[Necro][D&D Prestiege] Mystic Theurge: Broken or misunderstood?

[Agent Oracle]

OK, last one for the day.
http://webpages.charter.net/dmott/motivatormystic.jpg

Mystic Theurge is a broken prestige class now?

Alot of people still think it is, but lets start a new thread if we want to discuss that. ;)

Okay, we had requests for it, here's the question, is the Mystic Theurge broken?

For those of you unfamiliar with this prestige class (found in the Dungeon Master Guide, page 192) the mystic theurge represents a fusion of divine magic and arcane magic. Either a studied Cleric, or a faithful wizard.

It is a 10 level prestige class with minimum base attack bonus progression, poor fortitude save, poor reflex save, and a phenomenal will save. It gains no special abilities, but advances both arcane spellcasting level AND divine spellcasting level at the same time.

It has bad hit dice (d4, though that shouldn't worry wizards) relatively easily attainable prerequisites (two skills at 6 points each, doable by 5th level, and the ability to cast 2nd level divine and 2nd level arcane spells) all of which can be accomplished by sixth level.

A character taking mystic theurge ONLY gains the benefits of the spell casting abilities of from the divine and arcane class from which he originated. He does not gain any additional class benefits (such as improvement to familiar abilities, better undead turning, bonus feats, etc.)

---

Your arguments?

[Will]

Utter BS. It's not broken.

You loose substantial spellcasting ability in both divine and arcane sides. In fact, I've known many players that took a hard look at it, then gave it a pass.

Where it's 'powerful' is that it gives you LOTS of spells per day. If this is important in your campaign, the mystic theurge is a fair option.

The limiting factor in encounters is that you can still only cast one spell per round, and you aren't casting the most powerful spell level or two. That's a huge drawback.

[Pseudo Nymh]

The Munchkin in my group passed it up, so I can say with 100% certainty that no, it is not actually broken. :p

Seriously, though, in my opinion it is pretty balanced. It is very potent at later levels (high level casters should be), but it progresses rather slowly. You're going to be three levels behind a caster of just one class; that's an entire spell level.

Will has pointed out the most important detail; you're still only casting one spell a round, no matter how many spells you have access too. Also, you must bear in mind all limits of both spellcasting classes, so a cleric/wizard theurge still suffers arcane spell failure if wearing armor.

[C.W.Richeson]

It's not broken. This is a really old question that has been beaten to death over the years. I've played and run 3.0 and 3.5 almost continually since late 2000 when it was released. I've played a Mystic Theurge twice and can guarantee that, if anything, it is on the middling to weaker side of prestige classes. It's especially nasty in a campaign that starts out at level one because at a certain point your character is a level 3 wizard / 3 cleric (typically) and can do very little to support the other level 6 characters. Effectively you're a healing and buffing character that has little to no role in combat.

Much later on, say early to mid teens, the class starts to balance out. Even then you still miss out on the powerful prestige class abilities and higher level spells that a dedicated arcane or divine caster would receive. You're sacrificing a lot of raw power for versatility and more spells per day. Some folk will enjoy that, others will quickly discover the class is too slow and support oriented for them.

[Levi]

If your DM keeps tossing lots of "weardown" fights at a group, rather than "serious threats", the class is, indeed, unusually strong.

With a DM that leans more toward the serious threats, with less weardown, it's unusually weak.

With a DM in the middle, it's just dandy.

[Agent Oracle]

Thank you Wil, Nymh, and everyone else. I didn't want to come out as biased at the very beginning, so I attempted to simply explain the class at it's most basic. I've been running a Mystic Theurge for three levels now, and in spite of it's wide variety of spells, it's pretty much perfectly balanced. Additionally, it only achieves 9th level spells for only one class (since you can't re-take prestige classes once you finish them) at 20th level.

Even with "Quicken" and a wide selection of swift spells, the Mystic theurge is on par with any other class. Much like dislike of the warlock, this is an unfounded fear.

[Understandor]

Speaking as a powergamer.....

It's not broken.
It's not even very optimal.
Although it is possible to do some fun stuff with it really is'nt the path to unlimited power.

[Mitsugi]

Not broken. Being able to keep casting spells long after everyone else has shot their wad is only occasionally useful. I mean, at that point, what, you're going to go off adventuring all by yourself? Losing out on 9th (and probably 8th) level spells is a significant drawback, too.

Plus, until you really get into the class, you're a 3rd level mage / 3rd level cleric. Yeah. Stupendously powerful. You're slinging a couple of scorching rays a day while your buddy the 6th level wizard can pop off four fireballs and the 6th level cleric is dropping Cure Serious Wound healbombs all over the place.

