the hell? The GM wants to kill your PC? Why the hate?

[RedFox]

What the hell? The GM wants to kill your PC? Why the hate?

Because it's "too goofy" (due to me playing a kind of Laurel & Hardy comedy relief pairing with mrlost in the first session, and he thinks a fox shifter is inherently goofy) and because he doesn't want an evil character in the game (he has the impression that a Warlock is evil, despite my character being Chaotic Good in alignment).

Anywho...

I found the following on the Wizards optimization fora:

Ranged Attack Paladin (Elf or Halfling or Catfolk Paladin 20)
1-point blank shot
3-precise shot or rapid shot
6-ranged smite
9-precise shot or rapid shot
12-mounted combat
15-mounted archery
18-far shot

An alternative to the usual power attacking, divine mighting paladin


and...

Walking Artillery Platform (Human Warmage 20)
0 Eschew Materials
1 Arcane Mastery
3 Ranged Spell Specialization
6 Energy Substitution (Electricity)
7 Sudden Empower
9 Born of the Three Thunders
10 Sudden Enlarge
12 Battlecaster (Heavy)
15 Explosive Spell
15 Sudden Widen
18 Energy Admixture (Electricity)
20 Sudden Maximize


The latter looks fun, but seems a bit wonky. Eschew Materials seems useless (so you don't have to... umm, buy a component pouch? So what?) and Ranged Spell Specialization requires a feat not included in the build (Weapon Focus).

[Christopher V. Brady]

And 'strike' against a Ranged Pally, sadly, is the fluff presented in the class.

I believe a paladin is suppose to seek out the biggest threat and take him/her/it down, which IMPIES that he/she would go toe-to-toe with them. Now some GMs (And I admit to my being one of them) also structure the basic Paladin Code around a Romanticized version of the 'Code of Chivalry', removing necessary parts like the percived gender roles, and assuming you GM is LIKE me, then he may have had issues against a skirmisher as 'honourable'.

Although as of now, the point seems to be moot. :p That'w what I get for not reading the thread... *Le Sigh*

[RedFox]

And 'strike' against a Ranged Pally, sadly, is the fluff presented in the class.

I believe a paladin is suppose to seek out the biggest threat and take him/her/it down, which IMPIES that he/she would go toe-to-toe with them. Now some GMs (And I admit to my being one of them) also structure the basic Paladin Code around a Romanticized version of the 'Code of Chivalry', removing necessary parts like the percived gender roles, and assuming you GM is LIKE me, then he may have had issues against a skirmisher as 'honourable'.

Although as of now, the point seems to be moot. :p That'w what I get for not reading the thread... *Le Sigh*

Manwhat? I mean, I don't want to go off on a big tangent here, but...

All that the code of conduct says is:

Must be Lawful Good.
Must not commit an evil act.
Must respect legitimate authority.
Must "act with honor" by not lying, cheating, using poison, and so forth.
Help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends).
Punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Must not associate knowingly with evil characters or those who offend her moral code.
Must accept only henchmen, followers or cohorts who are lawful good.

That's it. And if ranged attacks are so dishonorable, then why is there a Ranged Smite Evil feat, let alone that paladins get bows and such as part of their martial proficiency package (which one would think would be explicetly excluded, were it an issue)?

[Christopher V. Brady]

Manwhat? I mean, I don't want to go off on a big tangent here, but...

All that the code of conduct says is:

Must be Lawful Good.
Must not commit an evil act.
Must respect legitimate authority.
Must "act with honor" by not lying, cheating, using poison, and so forth.
Help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends).
Punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Must not associate knowingly with evil characters or those who offend her moral code.
Must accept only henchmen, followers or cohorts who are lawful good.

That's it. And if ranged attacks are so dishonorable, then why is there a Ranged Smite Evil feat, let alone that paladins get bows and such as part of their martial proficiency package (which one would think would be explicetly excluded, were it an issue)?

That's the Code as written. I'm looking through my books, okay, I'm looking FOR my books, for confirmation of something...

[RedFox]

That's the Code as written. I'm looking through my books, okay, I'm looking FOR my books, for confirmation of something...

I tend to go with the RAW unless there's a specific houserule or something going on.

[Christopher V. Brady]

I tend to go with the RAW unless there's a specific houserule or something going on.
That's what I'm looking for. I MAY be misremembering, (Everyone here should know that by now) although I'm pretty sure it was in the Paladin class fluff...

[SuperG]

The Warmage thing sounds neat. It's definetely less of an uphill battle than Paladin archer seems to be. I need to look into that more.

