[Necro] The 1st Invitational "Kill Elminster" Contest [Archive]

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 12:23 AM

Inspired by this thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=277321).

Ladies and gentlemen, we are gathered here to brainstorm ways by which PCs -- or, for that matter, NPCs -- of non-epic level can credibly hope to whack Elminster, the Sage of Shadowdale, in the Forgotten Realms. This is a thought experiment, and to keep it from being 'My 352nd-level wizard Waldorf just spits on him and he dies!', some ground rules:

Rule 1 -- Mystra, Stay Home: We realize that we're breaking Realms canon with this one, but honestly, its necessary just for the contest to exist at all. Nobody's expected to beat a goddess, so she's not gonna show up, no matter what you do.

Exception: If by some miracle you actually get a hostile deity on the field to go against Elminster, all bets are off.

Rule 2 -- This Is Not Your Homebrew: With the above exception, though, we will be using everything that is in-continuity for 3.5 Realms. Which means all of 3.5/3.0 Realms and a whole lot of 2e Realms, specifically, everything that is not specifically contradicted by 3e Realms content.

Exception: If it's something mentioned /only/ in a tie-in novel, we can forget it. We're sticking to sourcebooks, modules, and Dragon magazine official content only.

This "Realms canon & Realms rules" applies also to what the players are allowed to use -- if you want custom items, they have to be custom items buildable with non-house-ruled 3.5 edition mechanics. Custom spells, likewise. And so forth.

Rule 3 -- This Is Not The Colosseum: We are not using some hypothetical 'arena match', where you start at one end of a field and him at the other, and you go a-blasting until somebody falls down. Instead, your thought experiment will be set in the Realms, as a story. You are a gang of PCs in the Realms who want to kill Elminster.

To be fair, you start off with a surprise advantage. Until and unless you do something that would tip off the target that you're coming, he doesn't know that you are. Players are cautioned to remember that Elminster has a very effective spy network.

Note: While Mystra obviously knows you're coming, she's not allowed to tell him. If he's going to be given advance heads-up, it will have to be by mortal means.

For instance, if your attack plan should happen to include bringing along a herd of pet dinosaurs, or a giant magical catapult, or something else of similar nature, please be prepared to explain both how you got those dinosaurs/catapult/magical WMDs in the first place, and how you herded them all through Shadowdale without people noticing.

Or if your plan should happen to include attacking Elminster when he's not in Shadowdale, please be prepared to explain how you knew where he was going to be far enough in advance for your party to set up the ambush.

Stuff like that.

Rule 4 -- You Are Not Your Own DM: Since I won't be able to monitor this thread full time and make every rules call, even though I'll obviously be interested in and engaged with the process as time permits, we'll have to go at least halfway on the honor system here. So when you're adjudicating scenarios as part of your thought experiment, remember that the hypothetical DM here is being open-minded and fair.

This means no rules calls that all break your way. :)

Pretend that the DM is a modron from Mechanus, if that mental image helps you any.

Rule 5 -- Dammit, *Which* Elminster? Elminster's stats will be the ones from Epic Level Handbook. If you don't have that, use the ones in FRCS (which are 99% the same stats anyway).

We are not using the 'only what's specifically listed on his sheet is there', by the way. What's listed on his sheet is merely his normal everyday item load. If you've made the mistake of alerting the target, he does canonically own a very large arsenal of stuff, and he's not going to be stupid enough to forget to strap on more stuff.

Edit -- it appears that we have a need for one more rule...

Rule 6 -- There Are Reasons He's Already Lived This Long, Remember Them:

Again, to keep the contest from being a simple 'My uber-whatever just spits on him and he dies!', which is something that from the beginning was stated we were going to try and avoid, any plan that has Elminster acting uncharacteristically stupid or not using his available resources with reasonable prudence will be disqualified and earn the poster no points. Role-play Elminster like the guy who actually has lived this many centuries against the determined efforts of that many Realms villains, some of them much buffer than you, who have all repeatedly tried to kill him.

We're trying to come up with a plan that PCs in a Realms game could actually hope to use in play. Not to have fun describing a stupid old idiot taking a comedic dive.

Bonus Goals:

Given that you're being restricted to nonepic characters, it will be considered a noteworthy achievement just to make the bastard stay dead for five minutes.

* Bonus points for being able to make him stay dead for a full day. (Note that in addition to Mystra, he has a whole buttload of mortal friends who know spells like Wish or True Resurrection, which don't even need a body to work, and will gladly cast them on his behalf when they find out he's passed on.)

* Bonus points for actually /surviving/ your attack, instead of kamikaze runs.

* Bonus points for doing the job anonymously enough that all his vengeful uber-friends don't know who to come after and kill.

And now... gentlemen, start your murdering! :D

JDCorley

08-02-2006, 12:28 AM

But...Mystra was going to be my killer!

Why? Because she's tired of him and she realizes she's told him way too much in pillow talk. He can't be allowed to live.

Dang it.

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 12:33 AM

Some notes on Elminster that might help. These are from his writeup and other canon sources.

Elminster's Evasion is a special, wish-powered, chain contingency that Elminster has active on him at all times, canonically.

It *bamfs* him off to a special extradimensional safehold where he can rest up, or be re-rezzed, if he's ever having a bad day. The *bamfing* also sends a magical message to the Simbul and one other Chosen, telling them that he's had to bail out of something nasty and to get over to the Safehold and reinforce him immediately.

The six trigger points for the contingency are:

1. His death
2. The loss of his mental faculties (sleep, feeblemind, etc.)
3. The loss of his physical faculties (paralyzation, petrifaction, etc.)
4. The destruction of both upper limbs
5. The destruction of his total body volume
6. His uttering the command word (i.e. -- voluntary trigger)
utterance of the word “Thaele.”

Immunities: Elminster is, by virtue of his nature as a Chosen of Mystra, immune to:

* Aging (edit -- *and* he has no maximum age. He is immortal, at least in the will 'never die of natural causes, ever' sense.)
* Disease
* Disintegration
* Poison
* Sleep

Silver Fire: Elminster may call upon the Silver Fire of Mystra for any one of these effects at a time, once per round, without using an action. All effects are as if cast by a 20th-level sorcerer, where applicable

* Duplicate the effect of a Ring of Warmth.
* Duplicate the efefct of a Ring of Mind Shielding.
* Banish all external magical compulsions upon the wearer as per Greater Dispelling.
* Function without food or drink for up to 7 days out of a tenday.
* Dispel a dead magic zone or antimagic shell, permanently (this effect may be used only once every 70 minutes).

HyrumOWC

08-02-2006, 12:38 AM

Wow, this is a VERY cool idea. I think I have a short-run campaign idea. :)

Hyrum.

Dr. Tran

08-02-2006, 12:46 AM

Alot of people are immune to aging, but still die when they hit maximum age. High level monks leap to mind. My first thought is just wait the old coot out and do a little jig on his grave. He has to be pushing the 110 year limit by now.

Other than that, I'll have to leave the thread to those people who have REAL ideas about how to off the tired ol geezer. This should be fun to watch!

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 12:48 AM

Alot of people are immune to aging, but still die when they hit maximum age. High level monks leap to mind. My first thought is just wait the old coot out and do a little jig on his grave. He has to be pushing the 110 year limit by now.

Um, no, Elminster is unaging in the sense that he never ages, ever. Guy's over 1100 years old right now and still going strong.

You get this kind of thing when you're the favored Chosen one of a greater goddess...

Ben Lehman

08-02-2006, 12:54 AM

I can do this with one low-epic level character.

Let's say a 27th level Rogue.

Max Charisma. Max ranks in Bluff and Diplomacy. Take all feats and combinations of feats to raise your Bluff as high as possible. Epic Skill Focus and Epic Reputation. All other skills don't matter. Epic Cloak of Charisma and Potion of Glibness will also help.

Okay. Now you go up to Elminster and convince him that, in order:
1) His magic has been tainted.
2) It's tainted because Mystra tainted it.
3) She tainted it because she has become corrupted.
4) In her corrupted state, she's trying to destroy magic itself, and him along with it.
5) The only way to save magic is stop using it right away (it's tainted after all) and go with you to a little house in the middle of the woods, all alone, so better to plan how to save his girlfriend.

The first bit will stop him from hitting you with Zone of Truth, or at least from believing the results. You'll take a -20 to your Bluff roll, but your + should be at least in the high 70s by this point, so -20 literally makes no difference.

When he is with you in the woods, wait until he goes to sleep and then coup-de-grace him with a dagger. Without his special automatic bamphing, he's dead. Dead dead. Deader than a doornail dead.

yrs--
--Ben

Levi

08-02-2006, 12:59 AM

I can do this with one low-epic level character.

Nice.

I'm fairly sure you could grind that level down a bit, possibly even as low as 20, if you could collect all the potentially applicable, stacking bonuses from canon D&D material.

wdarkk

08-02-2006, 01:01 AM

Hmm.

Step 1: Be a bard with a hell-load of charisma. Take max ranks in the diplomacy skill.
Step 2: Become a devoted follower of Bane.
Step 3: Wear as many charisma/diplomacy buffs as you can.
Step 4: Meet Bane in person.
Step 5: Make a diplomacy check. The check for moving someone from "Indifferent" to "Fanatic" is 90. Hard, but not impossible with buffs. (If you assume that Bane is "Friendly" to his followers, the DC drops to a much easier 60).
Step 6: Ask your new buddy to off Elminster.
Step 7: Bane has the "mass life and death" divine salient ability. Elminster dies without Bane so much as lifting a finger.

Advantages: No saving throw!
Disadvantages: a 90 isn't THAT easy to get, and this allows Mystra to intervene.

Hmm. Could I purchase a Colossus (ELH) from the Red Wizards or the Zhents? If I could somehow catch Elminster unaware with it, one of those would paste El easily (an ex antimagic feild, grapple check over 100, etc) if I could get it near him.

Ben Lehman

08-02-2006, 01:08 AM

Nice.

I'm fairly sure you could grind that level down a bit, possibly even as low as 20, if you could collect all the potentially applicable, stacking bonuses from canon D&D material.

It depends a lot on if it's 3.0 or 3.5. 3.0 features the potion of glibness that gives a humdinger of a +30 to your bluff checks (for a few minutes, at least.) 3.5 makes it much harder to do without the Epic Skill Focus.

Also, if there are races that give you inherent bonuses to Charisma or Bluff, those would be worth considering.

Lastly, after the first one, you're going to have to do without any magical effects at all, as I assume that Elminster (trusting your word implicitly) would immediately dispel all the magical effects in the area, including yours. That makes it trickier to rely on stacking.

Really, though, it comes down to what Elminster's Sense Motive is. As long as you can stay a comfortable 40 points above it (20 points for the "outrageous lies" penalty and 20 to negate the roll), you should be fine.

yrs--
--Ben

Prairie Dragon

08-02-2006, 01:09 AM

I can do this with one low-epic level character.

yrs--
--Ben
There is one major flaw in this plan: finding Elminster. 90% of the time, he is unavailable or his whereabouts are unknown. The other 10% of the time, he is actually meeting with important folks in secret locations.

