The Next D&D 4th Edition Thread [Archive]

MutieMoe

08-04-2006, 01:59 AM

If there is one good thing about this, it is the fact that many people will be selling all their 3.0 and 3.5 books dirty cheap when switching to new edition without even first checking the 4th edition, and I can expand my collection in very budget-friendly way. Many people think that automatically newer must always be better and older must be discarded.

Asmodai

08-04-2006, 02:00 AM

On a more serious note ... it is ironic that even yesterday I got some major scoops about the future of D&D. It is sounding like some of our most paranoid fears are in fact in the works.

-4E already in the works? Check.
-Even more miniatures-centric? Check.
-Much smaller bundles of game info, packaged and sold separately? Check.
-A plan to possibly sell off RPGs entirely? Check. (Apparently only miniatures and Magic are making any money for WotC).

Unfortunately I can't go into how I got the info or who gave it to me. And I don't think even WotC knows when they're going to announce anything. I got the impression that timing such an announcement with GenCon was no longer seen as optimal or necessary. But please take all as unsubstantiated speculation ... as usual!

I don't buy it.

Already in the works? Pretty certain that's true.
More miniatures-centric? Maybe.
Smaller bundles? Not bloodly likely. Thicker hardcover supplements are the bread and butter money makers of the RPG business.
D&D Not Making Money? ROFLMAO. Right.

Piestrio

08-04-2006, 02:00 AM

Prairie Dragon

08-04-2006, 02:12 AM

Piestrio

08-04-2006, 02:15 AM

My old source told me that D&D 4e was supposed to come out during GenCon of 2008, IIRC. Look for something called 'Class Points'. Apparently, EXP will mean something more than just leveling up. One buys class features via exp, somehow...

As in "Player's option: Skills and powers" type buying of class features?

That would be an odd direction to go, but workable, hmmm....

Piestrio

Consonant Dude

08-04-2006, 02:16 AM

I love it and it makes sense, since D&D is already more a boardgame than a RPG.

WotC (or whoever ends up with the brand) is going to expand the hobby if they do this right, and make a lot of money. Meanwhile, a clearer delineation between D&D and the more standard roleplaying games with help many other companies, as roleplayers will be much less likely to use the wrong tool for the job than they are right now.

And if they opt for third party licensing, it could also be less pathetic than the OGL and D20 with some kind of quality control and products that focus on the strengths of D&D (since they would be made crystal clear if what Eric Noah says is true).

Every gamer, regardless of their appreciation for current-D&D, is going to be a winner.

MutieMoe

08-04-2006, 02:16 AM

That's how I fianlly filled out my AD&D2e collection :D

Piestrio

That's cool, and smart move, I hope you have years of gaming need stocked, I remember that when 3.0 came you could buy dozens of hardcover books for few euros. People were treating them like junk.
I actually waited on purpose and sold my old AD&D 2nd Edition books three years after the initial impact when market was flooded, and got about triple the money I originally paid for them.
AD&D 2nd Edition never got felt right for me, as contradictory as it sounds I'm more of an fan of Basic Set and the 3.x, which culminates in my like of C&C.
For almost purely emotional reasons I have not been able to sell my old beaten, clawed, bitten Boxed Set (red, blue, etc...) versions of D&D.

Piestrio

08-04-2006, 02:21 AM

That's cool, and smart move, I hope you have years of gaming need stocked, I remember that when 3.0 came you could buy dozens of hardcover books for few euros. People were treating them like junk.
I actually waited on purpose and sold my old AD&D 2nd Edition books three years after the initial impact when market was flooded, and got about triple the money I originally paid for them.
AD&D 2nd Edition never got felt right for me, as contradictory as it sounds I'm more of an fan of Basic Set and the 3.x, which culminates in my like of C&C.
For almost purely emotional reasons I have not been able to sell my old beaten, clawed, bitten Boxed Set (red, blue, etc...) versions of D&D.

Yeah, I wish I had bought a few things sooner after the release; because now prices, while still very cheap, seem to be on the rise again :(

But, I have more AD&D2e stuff than you can shake a stick at, I'm only 7 books short of the entire line sans settings. Mostly the greenbooks, which are about 10USD each now.

Oh and If you couldn't tell 2e is my favorite version of the game, thought I quite like all of them :)

Piestrio

Prairie Dragon

08-04-2006, 02:35 AM

As in "Player's option: Skills and powers" type buying of class features?

That would be an odd direction to go, but workable, hmmm....

Piestrio
Templates. Lots and lots of template 'options'...

Though, my info is now what; two years old...

Melan

08-04-2006, 02:37 AM

WotC (or whoever ends up with the brand) is going to expand the hobby if they do this right, and make a lot of money.
But the question is: which hobby? Ours? Or that other one?

drek

08-04-2006, 02:39 AM

D&D Not Making Money? ROFLMAO. Right.

I believe it, or at least it's possible. While the core books probably do turn a profit, what about all the little supplements? In aggregate, DnD might be in the red, profit-wise. Or the profit might be too slim compared to other activites WoTC could be engading in, such as CCGs and minis.

Smaller bundles?

Sure. The rules might be packaged with the minis. Instead of a hardback Psionist's Handbook, you get (random) psionic power cards with each purchase of a box of Psionists, and terse rules on how psionic power cards function differently from spell cards.

Consonant Dude

08-04-2006, 02:41 AM

But the question is: which hobby? Ours? Or that other one?

I am hopeful that it will be both.

MutieMoe

08-04-2006, 02:48 AM

Yeah, I wish I had bought a few things sooner after the release; because now prices, while still very cheap, seem to be on the rise again :(

But, I have more AD&D2e stuff than you can shake a stick at, I'm only 7 books short of the entire line sans settings. Mostly the greenbooks, which are about 10USD each now.

Oh and If you couldn't tell 2e is my favorite version of the game, thought I quite like all of them :)

Piestrio

I have never really liked the how the markets operate with old gaming material, it's either dirty cheap or priced to the roof.
Sometimes people just seem to either think "OMG somebody wants this old junk I have in attic, them must be some sort of priceless collectors items, I will buy a Porche I have allways dreamed of with all the money I will get from those old Rifts books." or "Or If I repeat my offer of 2 euros for that old D&D boxed set enough times maybe he will crack up and sell it to me, but because has so vehemently refused to bow down to my reasonable demands I will pay him only one, the dog should be happy that true connosseur like me has noticed what he most undeservingly has in his possession.".
:D

MadCow

08-04-2006, 02:51 AM

OMG this thread is growing... trying to beat their post rate, are we? ;)

Anyway the ENworld discussion has been pretty entertaining....