And Everlucky's the DM, not a player. Though he usually throws in some godly GMPCs after a session or two.

And you're still playing?

Why?

[mrlost]

I should note that we have a group of less than five players.

Me, currently as a warlock / hengeyokai.
mrlost as a dread necromancer (he made a backup character that's a Marshall from the miniatures handbook).
Meltingman as a half-orc barbarian with a big weapon of some sort.
DarkGalaxy as a elven sorceress though she may be switching that character out for a rogue. Not 100% sure what she's doing yet.

So maybe my unconventional character isn't the best bet. *le sigh*

No, Everlucky thought the Marshal was weird, I built a Knight who is heading toward the Dragonborn ritual of Rebirth and then on to Paladin as my backup character.

BTW If you decide to become Dragonborn you can multiclass with Paladin freely.

I'm planning the backup character to go Knight 6/Paladin 6/ and possibly a level of sorceror or favored soul.


I can't speak for Redfox but I'm playing in Everlucky's game inspite of the possible problems because the first session or two are usually kickass then the game goes down the tube. But the only way he's going to ever improve is if he keeps running.

[mrlost]

And 'strike' against a Ranged Pally, sadly, is the fluff presented in the class.

I believe a paladin is suppose to seek out the biggest threat and take him/her/it down, which IMPIES that he/she would go toe-to-toe with them. Now some GMs (And I admit to my being one of them) also structure the basic Paladin Code around a Romanticized version of the 'Code of Chivalry', removing necessary parts like the percived gender roles, and assuming you GM is LIKE me, then he may have had issues against a skirmisher as 'honourable'.

Although as of now, the point seems to be moot. :p That'w what I get for not reading the thread... *Le Sigh*

No that is the Knights role. See PHB 2

[pawsplay]

That's what I'm looking for. I MAY be misremembering, (Everyone here should know that by now) although I'm pretty sure it was in the Paladin class fluff...

I'll offer a counterpoint. The Hero builder's Guide and Defenders of the Faith both offered descriptions of paladins who diverged strongly from the norm.

All that is required is impeccable good behavior, and a lawful alignment. As long as you fill people with arrows lawfully, there's no problem. If you do something less than completely lawful, you would want to make up for it later.

Lawful can mean adherence to a personal code, or to authority, or both. It can mean just about anything that means choosing behavior purposefully rather than impulsively or casually. "One shot, one kill," is the motto of a lawful sniper; a chaotic sniper says, "You win some, you lose some."

[BASHMAN]

Swap Dex and Charisma. Dex is not important for a paladin. CHA is VERY VERY VERY important.

[RedFox]

No, Everlucky thought the Marshal was weird

:confused:

Did he say why? I have no idea where his line is when it comes to what constitutes weird and what doesn't.

I can't speak for Redfox but I'm playing in Everlucky's game inspite of the possible problems because the first session or two are usually kickass then the game goes down the tube. But the only way he's going to ever improve is if he keeps running.

Yeah, he has potential.

I'm thinking right now of making a half-dragon (template) Battlemage or Sorcerer, and buying the ECL down with xp.

It'd make a decent compliment to a Dragonborn. What do you think?

[mrlost]

:confused:

Did he say why? I have no idea where his line is when it comes to what constitutes weird and what doesn't.



Yeah, he has potential.

I'm thinking right now of making a half-dragon (template) Battlemage or Sorcerer, and buying the ECL down with xp.

It'd make a decent compliment to a Dragonborn. What do you think?

Did he already disallow your Level 5 Gold Hatchling monster class? 'Cause I don't know about you but a Dragonborn knightly paladin and his loyal Dragon buddy would make a great team. We could both fly which would be cool and serve the same interests. Also there isn't anything wrong with two paladins in a group (I could do the bog standard melee bit and you could be the ranged dude). Repeating crossbow?

[Fade]

The character in question is a Warlock hengeyokai (fox shapeshifter from Oriental whatever book).
That sounds like a cool character.

[RedFox]

Did he already disallow your Level 5 Gold Hatchling monster class? 'Cause I don't know about you but a Dragonborn knightly paladin and his loyal Dragon buddy would make a great team. We could both fly which would be cool and serve the same interests. Also there isn't anything wrong with two paladins in a group (I could do the bog standard melee bit and you could be the ranged dude). Repeating crossbow?

Hmm, what about a Half-Celestial Gold Dragon? It'd be 1st level Dragon with an ECL +4 for the Half-Celestial Template, and I'll work on buying off the ECL with xp.