[Will]

This is one of my overall complaints with D&D; I do not like the basic X per day mechanic, because it REALLY skews things depending on slight changes of GM style.

Not to derail...

[C.W.Richeson]

Not necessarily, since it's a 10 level prestige class it caps out at 16 assuming you went in as Clr 3 and Wiz 3 (so 13 CL in each or lvl 7 spells). To cap out both you then have to leap to another prestige class with dual progression, though there are several out there at this point that have it.

Thank you Wil, Nymh. I didn't want to come out as biased at the very beginning, so I attempted to simply explain the class at it's most basic. I've been running a Mystic Theurge for three levels now, and in spite of it's wide variety of spells, it's pretty much perfectly balanced. Additionally, it only achieves 9th level spells at 20th level.

[riprock]

This is one of my overall complaints with D&D; I do not like the basic X per day mechanic, because it REALLY skews things depending on slight changes of GM style.


That was well put. I have often had the same thought in less articulate forms.

[Will]

Man, I'm on a roll.

Anyone want to hire an apparently quite lucid freelancer?

[Agent Oracle]

Not necessarily, since it's a 10 level prestige class it caps out at 16 assuming you went in as Clr 3 and Wiz 3 (so 13 CL in each or lvl 7 spells). To cap out both you then have to leap to another prestige class with dual progression, though there are several out there at this point that have it.

Yes, but every one that I'm aware of has some prerequisite which you cannot acquire through playing Mystic Theurge. For instance, the Arcane Heirophant needs Wild Shape (Druid 4).

I actually stated it out, (including feat selections and whatnot) and the best results you can get is by either finishing up as a cleric, or going as an Archmage.

[Kaiu Keiichi]

Another reason why the MT is gimped, IMO -

Those automatic feats that Wizards normally get make a big difference. Also, Domain spells are indexed to Cleric level, and they don't progress unless you get a class feature that specifically says they do. On the Cleric side, neither level based abilities from Domains nor domain spell casting progress (so, hope your deity gives a static bonus, like +1 caster level to Good spells!) nor does Turn Undead. Also, while you can wear heavy armor, you may as well not bother since it will muck up Arcane spellcasting. More or less the same happens to Druids who go MT. Also, Familiar progression stops dead in it's tracks.

CB

[Levi]

Another reason why the MT is gimped, IMO

I've seen a Favored Soul / Sorcerer Theurge. They had more spells than you could easily count - but none of those were all that stunning.

Basically, they were all about the "utility" stuff, with a sideline in buffing the crap out of anything that walked.

It was a very cool niche character.

[Phizel]

Also, Domain spells are indexed to Cleric level, and they don't progress unless you get a class feature that specifically says

This isn't the way I read it, but whether you are right or wrong the prestige class is only useful as a back up character if you take it to 10th level of the class.

However if you combine Geomancer with Mystic theurge you get a more powerful character, but still not too game breaking. Then again your perspective is skewed when every player in your group is a fanatical power gamer.

[Kurotowa]

This is one of my overall complaints with D&D; I do not like the basic X per day mechanic, because it REALLY skews things depending on slight changes of GM style.

Not to derail...

Since the main topic is so well settled, let's derail.

I'm also really tired of it because it encourages you to put off doing cool things now because you might need to do cool things later. Which is why I've been really pleased by a lot of the new class books that've come out. Warlock started the trend, now there's Dragon Shamans and Binders and the incarnum classes and whatever the collective name for the new Tome of Battle classes is. Which I think is a great thing. When you're not always trying to save up for the boss fight at the end, it's a lot easier to let your PC do what they can do and have fun.

[Beckett]

A mystic theurge almost caused a TPK in my game.

More accurately, an almost-mystic theurge almost caused a TPK in my game.

The one arcane caster in the group wanted to become a mystic theurge. At the time of this encounter, it was a sixth level party, IIRC. So, he was Cleric 3/Wizard 3- it's possible they were 7th and he had his first level of MT. The party was heading into a tough area, but they were a tough bunch.

They were attacked by half a dozen bipedal polar bears (can't remember the name, from Frostburn). A single fireball would have devestated the foes, and made the combat a snap. Instead, it devolved into an ugly melee, with the party barely pulling out a win, and only doing so at the cost of a life (and even though this was the half-dragon monk, so his survival was always in doubt, let me stress that it was a near thing for all characters invovled).

Sure, the mystic theurge had lots of spells. He had all the spells of a 3rd (or 4th) level cleric and wizard. But Bless and Scorching Ray don't match Prayer and Fireball, spells that a 6th level party should have access to.

