System X

[Patrick Chipman]

And in the grand tradition started by HJ, I'll shamelessly use this opportunity to hit people up for commentary on System X. The specification, which is more a way to write games than a game itself, is located at http://mnemosyne.csl.psyc.memphis.edu/home/chipmanp/systemx/sysxspec.htm.

Hopefully these two posts will generate some discussion here. ;)

[Storn]

I got to task resolution and stopped. I'm not one for charts, although I think the old DC Heroes chart was truly elegant. But the system x chart is big and just didn't thrill me. Sorry. Just an emotional, non logical reaction, but it is the way I feel.

[threegee]

So... System X is meant to be a meta-system, much like d20, right? To be honest, reading through the spec is much like reading U.S. Code.

Let's see if I have it right - you have a stat from 1-20 and a bunch of skills from 1-10. To resolve a task, you add the appropriate skill to the appropriate stat, roll a d20, and consult the big chart. The characters have an unspecified, ablative hit point pool that acts as a cap to stat+skill on a one to two ratio. Armor involves lots of math. I suspect that it probably keeps characters from dying. I also suspect that there are weapons of various sorts, but I must have missed that section.

Okay, so am I close? Everything seems very old skool to me, but I would have to see an actual system based on the spec to really form a proper opinion.

[Patrick Chipman]

Thanks for taking a look at it, threegee. Let me try to address your points so that I can determine whether what I wrote matches what you read -- so I can rework some sections if it doesn't. (Readers, as unclarity detectors, do not make Type I errors. Those are words to live by. ;) ) It's also worth noting that I normally preface requests for people to read the Specification with a "by the way, be sure you're in a mood to read specification-ese first," as it's written more for unambiguity than enjoyment. Don't worry -- I'm working on the Manual now, which is designed to be read for enjoyment, and builds a system as it goes through the explanation of the Specification. Usually, I direct people to the Introduction if the Specification is too painful (and unless you're a lawyer or a programmer, it probably is ;) ).

Anyway, the system is, as you say, 1d20 and a Skill Value (from a 1-10 Skill and a 1-20 Attribute in compliant games) crossreferenced on a chart to produce a success margin. The chart is used for nothing else -- certainly not determining what to roll next, and certainly not for determining what chart to consult next. ;) It's not a typical RPG chart, in that sense.

The "hit point pool" (Wounds) is not specified in the specification because it's up to the game designer. A superheroes game wouldn't, obviously, have realistic combat. ;) However, 1x Endurance is the norm for a realistic game. Since weapons produce damage by modifying the success margin of the attack (section 3.2, IIRC), this means that the average person can take one to three shots before taking an incapacitating, eventually lethal wound. The wound penalty, which is based on 1x Endurance Wounds, very sharply curbs the abilities of characters once they're hit, unless they try to tax their reserves to ignore it. The evasion system ensures that combat doesn't get ludicrously lethal by turning a practically guaranteed hit into an opposed roll, in which success is predicated on skill.

I'm not sure how Armor came across as mathy -- I suppose those "absolute value" bits probably didn't help. I'll look that over and see if I can make it more clear. In essence, though, Armor has two stats. One is rolled like a Skill Value to get a result, which is then subtracted from the damage. The other fixed value is then subtracted from the damage. There aren't square roots, multiplication, or advanced calculus in there, I swear. ;)

In any event, the demo System X compliant game that gets built in the Manual is almost done, and I'll be linking to it from the site very soon.

[Mithras]

Patrick, I've looked at System X and echo the comments of others here. You step too lightly, the detail with which you delineate and specify tends to hold things up and drain away any colour. Could you not hold back on the legalese, putting this in some obscure section.

Its a gut reaction.

[threegee]

Thanks for the reply. I knew you'd say it in English, if I annoyed you properly. :p

I've actually read the spec before today, but space needed filling, so I started typing. The wording is a little dense, though, and certain ideas are spread out among different sections.

Baseline HP does help, by the way. Check me on this, but if a character has an average Endurance of 10, but could potentially have a stat+skill of 30, wouldn't their poor (average) health inherently limit their abilities, since the best they could ever manage on a 'Skill Value' is 20?

Simple charts aren't necessarily bad, as demonstrated by Marvel Super Heroes, where the chart was sort of fun, and by DC Superheroes, where you got used to it fairly quickly, but is there any quick formula to determine the degree of success without using the chart?

I think I understand the armor rules, it just seems like combat is designed to take a long time. First, both players make checks to hit/not get hit; their successes are compared, and if the result is positive, this difference is multiplied by the weapon's margin modifier, the resulting product then being added to the weapon's damage value. Then, the armor makes its check using its first value; the resulting success is multiplied by its third value, and this product is added (assuming the value is positive) to the armor's second value, and the whole thing is then subtracted from damage.

I'll be a good boy and wait for the Manual to come out to see what baseline weapons and armor actually look like, compared to baseline characters.

[Patrick Chipman]

Excuse me if this doesn't come out entirely coherently, but the combination of water, metal, and an exploding tire just annihilated my car. Luckily, I'm none the worse for wear (except in terms of minor cuts and pulled muscles). ;)

Admittedly, the writing of the Specification doth suck. It's on my list of things to fix, and the Manual is one way to fix it. ;) I'd rather the core aspects of System X were explained without ambiguity, rather than being explained with ambiguity but nicely. It's not my intention for the Specification to be the major reference; the Manual should be the most common reference, with the Specification only being consulted when the Manual is unclear.

Now, onto specific comments...

Check me on this, but if a character has an average Endurance of 10, but could potentially have a stat+skill of 30, wouldn't their poor (average) health inherently limit their abilities, since the best they could ever manage on a 'Skill Value' is 20?

The wound penalty doesn't take effect until the character takes damage.

Simple charts aren't necessarily bad, as demonstrated by Marvel Super Heroes, where the chart was sort of fun, and by DC Superheroes, where you got used to it fairly quickly, but is there any quick formula to determine the degree of success without using the chart?

Hey, I think my chart's simple. ;) I wish there were an easy formula to do the calculation, but the problem is that the movement of success -- and possible success values -- is not entirely linear. So, I've not yet found an easy functional way to replace the roll chart. The underlying model is quite complex. ;)

think I understand the armor rules, it just seems like combat is designed to take a long time.

The playtesters haven't noticed any problems in time, but I will concede that rate of play is dependent upon how fast you can do cross-references. Generally speaking, though, most weapons don't use multipliers -- their damage is rated from +0 to +7 or so, which when added to a success margin, usually deals sufficient damage to clobber most targets. Larger weapons (and vehicular armor) are where the margin multipliers come into play.

Thanks again for the comments, all. I'm taking them into consideration (and pondering just hiding the specification away in some tiny link, so that people use the much better written Manual instead ;) ).

[threegee]

The spec is fine, except the parts where one idea is split into different sections. It's just a little hard to read without the Manual to provide perspective and a baseline reference point.

In my experience, most people are really, really awful when it comes to math. Addition of simple numbers is about all they can manage. But, if playtesters say they are fine, that pretty much covers it. Assuming someone other than yourself was running the various games. I know I have that problem, being actually capable of performing arithmetic in my head.

What I did find potentially confusing is the distinction between Skills and Skill Values. Without having read the spec, one would assume the skill value is the scalar value from 1-10 written next to the skill, rather than the stat+skill combination.