MutieMoe

08-04-2006, 03:03 AM

OMG this thread is growing... trying to beat their post rate, are we? ;)

Anyway the ENworld discussion has been pretty entertaining....

I didn't know this was competition. (Competition where this thread is bound to get busted on anabolic thread-lenghtener when first Rpg.netter posts something about D&D 4th Edition and it's connection to kittens dying, and first photoshop of kitten death caused by 4th Edition appears.)

Kaemaril

08-04-2006, 03:06 AM

-Much smaller bundles of game info, packaged and sold separately? Check.
Coming soon ...

Wizard Spells, $1

Long anticipated by the fans, this is the third in the Collectible Player's Handbook range after the highly sought-after Races and Classes series.

Collect them all to give your wizard ultimate power and a really, really thick spellbook. Each wizard spells pack comes in a sturdy cardboard box, each spell conveniently and safely printed on a laminated card that will fit in the new Wizards Spellbook folder (sold seperately)

Contents:
Stats cards for eight (8) randomized spells, including one ninth level spell!
Wizard spells complete list, check off which spells you already own!

Cadriel

08-04-2006, 03:11 AM

If D&D 4e came out, and was not good, wouldn't the OGL still be active to allow X company to put out the SRD with some chargen rules and light flavor text so that people could still buy in to the game? In theory, 3.x has a certain potential immortality because of Ryan Dancey's plan to get other companies to eat the losses of putting out supplements for his game.

Melan

08-04-2006, 03:21 AM

uncle_wilf

08-04-2006, 03:33 AM

I am betting on Mongoose winning in the end.Let's look at the evidence:

A month or two ago, Mongoose mentioned that they were in negotiation for "the Holy Grail" of licenses.
Mongoose have begun moving away from the d20 ruleset and towards Runequest.
there's a possible plan in the works at WotC to sell off the D&D rpg line...

Conclusion: Mongoose to release D&D4 using the RuneQuest rules system!!!!

It all makes perfect sense!!!!!

Gordon

Anfelas

08-04-2006, 03:44 AM

Coming soon ...

Wizard Spells, $1

Long anticipated by the fans, this is the third in the Collectible Player's Handbook range after the highly sought-after Races and Classes series.

Collect them all to give your wizard ultimate power and a really, really thick spellbook. Each wizard spells pack comes in a sturdy cardboard box, each spell conveniently and safely printed on a laminated card that will fit in the new Wizards Spellbook folder (sold seperately)

Contents:
Stats cards for eight (8) randomized spells, including one ninth level spell!
Wizard spells complete list, check off which spells you already own!
:)

Don't forget the Deck of Magic Items, or the Weapons and Equipment Cards...

a bit more seriously, why has WotC/Hasbro never tried to tie together MtG and D&D?

Piestrio

08-04-2006, 03:45 AM

ZOMG!!11!1!!11!111!!

drek

08-04-2006, 03:58 AM

a bit more seriously, why has WotC/Hasbro never tried to tie together MtG and D&D?

I remember back when 3e as mysterious as 4e is now, noise was being made about a Dungeons & Dragons setting based on the M:tG setting. But it never panned out because the CCG group decided it would be a bad idea. They wanted to retain full control over the setting and thought an RPG would erode this control.

All of the above is rumor probably read on usenet groups, filtered through my shoddy memory. But it makes enough sense to be probably, mostly true.

joenr76

08-04-2006, 04:07 AM

-A plan to possibly sell off RPGs entirely? Check. (Apparently only miniatures and Magic are making any money for WotC).

this sounds familiar... GW, i'm looking in your direction.

Anfelas

08-04-2006, 04:16 AM

I remember back when 3e as mysterious as 4e is now, noise was being made about a Dungeons & Dragons setting based on the M:tG setting. But it never panned out because the CCG group decided it would be a bad idea. They wanted to retain full control over the setting and thought an RPG would erode this control.

All of the above is rumor probably read on usenet groups, filtered through my shoddy memory. But it makes enough sense to be probably, mostly true.
I wasn't so much thinking of the setting - since the MtG world suffers extreme changes from time to time ;) - but more of a way to use MtG cards at the gaming table to augment your D&D character...

and I've just thought of another card range, Feats and Special Abilities ;)

Christian A

08-04-2006, 04:54 AM

Let's look at the evidence:

A month or two ago, Mongoose mentioned that they were in negotiation for "the Holy Grail" of licenses.
Mongoose have begun moving away from the d20 ruleset and towards Runequest.
there's a possible plan in the works at WotC to sell off the D&D rpg line...

Conclusion: Mongoose to release D&D4 using the RuneQuest rules system!!!!

It all makes perfect sense!!!!!

Gordon

:eek: :D

Calithena

08-04-2006, 05:08 AM

A collectible card RPG, or Mage Knight: Dungeons style RPG, with the D&D name on it would be better than the current festering pile of crap known as 3rd edition. More money to play or no. If you can make characters fast and play a game with your friends in an hour or two of free time then it's a better game. If people of average intelligence willing to give it a fair shake can grasp the basic principles of play, it's a better game.

Old D&D was not well-explained and had some clunky mechanisms but was simple enough to fit those parameters if you had a decent DM. 3e fails spectacularly at both.

I'd take collectible cards or minis over feats, skills, and prestige classes any day of the week.

Of course what I really do is keep playing with my old D&D books, but...

Brantai'sPuppet

08-04-2006, 05:22 AM

-A plan to possibly sell off RPGs entirely? Check. (Apparently only miniatures and Magic are making any money for WotC).
I can't help but think that someone at WotC is allocating more costs to the RPG division than is fair. Either that or my assumptions about D&D's sales are wildly off base.

Asmodai

08-04-2006, 05:29 AM

Not to mention that some huge proportion of D&D Miniatures sales are RPGers buying them for their games. I don't think WotC is unaware of this.

Vigorous Ape

08-04-2006, 05:52 AM

Vrecknidj

08-04-2006, 05:54 AM

Strange days. Lots of speculation. Lots of weird links: http://skerrit.livejournal.com/#entry_4003

Dave

Asmodai

08-04-2006, 06:01 AM

WotC don't want brand confusion, that's why they keep magic and D&D separate.

