[D&D 3.5] Sell Me On Your Favourite Starting Character Build

[Deep One]

I am invited to play in a game of D&D 3.5 starting in a couple of hours. This is about all I know at this time.

Just to be on the safe side, I assume character choice will be restricted to PHB I only, characters will start at first level and, for ease of argument, let us also assume ability scores will be 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, your choice which number goes to what ability.

I am aiming at low-level play. While it will be entertaining to read of character builds that get into their own at 10th level, I don't really plan beyond 4th level, as I can't say how long the game will last at all; a character who is all the rage at, say, 3rd level, but loses in the long run, is just peachy. ;)

So, tell me about and sell me on the most powergaming, most efficient, coolest and/or most bizarre character you can think of. :)

I will start by presenting a fighter.

He's going to be human, for the extra feat and extra skill points. Abilities will be S15, D12 C14, I10, W8, C13, so he will have some charm to help him with the ladies.

His feats will be

Diehard - as an aside, I think it is probably the most useful feat in the whole book - when you are reduced to negative HP, you not only automatically stabilize, but you even stay conscious and are allowed partial actions! Or am I missing something?

The bridge feat for Diehard is Endurance, which allows you to sleep in medium armor, which seems incredibly useful for any character aside from monk, sorceror and wizard.

As an aside again, I wonder why anybody aside from monk, sorceror and wizard would NOT take these two feats?

As third feat, I'll go for Improved Unarmed Combat, just because it would be embarrassing for my fighter to be pwnxxored by some no-name yahoo in a tavern brawl.

As far as skills are concerned, there is not much to see, anyway, so let's just assume I spend them on Ride, Swim, Diplomacy, Spot and maybe some Craft or something so I can pretend I made a well-rounded character. :D

As for equipment, I'll take the average starting fund and buy chain shirt, large shield and long sword, together with some standard equipment and the odd alchemist item.

For level advancement, I'll wait if he finds a magic wapon before he makes 2nd level. If so, he Weapon Focusses that one at 2nd level, the 3rd level feat will go either into something that makes sense in the campaign, e.g. a Skill Focus of sorts, or something instantly useful like Improved Initiative (by my own definition, it doesn't make a lot of sense to start a feat chain then) and come 4th level, he'll do the obvious Weapon Specialization.

If there's no magic weapon in it for him, it's Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword at 2nd and Weapon Focus the same at 3rd level.

Ok, my fighter has a high survival likelihood but is a bit lame. So work the magic and show me what can be done! :)

[PaladinCA]

I am partial to two-handed weapons, although the longsword/shield warrior has the AC advantage early on.

I would take Power Attack, Cleave, and Expertise if I were human.

If I were a half-orc or a dwarf, I would take Power Attack and Cleave, followed by Expertise as soon as possible.

The two handed great axe or greatsword would be the most common choice, although a good pole arm is often overlooked.

Two handed weapon fighters can't forget a dagger or short sword as a backup weapon. :D

[RedFox]

I think going Dwarf is a better buy. The extra feat is nice as a human, but as a fighter skill points are kind of pointless.

Dwarven Fighter
STR 15 (+2), DEX 13 (+1), CON 16 (+3), INT 12 (+1), WIS 10 (+0), CHA 6 (-2)

13 HP, 17 AC (+4 Armor, +2 Shield, +1 Dex), 11 Touch AC, 16 Flat-Footed AC, Speed 20 ft, Initiative +1 (+1 Dex)

Fortitude Save +5, Reflex Save +1, Will Save +0

Base Attack Bonus +1, Melee +3, Ranged +2
Grapple +3

Attacks
Dwarven Waraxe: +3 Attack, Damage 1d10+2 Crit 20/x3, 8 lbs., slashing, medium, one-handed (Power Attack: +2, 1d10+3 damage)
Grapple: +3 Attack, Damage 1d3+2, Crit 20/x2, Bludgeoning, Medium, One-handed
Unarmed Strike: +3 Attack, Damage 1d3+2, Crit 20/x2, Bludgeoning, Medium, One-handed
Handaxe: +3 Attack, Damage 1d6+2, Crit 20/x3, 3 lbs., Slashing, Medium, One-handed

Skills
Appraise¹ +1
Balance¹ –3
Bluff¹ –2
Climb¹ –2
Concentration¹ +3
Craft skills…¹ +1
Diplomacy¹ –2
Disguise¹ –2
Escape Artist¹ –3
Forgery¹ +1
Gather Information¹ –2
Heal¹ +0
Hide¹ –3
Intimidate¹ –2
Jump¹ –8
Knowledge (dungeoneering) +3 (2 ranks)
Listen¹ +2 (2 ranks)
Move Silently¹ –3
Perform skills ...¹ –2
Ride¹ +1
Search¹ +1
Sense Motive¹ +0
Spot¹ +2 (2 ranks)
Survival¹ +0
Swim¹ –6
Use Rope¹ +1

Skills marked with ¹ can be used normally even if the character has zero (0) skill ranks.

