[Necro] The 1st Invitational "Kill Elminster" Contest

[Dan Hemmens]

Fine. The modron DM rules that a debate about the metaphysics of the universe -- which is exactly what the player was trying, no matter what you claim(*) -- doesn't use the Bluff skill at all. On *either* side. It's a contest of Spellcraft or Knowledge (Arcana). The modron says so let it be written, so let it be done, no appeals.

So when you said, "the game is GMed by a modron" you actually mean "the game is GMed by me".

In which case I would use the only plan that ever works with that sort of GM: second guess what the GM's personal preferences are and play to them.

[JohnB]

"In case you're not grasping it, Shadowdale is a small medieval farming village. The sounds of a brawl in progress can be literally heard across the entire community. "

If I remember right, Shadowdale is strung out quite a bit. The sound of a "wrestling" type brawl is not going to carry that far. We aren't talking about the clash of arms here or booming spell action. We are talking about a guy getting mugged (and likely gagged in the process). During the day I would think most farmers would be out in the fields, not hanging about the village in range of the fight to hear it. That really leaves shopkeepers, wives, retirees and children to worry about. Much of the "militia" would take quite a while to muster in any case, even if alarm were sounded. Storm is really the dangerous one to worry about, being able to call the other high powered help very quickly.

I would add a second mugger to slam a big heavy metal bucket over E's head to block his vision and hearing plus muffle his cries somewhat in case the mauler can't gag him directly. Alternatively, are there no sound-modifying spells available to someone positioned outside the antimagic to alter or deaden any sounds that do erupt before it reaches Harper HQ?

Presumably the actual attack would *not* be set up in direct line of sight of Storm's place.

Making the hit on a market or festival day may also provide cover for sound, though I would imagine it would increase the number of bystanders considerably. Creative (and loud) diversions would help. Hire a travelling minstrel or two to make covering noise- possibly an illusionist show. Of course catching the horny old goat away from the crowd might prove more difficult in that case, but even a wizard has to go pee sometime when he's been drinking.

[Wart]

Hey, it's my contest, I get to make up and interpret the rules. There's another contest running with a considerably wider-open set of rules if you feel so inclined.

It's not "your contest", it's a thread stemming from a post you made on a message board. You do not own the board, you do not moderate the board, you don't own the servers the board are on, this is not your private playground. So stamping your feet and declaring that people aren't replying properly to your OP is silly.

Besides, about a page or so ago, after several winning entries that were a tad silly, I gave up and opened the thread to general comedy and other amusement, so you coming in right now to scream nasty accusations at me, so totally late.
I don't hang out on the rpg.net forums 24 hours a day - I only just saw the thread. (I only visit about once a day.) If you're behaving unreasonably I'm going to call you on it, dude, and you were behaving unreasonably.

[cglasgow]

If I remember right, Shadowdale is strung out quite a bit. The sound of a "wrestling" type brawl is not going to carry that far.

You misremember.

We have to use story continuity for this, as setting continuity doesn't address the topic, but there is at least one canonical instance where a fight on Harper's Hill (which is outside of town on one side) was heard all the way over at Mourngrym's castle (which is outside of town on the OTHER side).

Seriously, a good healthy scream for help will carry over literally most of the entire town /and/ outlyers... and even if it doesn't, other people will relay the call, if it sounds serious enough. That's how the word of emergencies got passed in societies before telephones.

[Random Nerd]

You misremember.

We have to use story continuity for this, as setting continuity doesn't address the topic, but there is at least one canonical instance where a fight on Harper's Hill (which is outside of town on one side) was heard all the way over at Mourngrym's castle (which is outside of town on the OTHER side).

*cough*

Exception: If it's something mentioned /only/ in a tie-in novel, we can forget it. We're sticking to sourcebooks, modules, and Dragon magazine official content only.

[cglasgow]

It's not "your contest", it's a thread stemming from a post you made on a message board. You do not own the board, you do not moderate the board, you don't own the servers the board are on, this is not your private playground. So stamping your feet and declaring that people aren't replying properly to your OP is silly.

*sigh*

Of course it's not my board, and I never claimed it was. I also never threatened moderator action, so claiming that I did is ridiculous. No, worse, it's a flat-out lie.

This is, however, my contest. I asked the question 'Here's a thought experiment. Within these rules, can you achieve this objective?'

Therefore, I have the right to go 'No, that proposed solution does not fulfill the rules, and so does not qualify as a genuine solution to the thought experiment'.

Like I said, nothing stops people from making their own versions of the contest with their own rules, and one guy already has. (The '1.01' thread). AAMOF, he doesn't have *ANY* rules, its totally wide open even if you want to use killer telepathic death mimes.

Go over there and have fun, but quit telling me what to do while simultaneously griping that it's wrong to tell people what to do. You are trying to pick a fight, and I won't have it.

[Grimkrieg]

Guys... I think first we need to take out Elminster's most valuable ally:

CGLASGOW :D

First Cglasgow, then the realms, then Elminster!

(I do not advocate the assassination of Cglasgow, its a joke. No Cglasgows were harmed in the making of this thread; and if they were it had more to do with the nature of the thread than any action I may have taken...)

[cglasgow]

*cough*

Yes, *cough*. *cough* all you want.

As I said, we /have/ to use story continuity to answer his particular question, because otherwise we can't answer it at all, since there is absolutely nothing in the setting canon addressing how far sound carries across Shadowdale -- either yea or nay.

[cglasgow]

Guys... I think first we need to take out Elminster's most valuable ally:

CGLASGOW :D

I'm amazed that I can spend most of an (correction) 800-post thread detailing exactly how much I hate Elminster and why, and suddenly be accused of being his ally simply because I believe in thought experiments that are not entirely rules-free godmoding wankery.

[Broblawsky0]

20th level Wizard.

Stack two Antimagic Fields on top of each other with Extraordinary Concentration, which lets you be immune to the effects of your own Antimagic Field. Lure Elminster out of his tower by Gating in a couple of Balors and having him attack Shadowdale. Greater Teleport on top of him, Shapechange into something with a stupidly high Grapple bonus, Grapple him and stab him to death with a dagger made from that souleating material from Complete Warrior. Use a fragment of his body to produce an Ice Assassin of him, order the Ice Assassin to keep Mind Blank on itself at all times so it won't be detected as such, and run like a coward.

[cglasgow]

But this establishes nothing except that the Bluff and Diplomacy skills are horribly, disgustingly broken.

Agreed. Which is why the modron cried. :)

[Grimkrieg]

I'm amazed that I can spend most of an (correction) 800-post thread detailing exactly how much I hate Elminster and why, and suddenly be accused of being his ally simply because I believe in thought experiments that are not entirely rules-free godmoding wankery.

Its a joke dude :D

[cglasgow]

Sorry, after the last couple of whiny rants about what an awful person I am, my sense of humor took a momentary beating.

[Ben Lehman]

Out of curiosity, if you don't want people to base their solutions on the rules, what do you want them to base their solutions on? Realms canon?

yrs--
--Ben

[Grimkrieg]

People are actually taking what you say, or anything said in this thread, seriously? That may be the funniest thing about it ;)

[JohnB]

"You misremember. "

I didn't read the novel you refer to (I generally thought the novels sucked beaver cheese), I'm thinking of the published map where the distances were clearly far enough to make such sound travel unlikely unless it was *quite* loud. Especially if you choose a windy day and are fighting downwind from likely allies.

In the novel, what kind of fight was it? Clash of arms and attack spells? If so, that is not the kind of sound we are talking about here. If E is gagged quickly, he's lucky to get off one shout. If not, then yeah I can see issues arising.

[drnuncheon]

The Bluff/Diplomacy tactic might also work in a slower and more subtle way.

Step 1) Meet Elminster. You're an incredibly likeable person, so you should be able to get in good.

Step 2) Hang out with the old goat. Watch for any disagreement or signs of trouble between him and his support network.

Step 3) Drop hints. Use your Bluff/Diplomacy subtlely. Separate Elmy from his friends and make him depend on you. Do this slowly so it seems like they're just drifting apart over time. (None of this 'gee, last week Elmy was our best friend and now he hates us!')

Step 4) Smooth over any problems his friends try to cause. "She's just jealous." Make sure everything you do has plausible deniability. Soon it'll be like the boy who cried wolf.

Step 5) You're his best friend. When he gets in trouble, you're the one he calls. You have the proverbial keys to his demiplane. Now proceed with one of your other plans.


If you're female (and you can stand it), add in a romantic relationship. That'll make it even more believable when you pull him away frm his other (beautiful female) friends. You can also use the abovementioned "nookie distraction" technique. And if you're lucky, Elmy will sacrifice himself so that you can get away, never dreaming that you're going to betray him.

J

[Sunhawk]

Yes, but her mom? I don't actually know anyone who has slept with a man who's slept with her mom, but somehow I don't believe she'd be as complacent about that.

Akagi Ritsuko? ^_^

I see that despite my best intentions, this thread is doomed to end in campiness.

To be blunt, you were really bending things to make sure as many plans as possible failed. The antimagic field strategy is quite valid -- declaring it fails because it happens in Shadowdale is a bit of a quibble.

On to the topic:

Observation: The REALLY annoying bit is the Evasion and the hidey-hole.
Suggestion: Ally hidden on Elminster with a reliable method, some way to trace his destination, what-have-you. Create a situation where he does his escape trick, wait for him to leave. Now you need to thoroughly loot and trap his little sanctuary. Bonus points if you can somehow keep any allies from porting in.

Engage with the otherwise valid plan of choice.

[drnuncheon]

Yes, *cough*. *cough* all you want.

As I said, we /have/ to use story continuity to answer his particular question, because otherwise we can't answer it at all, since there is absolutely nothing in the setting canon addressing how far sound carries across Shadowdale -- either yea or nay.

Actually, if there's a canonical map, then you can just use the rules for the Listen check: figure out the DC to hear the fight, and then apply the penalties for distance. What is it, -1 per 10 feet?

EDIT: +5 DC for listener distracted, +1 DC per 10 feet.

Also -10 to checks for being asleep, so if you get him at night, when most people in this peaceful farming village are sawing logs...especially the spellcasters who need it to recover their spells...

J

[Brandi]

I'm amazed that I can spend most of an (correction) 800-post thread detailing exactly how much I hate Elminster and why

I am too.