And there's making money, and then there's making money corporate style. I don't doubt that D&D generates nowhere near as much revenue as MTG. If WotC only cares about the bottom line then why should they bother with D&D, when they can drop it and hire staff to come up with the new Magic/Pokemon craze.

Alternatively they could continue to make money off it and hire staff to come up with the next craze.

D&D has brand recognition and market dominance and has had a dramatic resurgeance under 3.X. That's why Wizards bought it in the first place.

A lot of this thread just seems like wishful thinking from D&D haters.

TrippyHippy

08-04-2006, 06:06 AM

I can't help but think that someone at WotC is allocating more costs to the RPG division than is fair. Either that or my assumptions about D&D's sales are wildly off base.

-A plan to possibly sell off RPGs entirely? Check. (Apparently only miniatures and Magic are making any money for WotC).

This doesn't make much sense to me, considering that WotC have also committed to making a new edition of the Star Wars rpg too.

The business pattern of games, according to what was described to me by a Games Workshop employee, is that most games have a shelf-life of about 3 years before they snuff it. If they last longer than that, then they are a major game, but even then they still need to renew the game periodically to keep people interested. This is why games continually get new editions and revisions.

All that's happened to D&D recently is that it's coming to the end of it's business cycle, and the gameline is running out of steam. If that's not a good enough indication that there will be a new edition I don't know what is. Oh, and I seriously doubt that WotC will want to drop D&D so long as it remains a household brandname.

Blizzardborn

08-04-2006, 07:38 AM

Magic and D&D. Another setting controlled by metaplot determined by CCG tournaments. Excuse me while I go weep over my L5R stuff.

I'm back.

I notice people keep talking about 4E having Hero Points or Character Points. I find it interesting that they are apparently adopting the system used in the same line they axed==Alternity.

Maybe my irony detector needs tuning.

BB

Chiaroscuro

08-04-2006, 09:05 AM

Isn't this just a bargain bundle of what the doomsayers have been predicting for the last year?

In the absence of an official announcement I'll follow Morrus's own advice and disregard.
Yeah, except a trustworthy guy is saying he heard it from an unnamed source. Does that make it more likely than when other guys were saying similar things?

Anyway, it's not a big deal. A new edition is obviously coming sometime. It's not like that means doom and gloom or anything, but it is a factor in buying habits. The company doesn't want to announce any earlier than they have to. And if you're going to abandon 3e entirely when 4e comes out, it makes sense to buy fewer supplements during the tail end of 3e, because you'll get less use out of them. (Well, it makes sense if you require a certain number of game-hours out of your supplements, anyway.)

But any of those things might not be true in your case, and then it doesn't need to affect your purchasing habits at all. So no, the sky isn't falling. But rumors and guesses might affect your or my specific consumption choices.

-C.

Zoombaba

08-04-2006, 09:06 AM

Actually, I think an RPG that ditched the massive rulebooks would be sweet. Packaged in small $1 chunks (a mini here, a class progression there) -- I'd be all for it. You could put all kinds of elements on cards: game mechanics, setting elements, etc. There'd be player cards and GM cards with all the rules on them. Can you imagine where ditch your character sheet and it's just a collection of cards? Sweet man.

Do I think D&D 4th is going to do this? Hell no. Come on, they're not going to change the game that radically. Can they call it D&D without the Player's Handbook, DM's Guide, and the Monster Manual?

What do I see? More support for the harried GM with mix'n'match scenario elements (like you've been seeing in the Eberron line). Simplifying the GM side of things with added complexity on the Player's side. Cause I think that's what gamers want, and I think they know that.

Shindorim

08-04-2006, 09:18 AM

Do I think D&D 4th is going to do this? Hell no. Come on, they're not going to change the game that radically. Can they call it D&D without the Player's Handbook, DM's Guide, and the Monster Manual?

I don't know, man, I think it's entirely possibly that they can. If the minis are that much more successful than the books, why wouldn't they "radically" change the game?

And is it that radical? We're RPG folks so we play with the rules out of the big books, but remember, since D&D Minis came out there has been the minis game packaged with them. There are people who play this who don't bother with the PHB and all that. I'm guessing a lot of people.

You don't think they'd change a game or game line so drastically? Take a look at what happened to Avalon Hill: ask any old skool wargamer if they like it, then ask whether or not Hasbro cares.

Bartholomew Fair

08-04-2006, 09:26 AM

Meepo

08-04-2006, 09:27 AM

Hell, I don't call it D&D unless it says Rules Cyclopedia on the cover. :cool:

You are my god :D

Thornhammer

08-04-2006, 09:39 AM

Old D&D was not well-explained and had some clunky mechanisms but was simple enough to fit those parameters if you had a decent DM. 3e fails spectacularly at both.

Insert standard "if it was so bad, how do so many people manage to run 3E straight from the book on a weekly basis" retort.

-Thornhammer

Dalton

08-04-2006, 09:56 AM

I would love to see boxed sets covering differ parts of the game (upper levels, jungle adventures, new class abilities, etc.) with all the maps, non-collectible minis, and rules needed to play. It would save me a lot of time and be an easier sell to my non-rpg boardgame friends.

Nick

Thorn Drumheller

08-04-2006, 09:56 AM

I could totally see 4th going as a more miniatures centric game. I think the proverbial writing's been on the wall for awhile so to speak.

Some might remember the proud nail article on wizards site. Restucture before christmas with firing of Charles Ryan. decreased sales of books while seeing more of minis and magic:tg. Mike Mearls redesign of monsters. The new Star Wars book supposedly, supposedly mind you, has streamlined rules to use with the minis. In my own opinion, I think the Eberron spike didn't last as long as they hoped it would. Monte Cook pursuing other interests. etc. etc.

Just like rpgs shifted the focus away from the historical wargamming group I think traditional rpgs in a sense might be left behind for a game that has rpg aspects but can be played more easily, rules wise, and less DM prep time.

Calithena

08-04-2006, 10:10 AM

Thornhammer - yeah, yeah. It's mostly experienced gamers and those they've initiated playing it.

Do I think D&D 4th is going to do this? Hell no. Come on, they're not going to change the game that radically. Can they call it D&D without the Player's Handbook, DM's Guide, and the Monster Manual?

D&D3 is such a radical change from the three original books - Men and Magic, Monsters and Treasure, Underworld and Wilderness Adventures - that something like a more freeform version of Mage Knight: Dungeons would not be significantly more different from the original than 3e was. Just different in a different direction. And probably more fun.