Armor
Chain Shirt, Light armor, +4 AC, +4 Max Dex, -2 ACP, 20% spell failure, Speed 20, Weight 25 lbs.
Shield
Heavy wooden shield, +2 AC, 10 lbs., -2 ACP, 15% spell failure

Racial Abilities
• +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma
• Base land speed of 20 feet.
• Darkvision 60 feet.
• +2 racial bonus on Fortitude saves against poison.
• Stonecunning: +2 racial bonus on checks to notice unusual stonework.
Can find such by passing within 10 feet, and can find stonework traps as a
rogue can. Can intuit depth.
• Weapon Familiarity: You treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes
as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
• Stability: Dwarves are exceptionally stable on their feet. A dwarf gains a +4
bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when
standing on the ground.
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects
• +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids
• +4 dodge bonus against giants
• +2 racial bonus on Appraise and Craft checks that deal with stone or
metal.
• Favored Class: Fighter
Class Abilities
• Proficient in all armor, and all shields(including tower shields)
• Proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with Dwarven Urgrosh,
Dwarven Waraxe.
Feats
• Power Attack
• Cleave

Also give him some sort of ranged weapon, depending on what you can afford. Power Attack is going to be nice from level 2 onward, and Cleave is devestating against low-level enemies like goblins and rats that go down in one swing. Sure, you can't sleep in your armor, but you want to get heavy armor ASAP anyway. The dwarven racial abilities are simply too sweet to pass up, honestly. Especially at low levels. Orcs and goblins as racial enemies? Yes please!

[PaladinCA]

Can't argue with that dwarf fighter build and they usually have a much easier time (much less grief about race) than a half-orc in most campaign settings. :cool:

[RedFox]

Can't argue with that dwarf fighter build and they usually have a much easier time (much less grief about race) than a half-orc in most campaign settings. :cool:

True. If he'd said it was open to the MM, I'd have built it as an orc maybe with a double-axe. But half-orc? Nah.

The only thing that bugs me about the build I just posted is the +0 WIS, because Fighters have a tough enough time with Will saves already.

Still, I think it's nicer to be able to buy up three Skills (covering the "how to kill these things" skill and the two "don't get caught flat-footed" skills) and Cloaks of Resistance tend to show up fairly early in all the games I play.

[Deep One]

A two-handed weapon has potential, but I have to see if my strength is high enough to merit its use. ;) You made a good point with Cleave, in low-level play I am likely to see 1HD opponents a lot. Are you recommending Combat Expertise in regard to Great Cleave later on?

And another point: Regarding Arcane Spell Users, is there anything that I should be aware of? - Let me see, Sleep being still the most powerful attack spell for a 1st level wizard, Identify is a must-have, Shield and Mage Armor combine to give +8 AC bonus, Mount and Disguise Self can be used for easy money. :D Oh, yes, and I have to go Specialist for the extra break the additional spell gives me at 1st and 2nd level.

[Deep One]

RedFox,

I wasn't aware of the built-in feats with urgrosh and war axe dwarves have. :)

Admittedly the Diehard feat isn't necessary if the cleric can be trusted to be up to his job. I will have to see if his player seems like a seasoned gamer. :D

[RedFox]

Caster?

If you're going to specialize in Illusion, go gnome. Otherwise, the extra feat from being Human is too good to pass up. Plus it gives you Skill points, which complements your high INT.

ALWAYS GET A CROSSBOW, or some other ranged weapon. As a Wizard at low levels, you'll be doing most of your damage through your weapon, oddly enough.

Sleep is hard to beat. I'd recommend Grease, save that it only gets more useful when the duration gets longer. Identify isn't really worth it (100 gp? Screw that at low levels). Mage Armor's great. Shield protects you from Magic Missiles, so it's also great.

Color Spray is freakin' fantastic if it's within your school. Also consider Chromatic Orb if you have access to FR stuff.

Don't underestimate your 0-level spells. Things like Daze and Disrupt Undead can be exceedingly useful in the right circumstances.

You absolutely must get the skills Concentrate, Knowledge (Arcana), and Spellcraft.

Combat Casting's a good feat for lower levels. As is Dodge. Metamagic stuff is pretty much not worth the bother if you're not going to assume long-term play. Instead, consider stuff like Spell Focus, which can help you by raising saving throw DCs on your spells.

For Attributes, INT is a no-brainer (pardon the pun. Go Int 15, Dex 14, Con 13, Wis 12, Str 10, Cha 8. Feel free to swap the last two, depending on whether you want to be social or carry more stuff. ;)

[RedFox]

RedFox,

I wasn't aware of the built-in feats with urgrosh and war axe dwarves have. :)

It wasn't in 3.0, as I recall... being introduced in 3.5. It's pretty cool though, IMO. A lot of races got special stuff like that. Orcs get double-axe as martial, and gnomes get a hook hammer thing. Neat stuff.