You know, in most slash fiction, hate is only the preclude to the Truest Love of All.

Maybe we should just use Alter Body to give you the wings right now...

[KreenWarrior]

Two things the modron DM isn't taking into account:

Bluff/Diplomacy are god skills. Why? Because someone with +60 Bluff isn't some chump. He's the goddamn GOD of bluffing, one of the best deceivers and connivers on the planet. On arriving in Creation, he'd immediately Exalt as a Night or Eclipse, no questions asked, because he's that badass at lying. He's, I don't know, Coyote or something. It's a valid archetype, and one not at all reflected in numbers. But a character with that bonus is a threat to Elminster, because he's one of the masters of his craft, even in the FR. Yeah, that's right, D&D characters can eventually reach Exalted levels of power, especially with twinkery. Underestimating them is not a good idea, and breaks suspension of disbelief.

Two, Elminster is not a coward. He is, in fact, noteably arrogant. He's not going to run at the first sign of trouble. Elminster would not run away from some punks he hasn't heard of. If some people try to kill him, Anti-Magic or whatever, he'll assume he can get out of it. Why? Cause this sort of thing happens to him all the time, and he gets through it effortlessly each time. It's sort of a common theme in the novels. Hell, even when stripped of his magic he still went off adventuring. It's his schtick. Assuming he's going to run at the first sign of trouble is a pretty bad violation of his character, and, in fact, is playing him wrong. IMHO, of course.

[Dan Hemmens]

This is, however, my contest. I asked the question 'Here's a thought experiment. Within these rules, can you achieve this objective?'

Therefore, I have the right to go 'No, that proposed solution does not fulfill the rules, and so does not qualify as a genuine solution to the thought experiment'.


You have the right to say "that proposed solution does not fulfill the rules, and so does not qualify as a genuine solution to the thought experiment" only when a proposed solution in fact does not fulfil the rules.

Your rules say "the game is GMed by a Modron" and "Elminster will not convenietly act like a moron".

The rules you are trying to enforce, however, are more like "the game is GMed by Ed Greenwood" and "Elminster will infallibly predict any action taken against him."

You don't want "creative" or "interesting" solutions to this "problem" you want ideas that appeal to you, personally. That's not a thought experiment, it's narcissistic self indulgance.

[Random Nerd]

Come on over to <a href="http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=278075">the other thread</a>. We have telepathic death mimes and everything!

[GrimGent]

Observation: The REALLY annoying bit is the Evasion and the hidey-hole.You know, if he's whisked to that little sanctuary at the slightest sign of danger, is there a way to stop him from getting out of there again?

[Dan Hemmens]

Two things the modron DM isn't taking into account:

Bluff/Diplomacy are god skills. Why? Because someone with +60 Bluff isn't some chump. He's the goddamn GOD of bluffing, one of the best deceivers and connivers on the planet. On arriving in Creation, he'd immediately Exalt as a Night or Eclipse, no questions asked, because he's that badass at lying. He's, I don't know, Coyote or something. It's a valid archetype, and one not at all reflected in numbers. But a character with that bonus is a threat to Elminster, because he's one of the masters of his craft, even in the FR. Yeah, that's right, D&D characters can eventually reach Exalted levels of power, especially with twinkery. Underestimating them is not a good idea, and breaks suspension of disbelief.

You're forgetting that while you're really good at Bluffing, Elminster is, like, Elminster. So he, like, wouldn't buy it because he's, like, Elminster.

Two, Elminster is not a coward. He is, in fact, noteably arrogant. He's not going to run at the first sign of trouble. Elminster would not run away from some punks he hasn't heard of. If some people try to kill him, Anti-Magic or whatever, he'll assume he can get out of it. Why? Cause this sort of thing happens to him all the time, and he gets through it effortlessly each time. It's sort of a common theme in the novels. Hell, even when stripped of his magic he still went off adventuring. It's his schtick. Assuming he's going to run at the first sign of trouble is a pretty bad violation of his character, and, in fact, is playing him wrong. IMHO, of course.

To be fair, since Elminster is a a gratuitous and infallible Mary Sue, it *could* be argued that for him to ever make a mistake, pick a sub-optimal tactic, or indeed be defeated at all, ever, is playing him wrong, and therefore breaks the rules of this contest.

[JohnB]

Question: If Elminster were drained to the last drop by a vampire , could he be resurrected *at all* by an ally?

Just wondering.

Personally I don't see one of his allies lifting a finger to help him once he's undead. In fact, they might finish the job for you. The question is, can vampirism be cured with magic?

[Galandris]

Sorry, double post, the server was busy it said :(

[Galandris]

Hey, it's my contest, I get to make up and interpret the rules. There's another contest running with a considerably wider-open set of rules if you feel so inclined.

Besides, about a page or so ago, after several winning entries that were a tad silly, I gave up and opened the thread to general comedy and other amusement, so you coming in right now to scream nasty accusations at me, so totally late.

You specifically didn't answer the temptative Psionic Dominate attempt.

4 20th level psions telepath, dressed as peasants and not carrying any magic object or device, starting farming in Shadowdale, until they happen to be within 300 feet of Elmo. Surprise round begins. They all cast a Quickened, Overchannelled Psionic Dominate on Elminster. That cost them 23 out of their 343 daily power points, has the effect of a Dominate spell, and has a DC of 29 against Elminster's Will save of +17. He fails on 1-11. The standard action during surprise round is to cast a normal, overchannelled Psionic Dominate for 23 points, at a DC of 32 (which Elminster will fail on 1-14). After the turn of the first psion, he'll have 13,5% chance of being free-willed, and it may come that the four psion must act, leaving him a chance of being free-willed of 0,0332%.

Assuming he's Dominated during the surprise round, the instruction are "Go to the marketplace of Gnalhid and wait". It's quick enough to be a dominate order, that trigger of course his Evasion spell. The rest of the party cast Psionic Greater Teleport (15 power points) to transfer all the party to meet Elminster in Gnahlid (they won't miss him, it's 40 souls) to further contain him. Should they happen to miss him in the surprise round, no worry! Casting a quickened Dominate was the trigger of a Contingencied Antimagic Field. So, when Elmo is able to act, at best before the PC, he'll certainly dismiss the AM field. Anyway, while he dismisses the first, he allows the PC another attempt at Psi dominate him. At the end of a normal round, he'll have 1 chance in ten million of being free-willed... And if someone happen to see the attack, what will he see? The psionic dominate has only a mental display, so the four peasants are only LOOKING at Elminster, and then Elminster teleporting, followed, oddly, by four peasants.

The dominate power in his psionic version, has a concentration duration. Changing it to a 23 days duration would enhance Elminster chance of surviving up to 1 in 10 000. So, of course, once one has succeeded in controlling Elminster, his concentration shall never end. He'll follow the teleporter to Gnahlid, then to another place dictated, slowly, to Elminster (a timeless plane is preferrable), and, with the help of a ring of sustenance, spend the rest of his days dominating Elmo. A relay could be done, with the dominating psion convincing Elminster to fail his saving throw against the next power. A bunch of psion is bound to succeed if shit happens, and the timeless plane will have been selected to be null magic anyway, in case something happens. Convincing him to let a zombie hit him with a sap would be more difficult (tantamount to a suicidal act, and out of scope for psionic dominate).


Also, you didn't tell us if Microcosm would trigger the contingency, nullifying my first attempt to quicken attack and microcosm him. He's perfectly able to think, only, he's living in own dreamland...

[Aubri]

Here's a little rules-abuse trick I saw over on the D&D boards.

First, be a half-ogre. Large size, +6 strength, -2 int, -2 chr, +1 LA. You take 5 levels of barbarian for +5 BAB, 2 feats, and rage (+4 strength) twice a day.
Then you take the Warhulk PrC from the Miniatures Handbook, which requires BAB 5+, large size, and power attack. You get +2 Str per level, boulder throwing (which lets you use Str instead of Dex to hit and deals 2d8 damage, and can hit 4 close-together targets in one throw. Stick with it for 10 levels.
You easily qualify by now for the Hulking Hurler PrC from the Complete Warrior, a 3 level PrC whose relevant ability is "Really Throw Anything", which lets you toss anything up to a light load for you, and the capstone power that lets you throw anything up to a medium load and two size categories larger than you. Thus far, our training can take place out in the open, more or less.

At this point, you are 18th level with, assuming 18 Str to start, a Strength score of 52, which we can easily boost to 62 with assorted magic items. This brings your medium load to 265,728 lbs. According to the Complete Warrior, a large thrown object deals 5d6 for 400 lbs. plus 1d6 per additional 200 lbs. Thus, an 8-ft. wide ball of lead--which should fit within his size limit--hurled by this character will deal 1331d6+39 damage, averaging 4697 damage.

Now, we need to kill Elminster. We obtain a pair of appropirately-sized boots of flying--nothing suspicious there--and a large quantity of lead, which shouldn't be difficult to form into our cannonball. Wear a pair of Eyes of the Eagle as you fly above the town, until you spot Elminster on the street. Then drink your potion of True Strike and meteor drive the giant lead ball onto the unsuspecting wizard! If the direct damage isn't enough, you can look up the falling object rules from the DMG.

Ah, but that doesn't take care of his spirit, does it? In that case, we'll have to lean over to Eberron and get the sphere enchanted as a Keeper's Fang, which sucks in the soul of the target after they're killed with it.

...or we can just go buy some more lead.

[Silent Wayfarer]

Hulking Hurler has a pathetic resistance to any of the myriad ways high level wizards have for utterly owning a non-magical character. Use Death Blossom Psion, Infinite Dragons, Telepathic Death Mimes or Pun-pun for much faster results.

[domino]

Should give it a Great Fortification breastplate or something, in case it crits itself.

Too expensive for a monster type that is immune to crits. :D

[AmesJainchill]

If you have a character Shapechange into a Chaos Beast, and then hit Elminster (say an ally uses a Wish or Limited Wish or maybe that Fatespinner PrC) to boink up his save for the hit...would going to Wis 0 and turning into a Chaos Beast count for his Evasion spell?

[Jackob]

One way would require some 4th-wall breaking, but if we have a DM who likes to think logically...