My measure of how good any version of D&D is is how easy little kids, high school stoners, and drunk frat boys with little or no previous experience role-playing can figure it out, and how much fun they have when they do that. All other measures are completely irrelevant to me where D&D is concerned - if it's fun for gamers, great, but to my mind that's a complete irrelevancy with respect to D&D.

Well, I guess I also care about how much real-world (NOT game-mechanics based) imagination the game allows you to exercise when playing it - that's part of the magic.

When I first read 3.0 I thought "this is brilliant and wonderful!", but I was looking at it as an experienced gamer, part of the target audience. Now I pretty much hate all games designed for experienced gamers like me - they're every one of them destructive to the hobby and the industry, both of which I actually care about.

If someone designs another game that catches on with a mass audience, great. But without that, we desperately need a D&D like the old basic set - something that people can just freakin' play without a lot of hassle. And we need it fast.

I wouldn't be surprised to see it come from WizKids or some German boardgame designer rather than the USA though.

Joe_G_Kushner

08-04-2006, 10:18 AM

It'll be interesting to see how 4th ed compares to Cadwallon from Rackham.

Zoombaba

08-04-2006, 10:30 AM

Ahnirades

08-04-2006, 10:33 AM

Yeah, except a trustworthy guy is saying he heard it from an unnamed source. Does that make it more likely than when other guys were saying similar things?

The trustworthiness of Morrus is meaningless when his source is unnamed and unverfiable. For all we know it could be some high ranking WotC bod messing with the fanbase for private amusement.

Anyway, it's not a big deal. A new edition is obviously coming sometime. It's not like that means doom and gloom or anything, but it is a factor in buying habits. The company doesn't want to announce any earlier than they have to. And if you're going to abandon 3e entirely when 4e comes out, it makes sense to buy fewer supplements during the tail end of 3e, because you'll get less use out of them. (Well, it makes sense if you require a certain number of game-hours out of your supplements, anyway.)

Agreed. The timing and content of announcements is of great importance.

But any of those things might not be true in your case, and then it doesn't need to affect your purchasing habits at all. So no, the sky isn't falling. But rumors and guesses might affect your or my specific consumption choices.

I play, but only purchase OGL stuff like C&C, True20 and M&M, so really couldn't be considered a fan. I do follow the fortunes of D&D though, at the moment I think its continuing health is of critical importance to the industry as a whole.

Joe_G_Kushner

08-04-2006, 10:38 AM

Is there a link somewhere where I can find out what Cadwallon is about? I googled Cadwallon, but all I got was product listings and "It's an RPG set in our miniatures world!" Are they doing something like what we're talking about here?

Part of the problem is that we're talking about the Rackham web site and well, it's French based but has English parts and since the French stuff always comes out first...

the miniatures for use in it are also for use in their skrimish game and their arm style game. One miniature potentially serving many purposes.

Their RPG is supposed to be more miniatures based with tiles and other aides.

Mechwarrior5

08-04-2006, 10:39 AM

Reynard

08-04-2006, 10:55 AM

This may have already been said already, but it just sounds to me like WotC has run out of ideas for new splat books. And also, how the hell are they losing money on RPGs? In all of the bookstores not exclusively geared toward gaming, WotC D&D is just about the only thing you can find. WTF?

I think it isn't so much "losing money" as "not making huge profits". Remember, a few years ago Marvel cut a bunch of profitable titles because they weren't profitable enough -- if I recall, the number was 10,000, though I don't remember if that's dollars, books sold, or what.

johnnype

08-04-2006, 10:58 AM

Is there a link somewhere where I can find out what Cadwallon is about? I googled Cadwallon, but all I got was product listings and "It's an RPG set in our miniatures world!" Are they doing something like what we're talking about here?

Your best bet is this web site (http://rackham.fr/). Click on English (unless you speak french) and click on Confrontation. On the bottom left you will see a flyer for Cadwallon. It's all we have (in english) for now, although we should know a lot more by this time next week since it's being released at GenCon.

Anfelas

08-04-2006, 11:13 AM

Here's a thought - perhaps the next re-imaging of the line will keep it backward compatible with 3.5, the big change being they drop the edition reference and just go with D&D as the brand name.

An introductory basic game, including miniatures, followed by expansions like a Player's Handbook, a Dungeon Master's Guide, and a series of Moster Manuals...

these could be the advanced books ;)

Nelzie

08-04-2006, 11:13 AM

I don't buy it.

Already in the works? Pretty certain that's true.
More miniatures-centric? Maybe.
Smaller bundles? Not bloodly likely. Thicker hardcover supplements are the bread and butter money makers of the RPG business.
D&D Not Making Money? ROFLMAO. Right.

You don't understand.

If they actually make $5 profit, after all is said and done per book sale, that might have been okay for year one sales. Year two, they had to make more money per book sales.

Large Publicly Traded Corporations are not concerned with turning the same profit on a product year after year. If it doesn't increase in per sale profits from year to year then the product is considered "Not Making Money" and will very quickly be on the way to the chopping block.

Anyway, if any of these rumors are true, then my beliefs of what would happen are coming to fruition, thus we will see the death of D&D as a fully supported tabletop RPG product.

"D&D is dead! Long live Old School Renditions (like C&C)!" may very well become the rally call...

C.W.Richeson

08-04-2006, 11:18 AM

Aren't there enough 3.5 products out there already? If I played 3.5 exclusively for the rest of my life I could never use all of the ideas, classes, prestige classes, feats, spells, and other stuff that has already been published by WOTC alone.

I see little to no downside to a new edition. Additionally, this is still an unconfirmed rumor.

Nelzie

08-04-2006, 11:20 AM

Insert standard "if it was so bad, how do so many people manage to run 3E straight from the book on a weekly basis" retort.

-Thornhammer

Of course they run it on a weekly basis, it's the only way to quickly get through that one combat session they started a month ago...

Joe_G_Kushner

08-04-2006, 11:25 AM

mcrow

08-04-2006, 11:28 AM

Weee, if it is true it settles it for me.

I'm out of D&D for good. I already don't like playing D&D V3.5 (a.k.a The D&D board game) and if they are goin to make even more use of minis, it will be even harder to playe without them.

That's it, I'm out!:mad:

Small press non-D&D here I come.