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 01:10 AM

I don't think either one (Zhents or Red Wizards) actually has colossi. Golems of the more normal set, yes, epic colossi, never heard of.

As for the difficulty of convincing Elminster to believe his patron goddess has tainted him and all that -- the target # for this would actually, to be logical (note -- the DM is a modron, not an idiot), be set against his Spellcraft, not his Sense Motive, as you are literally trying to tell the Realms' greatest archmage that everything he knows about magic is wrong, and to renounce all magic.

So:

Elminster has Spellcraft +40.

Add on a +20 to DC for 'way out there, impossible to even consider', for a target DC of 60.

Leave out all magic items and philters, because he has an always-on line-of-sight Detect Magic effect (Chosen of Mystra template, again), and a Spellcraft high enough to ID auras like they ain't no thang, and therefore, the attempt to magically influence him will automatically give your game away.

So, you're going to have to beat a DC of 60 -- minimum (the +50 DC modifier for /Suggestion/ might apply here, as that's what you're trying) -- without magical aid.

A non-epic character and remember that nonepics were specified, cannot do that.

Ben Lehman

08-02-2006, 01:18 AM

I don't think either one actually has colossi.

As for the difficulty of convincing Elminster to believe his patron goddess has tainted him and all that -- the target # for this would actually, to be logical (note -- the DM is a modron, not an idiot), be set against his Spellcraft, not his Sense Motive, as you are literally trying to tell the Realms' greatest archmage that everything he knows about magic is wrong, and to renounce all magic.

So:

Elminster has Spellcraft +40.

Add on a +20 to DC for 'way out there, impossible to even consider', for a target DC of 60.

Leave out all magic items and philters, because he has an always-on line-of-sight Detect Magic effect (Chosen of Mystra template, again), and a Spellcraft high enough to ID auras like they ain't no thang, and therefore, the attempt to magically influence him will automatically give your game away.

So, you're going to have to beat a DC of 60 -- minimum (the +50 DC modifier for /Suggestion/ might apply here, as that's what you're trying) -- without magical aid.

A non-epic character and remember that nonepics were specified, cannot do that.

Bluff is always opposed by Sense Motive. There are no exceptions to this. The Modron can read a rulebook, I assume?

Likewise, it seems odd to rule that "'cause Mystra tells him you're using magic" should serve as a counter to the lie "Mystra is lying to you." The point is to make him distrust his magic, and that's includes the magical read he's getting on you.

If I came up to you and said "your girlfriend is trying to kill you" you might go "fuck off, dude" but you probably wouldn't go "aha! I know your wrong because my girlfriend told me you're lying." Of course that's what she's going to say. She's trying to kill you, after all.

yrs--
--Ben

P.S. Finding Elminster is, indeed, a problem. Best bet is to tank your Gather Information score at the same time. I imagine that Gather Info +40 or so should be enough to track him down.

Tennemar

08-02-2006, 01:26 AM

So why couldn't I cast anti-magic field on myself, then grapple him to death? His SR is only 21.

Shining Dragon

08-02-2006, 01:27 AM

Can I use Harry Potter? 'cos he's The Boy Who Lived. And can speak to snakes. Thats gotta count for something...

Silent Wayfarer

08-02-2006, 01:36 AM

Pun-pun. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801)

Can kill Elminster and all the gods in Faerun (and in every multiverse) at once at 5th level. Is perfectly legal by v3.5 rules.

Jon Chung

08-02-2006, 01:57 AM

Pun-pun. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801)

Can kill Elminster and all the gods in Faerun (and in every multiverse) at once at 5th level. Is perfectly legal by v3.5 rules.

Damn, you got to it before I did. Ah well.

Books used: 3.5 Core, Draconomicon, Races of Stone, Underdark.

This is somewhat less assured, but about as humiliating as being killed by a god-kobold. Behold, the...

Gnomish Dark Lord

Gnome Wizard 5 / Shadowcraft Mage 5 (Races of Stone) / Shadowcrafter 10 (FR: Underdark).

Shadow Illusion, Shadowcraft Mage ability: Convert illusion[figment] spells into effective Shadow Evocation/Conjuration spells of one level lower. Reality % = level of spell converted, +40% via various class abilities.

Heighten Spell, Core feat: Raise spell of X level to Y level, spell level adjustment of +Y-X.

Earth Spell, Races of Stone feat: Heightened spells while standing on unworked stone or dirt are raised by an additional +1 level.

Greater Dragon Ally, 9th level Draconomicon conjuration[summoning] spell: summon one 27 HD dragon for one task. Normally, you have to pay for it in cold hard gold, but...

The above abilities allow you to Heighten a Silent Image up to a 10th level spell, and use that to summon 140% real dragons by faking Greater Dragon Ally with Shadow Illusion. An infinite number of them, since you don't have to pay illusions and can abuse them at will.

Proceed to annihilate Elminster (and all of Faerun while you're at it) with your Infinite Dragonflight. While it sadly cannot trap the bugger's soul, it is effortless and anonymous. Bonus: you get to watch him get ripped to pieces repeatedly as he self-resurrects.

Edit: if he wants to hide, destroy everything. He'll eventually come out.

Richard R.

08-02-2006, 02:01 AM

He's over a thousand years old. The kingdom he was born in is lost to the dust of history. He has seen and done pretty much everything...

After your stalwart band of epic-level PCs defeat some epic beastie, Elminster decides the world is in safe hands and just gives up and lets himself go into the peaceful light forever.

That's it.

Silent Wayfarer

08-02-2006, 02:02 AM

Jon Chung

08-02-2006, 02:05 AM

You probably CAN trap his soul. TTS is Conjuration (Summoning), and the Shadowcraft Mage's Shadow Illusion ability does not require the components of the spell to be mimicked. So you can cheerfully have your dragon army tear Wankminster apart (after first MDJing him to remove pesky contingencies), then Trap his soul in a gem formed of pure shadowstuff.

Viola, cannot be resurrected. Wear him around your neck.

This requires me to actually fight Elminster, instead of hiding on my Genesis-created fast time demiplane with no outside exits. Half the point is in doing this without ever having to worry about retaliation.

Although I suppose mass-producing TTS gems along with dragon minions works just as well. Hmm!

Jon Chung

08-02-2006, 02:09 AM

Galandris

08-02-2006, 03:36 AM

Leave out all magic items and philters, because he has an always-on line-of-sight Detect Magic effect (Chosen of Mystra template, again), and a Spellcraft high enough to ID auras like they ain't no thang, and therefore, the attempt to magically influence him will automatically give your game away.

Detect Magic would let him know that the people speaking to him as a Strong Transmutation aura, nothing more. This measly 0th-level power won't necessary tick him of if you obviously has a strong Transmutation aura. I even supposed it's assumed for 20th level character to glow like a Solar's iconic anima display when studied with Detect Magic, and that wouldn't ring Elminster's bell. But anyway, providing an explanation for the aura would be a good idea, like obviously behaving under a Magic Vestment spell (same level, same school).

You don't have necessarily to drop all magic to make the lie believable. First, you could say that Mystra's has become insane, and one should refrain from using Mystra's Magic, but that other's god magic hasn't been corrupted yet, only arcane and Mystra's own, since insanity is slowly growing and that arcane casters are more connected to Mystra that other priests. Or you could say that you sacrificed yourself to gain control of the Shadow Weave to be able to use spells, and that's, unfortunately, the only way to go to save Mystra from insanity, but think of the trick you're playing on Shar! That would, of course, be hard to believe, but why not, after all, you're already taking the outrageous lie penalty.

That's why a DC 60 to convince him to stop using magic unless an emergency arise is totally doable. Your best bet would be to send you Gnome Bard 18/Efreeti Bloodline 1/Ranger 1.

Charisma 31 (18 natural, +6 inherent bonus from the correct Tome, +4 enhancement from Eagle's Splendor, +5 from leveling to 20th level) gives a +10 modifier, 22 ranks, +30 unnamed from Glibness (as per 3.5 srd), +2 from your Racial Efreeti Bloodline bonus, +2 unnamed from the Persuasive feat, +3 from Skill Focus(Bluff), +2 (favoured enemy human)

That's a pretty impressive +61. I don't know what would be Elminster's Sense Motive, but a quick googling gives me +11. With the outrageous lie penalty and supposing he rolls 20, that's 51. He'll certainly trust you when you say to him that Mystra is insane. Now, he'll certainly run to his friend from help, and without magical travel, your 20th level Ranger with favoured enemy (human) will have no problem following him until he stops at an inn (no more spellfire to sustain you, Elminster...) and rests... That's where your 20th level Rogue Coup de Grace him with his Unholy, Humanbane, Firing Scythe (8d4+9d6+2d6+2d6+2+1d6) much better than a simple dagger. For a minimum damage of 24, he'd have to roll Fortitude of 34 to survive (15%), and the odd of rolling something so low are abysmally low. Actually, there is certainly the possibility of doing 27 minimum damage on a critical. The best is, so far, the scythe with 8d4 on the critical, giving a base damage of 8. Still 16 to find and cram in a non-epic magic item.

Next part is making sure dead Elminster stays dead.

If you think the Shadow Weave if too outlandish to be trusted, you could use psionic. As I don't use psionic myself in my game, I don't know if they are in the FRCS canon, but since mindflayers are, I suppose they are. If this is so, one of the way could be with a 20th level psion, using Microcosm to make Elminster live in his little happy paradise in his mind. With a modron GM, he hasn't lost his mental of physical faculties, only he's living in an imaginary world, so that might not trigger Elminster's Evasion. Using Overchannelling, his effective manifester level would be 23, and he could send in dreamland without saving throw any creature of 160 current HP or less. Elminster being 219 at full health, that would obviously need a weakining first of 59 HP. With the Quicken Power metamagic, and overchanneling, one could use Psionic Disintegrate to do 22d6 of damage (17d6 on a successful fortitude save) followed by a Microcosm. As the CR system suppose a party of 4, it's not totally impossible to use 2 quickened Psionic disintegrate (2 PC) while the other two stand by, ready to cast Reality Revision to improve the odd of rolling bad damage rolls (that would either kill him or weaken him insufficiently). Then one of the desintegrator could Microcosm Elminster, and everyone Teleport out of range, with a drooling Elminster in tow.

Jon Chung

08-02-2006, 04:00 AM

ISnip Diplomacy Cheese

That would work nicely. There are a couple things in the Book of Exalted Deeds that will let you go higher, and there's always the Marshal (one level) from the Miniatures Handbook for +CHA to skills. Warlock (one level) for Beguiling Tongue gives +6 to socials.

If you think the Shadow Weave if too outlandish to be trusted, you could use psionic. But, as I don't use psionic, I don't know how to exploit it.