Talk to the gods. For a party of 15th-level adventurers in the Reals, this seems a trifling enough matter. Start with the ones who really don't like Mystra/Elminster and then ask them why they are behaving so stupidly, illogically and seemingly against their natures. Phrase it better with maxed-out Diplomacy. Then move on to the LN gods and show the the many ways Mystra is breaking/bending the rules. Appeal to other gods and convince them that Mystra is insane/dangerous/not fit to be a goddess due to being under the influence of someone who is, in the end, a mortal. It seems the only reason Elmonster and Mystra get away with this shit is because the writers are constantly portraying the others gods as either acting very much against their natures and/or frightfully stupid and/or surprisingly forgiving.
In the end, you should end up with, what, 75% of the gods on your side? With more of them promising to remain neutral in the affair. Now, they could go to town on Elmonster and Mystra, but it would be better if they'd plead their case to AO and tell him that they believe Mystra is fucking things up because of a mere mortal (which, to AO, is what Elmonster is).
Of course, this tactic relies on the DM letting the gods realize how odd they are behaving.

Reading this thread has led me to make some observations:
1) How can Elminster score with all these chicks? What's his Cha score? I mean, unless there's something odd going on, it seems a Level 15 Bard shouldn't have any trouble outclassing him in the old seduction department and since it's clear that all the women, including Mystra, that Elmonster is banging are amazing shallow, it should be easy to turn them on him.
But what is it that makes him so irresisible? I mean, it's quite clear that none of the ladies are really in love with him - they and him are just fuck-buddies. Otherwise, they wouldn't agree to open relationsships AND him being away so often. So does Elminster's Charisma, Constitution, sexual Skills and sex-related Feats make him some kind of super-stud? Looking at his picture, I can't see many ladies falling for his looks.

2) It's funny how the players know the game so incredibly much more than the writers/developers. The only way they writers can make Elmonster so powerful is to pile on non-canonical power with a handwave. Whereas if you left it to the players, they could easily come up with something a lot more powerful with less levels. It's a bit of a cheap, cheating cop-out in my book, in the level of Marcus Vitel's Magical Pin.

3) Are there any high-powered here in the Elminster Mythology who doesn't come off as very shallow plus either arrogant, self-centered, overconfident or all? Despite their good alignments and us supposing to see them as great heroes? I can barely see how Realsmfolk who get to know them might like them, but we are supposed to? How!?! Are any of them written in any way sympathetic?

[drnuncheon]

But what is it that makes him so irresisible? I mean, it's quite clear that none of the ladies are really in love with him - they and him are just fuck-buddies. Otherwise, they wouldn't agree to open relationsships AND him being away so often. So does Elminster's Charisma, Constitution, sexual Skills and sex-related Feats make him some kind of super-stud?

Custom spells, dude. Mordenkainen's Lubrication got nothin' on the Old Man of Shadowdale.

J

[Jackob]

Custom spells, dude. Mordenkainen's Lubrication got nothin' on the Old Man of Shadowdale.

J

So he has to cast spells to satisfy women... that's really sad and pathetic, eh?

[Nahualt]

lol I have completely read the thread..and I can only say (besides the Uber Pun-pun and Psion Builds.), that Womble and Ben Lehman are the winners.

I know that Cglasglow will object to this..but we all know he stands biased on this contest. :rolleyes:

And KUDOS to the eternal Saping zombie!

[Cassandra]

Whats to stop an assassin with a bunch of int and such buffing gear from tracking him down and just death attacking him once with a soultrapping dagger then destorying the dagger in some way?

[Jess Heinig]

Spellthief's "steal spell effect" ability to suppress his Evasion. The rest is just dealing damage.

[cglasgow]

Whats to stop an assassin with a bunch of int and such buffing gear from tracking him down and just death attacking him once with a soultrapping dagger then destorying the dagger in some way?

As soon as the soul leaves the body, body and soultrapping dagger *BAMF* right to the you-know-where.

Oh, and strictly speaking, people in the Realms (especially bad guys) don't *know* about the butt-saving contingency, but the players of this thought experiment kinda have to know, so.

[Shining Dragon]

Step 1: Get a katana. Nothing beats a katana. Elminister will surely die...

Step 2: Tie a tarrasque to the katana. The levels of total awesomeness will 'splode Elminster's mind when he sees the katanasque...

[Galandris]

As soon as the soul leaves the body, body and soultrapping dagger *BAMF* right to the you-know-where.

Oh, and strictly speaking, people in the Realms (especially bad guys) don't *know* about the butt-saving contingency, but the players of this thought experiment kinda have to know, so.

It's safe to assume that Elminster didn't live 1100 years without being a complete paranoid. At the smallest sign of danger, the only logical course of action he could take would be to flee to secret location to analyze the situation and prepare a counter strike (and get time to understand why his spy network didn't predict the attack). President Bush, who isn't known for its 27 Int score, is doing that exactly, it's safe to assume that Elminster will, too. So preparing a strike team to take care of teleportation contingency or quickened teleport is the least they could do. A simple teleport would do: Elminster certainly prefers risking to get stuck in the Astral Plane than stay around an assaulting group of unknown power.

[cglasgow]

One, irrelevant President Bush asides are so totally not the way to interest me in an argument. Save politics for Tangency, plz. My own online political debate experiences are all uniformly horrid in retrospect.

Two, godmoding yourself 'I make a contingency plan' also doesn't interest me very much in the merits of your argument. *How* are you planning? *What* are you planning? By what means do you actually *find* the Safehold? Etc, etc.

At least the one gentleman earlier showed how, with the rogue stone and the gemjump and the sneaking it into Elminster's pocket.

[Galandris]

Detect Magic, always-on, line of sight, remember?

Having an active magical effect on you of any kind makes you glow in the dark to Elminster. Which rules out Hide skill, 'cause you kinda can't do that while carrying a torch. :)

Is that an official ruling? In my group, we routinely use Detect Magic as low-cost Detect Invisbility, 'cause most of the invisible things are magic or outsider, and striking at moving magic aura where nothing visible stands is usually a good idea. We thought it was pure twinkery, but are we legal?

[Galandris]

Two, godmoding yourself 'I make a contingency plan' also doesn't interest me very much in the merits of your argument. *How* are you planning? *What* are you planning? By what means do you actually *find* the Safehold? Etc, etc.


There is no need to find the safehold. Elminster will get out by himself. Don't ask for plans if you don't want to read them (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=6112197&postcount=278).

[cglasgow]

Is that an official ruling?

That /Detect Magic/ lets you see magical auras as visibly glowing? Yes. That you can't hide in shadows while carrying an active light source? Also yes.

In my group, we routinely use Detect Magic as low-cost Detect Invisbility, 'cause most of the invisible things are magic or outsider, and striking at moving magic aura where nothing visible stands is usually a good idea. We thought it was pure twinkery, but are we legal?

"Invisibility does not thwart detect spells."

That's from the SRD.

Note that normally, Detect Magic requires you to take a concentrate action to use (Elminster sleazes aruond this limitation due to twink Chosen of Mystra template), while See Invisibility simply augments your normal sight and doesn't take any actions. This is why See Invisibility is still used, and Detect Magic isn't used all the time.

But sure, your trick works, if you're willing to take an action to deliberately check for magical auras.

[AmesJainchill]

But sure, your trick works, if you're willing to take an action to deliberately check for magical auras.

That's what cohorts with Rary's Telepathic Bond are for. Mix in Silent Image (or, perhaps, Dancing Lights) with another cohort marking where the bad guys are.

[cglasgow]

BTW, I confess to never having actually looked at Pun-Pun the Kobold because I thought it was just a bad joke and not really real.

I finally went and looked.

......................................................

HOLY SHAZNAK. :eek:

And the sad thing is, its entirely book legal.

Pun-Pun wins.

And I need a drink.

[apparition13]

We were discussing what he should do rather than simply head straight into an antimagic field.

And assuming he's already in it? As said, you're in Shadowdale. He can call in some allies simply by yelling "HELP!" at the top of his lungs, they live literally within earshot.

For that matter, one wonders why they're not showing up already, given that Storm can simply look out her window and see the Elminster mugging in progress.

(Or Sylune -- who's a ghost, and really has *nothing* better to do than hang around and haunt Shadowdale like a nonsleeping invisible guardian 99% of the time. The other 1%, she's running nonsleeping invisible stakeout on somewhere else for one of her sisters.)
If you changed the location to somewhere other than Shadowdale, eg:

"Oh Elmo, could we go somewhere romantic? I remember this beach on the sea of shining stars..."

what would you rule on WombleHunter's strike force?

[Gogmagog]

I got about half-way through this before running out of endurance. It has pretty much boiled down to two things.

1.Someone posting how they would kill Elminster. These posts can range from good,bad and stupid.
2.The post promptly being shot down via fiat.

[cglasgow]

If you changed the location to somewhere other than Shadowdale, eg:

"Oh Elmo, could we go somewhere romantic? I remember this beach on the sea of shining stars..."

what would you rule on WombleHunter's strike force?

I would rule that nobody in Shadowdale could hear the fight. :D

Of course, 'lure him away and then jump him' is something that's been tried on him before, so he's legitimately kinda twitchy about that.

Also note that a lot of the time he works out the urge by going a-courting while disguised as someone else, so that would-be seducers don't know its Elminster they're boffing.

... sad, I know. He is. Well, Greenwood is.

[cglasgow]

I got about half-way through this before running out of endurance. It has pretty much boiled down to two things.

1.Someone posting how they would kill Elminster. These posts can range from good,bad and stupid.
2.The post promptly being shot down via fiat.

Oh, for the love of God, I've already ruled at least four of them as qualifying. Why can't people *read* before they shoot off their complaints?

[apparition13]

I would rule that nobody in Shadowdale could hear the fight. :D

Of course, 'lure him away and then jump him' is something that's been tried on him before, so he's legitimately kinda twitchy about that.

Also note that a lot of the time he works out the urge by going a-courting while disguised as someone else, so that would-be seducers don't know its Elminster they're boffing.

... sad, I know. He is. Well, Greenwood is.
I'm thinking a female version of Ben Lehmans half-elf seducer might get the old man's goat.

[Dan Hemmens]

Oh, for the love of God, I've already ruled at least four of them as qualifying. Why can't people *read* before they shoot off their complaints?

It's exactly this attitude which is pissing people off though.