Sword Goddess

08-04-2006, 11:39 AM

I love DnD's system as it stands, and if it goes to MORE minis and frikin' CARDS (which I hate with a passion), then I'm out, and stop at 3.5, which will be easy to buy books for when mooks start selling off their copies to buy 4E ones...

Grimkrieg

08-04-2006, 11:42 AM

I think it isn't so much "losing money" as "not making huge profits". Remember, a few years ago Marvel cut a bunch of profitable titles because they weren't profitable enough -- if I recall, the number was 10,000, though I don't remember if that's dollars, books sold, or what.

That pretty much nails it on the head. Remember WoTC is owned by Hasboro and Hasboro's shareholders are after serious profit. I have heard many theorize that although D&D is doing fairly well it is not performing up to the high corporate standards of the company that owns it.

Nelzie

08-04-2006, 11:47 AM

That pretty much nails it on the head. Remember WoTC is owned by Hasboro and Hasboro's shareholders are after serious profit. I have heard many theorize that although D&D is doing fairly well it is not performing up to the high corporate standards of the company that owns it.

...and you know that's a really short sighted train of thought.

If every company did that with every product they owned, eventually all large corporations would be little more then shells, selling nothing, producing nothing, just sitting on IP that they are afraid to do anything with because it might cost money to do something with it and instead simply focus on suing anyone that might come up with something similar to what they already own some IP on.

Reynard

08-04-2006, 11:53 AM

...and you know that's a really short sighted train of thought.

If every company did that with every product they owned, eventually all large corporations would be little more then shells, selling nothing, producing nothing, just sitting on IP that they are afraid to do anything with because it might cost money to do something with it and instead simply focus on suing anyone that might come up with something similar to what they already own some IP on.

That doesn't make any sense at all. These corporation aren't producing nothing, they are producing lots of stuff and killing anything that doesn't meet whatever standard is set for "success". It happens all the time in other entertainment media. Why would games be any different?

(And as far as short sighted goes: well, duh. Most companies are interested in Profits Now because that's what shareholders want and no CEO is going to keep his job for more than a few years anyway, so he might as well get the biggest bonus possible. This is a product of our addiction to Instant Gratification in the modern era -- but I guess that's a subject for Tangency.)

The Last Conformist

08-04-2006, 11:57 AM

If someone designs another game that catches on with a mass audience, great. But without that, we desperately need a D&D like the old basic set - something that people can just freakin' play without a lot of hassle. And we need it fast.
Making D&D more of a miniatures wargame sounds like the entirely wrong way to achieve that.

Nelzie

08-04-2006, 12:02 PM

That doesn't make any sense at all. These corporation aren't producing nothing, they are producing lots of stuff and killing anything that doesn't meet whatever standard is set for "success". It happens all the time in other entertainment media. Why would games be any different?

(And as far as short sighted goes: well, duh. Most companies are interested in Profits Now because that's what shareholders want and no CEO is going to keep his job for more than a few years anyway, so he might as well get the biggest bonus possible. This is a product of our addiction to Instant Gratification in the modern era -- but I guess that's a subject for Tangency.)

Of course it doesn't make much sense at all.

However, that's how some businesses that own several other businesses have begun to operate. Kill anything that isn't making x% profit, even if it is making more then y% of profit, because we really need to make only x% or more of profit. Damn the consequences!

The logical conclusion is companies like the Canopy Group, which procudes nothing, but owns many other corporations in a diverse segment of the technology field. It holds expertise in nothing beyond telling those corporations to increase profits, from what I understand. (Yes, this probably belongs in Tangency.)

Calithena

08-04-2006, 12:03 PM

I'm not advocating the miniatures wargame approach, Last Conformist, just saying it wouldn't be any more destructive to the game, or more different from old D&D, than the current 3.0/3.5 is.

The reasoning about Hasbro is good. There's no way to make a successful RPG even at the scale of D&D except on the 'slow, regular profit' model, I don't think. So there's no way for a large publicly traded company to do this long term.

Which means D&D will no longer be the name of any RPG within 10 years - they won't want to license it out for reasons of brand dilution and won't want to pay their staff to design their own profitless game.

My bet is that it becomes the name of a series of MMORPGs over the long term.

Liberator

08-04-2006, 12:09 PM

If it goes more minis centric....I'm done.

I can 'barely' handle 3.5 right now.

A lot of folks will say 'I'm done' I know. But, I have my first kid on the way and buying into a whole pile of new gaming merchandise isn't in the works.

Reverend Keith

08-04-2006, 12:11 PM

D&D Not Making Money? ROFLMAO. Right.
I agree that D&D is most likely making money, but turning a profit isn't enough. Successful businesses focus on whatever has the highest return for their investment.

For instance, Changeling: the Dreaming made a profit, but White Wolf dumped it because it didn't make as much of a profit as Vampire, Werewolf and Mage books created.

I wouldn't be surprised that WotC/Hasbro could decide to focus their energy on what makes them the most money (Magic and Minis) and then to shelve the rest (like RPGs) for IP mining.

Reverend Keith

08-04-2006, 12:14 PM

Reynard

08-04-2006, 12:29 PM

My biggest beef with Hasbro, which extends to any possible 4e, is that it has totally wasted the potential of the D&D brand (which I contend is far more valuable than D&D the rpg). I mean, it is a giant freaking toy company. Where's the D&D action figure? Comics? Animated series? Lunch boxes? Pretty much any field that can be described with the phrase 'fantasy adventure' somewhere in the title or product description should be dominated by the D&D brand.

We need the following:

1) Drizzt -- whatever your feelings about the character -- to show in Soul Caliber Whatever.

2) An Eberron animated series and associated action figures.

3) High end D&D Iconic Beasties figs by McFarlnae Toys.

4) An out-of-the-box D&D board/party game.

5) A *good* D&D comic or three.

6) A squad based D&D FPS (First Person Slasher) for real party based dungeon crawling.

7) A "Who Wants to be a Hero" reality show - boffing and all -- hosted by Gygax.

Okay, maybe not that last one, but you get my point.

Reverend Keith

08-04-2006, 12:31 PM

If it goes more minis centric....I'm done.
Gaming with minis for combat isn't an automatic disqualification for any game I pick up, although ease of learning (and teaching) the rules, and they impact the flow of the game session is of key importance to me.

Have I mentioned that I hate AoO's?

Joe_G_Kushner

08-04-2006, 12:34 PM

Liberator

08-04-2006, 12:36 PM

Gaming with minis for combat isn't an automatic disqualification for any game I pick up, although ease of learning (and teaching) the rules, and they impact the flow of the game session is of key importance to me.