Infinite action loop with a soulcatching knife. Trick as follows:

Affinity Field (9th power): all beings within said field echo HP damage and manifestations of 1-4th level powers - what is done to one is done to all.

Fission (8th power): split yourself in two, counts as a separate creature (and can be shared with your psicrystal).

Bestow Power (2nd power): gives some other character 2 power points, costs 3 power points.

Synchronicity (1st power): grants one readied action to take place before character's next turn. Standard action to manifest normally.

Fission yourself, share it with your pet rock, then have both of your selves manifest Affinity Field. There are now two Affinity Fields functioning. You manifest Synchronicity, your clone gets two readied actions. He spends one of his to give you two, so on and so forth. Same trick applies to Bestow Power, for an infinite well of actions in an effective Time Stop (it never stops being your turn), plus infinite power points. Kill Elminster with your soultrapping knife (doesn't matter how long it takes), and teleport away.

I sort of prefer the thought of him being gnawed on by infinite dragons, though. :)

Ben Lehman

08-02-2006, 04:17 AM

That's why a DC 60 to convince him to stop using magic unless an emergency arise is totally doable. Your best bet would be to send you Gnome Bard 18/Efreeti Bloodline 1/Ranger 1.

Thanks for fleshing it out, man. Is there any reason not to use Rogue 18, though? It seems that then you could do the stabbity yourself, which is just so much more *satisfying*

yrs--
--Ben

thenorm42

08-02-2006, 04:57 AM

>>This requires me to actually fight Elminster, instead of hiding on my Genesis-created fast time demiplane with no outside exits. Half the point is in doing this without ever having to worry about retaliation.

Maybe the FR *are* some kind of prison for Elminster? Maybe one with such accelerated time that it's designed to kill him off very rapidly (from the perspective of whoever put him in there)? He's trapped in a magical VR machine - even his Detect Illusion skills are illusory?

At least, it might make for a good modifier on your bluff check - 'You really thought your patron goddess would shag you? You didn't get a little bit suspicious then?'. Even with Elminster's vast arrogance levels, it's got to help...

Jon Chung

08-02-2006, 05:05 AM

Maybe the FR *are* some kind of prison for Elminster? Maybe one with such accelerated time that it's designed to kill him off very rapidly (from the perspective of whoever put him in there)? He's trapped in a magical VR machine - even his Detect Illusion skills are illusory?

At least, it might make for a good modifier on your bluff check - 'You really thought your patron goddess would shag you? You didn't get a little bit suspicious then?'. Even with Elminster's vast arrogance levels, it's got to help...

Explains why he's so obviously the protagonist of the Realms - the Realms are his Microcosm.

This just demands a game where the PCs break out from the self-contained Realms cosmology, only to find that they are figments of a mad mage's imagination turned upon itself, and have to survive without their gonzo Epic Level powers. :)

riprock

08-02-2006, 05:16 AM

Pun-pun. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801)

Can kill Elminster and all the gods in Faerun (and in every multiverse) at once at 5th level. Is perfectly legal by v3.5 rules.

I love you with a passionate, adoring, worshipful love composed of pure munchinicity.

And I love Pun-Pun even more. So long as he is legal in 3.5 I am going to tell 3.5 players to worship him as the greatest of all 3.5 gods.

thenorm42

08-02-2006, 05:26 AM

>>Explains why he's so obviously the protagonist of the Realms - the Realms are his Microcosm.

>>This just demands a game where the PCs break out from the self-contained Realms cosmology, only to find that they are figments of a mad mage's imagination turned upon itself, and have to survive without their gonzo Epic Level powers.

Fourth wall breaking goodness!

ShanG

08-02-2006, 05:27 AM

A, Pun-Pun, in all his glory.

Destroying Elminster is really the only time in which bringing Pun-Pun into the game is not only permittable, but laudable.

Galandris

08-02-2006, 05:51 AM

The six trigger points for the contingency are:

1. His death
2. The loss of his mental faculties (sleep, feeblemind, etc.)
3. The loss of his physical faculties (paralyzation, petrifaction, etc.)
4. The destruction of both upper limbs
5. The destruction of his total body volume
6. His uttering the command word (i.e. -- voluntary trigger)
utterance of the word “Thaele.”

I suppose it would be triggered by non-lethal damage, too... Would a grapple count as loss of physical faculties? I wouldn't since sleeping, obviously, doesn't, so it must be something magical... A psion using Telekinetic Maneuver would quicken grapple him at d20+38 versus his d20+17, that's an auto-success... but he would say thaele and wooof, no more elmo, so that's not a good method. You could always Trace Teleport, another nifty psi power, but you'd have to repeat same trick on him at his arrival point (thought it might be prepared there, AND on his cronies who would certainly fall to the trick themselves. Once grappled, he can be dealt during 23 rounds the base unarmed damage of 1d6+15 (with Int used instead of Str), that would be enough to finish him, though. So 3 PS to take care of Elmo, and the 3 cronies. The 4th character would be tasked, as a Wizard, to prepare costly Soul Bind gems, trapping the soul in a device than is resistant to Miracle, Wish and Resurrection spells, then Gate the party to a dead magic plane. If there is no such plane in the FRCS cosmology, one of the Psion will have created one using Genesis (the only aspect of the plane that can't be manipulated being time), with a permanent portal opening from say, Bane's home plane. The 4th party member, a Cleric of Bane in this case, would create a Gate to this plane, and the psi team would move through, using unfailable grapple check to move the grappled 3 heroes. Then, they would grapple them through the permanent portal in the dead magic zone, where a prison would have been constructed. That will last as long as the plane is kept secret (and nobody could know) and the 3 prisonners don't die of hunger and thirst. Forcefeeding might be in order. Or they could be killed, and the soul gem could conceivably be stored on that plane. Acquiring the gems back would require knowing about it, and assaulting Bane's plane first. Something that's Mystra's province, but it was ruled out by our GM. :)

One of the way to go around his contingency would be to Dominate him, with the order "Greater Teleport to a specific location". A well-prepared Psion Telepath would have 30 Int, and the base DC for his Psionic Dominate would be 24. Using overchannelling and augmentation, he could raise it to 32. That's still very low compared to Elminster +17 will save, functionning 75% of the time. A strike team of 4 PT could however dominate him, by repetitive strike of Domination, with a 99,61% efficiency. The order would be Teleport to X and waint for me evading detection only. His contingency would warn his cronies and Teleport him to his secret location, from which he would teleport back, on the same round the cronies arrive (supposing they immediately teleport back). Choosing X in a public location, to make it not being a self-destructive action, could work. After all, you'll be there one round, and then Elmo will follow you like a little puppy for 23 days. You won't be able to do much, like using him against his allies, it would be too risky, but he can be effectively removed. Asking him to follow you through a Gate to a plane where Mystra doesn't hold control on magic would be good: an extraplanar dead magic zone would make a convenient prison for him (manacled in psionic dorje granting non detection-like powers).

* Disintegration

Does this imply he's immune to the damage caused by a desintegration spell, or only the desintegration effect (removing body?). If so, in my attempt to use a psi strike team, I'd have to replace the wonderful overchannelled quickened Disintegrate (22d6, 17d6 on Fort save DC 26) by a lowly overchannelled quickened Energy Wave (fire) (17d6+17, Ref save DC 27 for half), with the added benefit of blasting any surrounding minion of him (and targeting is lower Ref save of +13, so he suffers the full effect 75% of the time instead of 50%).

Silent Wayfarer

08-02-2006, 05:56 AM

In 3.5, Disintegrate just does a lot of damage and turns your victim to glowing ash if it kills him.

Also, I would suggest having the Divert Teleport power if you have psions, or use the Dimension Lock power.

Jon Chung

08-02-2006, 06:03 AM

Olof Jönsson

08-02-2006, 06:16 AM

(Note, this is not an entirely serious entry, but if I was GM, I would explain his absence from my game this way.)

Easy.

I have Elminster kill himself. By accident.

See, Elminster is fighting one of the big bad guys. Some demon god or something, it's not important. Mystra and his other girlfriends are there, helping. So when Elminster casts Dispel Magic, the demon-god actually manages to dodge...and the spell hits Mystra instead.

And suddenly centuries of mind-control spells wear off, and she remembers everything. How a young mage named Elminster used a powerful mind-controlling artefact to enslave her and several others. How he kept using magic *she* granted him to keep her and all those other powerful female mages in their mind-addled worshipful stage (and Gods, they *slept* with the swine), how he manipulated and started about 90% of the big conspiracies in the Realms to keep himself in power (hey, he's the only one who can help against all those badguys...because he runs them from behind the curtains), how he turned himself into a kind of demi-god. The real reason he once was sent to Hell is because he should be there.

And all of a sudden, Elminster loses all his favors, all his powers, all his little stolen trinkets and spells and advantages.

He suffered for a long time before finally Mystra tired of torturing him and just desintegrated him.

Most of the former threats to the Realms have fractured into a hundred competing groups, as they're no longer controlled by the real bad guy. An organization of Neutral, Chaotic and Lawful Evil people? Yeah, without mind-control, they were about as organized as an army of cats.

But what about the remaining threats? Bane? Bhaal, who is just waiting for a way to return to the Realms? There were threats out there who never dared move because all the good guys, and all the bad guys would turn on them on the command of Elminster the Adversary. But Elminster is dead, and the Good groups are only slowly coming to terms with having been used for so long...

Cue the PC's, to stop the big threat. Fortunately, they don't have to take out all the other bad guys, they're all too busy in their little turf war...

Jon Chung

08-02-2006, 06:26 AM

Galandris

08-02-2006, 06:34 AM

It strikes me that with Pun-Pun, super diplomacy, infinite dragons and the Synchronicity death blossom, we can kill Elminster and all his superpowered friends with ease, simultaneously.

Anyone want to run this in PBP?

Not including Pun-Pun, of course.

Yeah, that thread so strongly diverts from the "how deep are your players" that I feel irresistibly attracted to it, to play an over-the-top one shot of a couple bad guys blasting the iconic heroes of the Forgotten Realms, in all their munchkiny goodness.

Jon Chung

08-02-2006, 06:36 AM

Yeah, that thread so strongly diverts from the "how deep are your players" that I feel irresistibly attracted to it, to play an over-the-top one shot of a couple bad guys blasting the iconic heroes of the Forgotten Realms, in all their munchkiny goodness.

Someone should ante up and offer to DM, then.

I won't, I like my twinking too much to pass up something like this. :)

Galandris

08-02-2006, 06:46 AM

Someone should ante up and offer to DM, then.

I won't, I like my twinking too much to pass up something like this. :)

:) Yeah, but think of the opportunity to twink the whole bunch of goodie-two-shoes of the realm planning their counterattack... striking a deal with Thay, for exemple, for help. Because, the Thayan are cool, but never managed to take down Elmo and a bunchf of cronies... Do you think the Harper would go to Zhentil Keep and Thay for help, opting from the lesser of the two Evil? Would their evil allies accept such an offer, terryfied by the power of the Nerd Team from Outer Plane? I find myself pinching that to players, maybe we'll be a group... Let's count ourselves, first.