Once you get past the early levels, the class is better, but in each side of your casting, you're lagging three levels behind a single class caster. Your Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge 3/3/7 might have a lot more options than that Wizard 13, but you still only get to cast one spell around. And you're 5th level spells might be nifty, but he's slinging 7th level spells around. Against monsters with SR, he's +3 on his caster level compared to you, unless you take Practice Spellcaster, burning up two of your feats.

[Thanatos02]

I remember a gimmick that was a little iffy, but involved taking a level in Ur-Priest and get to level 9 in Wizard and Cleric spells, then shift over to Arch-Mage, but I don't remember how that worked...

[Pax]

I've seen a Favored Soul / Sorcerer Theurge. They had more spells than you could easily count - but none of those were all that stunning.
Shugenja/Sorceror. All your spellcasting on one attribute - addressing the primary concern related to the MT: unlike a straight Cleric or straight Wizard, you have TWO attributes to keep topped-up.

^_^ and it's still not broken.

[Vargo Teras]

Shugenja/Sorceror. All your spellcasting on one attribute - addressing the primary concern related to the MT: unlike a straight Cleric or straight Wizard, you have TWO attributes to keep topped-up.

^_^ and it's still not broken.

Bear in mind that any arcane caster, including a Warlock, can qualify for that half of the requirements at 1st level by taking the Precocious Apprentice feat (in Complete Arcane, the Arcane Campaigns chapter). This makes it considerably less balanced; you sacrifice only one level of divine caster, rather than the four which a sorceror/shugenja would normally lose.

[Pax]

I remember a gimmick that was a little iffy, but involved taking a level in Ur-Priest and get to level 9 in Wizard and Cleric spells, then shift over to Arch-Mage, but I don't remember how that worked...
That's more a problem with Ur-Priest and it's interaction with "+1 spellcaster level" prestige classes.

The idea is, with only 2 levels of Ur-Priest and 8 levels of MT, you can get all the way to 9th level Cleric spells. That leaves 10 levels to play with, so you can have an effective Wizard caster level of 18, for ALSO ninth level spells.

It eventually reaches this: Wizard(10)/Ur-Priest(2)/Mystic Theurge(8).

But as I said - that's more a problem with how PrCs meant to boost twenty-level spellcasting progressions interact with a class that has a ten-level progression.

My simple solution? For classes like Ur-Priest, it takes two levels of "+1 level" spellcasting boost from PrCs, to actually advance the Ur-Priest's spells-per-day by a single level.

In the example above, that ends up being only sixth-level Ur-Priest spellcasting, and this, only sixth level spells. Contrast to a Cleric(3)/Wizard(7)/MT(10) build, with 9th level Arcane spells ... and sixth level Divine spells. ^_^

[Particle_Man]

AS stated above, mix and match the wrong feat or prestige class with mystic theurge and you might, might have a problem. But by itself it ain't broken and is a little weak. (I think the precocious apprentice one was ruled as not supplying the prereq. for M.T., and if I am wrong, then, well, I would house rule it so that I am right. :) ).

If you do take mystic theurge, it is a good idea to take the feat practiced spellcaster so that you can at least have a better chance of beating SR and have a little more "oomph" in your spells that are caster-level dependant.

As I said elsewhere:

Practiced Spellcaster:

Prerequisite: You must suck.

Benefit: You suck less.

:)

[Pax]

Bear in mind that any arcane caster, including a Warlock, can qualify for that half of the requirements at 1st level by taking the Precocious Apprentice feat (in Complete Arcane, the Arcane Campaigns chapter). This makes it considerably less balanced; you sacrifice only one level of divine caster, rather than the four which a sorceror/shugenja would normally lose.
Not quite true.

The arcane requirement is "cast second-level arcane spells". That specifically and explicitly excludes the Warlock, I'm afraid: they don't CAST spells, period.

Although, frankly, I'd be inclined to allow it, after making sure I wasn't opening a major can of worms (by looking at what it could manage to do at mid- and upper-levels of MT, with some fairly extreme this-or-that-way builds).

[Pax]

If you do take mystic theurge, it is a good idea to take the feat practiced spellcaster so that you can at least have a better chance of beating SR and have a little more "oomph" in your spells that are caster-level dependant.
Definitely. And (Greater) Spell Penetration - SRis going to suck ass for you.

You might also want to consider Arcane Mastery, pick up an Orange Prism ioun stone for +1 caster level (to BOTH sides), and a Ring of Arcane Might for +1 to SR and Dispel checks.