Have I mentioned that I hate AoO's?

It didn't use to be for me, but lately it is. Too much to haul around from session to session.

I'm with you on ease of learning and teaching being primary.

For the last two gaming sessions of our 3.5 game, we've been running through one combat session. One. 6 hours basicly. We never had that problem with 2e or 1e or CnC or WFRP.

And yet I digress.

Cost will be a factor for me as well as my group really has no interest in learning any more systems.

Zap Branigan

08-04-2006, 12:38 PM

Just saw this thread (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=170472) on EnWorld.

Now commence with your rabid speculation.I'm not even going to bother reading the whole thread...any chance of me looking at 4e is now nil.

Vazkor Javhovor

08-04-2006, 12:52 PM

Is there a link somewhere where I can find out what Cadwallon is about? I googled Cadwallon, but all I got was product listings and "It's an RPG set in our miniatures world!" Are they doing something like what we're talking about here?

If you can stand Google Translate, there's this (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.roliste.com%2Fjeu.jsp%3Fid%3D25 11%26ft%3D1&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8).

Vazkor

Reynard

08-04-2006, 12:55 PM

Or are you talking about 'original' content?

That. Specifically, a few Eberron comics -- one fantasy noir, one pulp exploration, one magitech war, etc... -- would be my preference. And a massive, fully painted Planescape graphic novel.

Calithena

08-04-2006, 12:55 PM

As regards the system, each character is defined by six attitudes: aggressiveness, the address, elegance, opportunism, subtlety and the discipline.

This sounds like one of those Iron Game Chef ingredients lists!

Consonant Dude

08-04-2006, 12:59 PM

any chance of me looking at 4e is now nil.

Because of vague, skim speculation based on what could reportedly be the embryonic 4th edition design process according to anonymous sources?

Isn't that overreacting a bit?

Joe_G_Kushner

08-04-2006, 12:59 PM

That. Specifically, a few Eberron comics -- one fantasy noir, one pulp exploration, one magitech war, etc... -- would be my preference. And a massive, fully painted Planescape graphic novel.

I could be mistaken but I believe they have a series written by Keith coming out fore Eberron.

mcrow

08-04-2006, 01:02 PM

Because of vague, skim speculation based on what could reportedly be the embryonic 4th edition design process according to anonymous sources?

Isn't that overreacting a bit?

The guy leaking this stuff has been very reliable in the past, so I don't doubt what he says @ all.

Consonant Dude

08-04-2006, 01:10 PM

The guy leaking this stuff has been very reliable in the past, so I don't doubt what he says @ all.

This isn't just about the reliability of the source. This is about the stage we're at.

It could come from WotC itself, it would still be very little info to go about. The report doesn't say how it will be done. It could be a quicker D&D, slower, better, crappier. Says very little if anything about the presentation, marketing, flavor or the rules.

I am personally optimistic of this info tidbit and I completely respect anyone who is pessimistic based on this report. But just as I think it would be ridiculously early for me to declare I will buy this sight unseen the minute it is out, I think the opposite is true.

The fact is, nobody can make an informed decision of 4e based on 3 small lines of a second-hand report.

Zap Branigan

08-04-2006, 01:13 PM

Because of vague, skim speculation based on what could reportedly be the embryonic 4th edition design process according to anonymous sources?

Isn't that overreacting a bit?Sure is..you all know I'll look at it (god knows all I have to hear is 'rumour to make my eyes go :rolleyes: )...it was just an excuse to not read a very long thread...:D

grubman

08-04-2006, 03:47 PM

Wow! This is a silly thread full of sky is falling and jumping to conclusions.

Be sensible, and mark my word (grubman predictions are always right!) D&D is not going to be radically changed. The main concern of a new edition will be to make it A) more friendly to the newbie B) keep the scores of existing players happy, and C) making a profit while not offering the same old thing.

My prediction is that D&D 4.0 will be produced as a bunch of smaller modules that will build on each other.

The first product will be D&D COMBATS. This is basically a mini game similar to the CMG that is already out.

The Second Product will be the BASIC RULEBOOK a much more streamlined, self contained, thin, and easier to manage version of the same game you are now playing. This will be the stand alone core rulebook for the game.

The Third product will be ADVANCED RULEBOOK a supplement to the basic book adding more options, ect. Basically bringing the game up to the level of complexity it is at right now.

After this we will see splatbooks, monster manuals, settings, and adventures just like now either aligned for Combats or Basic or Advanced D&D.

Relax people! I has spoken! :p

P.S. And I’m pretty sick of people saying “D&D is like a board game” blah blah…if it is for you, you are playing it wrong. Enjoy the tactics of a battle map and minis if you like them…drop it if you don’t…or use it sometimes and other times don’t. It only comes into play during combat anyway. There is a whole lot of role-playing (very unlike any board game I know of) in-between those combats.

Zap Branigan

08-04-2006, 03:54 PM

Grubman quit yelling your giving me a headache...

Blizzardborn

08-04-2006, 04:08 PM

Firstly, I doubt Hasbro much cares what WOTC is doing. They probably make more money on GIJoe than all of WOTC's stuff combined. So they just let 'em do their thing. And they did work out a deal for more 'mainstream' D&D. We got the D&D movie.

As I've noted elsewhere, I stopped with 3E. I'm not going nuts to get 3.5, and I probably won't even look at 4E. The overall behavior of the game market is a little too close to drug addicts' behavior for my comfort level. And 3E works just fine, once you drop the PrCs and AoOs, and a couple other things.

And jellybeans work fine for minis. You can eat the orcs after you kill them.;)

BB

DeadlyUematsu

08-04-2006, 04:16 PM

If they shoot for fast setup, low learning curve, ease of play, and new players, I would buy 4E instantly. I think every RPG should strive for this.

Piestrio

08-04-2006, 04:16 PM

Wow! This is a silly thread full of sky is falling and jumping to conclusions.

I'm just going to assume what Grubman says is gospel and I'll be a happy man. :)

Piestrio

grubman

08-04-2006, 04:17 PM

Grubman quit yelling your giving me a headache...

That was my God voice :)

Actually I'm fairly confident that is what we are going to see for 4.0*. You still have 3 "core" books (one released as a boxed set with starting minis and small battle map). Then you have supplements released at different levels. This way you cater to all the various target groups. Mini people, minimalist people, and rules lawyers...and everything inbetween.