Jon Chung

08-02-2006, 06:52 AM

:) Yeah, but think of the opportunity to twink the whole bunch of goodie-two-shoes of the realm planning their counterattack... striking a deal with Thay, for exemple, for help. Because, the Thayan are cool, but never managed to take down Elmo and a bunchf of cronies... Do you think the Harper would go to Zhentil Keep and Thay for help, opting from the lesser of the two Evil? Would their evil allies accept such an offer, terryfied by the power of the Nerd Team from Outer Plane? I find myself pinching that to players, maybe we'll be a group... Let's count ourselves, first.

Anything that can kill Elminster and the Sisters is going to have every single evil faction in the Realms scrambling to sign up as loyal minions.

Silent Wayfarer

08-02-2006, 07:06 AM

Yeah, that thread so strongly diverts from the "how deep are your players" that I feel irresistibly attracted to it, to play an over-the-top one shot of a couple bad guys blasting the iconic heroes of the Forgotten Realms, in all their munchkiny goodness.

You know, I really don't understand WHY twinking and character depth have to be mutually exclusive. A build is a build; it's how its played that makes it a character. Character optimization and character development need not be mutually exclusive.

Jon Chung

08-02-2006, 07:16 AM

You know, I really don't understand WHY twinking and character depth have to be mutually exclusive. A build is a build; it's how its played that makes it a character. Character optimization and character development need not be mutually exclusive.

The ability and inclination to pursue Munchkin-Fu is not often found in purely character/story focused players, in my experience. It's not a separation born of intrinsic incompatibility, but with the player population's tendencies. Why would a narrativist player care about how to make invincible god-kobolds? :)

Silent Wayfarer

08-02-2006, 07:20 AM

The ability and inclination to pursue Munchkin-Fu is not often found in purely character/story focused players, in my experience. It's not a separation born of intrinsic incompatibility, but with the player population's tendencies.

Say again without the $50 words?

:D

Jon Chung

08-02-2006, 07:22 AM

Say again without the $50 words?

:D

Ug think people who like story and don't care about game don't think too much about game rules.

:D

Dr Rotwang!

08-02-2006, 07:27 AM

Well...my first thought involeded a [I]Broadsword[I]-class cruiser full of Imperial Marines in battledress with PGMPs, so...looks like I'm out.

RPG_Wombat

08-02-2006, 07:48 AM

Well...my first thought involeded a [I]Broadsword[I]-class cruiser full of Imperial Marines in battledress with PGMPs, so...looks like I'm out.

You're aiming a bit low there.

I was actually thinking initiating a Quantum Vacuum Collapse myself. Granted, you'd take the rest of reality out as well, but to get rid of Elminster, that would be a small price to pay. Killing Elminster - with SCIENCE (tm).

Actually, despite hating D&D, FR, and Elminster, this is a pretty interesting thread, as an exercise in "How to get rid of huge plot-contrivance NPC.

budman

08-02-2006, 08:08 AM

killing him is easy keeping him dead that's hard

1000 true strke arrows should do the trick in one volly
per every 25 that hit thats 100 damage there
1st level npc archers could do it

then once dead

the heros bamf door after him

then all but one fight the gods for the rigths to his body

the one not in the fight has the job of beheading then dismembering then coveing in acid and fanly burning the course bonus points for a wish spell

as soon as body boy is done run like hell

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 08:13 AM

Bluff is always opposed by Sense Motive. There are no exceptions to this. The Modron can read a rulebook, I assume?

PS -- 'You can read a rulebook, I assume?' comes across very annoyingly.

Really? NPC bards and rogues may now talk PC wizards into abandoning magic at will, because Sense Motive ain't a class skill for wizards?

You do realize I would allow PCs to use Spellcraft as well in this usage.

Hell, it could be ruled that Bluff is the wrong skill for the PC to use -- this is a debate about the nature of magic, that's a contest of opposed Spellcraft or Knowledge (Arcana) rolls.

> Likewise, it seems odd to rule that "'cause Mystra tells him you're
> using magic" should serve as a counter to the lie "Mystra is lying to
> you." The point is to make him distrust his magic, and that's includes
> the magical read he's getting on you.

And to make him distrust his magic requires you to persuade him believe that everything he knows or has learned about magic is actually wrong. Which is not Bluff.

You are literally taking on a master mage in a debate about the nature of magic.

How Spellcraft supposedly don't relate to that is entirely beyond me.

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 08:17 AM

Detect Magic would let him know that the people speaking to him as a Strong Transmutation aura, nothing more.

It also allows him a Spellcraft check to determine the identity of a spell that's already in place and in effect... with the DC being 20 + spell level. And it doesn't require an action.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm

Elminster's Spellcraft is +40.

He looks at you, he knows exactly what spells you have cast on you and what they're doing, not just the school. Master archmages do that kinda thing.

budman

08-02-2006, 08:18 AM

the con job plan is good and will kill him but he will be back

we got to keep him dead

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 08:19 AM

BTW, folks, part of using the Realms as canon means Elminster acts in character.

Which means he's not going to kill himself for any reason, or act like an Intelligence 3 or Wisdom 3 dumbass.

You're gonna actually have to work for it.

Silent Wayfarer

08-02-2006, 08:24 AM

Any wizard of Elminster's level, if played properly, will be slathered in contingencies. Those are the major problem.

The best thing to do is to have a psion and a wizard (add more people if needed) double-team him; wizard disjunctions Elminster, and if it triggers a contingency, psion uses the Metafaculty power to track him down, then wizard teleports the two of them to go find him and disjunction him again. Once he's out of protections, kill as needed. Then psion Ego Whips Elminster into submission. Wizard is mainly needed for his ability to cast disjunction and Trap The Soul of Elminster.

UglyJimStudly

08-02-2006, 08:26 AM

Really, though, it comes down to what Elminster's Sense Motive is. As long as you can stay a comfortable 40 points above it (20 points for the "outrageous lies" penalty and 20 to negate the roll), you should be fine.

Per the ELH, Elminster's Sense Motive is +9. His only epic-type high skills are the typical Wizard ones (Concentrate, Knowledge: Arcana, Scry*, Spellcraft) everything else is +20 or less.

To be honest, he's not a real well-built character, for killing him the only tough part is dealing with the neener-neener Evasion ability. I haven't seen the 3E writeup for that ability, but assuming it's on par with a Wish it's not out of reach of a party with 9th level spells - it might go down when they hit the big E with Mordenkainen's Disjunction, they can use a Wish of their own to counter it, a Discern Location to track the hidey-hole down, etc. If they know his statblock ahead of time and take some logical precautions, I think an iconic Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Wizard party in the 18th-20th range can probably take him down.

* Scry is a 3E skill, so the points are probably redistributed in his 3.5E writeup.

drnuncheon

08-02-2006, 08:35 AM

Really? NPC bards and rogues may now talk PC wizards into abandoning magic at will, because Sense Motive ain't a class skill for wizards?

According to the book - yes. And if it's a modron DM, then it has to be by the book, no?

Hell, it could be ruled that Bluff is the wrong skill for the PC to use -- this is a debate about the nature of magic, that's a contest of opposed Spellcraft or Knowledge (Arcana) rolls.

It's not a debate about the nature of magic, because it has nothing to do with what magic is really like. It's about convincing someone of something that isn't true, and that is what the Bluff skill is all about.

Most of these solutions are going to rely on poorly worded abilities and such - like Pun-pun the kobold and his 'whatever special ability I want' power. This is the same thing - taking advantage of a poorly-thought-out set of social interaction rules.

Is it stupid? Sure. But it's also the way the rules work - both the game rules and the rules you set forth for the contest (modron DM).

J

drnuncheon

08-02-2006, 08:39 AM

Any wizard of Elminster's level, if played properly, will be slathered in contingencies. Those are the major problem.

"You can use only one contingency spell at a time; if a second is cast, the first one (if still active) is dispelled."

I'm not sure whether EE counts as a contingency or not (the short description says "an enhanced contingency spell), but even if it doesn't, that's a maximum of 2.

J

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 08:41 AM

According to the book - yes. And if it's a modron DM, then it has to be by the book, no?

Fine. The modron DM rules that a debate about the metaphysics of the universe -- which is exactly what the player was trying, no matter what you claim(*) -- doesn't use the Bluff skill at all. On *either* side. It's a contest of Spellcraft or Knowledge (Arcana). The modron says so let it be written, so let it be done, no appeals.

*WHAM* (gavel comes down)

The modron DM then reminds people that if the precedent is set that the Bluff skill can be used to convince people to abandon their deities and their class abilities so easily, every PC class that does not have Sense Motive as a class skill is dead meat on the hoof vs. an NPC bard, which is exactly why he will not set the precedent, as the modron in him demands that the system not crash and fall apart due to a logical absurdity. :D

Hey, my contest, my rules. And I want creative solutions that would actually work in a Realms story, not mind-breaking rules hacks.

(*) Hey, given that Elminster's worship of Mystra is literally on fanatic levels, the modron could also just rule that Bluff doesn't work on him at all re: convincing him to abandon Mystra worship.

Wossisname

08-02-2006, 08:42 AM

Ah... but Bluff I believe only works on NPCs (PCs being granted freedom to react as they want and not capable of having their attitudes adjusted), and Elminster is clearly a GMPC.

Grimkrieg

08-02-2006, 08:43 AM

Random Nerd

08-02-2006, 08:45 AM

Fine. The modron DM rules that a debate about the metaphysics of the universe -- which is exactly what the player was trying -- doesn't use the Bluff skill at all. On *either* side. It's a contest of Spellcraft or Knowledge (Arcana). The modron says so let it be written, so let it be done, no appeals.

*WHAM* (gavel comes down)

The modron DM then reminds people that if the precedent is set that the Bluff skill can be used to convince people to abandon their deities and their class abilities so easily, every PC class that does not have Sense Motive as a class skill is dead meat on the hoof vs. an NPC bard, which is exactly why he will not set the precedent, as the modron in him demands that the system not crash and fall apart due to a logical absurdity. :D

Hey, my contest, my rules. And I want creative solutions that would actually work in a Realms story, not mind-breaking rules hacks.

Meh.

Sure, you made the rules. But once they're made, we're just as capable as you of evaluating what fits them. And I, at least, think the "I persuade him to screw himself over" approach fits just fine. Besides, powerful people being talked into dumb stuff by sneaky people is a standby of literature since before written language existed.

Extrakun

08-02-2006, 08:46 AM

How about the one where you drop a boat on him, as highlighted in a recent thread?

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 08:47 AM

Mr Adventurer

08-02-2006, 08:48 AM

D&D is all about party play, folks.