You don't get to "rule" what works and what doesn't: you're not the GM here, the hypothetical Modron is.

The Modron does not necessarily agree with your ruling on Antimagic Fields showing up to Detect Magic (an antimagic field is *not* a Dead Magic Zone). The Modron does not necessarily agree with your interpretation of the Bluff skill.

Your rules stated that a particular set of stats should be used. In that particular set of stats Elminster has a crappy Sense Motive. You, however declared that "The Modron" would rule that Elminster could use his other skills in place of Sense Motive if it suited him.

[cglasgow]

*edit -- post deleted*

Didn't you get a mod warning on the other thread to stop complaining about this?

[Scarabus]

Oh, for the love of God, I've already ruled at least four of them as qualifying. Why can't people *read* before they shoot off their complaints?

It'd probably help if you were more polite about this stuff. Basically, by now many people are getting the impression that you are calling anyone who comes up with ideas you don't think are suitable a moron, an ignoramus and lacking in taste.

I get the impression your rulings are basically having the opposite effect of what their intent is. After all, that's the kind of stuff you're not really interested in discussing, right? I mean, yeah, the thread would run nice and smoothly if everyone just accepted you as the final arbiter, but it's pretty clear by now that that's just not gonna happen. Why not talk more about the ideas you liked, get some discussion going about those, instead of getting drawn into arguments over which skills apply when and what not?

[cglasgow]

It'd probably help if you were more polite about this stuff.

It would also help if people stopped accusing me of being or doing things that I've never actually done. (Such as, oh, supposedly shooting down all posts by fiat. Which, y'know, obviously not.)

It really would.

(Add) I would really love to have polite discussions with people. And as soon as I can log on without having yet another poster pop up talking about my alleged personal and mental and imaginary flaws, a polite discussion is what I'll be having.

[Dan Hemmens]

*edit -- post deleted*

Didn't you get a mod warning on the other thread to stop complaining about this?

No, all of us got a mod warning to stop sniping at each other.

[cglasgow]

There is no need to find the safehold. Elminster will get out by himself. Don't ask for plans if you don't want to read them (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=6112197&postcount=278).

Elminster can snap himself free of any and all external compulsions that are already on him by using the Silver Fire. See post #2 in this thread.

So you get a mental grip on him... next turn, it breaks. Immediately after that, either he puts up the /mind shielding/ effect (which, IIRC, blocks Dominate), throws up a /mind blank/ spell (which almost definitely blocks it), or simply runs like the clappers.

[Bradford C. Walker]

Would it not be wiser to find a way to trip the Evasion, and then seal El inside his sanctuary permanently somehow? It doesn't matter if he lives so long as he's stuck in his hidey-hole forever. Find a way to block all communication/travel in and out, and you've got the job done.

[Levi]

No, all of us got a mod warning to stop sniping at each other.

Bingo.

For those of you that failed to read the note on the last thread:

Knock it off. ALL of you.

[cglasgow]

Would it not be wiser to find a way to trip the Evasion, and then seal El inside his sanctuary permanently somehow? It doesn't matter if he lives so long as he's stuck in his hidey-hole forever. Find a way to block all communication/travel in and out, and you've got the job done.

I like the lateral thinking, but, some practical difficulties to be overcome are:

It's a demiplane that he constructed, so, IIRC, the only person who can screw with its planar access conditions is him.

Not to mention, given that he has a copy of all his spellbooks in there, a full laboratory in there, ample spell components in there, and food, air, water, etc. to live on indefinitely in there(*) (he was not stupid enough to build an enclosed space without a life support system)...

... if you research some spell to lock him in there, assuming you somehow could in the first place, he just starts researching a spell to break yours.

Given that he's a much more powerful and experienced wizard, with a much higher Spellcraft, than non-epic you, the odds of you winning the research battle, not good.



(*) Heck, a couple of the right ioun stones in a box fixes that problem.

[AmesJainchill]

Actually, all you'd have to do is keep him from returning to Toril's Prime Material Plane. Which might not be that hard...

Sure, he could Astral Project, but all you need to stop that is Protection From X.

[cglasgow]

Actually, all you'd have to do is keep him from returning to Toril's Prime Material Plane. Which might not be that hard...

Sure, he could Astral Project, but all you need to stop that is Protection From X.

Not really. He's capable of casting Gate and Worldwalk (custom Realms spell) as well as simple Plane Shift and Astral Project, for one thing.

For another, and I was just reminded of this, the Safehold already has several permanent one-way planar portals leading out of it anyway (if I remember correctly, the exit points were "His tower in Shadowdale", "The Temple of Mystra in Evermeet", "Ed Greenwood's House" (that one's obviously no longer valid in 3e), and "To Be Determined By The DM"), to allow him to return to Faerun even if for some reason he didn't want to use any planar travelling spells or items.

One-way portals, leading out only, mind. (I think the portal leading to his bedroom in his tower might be a two-way, but its individually keyed, and nobody but him and maybe Lhaeo knows about it anyway.)

[AmesJainchill]

Not really. He's capable of casting Gate and Worldwalk (custom Realms spell) as well as simple Plane Shift and Astral Project, for one thing.

As was said elsewhere, FR is separated from all other Primes. There's nowhere else to go with Plane Shift, if we're talking about keeping him off Toril's Prime.

Sure, it would be a real bitch to keep him out of the gates...or tamper with them to keep them from letting him through, but it's one option.

[cglasgow]

As was said elsewhere, FR is separated from all other Primes. There's nowhere else to go with Plane Shift, if we're talking about keeping him off Toril's Prime.

Toril does still have Outer Planes of its own, if not the standard Great Wheel outer planes. Also Inner Planes, Planes of Shadow, etc.

Several of those Outer Planes are places where Elminster would find a very cordial reception and help in getting back home.

As for gate-tampering... I don't think you *can* tamper with a one-way portal from the wrong end, as it literally only exists on one side. Somebody else check me on that if I'm wrong.

[Galandris]

Elminster can snap himself free of any and all external compulsions that are already on him by using the Silver Fire. See post #2 in this thread.


You mentionned he could only do that once per round using no action. That's the point of hitting him potentially 16 times with the same spell: he might save a lot, contigent dispel one (supposing that you can stack a contingency with Elminster's Evasion), silver fire one away... he'll still have a very low chance of succeeding (less than 0,3% in fact). And once he's dominated for good, the "wait for me" could be explicitely developped as "wait for me doing nothing". I mentionned that in my first version, but didn't bother to reprint it. So on subsequent rounds, he'll be doing nothing, not casually dispelling your effects.

[cglasgow]

Ummm, no, one usage of Silver Fire dispels all compulsions that are on him at the time he uses the Silver Fire, simultaneously.

If he simultaneously had 500 separate bindings, charms, restraints, etc., on him -- one invoking of Silver Fire, *POOF*, all 500, they go snap.

[AmesJainchill]

Toril does still have Outer Planes of its own, if not the standard Great Wheel outer planes. Also Inner Planes, Planes of Shadow, etc.

Several of those Outer Planes are places where Elminster would find a very cordial reception and help in getting back home.

As for gate-tampering... I don't think you *can* tamper with a one-way portal from the wrong end, as it literally only exists on one side. Somebody else check me on that if I'm wrong.

Yeah, I'm sure a god could get him back to the Prime...but that might piss off a few other deities, that kind of favor. Risky move.

You could block teleportation...and you could could probably crack the destination for the gate(s) with a spell to do so--if it's based on caster level checks, and hell, even research a specific gate-blocking spell.

[Galandris]

Ummm, no, one usage of Silver Fire dispels all compulsions that are on him at the time he uses the Silver Fire, simultaneously.

If he simultaneously had 500 separate bindings, charms, restraints, etc., on him -- one invoking of Silver Fire, *POOF*, all 500, they go snap.

PS1 : successfully dominate him
Elm: silver fire as an immediate action taken outside his turn
PS2: ok, my turn, he has expanded his silver fire, let's dominate him.

Of course, Elm can't wait the end of the round to dispell all the effects, since at this time he'll be under a compulsion not to do that. His use of silver fire would certainly dispell all restraints like a charm, a suggestion and a feeblemind being cast upon him that would happen to be in force at the same time, but not subsequent casting of the power in the same round.

[cglasgow]

> Yeah, I'm sure a god could get him back to the Prime...but that might
> piss off a few other deities, that kind of favor. Risky move.

Ummm, not really. Elminster's one of the chief servants of Mystra anyway.

She's not allowed to help, by the rules of this contest, but she still has her own divine allies and assocaites, which means their squats are 'friendly ground' to Elminster. It's not like Elminster's smashing you with deities, he's just passing through their turf on his way from point A to point B.

Also, which deities would it offend and why? I really can't grasp why this would cause trouble in Heaven, even if his name were 'Joe Random Adventurer'.

> You could block teleportation...and you could could crack the
> destination for the gate, and hell, even research a specific
> gate-blocking spell.

Yes, but you'd have to be /in/ the Safehold to cast a gateward upon the gate, as that's where the gate is.

As for blocking teleportation and all... how you are blocking travel from 'the Safehold to anywhere on Toril'? I mean, you can dimensionally ward a certain location against anybody coming in, sure, but the planet?

[AmesJainchill]

Ummm, not really. Elminster's one of the chief servants of Mystra anyway.

She's not allowed to help, by the rules of this contest, but she still has her own divine allies and assocaites, which means their squats are 'friendly ground' to Elminster. It's not like Elminster's smashing you with deities, he's just passing through their turf on his way from point A to point B.

Also, which deities would it offend and why? I really can't grasp why this would cause trouble in Heaven, even if his name were 'Joe Random Adventurer'.

Yes, but you'd have to be /in/ the Safehold to cast a gateward upon the gate, as that's where the gate is.

As for blocking teleportation and all... how you are blocking travel from 'the Safehold to anywhere on Toril'? I mean, you can dimensionally ward a certain location against anybody coming in, sure, but the planet?

Gee, the evil deities who might not want Elminster around mucking things up anymore? They might object to him being returned to the Prime by a deity's own power, but I've abandoned that plan. Too impractical.


The gate DOES go to one specific location, does it not? Each one goes to one specific spot? You can't just change them however you want?