The OGL would probably work even better with this system as the Basic Level would be more flexable that 3.5 currently is.

* or something similar

Piestrio

08-04-2006, 04:18 PM

You can eat the orcs after you kill them.;)

BB

Best game mechanic in the world that one, esp if you starve your players beforehand ;) ;)

Piestrio

Brantai'sPuppet

08-04-2006, 04:20 PM

And they did work out a deal for more 'mainstream' D&D. We got the D&D movie.
We got boned in that deal.

Ozymandias

08-04-2006, 04:23 PM

Yeah, this rumor is totally legit. Just like the last half-dozen rumors from super-secret sources that the next edition of D&D will be coming out any day now. Yawn.

Liberator

08-04-2006, 04:28 PM

You know what would be funny?

If they sold the license to Kenzer and Co. and the Kenzer guys just made Hackmaster the 4.0 DnD.

Oh the wailing and gnashing of teeth there would be.

:D

Calithena

08-04-2006, 04:37 PM

Hi Grubman,

I quit playing 3e because I feel that if you're not following every rule in the core books to the letter, you're playing it wrong, and I didn't enjoy playing it right. Whereas with AD&D obeying all the rules was a fucking joke, almost no-one did that, and those who did were folks I didn't want to game with anyway.

Why I can't have that attitude to 3e has to do with it being a better designed game, and with it making a clean break with the 1974 roots.

So anyway, I respect your viewpoint, but I'd never play 3e without AoOs, strict adjudication of every social situation by skill rolls, absolutely precise interpretations of every magic item and spell, and all the rest. Since I hate that kind of RPG, that means I'll never play 3e again. I had great fun with the game though, but only because I wasn't playing it...I was playing another RPG that only exists in my head.

magustrate

08-04-2006, 04:48 PM

I don't know when D&D 4th is coming out and I don't really care. Our gaming group doesn't have the money to buy a whole new edition and we have plenty of stories to tell with 3.x.

I am very curious to see what WotC does. I love new games and just seeing the changes of the new edition will be fun and interesting. I really hope it's something like Grubman's plan.

As a nice ray of sunshine I'm hoping to use the release of 4.0 to change my group over to another system :)

Zoombaba

08-04-2006, 04:50 PM

Wow! This is a silly thread full of sky is falling and jumping to conclusions.

Would it be a D&D 4th edition thread if didn't have those things? I, personally, wouldn't be even half as entertained. I say, bring on the doomsayers!

As for your ideas .... um, I still think there's gonna be a Player's Handbook, DM's Guide and a Monster Manual. I just have a hard time imagining any other form of D&D. That's not saying they won't strive for a quick start game, or a Basic level game. I just think that those are sacred cows.

Calithena

08-04-2006, 05:02 PM

Some WotC guys have confirmed the part of Eric Noah's post that the next version will be even more miniatures-centered. Get ready for Dungeonclix!

Oz Chandler

08-04-2006, 05:07 PM

Wow, and we JUST got into D&D 3.0 again after 5 years away! 4th edition would have to be something close to perfection for us to invest in it. Something close to what Grubman is predicting would cause us to look it over at least.

mattormeg

08-04-2006, 05:09 PM

In all of the bookstores not exclusively geared toward gaming, WotC D&D is just about the only thing you can find. WTF?

This is so similar to what happened with 2nd edition. I remember all of the other games getting crushed under an avalanche of AD&D Player's Options books and what-have-you.

Honestly, WOTC broke my heart when they went from 3.0 to 3.5. I can never trust those guys again. I mean if the rules needed to be corrected that much, then they should have done a little bit more playtesting before they came out with 3.0.

They're losing money because the market is becoming absolutely saturated. When you're coming out with what seems like a splatbook a month, it's not hard to guess that some people may be getting tired of trying to keep up.

Zap Branigan

08-04-2006, 05:13 PM

That was my God voice :)Well that was my peon voice praying to his god to tone it down a bit...:D

Actually I'm fairly confident that is what we are going to see for 4.0*. You still have 3 "core" books (one released as a boxed set with starting minis and small battle map). Then you have supplements released at different levels. This way you cater to all the various target groups. Mini people, minimalist people, and rules lawyers...and everything inbetween.If this be true then I might actually join a D&D group.

NPC Brown Cow

08-04-2006, 05:39 PM

... a game that has rpg aspects but can be played more easily, rules wise, and less DM prep time.

This is what I've been looking for lately.

Sort of a return to my Battletech GMing days. Where my prep was writing a paragraph or less on the scenario, picking a map, listing the enemy forces and just letting it run.

komradebob

08-04-2006, 05:49 PM

Some WotC guys have confirmed the part of Eric Noah's post that the next version will be even more miniatures-centered. Get ready for Dungeonclix!

Woo-Hoo! I'd buy that!

Nick The Lemming

08-04-2006, 06:35 PM

The CCG aspect that's been mentioned usually comes up against people saying there's no way that they'd have feats etc in CCG format, but I can see it. They could have starter packs for a fighter with the common feats etc that a beginning fighter would take, and "fighter boosters" for extra feats. People on ENworld, from what I can see, are saying no-one would buy that, but considering a) people buy whole boxes of magic cards to get the rares they want and b) many shops and online sellers open up boosters and decks and sell individual cards, I can see it selling.

I can also see adventures being a slim module and a load of plastic monsters too, like the old advanced Heroquest model.

Personally, there'd have to be some element that completely removes it from current D&D for me to buy it - I dropped out when it was still 1st ed AD&D, and haven't gone back since. If it's just the same thing but with different means of selling it, then I still wouldn't be interested.

Meepo

08-04-2006, 07:04 PM

Woo-Hoo! I'd buy that!

Same here! I know it isn't "true D&D" anymore, but it sounds like fun all the same!

Blizzardborn

08-04-2006, 08:00 PM

Best game mechanic in the world that one, esp if you starve your players beforehand ;) ;)

Piestrio

It could be a trifle creepy if we were using gummi bears that night---lots of called decaps. Also lead to some very competitive body counting. Peanuts and sunflower seeds work as well, the latter being preferred for kobolds.:D

BB

drek

08-04-2006, 10:45 PM

This is what's currently in my imagination:

A player would buy, for example, the Dwarven Paladin pack, and recieve three minis (representing the character at low, mid, and high level), plus an armor card, an expensive Holy Avenger sword card, and cards representing the racial and class abilities of a Dwarven Paladin.