Human Wizard 15
Human Cleric 15
Half-Elf Bard 15
Half-Ogre Barbarian 8/Reaping Mauler 5

The Bard tracks down Elminster by using kick-ass social fu, possibly actually joining the Harpers as part of his awesome ruse. Alternatively, just live in Shadowdale and wait.

The Wizard Magic Jars himself into the Half-Ogre Reaping Mauler. He then casts Anitmagic Field. The Field suppresses the Magic Jar spell, and everyone's souls go back into their proper bodies. You now have a big wrestling guy with an Antimagic Field.

The Wizard also has the Craft Contingent Spell feat, and crafts himself a Contingent Antimagic Field with the trigger "when I am within 10' of Elminster".

The Half-Ogre Reaping Mauler and the Cleric charge at Elminster. Elminster goes "hah, puny mortals" and gets ready to fight. Maybe he has an Arcane Sight active, and sees the Antimagic Fields, and so readies to use his Silver Fire ability.

The Bard uses a Scroll of Mordenkainen's Disjunction on Elminster just before his friend's Antimagic Fields cover him.

Before getting near to Elminster, the Cleric stops and readies an action to cast Antimagic Field on himself with the trigger "if Elminster is not within an antimagic field", including a five-foot step or a crafted Contingent Dimension Door "when I click my tongue".

The Wizard waits a few hundred feet away, with a readied action to Greater Teleport himself within 10' of Elminster with the trigger "if Elminster dispels the Cleric's Anitmagic Field".

One way or another, Elminster is stuck inside an Antimagic Field while the Half-Ogre twists him into a knot.

Now comes the clever part. The Half-Ogre purposefully deals only subdual damage and only uses the Reaping Mauler's Sleeper Hold ability. Once Elminster is unconscious, the Cleric commands a normal, human zombie which he created earlier. The zombie is armed with a Huge sap +1 (so it goes from a light weapon to a two-handed weapon, and deals 2d6 points of subdual damage on each hit with -4 to hit, and an additional -4 to hit for the zombie's nonproficiency).

The Bard strips Elminster totally naked. Then he equips him with a Ring of Sustenance and an Amulet of Adaptation. He then opens his Portable Hole and kicks Elminster's unconscious body into it. The Cleric commands the zombie into the hole, and then commands it to continuously Coup de Grace Elminster with the sap (a Coup de Grace automatically hits and is automatically a critical hit, so that every round Elminster is taking an additional 4d6+4 points of subdual damage).

Rolling the Portable Hole up, the Bard places it into a small lead chest. The lead chest is then placed into a second Portable Hole. The Bard then flies overhead while everyone else backs off, and drops a Bag of Holding into the second, open Portable Hole.

From the SRD:If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in the space: Bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost.So there you have it. Elminster is stuck forever, unaging, not needing air or sustenance, and accruing subdual damage for the rest of time, inside a Portable Hole inside a small lead box inside a Portable Hole that is "lost forever".

:D

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 08:48 AM

And I, at least, think the "I persuade him to screw himself over" approach fits just fine.

Would you allow a DM to use the same broken approach on your own mage character? Or fighter character? Or any character? Would you consider it fair or balanced or reasonable that your PCs could be sent to, ahem, forcible retirement, without any effective defense?

Remember, modron DM. Any rules calls will apply impartially to both sides. If you don't want Elminster calling Storm Silverhand over to Bluff *you* to death, reconsider. :)

Besides, it entirely fails the sniff test. If a simple Bluff roll could convince the world's greatest mage to abandon magic, then all high-level bards should be the Purple Man.

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 08:51 AM

One way or another, Elminster is stuck inside an Antimagic Field while the Half-Ogre twists him into a knot.

I'd like to remind this and everybody else who used this tactic that Elminster has the ability to dispel antimagic fields. From inside them. See 'Silver Fire' entry in post 2.

Remember also that he didn't live this long by not knowing when to make a tactical withdrawal and come back reinforced. If the circumstances you set up are such that a sane man would be running, he'll run. And then hunt you down later on *his* terms.

voidstate

08-02-2006, 08:53 AM

Would kidnapping Ed Greenwood and forcing him to rewrite Elminster as a syphallitic, handicapped, brain-damaged, level 1 commoner, Misery style, be breaking the rules?

Mr Adventurer

08-02-2006, 08:53 AM

I'd like to remind this and everybody else who used this tactic that Elminster has the ability to dispel antimagic fields. From inside them. See 'Silver Fire' entry in post 2.

Remember also that he didn't live this long by not knowing when to make a tactical withdrawal and come back reinforced. If the circumstances you set up are such that a sane man would be running, he'll run. And then hunt you down later on *his* terms.
I don't need reminding; I also read the part where he can only use it once every 70 minutes. That's why I've got so many different contingent Antimagic Fields, so that after he dispels on or two there are still more.

Also, my circumstances aren't such that a sane, 30th level mage would run. He's being attacked by a Encounter Level 19 encounter, or four CR 15 creatures if you prefer. These guys ought to be peanuts.

Random Nerd

08-02-2006, 08:53 AM

I take it as a given that the Modron GM will break the rules in favor of neither side.

Sure, a totally munchkinned Bluff roll can persuade almost anyone of almost anything. Damn straight it can. And you know what else? An absurdly high BAB can hit almost anything, an overamped spell that does ridiculous amounts of damage can kill almost anything, and so on. Sure, it's munchkinish. But that's rather the point, and at least it isn't PunPun or the Omniscifier.

As for him calling in his friends to bluff you to death, reconsider your own rules. Elminster doesn't even know he's in danger until you do something to reveal it to him. As the only thing you do is persuade him, and after that he believes you, at no point does he have a reason to send his friends after you.

UglyJimStudly

08-02-2006, 08:54 AM

Ah... but Bluff I believe only works on NPCs (PCs being granted freedom to react as they want and not capable of having their attitudes adjusted), and Elminster is clearly a GMPC.

Bluff works fine on PCs, it's just restricted to adjusting somebody's attitude on a very temporary basis (1 round or less). It's a perfectly reasonable tactic against Elminster to set him momentarily off-guard, just not useful for the sort of long-run attitude adjustment discussed earlier.

Folks might be overthinking things. Look at his statblock in the ELH, compare it to CR 20ish critters in the MM, and he's actually not that tough an opponent IMHO. If Elminster knows you're gunning for him and meets you fully prepared, you're in for a real tough fight, but taking him down in an ambush-type situation is mostly a matter of managing his escape abilities.

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 08:55 AM

Hrm. Ed Greenwood doesn't even *exist* from the POV of the Realms and people in it (which includes yer hypothetical PCs in this contest). Not unless we allow in novel/story continuity, which we said we weren't.

And even in that continuity, Ed's just this guy that Elminster visits during his planar journeys, and the Forgotten Realms supplements are supposedly something that Greenwood wrote up from the stories told him by this wandering sage. IOW, the Realms supposedly dictates what's in the sourcebooks, not vice versa.

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 08:56 AM

I don't need reminding; I also read the part where he can only use it once every 70 minutes. That's why I've got so many different contingent Antimagic Fields, so that after he dispels on or two there are still more.

And after he dispels the first one, he's gonna either leave or chain-nuke all your unfired contingencies at once with a Mord's disjunction. Because, y'know, you can't just write the guy like a total moron for your convenience.

Hell with it, new rule. I obviously left a fatal bug in this contest's design, time to fix it while I still can.

Mr Adventurer

08-02-2006, 08:59 AM

And after he dispels the first one, he's gonna either leave or chain-nuke all your unfired contingencies at once with a Mord's disjunction. Because, y'know, you can't just write the guy like a total moron for your convenience.

Hell with it, new rule. I obviously left a fatal bug in this contest's design, time to fix it while I still can.
I'm sorry that you seem to think that I am. I will merely note, then, that my Wizard is waiting well outside the area of a Mordenkainen's Disjunction with a readied action.

There are dozens of ways to be suddenly next to Elminster with an Antimagic Field. The more I think about it, the more I realise that the way I posted is actually an overcomplicated an inelegant way of going about it.

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 08:59 AM

Rule 6 -- There Are Reasons He's Already Lived This Long, Remember Them:

Again, to keep the contest from being a simple 'My uber-whatever just spits on him and he dies!', which is something that from the beginning was stated we were going to try and avoid, any plan that has Elminster acting uncharacteristically stupid or not using his available resources with reasonable prudence will be disqualified and earn the poster no points. Role-play Elminster like the guy who actually has lived this many centuries against the determined efforts of that many Realms villains, some of them much buffer than you, who have all repeatedly tried to kill him.

We're trying to come up with a plan that PCs in a Realms game could actually hope to use in play. Not to have fun describing a stupid old idiot taking a comedic dive.

Random Nerd

08-02-2006, 09:01 AM

Rule 6 -- There Are Reasons He's Already Lived This Long, Remember Them:

Hint: Most of then rhyme with "Fred Bleenwood."

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 09:01 AM

I'm sorry that you seem to think that I am. I will merely note, then, that my Wizard is waiting well outside the area of a Mordenkainen's Disjunction with a readied action.

In that case, Elminster's action is simply to *bamf* the hell out of there.

BTW, antimagic field is a spell that's centered on the caster.

Old Geezer

08-02-2006, 09:01 AM

Who's Elminster?

I'm serious. Who is he? I'm totally telling the truth - I don't know. Some uber D&D goober, I guess.

But if he's supposed to be famous or something, he just died of embarassment.

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 09:02 AM

As for him calling in his friends to bluff you to death, reconsider your own rules. Elminster doesn't even know he's in danger until you do something to reveal it to him.

You're trying to convince him to abandon magic in a debate. Him calling in the highest-powered Mystra-worshipping debater he knows -- who actually does live right next door -- so totally not unreasonable.

But, seriously, we're done talking about the stupid Bluff thing now. Optimized is one thing, munchkined to the point of absurdity is another.

Remember, at least try to *pretend* this is a planning session for a real Realms campaign.

UglyJimStudly

08-02-2006, 09:03 AM

Role-play Elminster like the guy who actually has lived this many centuries against the determined efforts of that many Realms villains, some of them much buffer than you, who have all repeatedly tried to kill him.

You can't actually reconcile this with his given statblock, so you'll either have to assume the villains were mostly completely inept or his stats are much better than those given. He just doesn't have anywhere near as many capabilities on his character sheet as he does at the end of J. Random FR Novelist's pen.

Simon Marks

08-02-2006, 09:04 AM

And after he dispels the first one, he's gonna either leave or chain-nuke all your unfired contingencies at once with a Mord's disjunction. Because, y'know, you can't just write the guy like a total moron for your convenience.

I, uh...

That doesn't work, because whatever happens he is within an Antimagic field.
The contingencies kick off instantly and the contingency is "Elminster isn't in an AM field"

Unless he can counter 3+ antimagic fields, in one round, he's toast

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 09:04 AM

Isn't anybody going to try and actually beat the guy with any other line of approach then 'Demand the DM writes him like an idiot?'

UglyJimStudly

08-02-2006, 09:05 AM

Who's Elminster?