Okay, here's the plan.
Follow Elmo to the Safehold.
Enter it, trace where his gates go, stake them out, and...
Stop anyone from leaving Safehold--ever. Bar planar travel of any kind.
Force Elmo back into the Safehold, he's trapped. Trapped in his own panic room.
Not a very crunchy solution, but a Gatecrasher would be useful.

[cglasgow]

> Gee, the evil deities who might not want Elminster around mucking
> things up anymore? They might object to him being returned to the
> Prime by a deity's own power, but I've abandoned that plan.

I wasn't even thinking of a deity's own power.

Just Elminster using already existing permanent planar portals. There are those around, after all. To and from the Outer Planes. So, pick an Outer Plane where you know they'll let you in, walk there, go to a portal, jump in. If you don't know where a handy portal is, the locals will, ask around.

[snip]
> Follow Elmo to the Safehold.

He gets there by planar travelling. And not walking astrally or etherealy either but *bamf*.

Also, his tower has anti-teleport and anti-planar-transport wards that selectively let him (or other people who know the subvocalized command word) through, but nobody else. His Safehold has similar warding.

> Enter it, trace where his gates go, stake them out, and...
> Stop anyone from leaving Safehold--ever. Bar planar travel of any
> kind.

Ummm... how?

[snip]
> Not a very crunchy solution, but a Gatecrasher would be
> useful.

Ah, Gatecrashers.

OK, that can get you into the Safehold -- the Gatecrasher can indeed detect, and force open, a two-way portal... and the one in Elminster's tower bedroom would count.

(The one-way gates, OTOH, only exist on one side -- the Safehold side -- so you can't find or open them at the wrong ends, unless they're already in use at that exact moment.)

Of course, as soon as you arrive there, you start getting pounded on by the permanently invisible golems and various multilayered spell triggers, meanwhile various mystic alarms are going off telling Elminster "SOMEBODY DONE GOT IN THE SAFEHOUSE, BOSS!", so he'll know that the next he goes in there, he'd better come equipped like he's walking into the ambush from hell.

[AmesJainchill]

I wasn't even thinking of a deity's own power.

Just Elminster using already existing permanent planar portals. There are those around, after all. To and from the Outer Planes. So, pick an Outer Plane where you know they'll let you in, walk there, go to a portal, jump in. If you don't know where a handy portal is, the locals will, ask around.

What.
The.
Fuck.

So...am I incorrect in thinking that an infinite amount of celestials/demons/devils/whatever could be brought to Toril? Just like *that*?

If these portals aren't the focus of constant efforts to destroy or subvert by the numerous evil factions on Toril, I would not be very surprised. You could have an entire campaign based around the influence of such portals on the local terrain, populations, power bases...

...Wow, just wow. That's really out there.

I'm going to bow out now, and have nothing to do with any FR campaign for a long, long time. Probably forever.

Of course, as soon as you arrive there, you start getting pounded on by the permanently invisible golems and various multilayered spell triggers, meanwhile various mystic alarms are going off telling Elminster "SOMEBODY DONE GOT IN THE SAFEHOUSE, BOSS!", so he'll know that the next he goes in there, he'd better come equipped like he's walking into the ambush from hell.

Of course, if you trap him there, whoever is inside is a small sacrifice to get rid of him.

[cglasgow]

> So...am I incorrect in thinking that an infinite amount of
> celestials/demons/devils/whatever could be brought to Toril? Just like
> *that*?

Technically, yes... but that *does* get deities filing complaints against each other. With large, blunt objects.

Massed outsiders invasions on Toril, there are rules against that kinda thing. Even the few places where a permanent open portal did allow a fiend invasion -- Myth Drannor, Hellgate Keep - bindings and injunctions were laid on to keep the fiends bound within the immediate area of the gate terminus, and not allowed out onto the rest of the Prime. The rest of the time they have to be summoned or called, as per usual.

Elminster, OTOH, is a Prime native, and can thus walk through a portal to the Prime all he wants.

[KreenWarrior]

What.
The.
Fuck.

So...am I incorrect in thinking that an infinite amount of celestials/demons/devils/whatever could be brought to Toril? Just like *that*?

If these portals aren't the focus of constant efforts to destroy or subvert by the numerous evil factions on Toril, I would not be very surprised. You could have an entire campaign based around the influence of such portals on the local terrain, populations, power bases...

...Wow, just wow. That's really out there.

I'm going to bow out now, and have nothing to do with any FR campaign for a long, long time. Probably forever.



Of course, if you trap him there, whoever is inside is a small sacrifice to get rid of him.
That's how the D&D cosmology works, you have portals to the different planes, including the Prime Material.

[AmesJainchill]

That's how the D&D cosmology works, you have portals to the different planes, including the Prime Material.

Not, as far as I know, permanently, from the Prime, to the Outer Planes. Not mentioned anywhere in *my* copy of the Manual of the Planes, as far as I remember. Using the Astral or some other transitive plane, yes, portals to almost anywhere from the Astral.

Permanently to Outer Planes to and from the Prime? Gate doesn't even do that.

Like I said, not as far as I ever heard of.

[cglasgow]

Portals like the ones we're describing were first invented in Planescape, and carried over into 3e Manual of the Planes.

[AmesJainchill]

Portals like the ones we're describing were first invented in Planescape, and carried over into 3e Manual of the Planes.

I don't understand. What should this mean to me?

[cglasgow]

You were wondering where they came from, yes? So I listed.

[Random Nerd]

That the idea of such portals, rather than being unique to the Realms, derives from Planescape, a D&D setting that frankly rather rocks.

[AmesJainchill]

That the idea of such portals, rather than being unique to the Realms, derives from Planescape, a D&D setting that frankly rather rocks.

No, see, you're not quite understanding me:

It's not the fact that there are portals between planes.

It's that there are portals that are:

A) From the Prime to the Outer/Lower Planes.
B) Allow free and open movement beteen those planes.

Loads of portals on transitive planes to other planes or between Outer, Inner or Transitive Planes, sure. That's fine. They're other planes.

Portals like that screw things up royally on the Prime material. At least, IMO they would.

A portal to a Good Outer Plane that you can bring all the celestials you want through?

This is a major target for evil creatures to destroy or attack.

Instead of taking a powerful spell by a valued spellcaster...it takes...nothing at all.

Evil creatures will try and match this with a portal of their own...and all of a sudden you've got CR 6 demons and devils running around like it's nothing, peasants and common soldiers dying like flies, not to mention the effects on the wildlife and the terrain the outsiders will have if they get to...

...see my point? Land around the portal turns into a major war zone. Big screwup.

Sorry.

And with that done with...[/threadjack]

[Galandris]

Another method would be to inflict him 20 (FRCS version) negative levels. The wizard should equip themselves with Nystul Undetectable Aura'ed gloves of dexterity +6, and NUA'ed Rod of Maximize Metamagic disguised as gardening implements...

On would be casting first a Mordenkainen's Disjunction to remove any magical protection Elminster might have, including his escape spell, while the 3 other mages cast empowered, maximized Enervation (each doing 4+1d4/2 negative levels, so at least 5, provided one succeed at a ranged touch attack vs an AC of 17. With a BAB of +10, the wizards only need a +6 bonus from Dex and Weapon Forus(Ray), so it can be done without too much hassle (only select very dexterous wizards, or make them wear an appropriate garb to boost dexterity with Nystul undetectable aura cast on it, and you'll only fail on a 1). And everyone cast quickened, empowered, maximized enervation as a quick action (possible with the Easy Metamagic (quicken) or a Sudden Empower feat from Complete Arcane).

Elminster would loose 5 or 6 level per ray, with 7 attacks launched, each failing only on a one, during the surprise round. Only 4 of them need to actually work to deprive him of levels, making him die. The probability of it not happening is 0.000625. And even if it happens, he'll certainly be at a -15 -10 penalty on all action, and lost most of his high-level spells: his only action could be to run for help, but it is unlikely he'll find some within one round (our wizard cast a quickened dimension door to keep in range, then the other repeat the enervation attack to finish him and teleport away. Having him dead without his escape spell active, it's time to prevent resurrection... Casting Animate Dead transforms Elmo in a Zombie. Everyone Plane Shift to a plane where a portal to a magicless plane has been opened. The zombie crosses it, and the wizards destroys that portal.

He could Dimension Door away using his pipe, so maybe it would be wiser, once he's been Disjuncted, to cast a quickened Dimensional Anchor at him (first PC action) while the 3 other stack enervations at him (6 attacks, an expected 20 to 30 negative levels could be bestowed. With no spellcasting to speak of, and anchored there, our epic wizard could only run or use his silver fire to blast at one of the attackers. The remaining ones (assuming he could down one of them in his action) cast a flurry of negative levels, finishing him off, cast another Disjunction on the body, Animate him, Greater Teleport away.

No Resurrection can happen to un undead. The zombie must be destroyed first. In a null magic plane, no magical detection can happen. No portal can be opened, there is no way one could locate the zombie and get there, if detection was possible... One may rule that a Wish could exceed the requirement listed for a normal wish, but then, there is no way to kill anyone once and for all.

[Mr Adventurer]

You know, despite all the bitching in this thread, I would like to see whether my plan works.

If cglasgow or anyone else would like to actually run a combat between Elminster and my party, I would be up for it. We'll have to agree on the battlefield (probably not Shadowdale, for ex), which I might need some help with given my imperfect knowledge of FR. Then we post our combatants in their entirety: character sheets, right down to spells prepared and equipment carried on that day. We could use Invisible Castle for die rolls. It'd probably go in the AP forum.

[Jon Chung]

You know, despite all the bitching in this thread, I would like to see whether my plan works.

If cglasgow or anyone else would like to actually run a combat between Elminster and my party, I would be up for it. We'll have to agree on the battlefield (probably not Shadowdale, for ex), which I might need some help with given my imperfect knowledge of FR. Then we post our combatants in their entirety: character sheets, right down to spells prepared and equipment carried on that day. We could use Invisible Castle for die rolls. It'd probably go in the AP forum.

Ah, I assume my infinite-loop builds are not invited? :)

[riprock]

Step 1: Get a katana. Nothing beats a katana. Elminister will surely die...

Step 2: Tie a tarrasque to the katana. The levels of total awesomeness will 'splode Elminster's mind when he sees the katanasque...