Experience points (renamed, probably) will be used to purchase the right to use a card, augmenting baseline abilities of each miniature. XP costs will be adjusted depending upon the "color" the ability and the miniature class. So, a Divine Spell card would be less expensive to add to a cleric mini. A Martial Feat would be less expensive to add to a fighter mini.

So you'd see players buying up booster packs of Skill/Spell/Feat cards, hoping to score certain ability cards. Then they'd go on adventures (naming a player DM or using DM-less rules), or just duel with each other in order to earn the XP required to use the cards they've purchased.

Also, there'd be game types wherein players recieved a certain amount of XP in which to build up a character or set of characters.

A DM (or solo player) would buy an adventure pack, containing multiple minis for monsters, maps, battle mats, trick/traps cards, and treasure item cards. In addition, there'd be DM boosters containing all of the above, but not keyed to a specific adventure, rather to a specific setting (such as an Abyssal set or a Waterdeep set).

JongWK

08-05-2006, 02:59 PM

Some WotC guys have confirmed the part of Eric Noah's post that the next version will be even more miniatures-centered. Get ready for Dungeonclix!

Source?

JongWK

08-05-2006, 03:03 PM

Eric Noah's latest news: (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2988951&postcount=461)

Well here's some more...

I just heard from a high-up at WotC. He says the info is so wrong that he suspects that my source is out to torpedo "my reputation" by giving me something this far off the mark.

I trust my source's intentions, though as I've said earlier my source could be misunderstanding something, or I could have misconstrued something.

Hopefully if the WotC person doesn't mind outing himself he could post here to verify and share what info he is allowed to share.

In any case, I responded to him as I respond to all of you: I'm out of the "D&D scoop business" and so this is the last you'll hear from me on anything 4E related.

Ozymandias

08-05-2006, 03:25 PM

Eric Noah's latest news: (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2988951&postcount=461)
The rumor was full of shit? NO WAY! :eek: :rolleyes:

Havoc

08-05-2006, 03:36 PM

To bad if it isn't true. I have never had any interest in D&D before but an even more miniatures centric game would push it far enough from a standard RPG to make it seems like a good idea.

(I also find it weird if they do a minis tie in with the Star Wars RPG but not with D&D 4.0 )

grubman

08-05-2006, 03:37 PM

The rumor was full of shit? NO WAY! :eek: :rolleyes:

Crap! They tricked me into giving up the REAL master plan!...forget everything I told you!

zanshin

02-08-2008, 07:10 AM

Thread necro ftw... possibly.

I see that 4e is now truly shaping up to happen this year. I quite like what i have read of the concepts so far - more flexibility with class customisation, choices to be made each level, a unified approach to targetting - spells as well as sword swings.

I also like the concept of powers being useable at will/per encounter/per day , so a mage could always do a magic missile for example, its just it will now need to hit.

Enworld have a lot of info about all this.

Its 7 years since 3e, which is about the same gap as 1e to 2e. Seems fair enough to me.

Matrix Sorcica

02-08-2008, 11:45 AM

I'm torn between just ignoring this vile and utterly unneeded thread necromancy, and asking what the point of the necromancy was?

Curiousity got the better of me.

Bloodwolf

02-08-2008, 12:45 PM

I got nothing.

Really.

I've got to second the WTF?

devlin1

02-08-2008, 12:56 PM

Wait a minute....

There's a 4th Edition?!

DocTheWeasel

02-08-2008, 07:08 PM

This thread is proof that 4th Ed will allow characters to self-rez with action points.

...discuss

grubman

02-08-2008, 07:16 PM

Be sensible, and mark my word (grubman predictions are always right!) D&D is not going to be radically changed. The main concern of a new edition will be to make it A) more friendly to the newbie B) keep the scores of existing players happy, and C) making a profit while not offering the same old thing.

My prediction is that D&D 4.0 will be produced as a bunch of smaller modules that will build on each other.

The first product will be D&D COMBATS. This is basically a mini game similar to the CMG that is already out.

The Second Product will be the BASIC RULEBOOK a much more streamlined, self contained, thin, and easier to manage version of the same game you are now playing. This will be the stand alone core rulebook for the game.

The Third product will be ADVANCED RULEBOOK a supplement to the basic book adding more options, ect. Basically bringing the game up to the level of complexity it is at right now.

After this we will see splatbooks, monster manuals, settings, and adventures just like now either aligned for Combats or Basic or Advanced D&D.

Relax people! I has spoken! :p

Actually I'm fairly confident that is what we are going to see for 4.0*. You still have 3 "core" books (one released as a boxed set with starting minis and small battle map). Then you have supplements released at different levels. This way you cater to all the various target groups. Mini people, minimalist people, and rules lawyers...and everything inbetween.

The OGL would probably work even better with this system as the Basic Level would be more flexable that 3.5 currently is.

* or something similar

heh heh heh

Guess I was wrong! dead wrong.

In retrospect, I still think my idea was better! :)

devlin1

02-08-2008, 07:42 PM

heh heh heh

Guess I was wrong! dead wrong.

In retrospect, I still think my idea was better! :)
Well, you were partially right. The intro module will have rules for 1st-3rd level, a la the Basic Boxed Set. Consider that a basic rulebook. But there are only two tiers, really: H1 and Everything Else.

Evan Waters

02-08-2008, 09:41 PM

Bit of a scare, that was, seeing this without realizing it was old information.

(So yes on the new edition and all, but not on the "WotC getting out of the RPG game" business. Though that seems to have instead transferred over to GW, so it's a wash.)

Seroster

02-08-2008, 11:15 PM

Thread necro ftw... possibly.

Since you aren't commenting on anything in the thread you necro'd, I don't think there was any point in necro'ing it at all.

And it was a bit alarming and then annoying once I realized what the dates of the posts and rumours were.

REZcat

02-08-2008, 11:26 PM

Just looking at the subject title, I thought it was a thread for guessing what the next thread for 4th edition would be about. :p

zanshin

02-15-2008, 04:38 AM

Aah well, a mea culpa. i found this thread while googling 4e d&d . I dont come to rpg net that often , and this thread was originaly in the rpg open section, where i could (unsurprisingly) find no other details about 4e d&d. So i necroed this thread.

I now realise there is a whole separate section for d20 stuff, to which this thread has now been transferred.

So yes , by all means ignore this thread, and hurl whatever other brickbats are appropriate for my hamfisted intervention.

Cheers! :)