I'm serious. Who is he? I'm totally telling the truth - I don't know. Some uber D&D goober, I guess.

A high-level NPC wizard in the Forgotten Realms setting. If you're really curious, Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elminster) has an overview, as with all things geeky.

Jackob

08-02-2006, 09:06 AM

Fine. The modron DM rules that a debate about the metaphysics of the universe -- which is exactly what the player was trying, no matter what you claim(*) -- doesn't use the Bluff skill at all. On *either* side. It's a contest of Spellcraft or Knowledge (Arcana). The modron says so let it be written, so let it be done, no appeals.
(snip)

It isn't a debate, it's fast-talk. Every time Elminster tries to turn it into a debate, you use your ungodly Bluff to delay debate a little longer while pulling him towards your goal. Since Elminster can't beat your Bluff, hecan't resist being pulled aloing while being delayed from turning it into a debate.

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 09:06 AM

I, uh...

That doesn't work, because whatever happens he is within an Antimagic field. The contingencies kick off instantly and the contingency is "Elminster isn't in an AM field"

Unless he can counter 3+ antimagic fields, in one round, he's toast

You can't stack 3 contingencies on you. And the AM field and the contingencies both center on you, so you have to be in range of the guy.

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 09:07 AM

It isn't a debate, it's fast-talk. Every time Elminster tries to turn it into a debate, you use your ungodly Bluff to delay debate a little longer while pulling him towards your goal. Since Elminster can't beat your Bluff, hecan't resist being pulled aloing while being delayed from turning it into a debate.

The modron DM exercises the sacred prerogative of the DM to say 'Forget it, I've already made my ruling.' and moves on with the game.

Seriously, Bluff ain't freakin' omnipotent and, as has been pointed out, allows for only the most momentary reaction adjustments.

Mechwarrior5

08-02-2006, 09:07 AM

Well, depending on how many HP elminster has:

1) Elminster is caught unaware (if that can be done.)
2) He is surprised and attacked by 6 shocker lizards.
3) Working together, the shocker lizards zap him for 12d8 damage.
4) If they somehow win initiative, shocker lizards do another 12d8 damage.

shocker lizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shockerLizard.htm)

Now, depending on the rolls involved, the lizards can do a maximum of 196 damage in these two turns, which can be reduced to half on a successful reflex save against DC 16. The shocking power is a supernatural ability, so I don't know if any kind of spell resistance would effect it. Should he survive the initial damage, Elminster would either teleport away or drop a fireball and kill the scaley bastards.

Anyway, my point is that if he doesn't have an ungodly number of HP (which he very well might), he could be killed... by 6 CR 2 creatures, no less.

At the very least, it's a mean, mean thing to throw at your 10th level warrior who's getting a bit too big for his britches.

SocratesGoneMad

08-02-2006, 09:08 AM

I really don't know FR or d20 that well, but could an evil power like Cyric or Bane appeal to other powers, saying "Hey, we're evil and all, but Mystra is really messing around with the world in ways even I don't. Fair is fair but, balance has to be maintained. I don't have champions like this. Neither does Malar or Umberlee or Talos, or any of us. For the sake of balance in the world, can't we take this guy out?"

I don't think Elminster would be able to take on a handful of fearful gods who are afraid that this mortal is getting a bit too powerful and uppity.

I cheated, but hey, at least something can kill him

Random Nerd

08-02-2006, 09:08 AM

You can't stack 3 contingencies on you.

The rules don't specify a single PC versus hm. Three or four wizards capable of setting up antimagic contingencies can easily gank him.

The modron DM exercises the sacred prerogative of the DM to say 'Forget it, I've already made my ruling.' and moves on with the game.

You've made your ruling, we've made ours.

Now, the Uberbluffer is currently in the lead. Who can kill Elminster with a lower level nonkobold character, or in a more inventive way?

Mr Adventurer

08-02-2006, 09:08 AM

In that case, Elminster's action is simply to *bamf* the hell out of there.

BTW, antimagic field is a spell that's centered on the caster.
Seriously? His first tactic at the sight of a few guys, the biggest one of which is inside an Antimagic Field, is to teleport away? Why?

Also, I am aware of the rules. None of my plan requires you to be able to cast AMF at range. What's your point?

GrimGent

08-02-2006, 09:08 AM

You can't stack 3 contingencies on you.How about three spellcasters, each with one contingency?

Grimkrieg

08-02-2006, 09:08 AM

How did you stop him from calling in reinforcements -- of which he has ridiculous amounts potentially on tap -- so that he didn't exhaust himself and leave himself totally vulnerable? (BTW, "no time to gather them" isn't operative, most of those reinforcements are Chosen of Mystra on almost the same level as him, and a quick message spell will have them teleporting over.)

Because this one has been tried on him before, and see above about how despite hating him, we really can't run him like he's got Int 3 and Wis 3.

Thats the great thing Cglasgow, if a big enough disaster is created they will alreeady be involved by default. Also I find it very interesting that you seem to think someone who sacrifices themselves when all other options are exhausted is stupid (the int 3, wis 3 comment is not needed at all dude).

Besides I am assuming he and his cheesy friends find a way out of the situation: at that point once they have depleted most of their resources they are extremely vulnerable.

Vitriol

08-02-2006, 09:09 AM

Once Elminster is unconscious, the Cleric commands a normal, human zombie which he created earlier. The zombie is armed with a Huge sap +1 (so it goes from a light weapon to a two-handed weapon, and deals 2d6 points of subdual damage on each hit with -4 to hit, and an additional -4 to hit for the zombie's nonproficiency).

The Bard strips Elminster totally naked. Then he equips him with a Ring of Sustenance and an Amulet of Adaptation. He then opens his Portable Hole and kicks Elminster's unconscious body into it. The Cleric commands the zombie into the hole, and then commands it to continuously Coup de Grace Elminster with the sap (a Coup de Grace automatically hits and is automatically a critical hit, so that every round Elminster is taking an additional 4d6+4 points of subdual damage).

Rolling the Portable Hole up, the Bard places it into a small lead chest. The lead chest is then placed into a second Portable Hole. The Bard then flies overhead while everyone else backs off, and drops a Bag of Holding into the second, open Portable Hole.

From the SRD:So there you have it. Elminster is stuck forever, unaging, not needing air or sustenance, and accruing subdual damage for the rest of time, inside a Portable Hole inside a small lead box inside a Portable Hole that is "lost forever".

:D
Sniff.

That's beautiful, man.

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 09:10 AM

Thats the great thing Cglasgow, if a big enough disaster is created they will alreeady be involved by default.

You're going to have explain how your non-epic PCs created a disaster that large, you know.

Mr Adventurer

08-02-2006, 09:11 AM

You can't stack 3 contingencies on you. And the AM field and the contingencies both center on you, so you have to be in range of the guy.
That's why I used Magic Jar, multiple spellcasters, and Craft Contingent Spell, which is an Item Creation feat from Complete Arcane. Crafted Contingent Spells are essentially slotless magic items; the feat specifically limits them to a number equal to your Con score.

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 09:13 AM

How about three spellcasters, each with one contingency?

Remember, he sees you and what spells you have on you in line-of-sight radius.

So, *three* spellcasters -- plus a half-ogre -- with contingency effects cast on them are walking towards Elminster? All of them visibly armed and armored for battle?

At this point, anybody with the wits God gave a flea would see an incoming attack run and respond accordingly.

Y'all have to get within ten feet, remember. And he can teleport away as a free action (trigger contingency), remember, as soon as he can see a need to. So, full move (run) thataway, *pop*.

Also note that your plan relied on getting intiative on Elminster in every single round. Not so likely.

Valid point with Crafted Contingent Spell getting around the Contingency limit, granted.

Jackob

08-02-2006, 09:14 AM

You're going to have explain how your non-epic PCs created a disaster that large, you know.

Easy - one of the PCs is of that ungoldy Hulking Hurler build that might still be on WotC's board. I don't have the link, but last I looked, the Level 20 build they had could do enough damage with a... iridium sphere, I think... that it was decided it would crack a planet.

Level 20 character, non-Epic, ready to crack the Realms. Disaster.

Mr Adventurer

08-02-2006, 09:15 AM

Sniff.

That's beautiful, man.
Thanks dude :D.

As you may be able to guess, I have thought about how to deal with high-powered assholes before.

The problem with Elminster, and many other high-level characters, is that if you kill them their pals have them Raised. If you kill them with Death effects, their pals Ressurect. If you destroy the body, their pals True Ressurect.

That's why the trick isn't to kill them at all. Once you get them unconscious, you only need to find a way of keeping them like that until they die of old age (or forever, for immortals). And that's why I came up with the "zombie in a hole" trick.

The "forever lost" part from the Portable Hole+Bag of Holding trick is just to prevent them ever being rescued.

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 09:16 AM

They'd probably /Wish/ around that some weeks later, after searching for his missing ass and not finding it, but hey, keeping him 'dead' for even as much as one lousy month is about 29 days longer than anybody else has ever managed, so it definitely deserves kudos.

I agree with you, entirely, that suspended animation works better than death. (Note that 'loss of mental faculties' and 'loss of physical faculties' are two of the six 'auto-pop' contingency triggers, so you'll have to take that bad boy down first, yes.)

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 09:18 AM

Easy - one of the PCs is of that ungoldy Hulking Hurler build that might still be on WotC's board. I don't have the link, but last I looked, the Level 20 build they had could do enough damage with a... iridium sphere, I think... that it was decided it would crack a planet.

Level 20 character, non-Epic, ready to crack the Realms. Disaster.

... the point of this exercise is to prove that good, smart players can beat cheese, not to become an even bigger cheese than Eltwinkmo.

I know the Hulking Hurler of which you speak, and its practically the Platonic Ideal of what's wrong with d20 system mechanics. For the sake of our pride, as well as our sanity, let's not get /that/ desperate.

Grimkrieg

08-02-2006, 09:20 AM

You're going to have explain how your non-epic PCs created a disaster that large, you know.

Well, the highest level person on RL earth is maybe CR5, and we have managed to create some pretty brutal disasters :)

Really though, all the party has to do is find someone who can track where he goes when his evasion bamfs him away. Then wait for someone else to do do it and destroy his body quickly in the round or so it takes his friends to teleport there...

Random Nerd

08-02-2006, 09:22 AM

For that matter, to get the party with the contingencies within range of him...

Just add a Hulking Hurler to the group, hollow out a boulder and pad the interior, put the rest of them inside, and toss it at him from behind. Since his contingencies only apply when he's actually affected, and he gets hit with the multiple antimagic fields before that happens...

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 09:24 AM

Well, the highest level person on RL earth is maybe CR5, and we have managed to create some pretty brutal disasters :)

Yes, but taking over a nation and starting a global war is something that the Harpers tend to notice while it's still in progress. :D

> Really though, all the party has to do is find someone who can track
> where he goes when his evasion bamfs him away.