EDIT: On second thought, not the best of ideas. I'd have anemic HP (but cool stat mods) and would have to wait till Level 12 (ECL 16) to buy off a level of ECL, and would have to go into Epic Levels before I could buy off the rest.

[RedFox]

That sounds like a cool character.

It's a lot of fun. Unfortunately the DM's a prick.

[mhacdebhandia]

On the paladin multiclassing topic:

There are feats in Complete Adventurer for specific multiclassing combinations with paladin - rogue is one of them, I think, and sorcerer.

[Fade]

Personally as a GM I'd drop the paladin multiclass restriction altogether - it's there for flavor rather than balance, and as long as the player comes up with a good character concept (rather than just picking up a few levels of paladin for 'cool powerz') it's all good.

[sporkpimp]

...This is off-topic as fuck, but isn't Everlucky the guy you've repeatedly mentioned as, like, being dangerous and unstable and terrifying?

-Albert

[RedFox]

...This is off-topic as fuck, but isn't Everlucky the guy you've repeatedly mentioned as, like, being dangerous and unstable and terrifying?

-Albert

I wouldn't call him terrifying, though he does have some sort of adreneline imbalance condition.

[mhacdebhandia]

Personally as a GM I'd drop the paladin multiclass restriction altogether - it's there for flavor rather than balance, and as long as the player comes up with a good character concept (rather than just picking up a few levels of paladin for 'cool powerz') it's all good.
I agree.

I also abandon the class skills system. :)

[Patrick O'Duffy]

Everlucky's told everyone in the group (except me) that he hates my current character and will be "going after" it in the game.

It's a lot of fun. Unfortunately the DM's a prick.

I wouldn't call him terrifying, though he does have some sort of adreneline imbalance condition.

Given all this, why are you bothering to play under this guy in the first place?

[Lord Minx]

Sounds a bit like beaten player syndrome...

M

[sporkpimp]

I think we've had a few threads about RedFox's gaming situation before... I bet if you do a search for "Everlucky" you'll pull them all up.

If you're into that kind of thing.

-Albert

[vitus979]

Not even. All those ranks in Ride + a paladin's mount will take care of mobility. Mounted Archery is what he needs.

The problem is that the rules are totally schizo on this point. In more than one location it says that mounts with high enough INT scores should be run using Diplomacy instead of Ride (IIRC the Arms & Equipment Guide had a big explanation on it). The problem is that every single PrC for a mounted character has ride as both a prerequisite and a class skill. Even the ones where your mount WILL be smart like the Dragon Rider in the Draconomicron.

Mounted Archery is a pretty cool feat though. Archery from the back of a mount in general is incredibly powerful if there's enough space to move around. You should probably be a Halfling with the Outrider PrC though (from Complete Warrior).

PS if you're looking for nasty builds built around the mount just ask. The mounted build I'm playing now is pretty cool, but there are a bunch of different types...including the amusing "SuperMount" build.

[Unseenlibrarian]

PS if you're looking for nasty builds built around the mount just ask. The mounted build I'm playing now is pretty cool, but there are a bunch of different types...including the amusing "SuperMount" build.

Is that the one where you're a halfling, multiclass Paladin/Ranger, take Devoted Tracker feat (So your paladin's mount counts as your animal companion, and the levels in both classes stack for determining the stats?) Then go outrider, which says it stacks with paladin and ranger levels for mount stats?

BOnus points if you do it in Eberron and your mount is a dinosaur.

[vitus979]

Is that the one where you're a halfling, multiclass Paladin/Ranger, take Devoted Tracker feat (So your paladin's mount counts as your animal companion, and the levels in both classes stack for determining the stats?) Then go outrider, which says it stacks with paladin and ranger levels for mount stats?

BOnus points if you do it in Eberron and your mount is a dinosaur.

Yes, it's twinky as all hell, but funny in that IIRC at level 18 you can have something like a 28HD mount.

Double bonus points if you take "Dragon Cohort" as your mount then apply the Paladin mount bonuses it mentions in the DMG. Gold Wyrmling at level 11. :)

[zer0boy]

biggest thing to remember here is that to have something out of the "book of exalted deeds" or "the book of vile darkness", you have to have read the book in game which at 5th lvl i would doubt

[Bradford C. Walker]

Holy thread necromancy, Batman!

[Dnjscott]

Huh. I wonder why in the world I subscribed to a thread about somebody's Paladin. :confused:

I may never know...