1 Laugh Point, 1 Sigged-in-a-Heartbeat Point.

These threads are providing me with better sig fodder than I've had in many a moon...

[riprock]

So...am I incorrect in thinking that an infinite amount of celestials/demons/devils/whatever could be brought to Toril? Just like *that*?

If these portals aren't the focus of constant efforts to destroy or subvert by the numerous evil factions on Toril, I would not be very surprised. You could have an entire campaign based around the influence of such portals on the local terrain, populations, power bases...


Planar gates don't have to be limited in usefulness to travel for sentients.

Consider the Elemental Plane of Fire. It's got lots of burning lakes of hot stuff.

Consider making a wand that can be opened or closed as a standard action. When it's open, it's a small gate to the bottom of a lake on the Elemental Plane of Fire. Instant flame-thrower, no charges to wear out. (Possibly you need a permanent wall of force so that the high-pressure burning liquid doesn't fall on the wand-holder, but the DM can work out the details. The point is that gates can provide a handy way to effectively do unlimited damage for a fixed cost.)

Why bother with a wand of fireballs? Just open the valve when you want fire and close the valve when you don't.

And for putting out fires you don't want -- a similar valve to the demi-plane of extremely cold icy slush...

[riprock]

... other mages cast empowered, maximized Enervation (each doing 4+1d4/2 negative levels, .... Only 4 of them need to actually work to deprive him of levels, making him die. The probability of it not happening is 0.000625. ... once he's been Disjuncted, to cast a quickened Dimensional Anchor at him (first PC action) while the 3 other stack enervations at him...

No Resurrection can happen to un undead. The zombie must be destroyed first. In a null magic plane, no magical detection can happen.

Outstanding. In terms of sheer inventiveness, that ranks up there, even higher than the uber-Diplomacy attack IMHO.

This plan uses low-level elements to beat a high-level menace. That wins my admiration for doing more with less. It's a very elegant plan. It's just as elegant as many real-life plans to do real-life practical things. This is the kind of tactical thinking that makes me enjoy wargames even when I lose to a good plan. I love good, elegant planning.

Personally, I still like Pun-Pun, the Gnome of Infinite Dragons, and the Psion with Infinite Actions, and the Eberron Artificer with infinite action points. Those are fun for me on some deep and twisted level of my id. I've never seen a real-life plan involving infinite loops (other than proposed perpetual motion machines) so Pun-Pun and the other rules abuses satisfy my desire for something truly extreme.

[Uthred]

The rules you are trying to enforce, however, are more like "the game is GMed by Ed Greenwood" and "Elminster will infallibly predict any action taken against him."

Isnt Elminster's intelligence somewhere around 30, putting him well into the divine ranks for intelligence. So a divinely intelligent, millenium old arch-mage who is aware that his life is always in danger shouldnt be able to predict more or less any action taken against him?

As I mentioned in the other thread I think people are seriously underestimating the intelligence of both Elminster and all those who failed to assasinate him previously and failed.

[Uthred]

Question: If Elminster were drained to the last drop by a vampire , could he be resurrected *at all* by an ally?

Just wondering.

Personally I don't see one of his allies lifting a finger to help him once he's undead. In fact, they might finish the job for you. The question is, can vampirism be cured with magic?

I know it can because it came up in a game I was in but I cant recall exactly how at the moment (I think it involves the ressurection spell)

[GrimGent]

Consider making a wand that can be opened or closed as a standard action. When it's open, it's a small gate to the bottom of a lake on the Elemental Plane of Fire.By the way, that's exactly how Imagery works in Mordant's Need by Stephen Donaldson.

[Uthred]

On would be casting first a Mordenkainen's Disjunction to remove any magical protection Elminster might have, including his escape spell,

Elminster has a not inconsiderable Will save, so I would imagine most of his items and magical protection will come through this unscathed.


while the 3 other mages cast empowered, maximized Enervation (each doing 4+1d4/2 negative levels, so at least 5, provided one succeed at a ranged touch attack vs an AC of 17. With a BAB of +10, the wizards only need a +6 bonus from Dex and Weapon Forus(Ray), so it can be done without too much hassle (only select very dexterous wizards, or make them wear an appropriate garb to boost dexterity with Nystul undetectable aura cast on it, and you'll only fail on a 1). And everyone cast quickened, empowered, maximized enervation as a quick action (possible with the Easy Metamagic (quicken) or a Sudden Empower feat from Complete Arcane).


Elminsters touch AC is 19 (not a huge difference I know). He also has 39 HD so hes going to take some draining.


Elminster would loose 5 or 6 level per ray, with 7 attacks launched, each failing only on a one, during the surprise round.


Isnt it stretching it a bit to just assume they're going to take Elminster by surprise? However its not hugely important as Elminsters Init bonus isnt that hard to beat considering the speed of this proposed assasination squad.


Only 4 of them need to actually work to deprive him of levels, making him die. The probability of it not happening is 0.000625. And even if it happens, he'll certainly be at a -15 -10 penalty on all action, and lost most of his high-level spells: his only action could be to run for help, but it is unlikely he'll find some within one round


Assuming that you do in fact disjunction his contingency he can still just use his chosen ability to teleport without error, or depedning on how many levels he's lost he may still just be able to cast a travel spell to get him out of there.


(our wizard cast a quickened dimension door to keep in range, then the other repeat the enervation attack to finish him and teleport away. Having him dead without his escape spell active, it's time to prevent resurrection... Casting Animate Dead transforms Elmo in a Zombie. Everyone Plane Shift to a plane where a portal to a magicless plane has been opened. The zombie crosses it, and the wizards destroys that portal.

He could Dimension Door away using his pipe, so maybe it would be wiser, once he's been Disjuncted, to cast a quickened Dimensional Anchor at him (first PC action) while the 3 other stack enervations at him (6 attacks, an expected 20 to 30 negative levels could be bestowed. With no spellcasting to speak of, and anchored there, our epic wizard could only run or use his silver fire to blast at one of the attackers. The remaining ones (assuming he could down one of them in his action) cast a flurry of negative levels, finishing him off, cast another Disjunction on the body, Animate him, Greater Teleport away.

[QUOTE=Galandris]
No Resurrection can happen to un undead. The zombie must be destroyed first. .

Actually it can, as per the Undead type description in the MM a ressurection or true ressurection spell will turn an undead into the living creature it was before it was undead.


In a null magic plane, no magical detection can happen. No portal can be opened, there is no way one could locate the zombie and get there, if detection was possible... One may rule that a Wish could exceed the requirement listed for a normal wish, but then, there is no way to kill anyone once and for all

I think at the end of the day your right, there is no way to kill anyone permanently. Though I must say in terms of just killing them I was a little surprised at how effective the upgraded enervation proved to be

[Mr Adventurer]

Elminster has a not inconsiderable Will save, so I would imagine most of his items and magical protection will come through this unscathed.
You don't get a Will save against the dispelling part.

[Blizzardborn]

Okay, I don't do 3.5, don't do the Realms and I don't play mages. But I think this could work.

Mediocre mageling invites El over to look at some of the stuff left behind/captured/inherited. To complex for me, only you can help, sob sob sob. And I'll pay you. El's an adventurer at heart, so the clink of gold gets his attention.

They adjourn to the laboratory and mageling points out his grandpa's favorite chair, which would let him get away from Grandma's nagging and go somewhere nice and quiet. El does the scope thing and (surprise, surprise) finds a command word activated plane shift spell built into it. But it's the only chair, and it's comfy so he sits down and proceeds to look things over. Don't forget to offer some booze=he is an adverturer after all.

Most devices should have dimensional or anti-fiend themes, so when you hand him the little bracelet with a contingent dimensional anchor (not sure how you do that), it fits in.

Then you just say the command word and zap him to Pandemonium. The contingency kicks in, and he's stuck there until he finds a portal or goes insane. Meanwhile, you get to tell people about how he took off with your loot.

BB

[Galandris]

Elminsters touch AC is 19 (not a huge difference I know). He also has 39 HD so hes going to take some draining.


Yeah, I was going by the FRCS version, not the ELH one. But that doesn't change a lot, since each negative level remove one higest-slotted spell, so taking 20 levels would leave Elminster with only 4th level spells at best.


Assuming that you do in fact disjunction his contingency he can still just use his chosen ability to teleport without error, or depedning on how many levels he's lost he may still just be able to cast a travel spell to get him out of there.


Yeah, anchoring him would be necessary.



Actually it can, as per the Undead type description in the MM a ressurection or true ressurection spell will turn an undead into the living creature it was before it was undead.

Yeah, that's strange, since the spell description in the SRD states in both case


You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.

On the other hand, you're right about the Undead type description. There seems to be a rule inconsistency. Result of this method: the Modron GM dies from a heart attack. :D

[Blizzardborn]

[Modron GM]"Error...Incorrect forecast...Unit does not have heart...Heart leads to erratic, random behavior...End correction."[/Modron GM]

[Jon Chung]

On the other hand, you're right about the Undead type description. There seems to be a rule inconsistency. Result of this method: the Modron GM dies from a heart attack.

Nordom Lives!

[Shining Dragon]

Has anyone suggested siccing Drizzt onto Elminster? Whatever happens at least the Realms will be less one (or more) GMPC.

[Jon Chung]

Has anyone suggested siccing Drizzt onto Elminster? Whatever happens at least the Realms will be less one (or more) GMPC.

Drizzt is 16th level and a warrior-type. Elminster is Epic, and a wizard. Drizzt has about as much chance against Elminster as Elminster has against Pun-Pun.

Besides, any PC party shooting for Elminster would have already ganked Drizzt as a proof-of-concept exercise. :)

[Uthred]

You don't get a Will save against the dispelling part.

The only spell we know he has permanently active is the contingency, which he could trigger during the casting of the disjunction or if you dont go for that it still only removes his guranteed method of removal from the locale, not his only one.

In regards to the inconsistency between the ressurection/true ressurection spell descriptions and the undead type it seems to be an odd one and one that hasnt been addressed in any of the errata I could find. For the purposes of running a game I go with the Undead type ruling but for the purposes of killing Elminster the other interpretation is more useful.

[Simon Marks]

This is still going?

Oh, I had a thought, everyone...

csglasgow (who set up this contest) said in the "So, why do you hate the realms" thread that (one of) the reasons he disliked the realms was that Elminster was written in such a way that he would turn up and totally overshadow the PC's anytime they were going to make a difference. The GMPC riding in to save the day problem.