Private demiplane he done created himself. You can imagine the odds of anyone finding it without his help.

> Then wait for someone else to do do it and destroy his body quickly in
> the round or so it takes his friends to teleport there...

Assuming you somehow found the place -- and they retconned away where it supposedly was in 2e (as it was deeeeeeeeeeeeeeep in wildspace then, and Spelljammer it no exist no more), so it can potentially be any gods-be-damned-where. So, presume that it's in the worst possible spot the PCs could ever hope to try and get to, because that's exactly where you're supposed to put this kind of thing.

At any rate, assuming you got there, the defenses would keep you kinda busy for the one round you were there before his friends arrived. (Little things like permanently invisible advanced iron golems and such. Just a trifle.)

faust

08-02-2006, 09:28 AM

Let's try another tack with our social monkey. This time, we max out diplomacy, bluff, and whichever skill is used for forging documents (I forget at the moment, because I'm at work and don't feel like hunting the SRD). Said social monkey uses diplomacy to convince a very evil wizard and a very evil cleric (each 20th level) to help out on the mission. That should actually not be very hard.

Between the wizard and the cleric, we should be able to arrange conference calls with Bane. The diplomacy and bluff checks are to convince Bane that we want to work for him, collecting souls on the mortal plane. All we need from him is a few open contracts of servitude, signed in blood. Then we call up Cyric and make the same arrangement. We then take two such contracts from Bane, and one such contract from Cyric. Settle down in a nice cozy workspace, with continual light, a lot of coffee, and maybe an xbox for when we need a break. Take 20 on three forgery checks to perfectly forge Elminster's name at the bottom of each one. Take a minute to doublecheck our work. Call for some take-out food.

Next day, send Bane's contract back to him, signed and sealed. Do the same for Cyric. Sit back and enjoy the show as Bane and Cyric tear Elminster apart, fighting over his soul. The real trick here is that you've also sent the second copy of the perfectly forged contract with Bane to Mystra, along with a perfectly forged letter from Elminster dumping his girlfriend.

When faced with an opponent so overwhelmingly powerful you have no hope of victory....don't face him.

I'm sure cglasgow will object to this idea, but considering Elminster is a DM fiat character anyway, it would actually require a DM fiat to remove him. And we all know Modron DM's don't make fiats.

Unless of course it is actually cglasgow wearing a modron mask :)

Simon Marks

08-02-2006, 09:28 AM

5 18-20th level rogues, all with maxed out Move Silently, Hide and Use magical Device.

Elminster can't spot/listen to save his life IIRC - certainly not to the +25 levels that can be gotten.

In any case. Assuming they can find Elminster (1 has Gather Information at +25 as well), they sneak upto him and sneak attack him (with saps) to inflict 50d6 odd of Stun Damage. His contingency won't work because all of them have an Anitmagic field up.

Then all you need is the zombie/Portable hole/Bag of Holding method.

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 09:32 AM

I appreciate the homage to John Constantine, but under D&D 3e "Deities & Demigods" cosmology, also backed up by D&D 3e Realms "Faiths & Avatars", a deity knows -- beyond doubt -- whether or not a given soul is one of his worshippers. (Divine Sensing).

So, both Bane and Cyric would go 'Nice try, but we don't remember him actually signing it over, and our divine powers don't register him as being among our faithful.'

Likewise, Mystra goes 'um, no, his soul, it's still resonating as one of my faithful.'

In Cyric's case its even worse -- he's God of Lies, sensing lies and deceptions is part of his portfolio sense. So he takes one look at the paper and goes "Bwhahahahahahahahahahahahaha! That's funny! That's really funny! ... fiends, kill this insolent fool." and goes back to his coffee. Ground from the essence of a thousand screaming souls, of course. :)

radiant song

08-02-2006, 09:33 AM

I recommend as an intermediate stage having a bunch of high-level bards and rogues go around for a few years spreading ill words against Elminster. Remind the masses that he is an enormously powerful and ancient wizard who regularly boinks a goddess AND the Simbul of Aglarond.

Not only does this rob the big E of his ginormous (millions of people) support group (which is always important) but, more importantly, it discredits him.

There is no point in making a martyr out of Elminster. We have to DISCREDIT him first.

Hmm. Do you think it's possible that something bad might happen to Elminster if we tell the Simbul that her boyfriend has slept with her mother? Mystra is the mom of the Seven Sisters, after all.

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 09:34 AM

His contingency won't work because all of them have an Anitmagic field up.

Detect Magic, always-on, line of sight, remember?

Having an active magical effect on you of any kind makes you glow in the dark to Elminster. Which rules out Hide skill, 'cause you kinda can't do that while carrying a torch. :)

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 09:36 AM

I recommend as an intermediate stage having a bunch of high-level bards and rogues go around for a few years spreading ill words against Elminster.

I appreciate the thought, but he owns an even *BIGGER* bunch of high-level bards and rogues -- the Harpers are a /direly/ effective propaganda arm, remember.

(And two of the Harper's divine sponsors are Oghma, God of Lore, and Milil, God of Song...)

[snip]
> Hmm. Do you think it's possible that something bad might happen to
> Elminster if we tell the Simbul that her boyfriend has slept with her
> mother? Mystra is the mom of the Seven Sisters, after all.

The thought of the Simbul on a jealous rampage would horrify any sane man.

... sadly, you won't get one. Her and Elminster have an open relationship. She knows he's poly, she accepts it.

Neall Raemonn Price

08-02-2006, 09:36 AM

Who's Elminster?

I'm serious. Who is he? I'm totally telling the truth - I don't know. Some uber D&D goober, I guess.

But if he's supposed to be famous or something, he just died of embarassment.

He is the Mary Sue of Ed Greenwood.

Elminster Aumar. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elminster)

He has a reputation for being nigh-unkillable, since a Greater Deity will gladly invade Hell for him and he has dozens of friends waiting to Wish or True Resurrect him.

In the Age of Exalted, telling the PC's that they cannot do something - like kill Elminster - tends to stick in their craw a bit.

radiant song

08-02-2006, 09:37 AM

I agree and insist that the way to kill Elminster is not by magic. He excels at magic, and whenever possible, one should avoid attacking an opponent's strengths.

faust

08-02-2006, 09:37 AM

Drat. In that case I would cast wish: "I wish Elminster had never existed."

No bonus points for surviving, because I'm sure the Realms would have been destroyed seven times over without his intervention. But we got the bugger.

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 09:38 AM

We all know that Wishing someone to be dead, or nonexistent, just plain don't work.

I understand the temptation, mind... :)

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 09:44 AM

BTW, as a note, I sometimes miss 2nd edition.

Back then, dropping green slime on him and then somehow keeping him from effective spellcasting for 1d4 rounds was all it would take. :D

Now? Frickin' nerfy green slime. It barely stings! What kinda slime is this?

KreenWarrior

08-02-2006, 09:44 AM

... the point of this exercise is to prove that good, smart players can beat cheese, not to become an even bigger cheese than Eltwinkmo.

I know the Hulking Hurler of which you speak, and its practically the Platonic Ideal of what's wrong with d20 system mechanics. For the sake of our pride, as well as our sanity, let's not get /that/ desperate.
...you expect people to be able to beat a character 15th levels higher than them without cheese? How the hell could you possibly manage that? Killing high level abusive characters is an excercise in cheese, that's the whole point. Otherwise, there's really nothing that can be done. If you want to kill Elminster withou cheesiness, you need epic level characters. They're fairly common in the Realms, as it was designed to accomodate epic level play.

Honestly, I'm not sure what you want out of the contest.

Oh well, at least most people seem to be having fun with it.

Cessna

08-02-2006, 09:46 AM

I'm picturing a sort of "City built around the Tarrasque," but with Elminster in the center...

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 09:47 AM

...you expect people to be able to beat a character 15th levels higher than them without cheese?

Hey, I once beat the tarrasque with 1st level characters. :D

(It involved green slime. And a booby-trapped cow.)

Sadly, that doens't work with 3e green slime, but it was fun.

You have a point in that /some/ cheese will be necessary, but can we at least hold out for /tasteful/ cheese? The Hulking Hurler, it's the equivalent of winning a Quake tournament by somehow getting past their Punkbuster and loading an aimbot. It's... tacky.

radiant song

08-02-2006, 09:47 AM

I appreciate the thought, but he owns an even *BIGGER* bunch of high-level bards and rogues -- the Harpers are a /direly/ effective propaganda arm, remember.

(And two of the Harper's divine sponsors are Oghma, God of Lore, and Milil, God of Song...)

Harpers Shmarpers. Just because he's a Master Harper doesn't mean the big E owns them. They're only human (or elvish, or whatever). Even powerful bards and rogues are susceptible to envy, and their lessers certainly are.

The big E probably does own some the Harpers, it just means you have to recruit or convert a large and skilled enough army of persuaders.

Also, Oghma and Milil are not necessarily in favor of Elminster.

The thought of the Simbul on a jealous rampage would horrify any sane man.

... sadly, you won't get one. Her and Elminster have an open relationship. She knows he's poly, she accepts it.

Yes, but her mom? I don't actually know anyone who has slept with a man who's slept with her mom, but somehow I don't believe she'd be as complacent about that.

Face it, the Simbul is a perfectionist, power-hungry woman. She has to be; otherwise she would never have reached the heights of magic that she has. So not only is Elminster sleeping with her mom, he's sleeping with a more powerful magic-user than she.

I could be wrong, but in my opinion, that's got to hurt.

Ozymandias

08-02-2006, 09:48 AM

You've made your ruling, we've made ours.

Now, the Uberbluffer is currently in the lead. Who can kill Elminster with a lower level nonkobold character, or in a more inventive way?
There's the character in post 17 (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=6109351&postcount=17) who can keep summoning 27 HD 140% real illusory dragons at level 20.

drek

08-02-2006, 09:48 AM

He is a good guy, right? Wouldn't the best way to kill him therefore be to threaten something important (the realms, his goddess, or whatever) in such a fashion that the only way for him to stop the menace is by sacrificing himself in the grand tradition of epic heroes everywhere?

That's the key to his well deserved destruction.

Note, I've never read any 3.5e books, never studied 3e, so I can't list all the munckin spells and abilities required to pull this off. Given the girth of 3e, I assume all the superpowers required as possible through various means.

Phase One:
A potent Lawful Evil necromancer specializing in magical item creation gets a wild hair up his arse and decides that Elminister must die. And why not?

He invents a triggerable Necrotic Bomb device that kills via energy drain in a very wide radius, and sets forth with his faithful army of apprentices and minions constructing these devices. Each device is set up to asplode upon triggering a specially researched low level contingency type spell/feat/whatever. Mr. Necro trains up enough apprentices (via some sort of cult perhaps) to have enough magical contingencies to cover thousands of bombs. Each apprentice is linked to the head necro through some arcane means (because he's a necro, and they can do stuff like that), so that he can snuff out the apprentice's life and trigger the contingency pretty much at will.