With both items, and all four feats? (Which constitutes a not-insignificant investment, I might add ...) At (say) Cleric(3)/Wizard(7)/Theurge(10) ... focussing the PRactised Spellcaster on Cleric to bring both to an effective caster level of 17 ...?

You'll handle SRs of up to 31. Which is about one higher than you'd expect at 20th level.

Note,t hat with ONE feat and ONE item, a straight-class 'caster will be doing exactly the same. Your investment comes to an extra item AND three extra feats, just to keep up.

Ergo, I repeat: not broken.

[Vargo Teras]

Not quite true.

The arcane requirement is "cast second-level arcane spells". That specifically and explicitly excludes the Warlock, I'm afraid: they don't CAST spells, period.

Although, frankly, I'd be inclined to allow it, after making sure I wasn't opening a major can of worms (by looking at what it could manage to do at mid- and upper-levels of MT, with some fairly extreme this-or-that-way builds).
Precocious Apprentice permits anyone with an arcane caster level of 1 to cast a single 2nd level spell once per day. Warlocks have arcane caster level, even though they don't normally cast spells. Thus, they can take that feat and qualify for any PrC which requires the ability to cast a 0th, 1st or 2nd level arcane spell (they can take Extra Spell to get another slot of 0th or 1st), despite normally not casting spells.

[Polaris]

I have been a critic of the Mystic Theurge for some time and I have seen it in action. The M-T isn't broken (i.e. too powerful) on it's own. As others noted, in of itself it's actually sort of weak. However, the Mystic Theurge has the problem of being brittle.

The mystic theurge looks too powerful, but isn't because of sub-rosa (under the surface) balance considerations. They are:

1. You have to give up three casting levels in both classes to qualify. This is a big one because caster levels are worth their weight in platnium.

2. You will not have easy access to any other PrC that also gives double progression casting (like the Mystic Theurge), enhanced casting progression (like the Ur-Priest) or both.

3. You will not be able to Nova, i.e. cast more than one (two if quickened) spells in a given round.

4. You will have to maximize two spellcasting stats (this is another big limitation).

If the above balance considerations don't apply and/or are allowed to be bypassed then the mystic theurge starts looking really problematic.

-Polaris

[Borogove]

I'm of the opinion that the mystic theurge really should be a 14 or 15 level class, with easier entry requirements, but not quite full spellcasting. This would hopefully help make the class less fragile at early levels, and also harder to abuse by making most of the quick entrance tricks useless. Downside of course being that it's no longer epic ready.

[Pax]

Precocious Apprentice permits anyone with an arcane caster level of 1 to cast a single 2nd level spell once per day.
"[...] from a school of magic you have access to."

Warlocks do not have access to any schools of magic, ergo, they have no second-level spells to choose from. Further, that's in a sidebar entitled "Wizard training". And keep this in mind: that section says "If the DM wants the abilities of first-level wizards to reflect their training [...]".

I daresay, the feat was never intended to be allowed to Warlocks.

[(un)reason]

I think that if there were any D&D class that couldn't be made horribly more powerfull than usual via clever feat and multiclass selection, it would be the underpowered one. By that benchmark MT isn't broken.

Note that cerebromancer (the arcane/psionic multi+1 prestige class) is actualy slightly easier to horribly break. For example, Sorcerer/Ardent with practiced manifester. You can have full psionic power access (Ardents can learn any power on their list they can spend the points to manifest) and wizardly spellcasting at only one level below your character level, and the only cost is to your range of mantles and familiars power.

[Jon Chung]

The Cerebremancer has to take two sets of meta-X feats, however. Even with psionics-magic transparency, psionic feats (Power Penetration, Power Focus, Empower Power, etc) do not apply to spells, and vice versa.

[Sangrolu]

For the purposes of my campaign, it's very potent.

For the purposes of a typical dungeon bash, not so much.

As to why: I run a campaign with the mindset that they are multiple paths to any goal. Often skills and magic let players bypass combat if they are clever. The sheer breadth of magical utility that a MT has makes it a potential spotlight hog, as it stands the potential to solve many problems the party will face.

In a more typical heavily combat oriented D&D game, the overall reduction in caster level, greater vulnerability to SR at higher level, and lack of the more potent higher level spells makes MT not quite the bargain it may seem.

[Cam Banks]

In Dragonlance, it's usually only suitable for mystic/sorcerer multiclassed characters. The mystic is a spontaneous caster, similar to the favored soul only with a single domain. Because there's literally nothing much that the mystic or sorcerer will lose out on later by multiclassing unless you count the familiar (or certain domain powers), mystic 4/sorcerer 4 is a good route.