So, we have this situation - and my solving of the contest.

So, five 20th level sorceres with their 18th level rogue cohorts (and some assorted other minions) are fighting a great and dangerous threat to the realms.

Either a) Elminster leaves them to it (in which case, there is no problem) or b) Elminster rides in to steal the glory.

If b) happens, the PC's step back and perform their "gloryhogging sucker is going down" tactic.
All Sorcerers cast "Shapechange", then hold actions until Elminster defeats the foe.
All rogues ready a sap.

Once BBEG is dead, all held actions come into action.

Two Sorcerers change into Beholders, and target Elminster with their AM ray. The other three retain held actions and wait. Shapechange allows you to change shape as a free action, so it's not any real issue.

The 5 rogues move in with their saps, using 2 attacks and spring attacks. They should hit every time, but we'll assume 1 misses (BAB +14, +2 Str, Elminster has no magical protections). This will inflict 80d6 odd of subdual damage. If this isn't enough, they can do it again next round.

Once unconcious, a Disjunction, Genesis spell and a Soulbind spell will ensure that the Gem remains in another plane.

If Elminster can forsee this? Then it means he won't come along and upstage the players anytime soon - making him no problem in the campaign.

[Mr Adventurer]

The only spell we know he has permanently active is the contingency, which he could trigger during the casting of the disjunction or if you dont go for that it still only removes his guranteed method of removal from the locale, not his only one.
Yes, but the next thing that happens is multiple Widened Antimagic Fields.

[Uthred]

Yes, but the next thing that happens is multiple Widened Antimagic Fields.

It would appear we're discussing two different things here. I was discussing the plan involving Enervation, which obviously had no use of antimagic fields. In regards to your own plan I think it relys a bit too much on assumptions on what Elminster's going to do, in your example you assume he expends his silver fire, one of his more useful and limited abilities in the most inefficient manner possible (as its use to counter antimagic fields is the slowest way to recharge it). Its particularly unlikely he's going to use it straight off as Mystara isnt a big fan of it being used apart from in the most dire circumstances.

At the point in your scenario where Elminster gets to act it is quite clear that he is the victim of a planned attempt to kill him, why wouldnt he just use his move action step 10 feet backwards? This would remove him from the antimagic field and restore the majority of his power to him. At this point his options are massive, the most simple being to vocally activate his contingency, or to cast a spell and then activate it, while the wizards readied action will bring him into range it will do so after Elminster has completed his spell.

I was also wondering does disjunction definitely not allow a saving throw for the spell? The bolded bit below could be be interpreted that it does in fact give a saving throw That is, spells and spell-like effects are separated into their individual components (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does),

Edit: I see you already mentioned Elminster walking backwards in your scenario, for some reason I missed it the first time I read it. However I do believe that Elminster will have time for an action, or at least uttering a word or two before the wizards teleports in.

[Galandris]

I was also wondering does disjunction definitely not allow a saving throw for the spell? The bolded bit below could be be interpreted that it does in fact give a saving throw That is, spells and spell-like effects are separated into their individual components (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does),

The stat block for the spell says "Saving Throw: Will negates (object)", reinforcing the impression that only objects get that saving throw. Removing the contigent evasion is necessary as first action since it's the only way to block immediate escape, one that would foil the whole plan. If he can't do that, he'll quickly be deprived of spells allowing quick escape. With his ability, he could recognize teh spell being cast with a spellcraft check, and speak the command word for the spell. Since it's classified as speech and not a command word, it's allowed even when it's not his turn, so it could be done. My answer is, the disjuncter should have taken the Sudden Metamagic(Silent Spell) feat. He could then cast Disjunction with no verbal component (and there is no somatic component in the first place) so, by the rule, Spellcraft couldn't be used to recognize a spell being cast. In fact, nothing would warn the target until disjunction strikes.

[Mr Adventurer]

At the point in your scenario where Elminster gets to act it is quite clear that he is the victim of a planned attempt to kill him, why wouldnt he just use his move action step 10 feet backwards? This would remove him from the antimagic field and restore the majority of his power to him. At this point his options are massive, the most simple being to vocally activate his contingency, or to cast a spell and then activate it, while the wizards readied action will bring him into range it will do so after Elminster has completed his spell.Readied actions can interrupt another's action; Elminster is at no point outside an Antimagic Field. Since you read my example, you'll also note that I assume I can find some kind of barrier, such as a wall, which prevents Elminster from moving such that it is impossible for my three or four characters to keep him covered with Antimagic Fields.I was also wondering does disjunction definitely not allow a saving throw for the spell? The bolded bit below could be be interpreted that it does in fact give a saving throw That is, spells and spell-like effects are separated into their individual components (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does), The function of both Disjunction and Dispel Magic which removes active spell effects does not allow a saving throw. The saving throw applies to those spells' effects on magical items (temporarily suppressing them and permanently ruining them, for Dispel Magic and Disjunction respectively).Edit: I see you already mentioned Elminster walking backwards in your scenario, for some reason I missed it the first time I read it. However I do believe that Elminster will have time for an action, or at least uttering a word or two before the wizards teleports in.Readied actions can interrupt another's action and occur before their triggers. It may be that I need to refine my triggers somewhat, but that doesn't really impact the plan.

[Mr Adventurer]

It would appear we're discussing two different things here. I was discussing the plan involving Enervation, which obviously had no use of antimagic fields.Yes, I suppose so. Onward, in any case :). In regards to your own plan I think it relys a bit too much on assumptions on what Elminster's going to do, in your example you assume he expends his silver fire, one of his more useful and limited abilities in the most inefficient manner possible (as its use to counter antimagic fields is the slowest way to recharge it). Its particularly unlikely he's going to use it straight off as Mystara isnt a big fan of it being used apart from in the most dire circumstances.
The problem is that, inside an Antimagic Field (which my plan is designed to ensure Elminster is at all times during the combat), he can't actually do anything else except try and hit people ineffectually with his (now effectively nonmagical) sword. The only way around the Antimagic is with the Silver Fire.

[Mr Adventurer]

The stat block for the spell says "Saving Throw: Will negates (object)", reinforcing the impression that only objects get that saving throw. Removing the contigent evasion is necessary as first action since it's the only way to block immediate escape, one that would foil the whole plan. If he can't do that, he'll quickly be deprived of spells allowing quick escape. With his ability, he could recognize teh spell being cast with a spellcraft check, and speak the command word for the spell. Since it's classified as speech and not a command word, it's allowed even when it's not his turn, so it could be done. My answer is, the disjuncter should have taken the Sudden Metamagic(Silent Spell) feat. He could then cast Disjunction with no verbal component (and there is no somatic component in the first place) so, by the rule, Spellcraft couldn't be used to recognize a spell being cast. In fact, nothing would warn the target until disjunction strikes.

The "Saving throw: Will negates (object)" indicates that the spell is capable of targeting objects as well as creatures, which is important in some cases. Attacking objects with spells can get a little complicated since they use their wielder's own saving throws, if applicable.

The point about Elminster recognising the Disjunction is a valid one, but can be opposed either by the Bard taking plenty of ranks of Sleight of Hand, which Races of Stone specifies can be opposed to hide the components of a spell you are casting, or Diguise Spell, a bardic music feat which lets you expend bardic music to make a spell a seamless part of a Perform check, or an Invisibility spell... and so forth.

[MisterGuignol]

Hmm, is there any way to get Eltwinkmo to Sigil and trick him into offending the Lady of Pain?

Actually, he'd probably just make a pass at her of his own accord and end up flayed.

[TheArtful]

I'm glad I bumped into this thread.... the whole thing was just simply delicious... I didn't read every single post, but I didn't see any mention of a dimensional anchor spell either.... Elminster wouldn't know he was threatened until u threatened him...

I know I stumbled onto this way late, but anyone wanna try this again? I think the best method would have been for someone to assume Elminster's role saying "I am Elminster, how are you going to defeat me."

That way the choices are independent on both sides.

someone does move X which is countered by "Elminster."

Personally, I think he's too high at lvl 35 to even be bothered by lvl 20 nitwits...

Secondly, in order for something like this to work it would be better if Elminster made himself readily available in some sort of contest of his own volition. Otherwise everything else is moot, as he doesn't have to appear in his normal guise (alter self, polymorph self, etc..) or even on this plane of existance.

Probably need some damn epic spells to kill his ass.

[Jon Chung]

Aside from the necromancy...

Everything in D&D is quantified. We know his stats.

If it has stats, it can be killed. No if, ands or buts.

Elminster must die.

[Rachel Cartacos]

Aside from the necromancy...

Everything in D&D is quantified. We know his stats.

If it has stats, it can be killed. No if, ands or buts.

Elminster must die.

His stats aren't even all that great, it's his cheesy unique powers that players can't get that make him hard to kill.

[CreativeEvil]

The first order of business when the enemy's got the better ground is to ... change the ground!

El is powerful in the Realms and even more so in the Dales. So, what about tricking or forcing him into another plane where his allies and even gods can't help him?

Think there isn't such a place? There is, it's called Ravenloft. The Dark Powers won't permit most divine interventions and his allies will have an extremely hard time riding to his rescue. The only problem is opening a gate to Ravenloft. Thankfully there is such a device.

I can't remember the name of it exactly but Azalin the Lich Lord was working on something like that in the Grand Conjunction to open the planes. If the party can somehow get their hands on that AND get Elminster to join them through trickery, force, etc. they have a much better chance of killing him with any of the plans already discussed.

[Rachel Cartacos]

The first order of business when the enemy's got the better ground is to ... change the ground!

El is powerful in the Realms and even more so in the Dales. So, what about tricking or forcing him into another plane where his allies and even gods can't help him?

Think there isn't such a place? There is, it's called Ravenloft. The Dark Powers won't permit most divine interventions and his allies will have an extremely hard time riding to his rescue. The only problem is opening a gate to Ravenloft. Thankfully there is such a device.

I can't remember the name of it exactly but Azalin the Lich Lord was working on something like that in the Grand Conjunction to open the planes. If the party can somehow get their hands on that AND get Elminster to join them through trickery, force, etc. they have a much better chance of killing him with any of the plans already discussed.