Contingencies simlair to Elminister's plot protection escape spells are set up on the head necro, so that in the event of his untimely demise or extreme incapacitation, his apprentices are slain--triggering the bombs.

Hired thieves and other low life scum distribute the bombs to villages, hamlets, out of the way towns all across the Realms. Major cities are mostly avoided to decrease the chances of the plan being discovered.

Phase One has a time table of one decade, but ultimately can go on for as long as required (up until the natural lifespan of apprentices linked to the Bombs).

Phase Two:
The necromancer sets forth on a crazy plan for world domination, or whatever. The plan is designed to be attention grabbing, spectacular, but ultimately futile. It must be robust enough to resist common adventurer intervention, yet not so threatening that Elminister feels the need to call in the reinforcement.

The goal is to have a face-to-face one-to-one meeting with Elminister. Steps should be taken to make it personal, perhaps via the gruesome slaughter of some of Elminister's personal pet adventurers.

I have no idea what sort of plan meets these qualifications, and it's not really important. I think my smarty-pants 19 or 20 Intelligence necro can figure this part out for himself.

Phase Three:

Elminister dresses down our necro-hero, explains to him just how stupid and doomed-to-fail his plan for world domination actually is.

The necro politely askes Elminister to cast detect lie (or whatever), then explains his entire plan without skipping any important details.

The necro ends with "I have just set off the first set of Necrotic Bombs, destroying the happy village of such-and-such. Until you meet my demands, I will continue to destroy villages, eventually resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent little low-leveled peasants. If you meet my demands, the network of Bombs will be disarmed and I will give up my profession as a crazed megalomaniac spellcaster. You have my word on this, and as your magic can tell, I am not lieing."

"I demand that you drop all contingencies and other such magical protections, then stab yourself in the heart. Continue stabbing until you are dead. You have ten seconds before I trigger the next set of Bombs."

"And so, old man, what is more important to you? A life that has already run it's course a hundred times over, or uncountable innocents?"

Silent Wayfarer

08-02-2006, 09:51 AM

I should note that with the Craft Contingent Spell feat from Complete Arcane, you CAN stack tons of contingencies on you. 1 per HD, in fact.

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 09:52 AM

> Harpers Shmarpers. Just because he's a Master Harper doesn't mean
> the big E owns them. They're only human (or elvish, or
> whatever). Even powerful bards and rogues are susceptible to envy,
> and their lessers certainly are.

The Harpers already had their schism recently, with the defection of Khelben and the Moonstars. Everybody who didn't want to be on Elminster's team already left then.

There's nowhere near as many Moonstars as Harpers, and Khelben got whacked recently. Furthermore, they have their own goals, and getting involved in a futile propaganda war vs. Elminster, not on it.

[snip]
> Also, Oghma and Milil are not necessarily in favor of Elminster.

They won't help you act against him, either, is the point, as it would effectively destroy the organization they want to, y'know, not be destroyed.

So, basically, the two largest bardic organizations on Faerun -- one of them Elminster owns, the second one is a neutral in this fight. Makes the propaganda war reaaaaaaaaally problematic.

> Yes, but her mom? I don't actually know anyone who has slept with
> a man who's slept with her mom, but somehow I don't believe she'd
> be as complacent about that.

Discussing the sex habits of the more libertine Chosen of Mystra in detail would be NSFW. Suffice it to say that jaded immortals do very strange things sometimes, and are really blase about stuff.

> Face it, the Simbul is a perfectionist, power-hungry woman. She has
> to be; otherwise she would never have reached the heights of magic
> that she has. So not only is Elminster sleeping with her mom, he's
> sleeping with a more powerful magic-user than she.

You have a point in that she should be upset about Elminster sleeping with *any* other woman, much less her mother -- but canonically, she's not. Consider it another manifestation of the big E's Mary Sue aura, I guess. God knows I do.

radiant song

08-02-2006, 09:54 AM

A 2nd intermediate stage that we must go through is convincing the God of Death (currently Kelemevor, I think) to disallow Elminster's resurrection.

His allies (and even Mystra, if we allow it) can cast raise dead after raise dead all they want. If the God of the Dead vetoes the big E's return to life, he doesn't return to life, no matter what.

That might be very difficult to accomplish, or it might be as easy as bribing the highest-level priest of Kelemvor to put a word in the ear of his god.

Quendalon

08-02-2006, 09:54 AM

Sneak into Elminster's house while he's out visiting the planes (a mind blanked high-level rogue should be able to handle this part).

Steal his favorite robe.

Enchant it as a robe of powerlessness.

Cast Nystul's undetectable aura on the robe.

Return the robe to Elminster's house.

Wait for him to put it on.

Profit!

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 09:55 AM

Re: the necrotic bombs:

Now we're redoing the one Prometheus tried on Superman. 'Kill yourself or all these innocents die.'

Elminster -- /Time Stop/, /Forget/, /Modify Memory/.

When our necro regains possession of himself, he'll totally have not noticed that little lapse in time, and he'll indeed have 'seen' Elminster whack himself.

OTOH, I did at least like the 'threaten lots of places with apprentice bombs' trick, even if you probably wouldn't get more than a couple dozen villages, as opposed to hundreds. That's not apprentices, that's an army, and people notice that kinda thing.

AmesJainchill

08-02-2006, 09:56 AM

Besides, it entirely fails the sniff test. If a simple Bluff roll could convince the world's greatest mage to abandon magic, then all high-level bards should be the Purple Man.

Excellent reference.

Jon Chung

08-02-2006, 09:58 AM

There's the character in post 17 (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=6109351&postcount=17) who can keep summoning 27 HD 140% real illusory dragons at level 20.

It also gets around the "get him to come out and fight" problem by exploiting his alignment - he can't really stand by and watch while an infinite army of dragons eats the Realms.

Thought my post somehow got lost in the clutter.

Anyway, can be done at level 17. The required class abilities are acquired very early, and 9th level spell access is the only other required element.

faust

08-02-2006, 09:58 AM

One more before I get back to work:

A elven bard with a disgusting level of disguise and Profession: barber sets up shop as a barber in Shadowdale. Over the next three years, he accumulates as much biological material from Elminster as possible (hair and nail trimmings, a few drops of blood when we "accidentally" nick him, etc.). Then he disguises himself as a very rich orc to hire up a band of evil wizards with the proceeds of our accumulated three years of Profession checks. We have them go around all the lovely good-aligned kingdoms where Elminster enjoys a good reputation, wreaking magical destruction and leaving bits of Elminster behind as evidence. Obviously, this is not going to actually drive his allies to wipe him out (nor could they if they wanted to). At some point, a la Spiderman v. Mysterio, Elminster will come to face down his framers and destroy them. This is why the bard will be living in Thay.

Anyhow, we do this again three years later. And again three years after that. Then we wait twelve years (hence the elf) just to let suspicion cool, and start up again. Hopefully by now Elminster is getting a little paranoid, and popular opinion of the man is somewhat mixed. Then, disguised as someone else entirely, he gradually forms an underground society entirely based around the belief that wizards hold an unfair monopoly of power and that normal mortals are too dependent on magic for aid. We attract nothing but basic 0-level commoners. We make sure they are all good-aligned. We make sure that we never ever preach violence or anything else uncool. We make a lot of donations and perform a lot of good works projects, to build popular opinion for the movement when it goes public. We also challenge Elminster and other wizards to frequent debates in public forums. We lobby rules to slap down restrictive laws on wizards.

We also continue with the periodic frame-ups of Elminster. We want him very very paranoid. Always in disguise, we now start wandering from kingdom to kingdom, whispering to occasional ears in various royal courts that Elminster might be a little unpredictable, a little unreliable, and maybe unhinged.

When the atmosphere feels right, we take one poor sap of a lowly commoner from the anti-wizard organization and brainwash him (and him alone) to believe that wizards must be destroyed. We give him a sharp stick and slap a very large Nystul's magical aura on him and point him in the direction of Elminster. We also make sure he's carrying his membership card. Elminster sees a magical aura coming at him and nukes the poor commoner. In his paranoid state, he goes on to destroy the entire organization the bard has secretly created.

Public opinion rubber-band snaps back in his face, and the Realm's good kingdoms are forced to destroy him. With any luck, his previous allies won't even intervene.

cglasgow

08-02-2006, 09:59 AM

> Cast Nystul's undetectable aura on the robe.

> Return the robe to Elminster's house.

> Wait for him to put it on.

Curse as 'loss of mental faculties' triggers the auto-pop evasion.

Curse even louder as a fully-restored Elminster returns in short order, tracks you down, and removes your spleen via your left ear.

But I did like the Nystul's aura trap, that part should work, and it's actually not too hard to get into his house when he's not home, as his primary security system is, y'know, him. And some non-epic locks and wards, but not too many.

Jackob

08-02-2006, 09:59 AM

Okay, I need someone who knows the D&D rules better than I do, but here's an idea...

First, the group tracks down Elminster or generates a situation where he's bound to show up. Then they keep him occupied with mid-level henchmen for a few rounds while one of the group reads Elminster's mind. If Elminster can someone sense his mind being read, well, we'll make it a choice between taking out the mind-reader who does nothing else and saving some innocent babies. Or, as I have read Elminster, we can safely assume that he is overconfident enough to believe there's no need to stop the mind-read.

Anyway, the mind-reader escapes, armed with the knowledge of Elminster's visits to Ed Greenwood. Now we need someone to be able to tag along on one of those visits. This should be feasible for a Rogue with maxed-out stealth skills, since that can easily beat Elminster's Spot, right? Or maybe you can change a character into a pin, give him the means to end the spell himself and then have a Rogue sneak up on Elminster and place the pin on the back of his cloak. IIRC, Detect Magic is based on sight and he can't see behind him.

Anyway, now we're getting a character with maxed-out social Skills to Ed Greenwood. The character remains behind when Elminster leaves and uses his ungodly Bluff, Diplomacy, whatever, to convince Ed to kill off Elminster in a novel. Goes with Ed to meet with the top WotC brass and convinces them to put it in a module where the PCs can go to Elminster's funeral. Get Ed and WotC to proclaim that; "Yes, Elminster is really dead, we mean it. We're not bringing him back, ever, trust us."

Now, in Realms-lore, Ed is simply Elminster's chronicler is our world, so Elminster's not really dead, but it won't matter to us, because to us, he actually is.

Of course, we then have to count in Elminster's massive ego. He will, of course, return to Ed and demand to be brough back so we can all be in awe of his accomplishments, so we need a way for our social expert to have wiped Ed and the WotC Top Brass' memory, so that they say that it was their own idea and it seemed like a good idea at the time. Elminster forces Ed to retcon him into life, whereupon out social master gets him offed again. Continue until the fans are so disgusted they cease being interested in Elminster and Realms material and no further books are published, the Realms are officially discontinued and Elminster might live in the Realms, but we only hear about him here in Ed Greenwood's blog.