I wonder if anybody has ever tried something like paladin or ranger as the divine spellcasting side of a mystic theurge or not. Wow, that would be a sub-optimal choice. Ranger/bard/mystic theurge? :)

Cheers,
Cam

[Sangrolu]

In I wonder if anybody has ever tried something like paladin or ranger as the divine spellcasting side of a mystic theurge or not. Wow, that would be a sub-optimal choice. Ranger/bard/mystic theurge? :)

A little peice of the powergaming part of my soul just died.

[Zandar The Weeble]

Wow, and I only made that poster because more than a few people in the poster thread had commented how 2E Psionics (Schism, anyone?) was the height of all things Roquefort. Besides, I've seen a less experienced DM and a twinktacular higher level MT come close to devastating a six month campaign before.

Personally, I think Dragon Disciple or True Necromancer can have far worse effects on a campaign than MT from the aspect of ruining day-to-day grinding/sidequesting.

But yeah, I couldn't resist the poster. :)

[KoboldLord]

The Cerebremancer has to take two sets of meta-X feats, however. Even with psionics-magic transparency, psionic feats (Power Penetration, Power Focus, Empower Power, etc) do not apply to spells, and vice versa.

The Sudden X Metamagic feats, however, do work with transparency, and for the high-prerequisite feats like Sudden Quicken you can use either Vancian or PSP Metamagic to meet the prerequisites.

Realistically, being a Cerebremancer makes quite a few Metamagic feats irrelevant anyway. No need for Still Spell or Energy Substitution when you have psionic abilities, for instance, and if you'll probably be able to compartmentalize the sorts of things you'd want to Maximize (probably psionic, for damage spells) and the sorts of things you'd want to Extend (probably arcane, for party buffs) when you pick spells and powers.

The real reason Cerebremancer is radically more powerful than Mystic Theurge, however, is because Practiced Manifester is radically superior to Practiced Spellcaster. They both have the same impact on SR checks and damage scaling, but Practiced Manifester allows augmentations that change the nature of the spell to allow for abilities that normally do not exist at the lower caster level. An example would be Astral Construct vs. Summon Monster; your Wizard 3/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10 can cast Summon Monster VII or Astral Construct IX, while a Wizard 18 or Psion 18 would cast Summon Monster IX and Astral Construct IX, respectively. So the Cerebremancer only loses a chunk of PSPs in exchange for pretty decent arcane casting.

[Particle_Man]

A little peice of the powergaming part of my soul just died.

1 Laugh point from me.

[Will]

I used some MT as NPCs. Oh my god.

They don't work very well as NPCs in a straight-on encounter; NPCs have, generally, only a handful of rounds to do things before they flee, defeat the PCs, or (more usually) are defeated.

The robust range of spells a MT has... doesn't stack up well in this situation.

[Lolth]

The rulecruncher of my game group plays a MT character, and does OK; this suggests that the class is pretty much OK as it is...

(I've seen what happens when a class ISN'T OK...)

[The Formless One]

It is unimpressive.

Not bad, just unimpressive, and possibly quite boring in the sense that you get spells. No class features, no bonus feats, just spells.

They're potent in the right hands, but with the right collection of feats, items or whatchagidgets, a blind crippled deaf Commoner can defeat the mightest dragons single handedly. :D

[Ejbraman]

I was wondering, one of the people in our party has a wizard- ur priest- mystic theurge and claims it is balanced because she is struggling at low levels.

However very soon she will be able to cast higher level spells than the devoted divine caster and has taken practiced spell caster twice to have as high a caster level as the devoted arcane. Is this still balanced? Does mystic theurge actually increase your caster level in both or just give you more and higher level spells per day?

[Particle_Man]

Mixing Ur-Priest and MT can lead to a broken combo. That doesn't signify a problem with the MT so much as a problem with the Ur-Priest.

[Yo! Master]

The Ur-Priest is problematic in general. The core of so many overpowered builds, after all.

[Wakshaani]

It's ineresting, to be sure, and has some oddball interactions (Such as with True Necromancer, from the Heroes of Horror), but, it's not all that. Low levels it gets crippled, high level it's outshone, ittakes nigh-epic levels (18-20) before it starts to feel good and, even THEN you have stat issues.

Now, something like an Aasimar Paladin-Sorcerer Mystic Theurge *might* work, due to, you know, Charisma and Wisdom both being key, but, for most wizards, looking at a 19 Int (15 +4) and a 14Wisdom (13 +1), you can't even *use many of the levels that you'll wind up getting. Yeah, your Cleric 3, Wizard 3, MT 10 is nice, but, you still cap at 4th level spells on one side or the other.

It's a far cry from being broken, IMHO.