I don't think this would work, since as of 3.X Edition Faerun is no longer part of the Great Wheel and isn't connected any other setting (I don't know if Spelljamming can still be done or not).

Plus, it doesn't necessarily beat Elmonsters 'my soul goes to a safe place when I'm killed' effect. I don't know if Ravenloft's setting prevents this, but I don't see why Ravenlofts rules should override his, especially since Elmonster is 'Beyond Munchkinism!' according to his creator.

[AmesJainchill]

I don't think this would work, since as of 3.X Edition Faerun is no longer part of the Great Wheel and isn't connected any other setting (I don't know if Spelljamming can still be done or not).

Which is the best thing about the Realms ever done.

[Jon Chung]

Eh, it's easy enough to do it on Faerun. See my infinite shadow dragon gnome. :)

[CreativeEvil]

The forum originator stated that any 2e expansion set could be used - which qualifies Ravenloft.

Putting El in Ravenloft would automatically disable most of his divine derived powers and some of his more munchkin type abilities. Plus, as I said, his allies won't be able to follow easily - or at all - due to the nature of the demiplane. His mobility will be severely limited.

For ex. Magic works differently in Ravenloft. Teleport only transports the caster to a domain's borders. Thus, his teleport chain contingencies won't save him. If the domain is sufficiently small enough, the PCs can easily find El.

Better yet, a PC maxed on social and bluff can convince the demilord to cooperate by keeping the borders closed. Another bonus - the demilord will ALWAYS know where the most powerful good aligned character (e.g. El) is in his/her domain and can pinpoint his location to the PCs.

[Nahualt]

Sooo....

Did you guys ever killed Elminster in a way that satisfied the OP? :confused:

[Ben Lehman]

The OP was banned. We'll never know.

yrs--
--Ben

[Gyrfalcon]

The OP was banned. We'll never know.

yrs--
--Ben
However, the OP did admit (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=6111394&postcount=182) that the Infinite Shadow Dragon Attack and the Synchronicity Death-Blossom Psion both worked.

[Jon Chung]

My one regret is that I never statted up a proper Telepathic Death Mime to go with my other two builds.

[Rachel Cartacos]

My one regret is that I never statted up a proper Telepathic Death Mime to go with my other two builds.

So do it now. :D

[Nahualt]

The OP was banned. We'll never know.

yrs--
--Ben

lol really, Perma-banned? why was he banned? in this same thread?

NVM I don't wanna know.

Well since we dont have a naysayer..I say we use the kantanesque or the Diplomatic guy..even better have diplomatic guy convince elminster to suicide by Seppuku using the Katanesque!!!!

[Jon Chung]

So do it now. :D

First I must make appropriate obesiance at the Altar of Pun.

[ShanG]

The OP was banned. We'll never know.

yrs--
--Ben

In any case, this thread is well over a year old by now. That being so, isn't it about time for a Second Annual Invitational Kill Elminster Contest?

[darkhunterjag]

In any case, this thread is well over a year old by now. That being so, isn't it about time for a Second Annual Invitational Kill Elminster Contest?

Good point.

[Eclipse of the Dark Sun]

I know this thread is old, but I'm halfway reading through it and I wonder:

If you managed to get the cubic inch of flesh from Elminster, say by cutting off a single forearm, if you managed to get away from him...

You could cast clone (Necromancy level 8 spell), dress the clone in a robe of powerlessness and preserve it like Manshoon does. Say, having it lie on a slab with manacles (no chain, directly attached to the slab so the clone can't move, and certainly can't break free with -10 strength)

Then, on a later occasion, you whack Elminster through some cheese and his soul get pulled to the clone, whereupon he wakes up with the robe of powerlessness in effect, wiping his memory and spell ability. You could have some sort of alarm rigged and then deal with him in some fashion..

You can't true resurrect someone who's not really dead.

I presume there's a spell that will prevent scrying of his location as well..

[Saz]

Elminster will already have thought of that (Hmm, why would they cut off my forearm, yet let me live even though I lay writhing in pain onthe floor before them)

Anyhow, it appears this thrad was for naught, for WOTC has already given us a solution by nerfing wizards so very bad in 4e , thats its not even funny anymore. So yes, any non-controller pc of the same level as elminny or even a few levels lower in 4e will be able to whack him. Solo.

A new problem has arisen however, with the uber powerering of the ranger class.

SO now we shall have Invitational Kill "Drizzt" challenges.

[Rachel Cartacos]

Elminster will already have thought of that (Hmm, why would they cut off my forearm, yet let me live even though I lay writhing in pain onthe floor before them)

Anyhow, it appears this thrad was for naught, for WOTC has already given us a solution by nerfing wizards so very bad in 4e , thats its not even funny anymore. So yes, any non-controller pc of the same level as elminny or even a few levels lower in 4e will be able to whack him. Solo.

A new problem has arisen however, with the uber powerering of the ranger class.

SO now we shall have Invitational Kill "Drizzt" challenges.

Elminster was never strong because of his class levels (He's actually a very poor build).

He's strong because of all the cheesy extra abilities his Goddess/Student/Lover/Mentor gives him. As long as this remains he'll be hard to kill no matter how much Wizards get nerfed.

[Alarkhar]

Um, as far as I know in the 4ed setting for the Forgotten Realms Shar offed Mystra... you know, permanent-like. Magic goddess lady went the way of Moander. Croaked, removed, bye bye lady god.

Which, of course, makes Elminster much more manageable... and the Simbul just a sad, depowered lady.

[Wakboth]

Which, of course, makes Elminster much more manageable... and the Simbul just a sad, depowered lady.

A sad, depowered, unstable epic-level mage lady who's still capable of leveling cities. :)

[Owesome]

SO now we shall have Invitational Kill "Drizzt" challenges.

...Oh, I am *so* up for this. Just wait till his stats are out, and I'm *so* on it.

Man, I think I have a reason to buy the FR books. ^_^

[theliel]

...Oh, I am *so* up for this. Just wait till his stats are out, and I'm *so* on it.

Man, I think I have a reason to buy the FR books. ^_^

strikers are easy to sqush.

wizzards and other controllers still have status effects, so sleep, slowed etc. basically fuck his shit up. it's just a matter of brining brutes to saok up his ridonculous damage output while you put him down.

it's PvP in wow really.

[Saz]

Even if Elminster still has his mystra powers (i am sure they wil find a way for him to retain his chosen powers; say perhaps mystra brethed her 'essence' into him or something *roll eyes*)

The way all 3rd party (item, template, etc) powers work in 4e now, they are all either encounters or dailies. So unless he uses his daily when a pc is near 14 his hp, no way he can bring that pc down in one hit. :D

[see]

(Assuming pre-Spellplague FR)

1) Use planar travel magic to go to real-life Earth (it's canonically established that portals exist, so there should be some way; epic levels of Knowledge:The Planes and bardic lore/loremaster lore should work.)

2) Use reasonably common magic (like invisibility, dominate person, etc.) to overcome security and steal 40 kilograms of highly-enriched uranium from Earth.

3) Go back to FR.

4) Electronics and gunpowder explicitly don't work in the Realms, but nothing is said of fission resulting from putting enough uranium together. So, a basic gun-type mechanism using enough smokepowder as the propellant should be adequate to trigger a Hiroshima-type event.

5) Teleport to the southern part of the Old Skull, light the wick on the smokepowder, and teleport away.

6) Of course, be sure to use magic like mind blank and false vision to avoid detection by Elminster or his allies throughout the process.

Now, keeping Elminster dead? That'd be trickier. But you did kill him while wiping out a bunch of his resources and friends very dramatically.

[Owesome2]

(i am sure they wil find a way for him to retain his chosen powers; say perhaps mystra brethed her 'essence' into him or something *roll eyes*)

ewewewewew.

Ew.

[glass]

You don't get to "rule" what works and what doesn't:Sure he does. Anyone one can chine in with 'that works'/that doesn't work'. The thread starter, who made the rules in the first place is the well placed to do that. EDIT: Well, not any more, apparently.

you're not the GM here, the hypothetical Modron is.I believe the OP was worded something like 'imagine a modron DM, if it helps'. The previous paragraph made it clear that the rule was the DM would make fair an balanced calls like real DM in the game would. The modron reference was merely to reinforce the notion of impartiallity, not to suggest slavish adherence to the RAW at the expense of common sense (ans as such, probably wasn't the best example :D).

IOW, forget the modron, it isn't helping!


glass.

[glass]

Even if Elminster still has his mystra powers (i am sure they wil find a way for him to retain his chosen powers; say perhaps mystra brethed her 'essence' into him or something *roll eyes*)They don't have to say anything -it is already established that Chosen-ness is permanent unless deliberately stripped (which tends to have bad consequences). The 'current' (pre 4e I mean) Mystra is not the one who Chose him (or the one he was shagging).


glass.

[pdwmartin]

OK this one requires some work.

First, your party of 20th level characters spend 5 years or so proving their worth to E.

Then they tell him that an obscure demi-plane requires his help (using maximised Bluff). They could explain where the DP is, but it would take too long - he is needed NOW. This should appeal to his arrogance. Its OK, you know where the plane is, and can cast Plane Shift to get you and him there!

Cast planeshift (he drops his SR and save). You are planeshifted to the dungeons of Castle Greyhawk. Your colleague activates the Godtrap, and traps E. No save, no SR. Since he is not physically or mentally impared, his contigency doesn't go off.

The other option (a one-way ticket though) is to planeshift him and you to Earth. His magic won't work anymore- he is just a sad old man. The main problem with this is that you can't get home...:(

[glass]

Cast planeshift (he drops his SR and save). You are planeshifted to the dungeons of Castle Greyhawk. Your colleague activates the Godtrap, and traps E. No save, no SR. Since he is not physically or mentally impared, his contigency doesn't go off.If he can speak, he can trigger his contingency be speaking the word 'Thaele'. If can't speak then his impaired somehow.

That said, I don't know what this Godtrap is; I'd imagine it would block extraplanar travel so it should still work if you can convince him in the first place -which does seem more likely than convincing him that his magic is tainted.

The other option (a one-way ticket though) is to planeshift him and you to Earth. His magic won't work anymore- he is just a sad old man. The main problem with this is that you can't get home...:(His magic works in our world, according to The Wizards Three.


glass.