Admittedly the Diehard feat isn't necessary if the cleric can be trusted to be up to his job. I will have to see if his player seems like a seasoned gamer. :D

Well, another thing to keep in mind is if you have a decent modifier on your Stabilize rolls. Diehard's nice, but Endurance isn't so much (unless you're a Druid, Ranger, or Rogue) because you'll either not wear light armor (Wizardly types) or eventually get something better than Medium (Cleric, Fighter, etc.)

[John P.]

If you're going for sheer powah, and vanilla PHB stuff, i think it's really difficult to beat Halfling casters. And since you're mostly interested in low-level play, Sorcerors at that. Without too much tinkering:

STR 6 (-2)
DEX 16 (+3)
CON 13 (+1)
INT 12 (+1)
WIS 10 (+0)
CHA 15 (+2)

AC: 13+1 =14 (with Mage Armor, Shield, and Reduce, you'll soon get at 23! More than the party's tank can hope for, for many, many levels to come)

Saves: Fort +4/Dex +4/Will +2 (w/Rat familiar). Pretty amazing for a 1st level character.

Attacks: Color Spray is all you need at low levels (it's better than Sleep, because it continues to be useful at higher levels), plus Magic Missile.

And you get a sling, or other throwing weapon, at +5/+6 to hit (+3 from Dex, +1 Halfing racial mod, and +1/+2 size mod), which again is pretty swell for a 1st level caster.

You get a bunch of other useful stuff, like bonuses to really useful skills, racial bonus to Hide, and +2 vs Fear. Hide is especially important, since you can Color Spray-snipe groups of enemies.

For your Feat, i'd go with either Improved Initiative or Luck of Heroes, depending on how long the campaign is gonna last. Buffed saves are always good, but much more crucial on later levels. Initiative on the other hand, is always crucial, more so for a caster (and with the Feat and yer Dex, you get a nice +7).

[Juriel]

Damn, I was going to suggest a Halfling Sorcerer, with pretty much the same advice...
So consider that seconded! Even if I'd pick something like light crossbow, and a focus for it as the feat...

[Deep One]

Gentlemen, as I am about to depart to the game, I thank you very much for your input at very short notice. I will have to see what the group is like and what characters the others roll up. As I expect there will be not too much knowledge of the rules around, I probably will allow myself to be saddled with the class no one of the others wants to play. If I have any choice, I will most likely try my hands at a halfing wizard or sorcerer.

In any case, I will report back in the evening about how the game did play out. :)

[Mr Adventurer]

Diehard - as an aside, I think it is probably the most useful feat in the whole book - when you are reduced to negative HP, you not only automatically stabilize, but you even stay conscious and are allowed partial actions! Or am I missing something?Not really. All it does is give you 10 more hp before you fall over. At medium-high levels, the usefulness of this feat falls right off to nothing.The bridge feat for Diehard is Endurance, which allows you to sleep in medium armor, which seems incredibly useful for any character aside from monk, sorceror and wizard.Not really. Just get some chain shirt jimjams and you'll be fine; it looks like you want a chain shirt anyway. Endurance really isn't that good of a feat, and from a character optimisation perspective it's worthless.As third feat, I'll go for Improved Unarmed Combat, just because it would be embarrassing for my fighter to be pwnxxored by some no-name yahoo in a tavern brawl.Don't bother. No-name yahoos in a tavern brawl don't have Str 15, a good BAB, or the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, either, so I don't see that you'd have any problems.For level advancement, I'll wait if he finds a magic wapon before he makes 2nd level.This seems pretty unlikely, for note. If there's no magic weapon in it for him, it's Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword at 2nd and Weapon Focus the same at 3rd level.Bastard Sword proficiency isn't worth the feat; on average, all it gives you is 1 more point of damage. One! For an entire feat! Almost every other Exotic weapon has other benefits, like bonuses to trip or disarm. The bastard sword has nothing.

Armor
Chain Shirt, Light armor,
...
Sure, you can't sleep in your armorActually, you can sleep in a chain shirt as it is light armour.

Orcs get double-axe as martial, No they didn't.Well, another thing to keep in mind is if you have a decent modifier on your Stabilize rolls.Stabilisation rolls don't have modifiers; they are a flat 10% chance.

Gentlemen, as I am about to depart to the game, I thank you very much for your input at very short notice. I will have to see what the group is like and what characters the others roll up. As I expect there will be not too much knowledge of the rules around, I probably will allow myself to be saddled with the class no one of the others wants to play. If I have any choice, I will most likely try my hands at a halfing wizard or sorcerer.

In any case, I will report back in the evening about how the game did play out. :)
Please do :).

EDIT: As for my own favourite 1st level build... hmm...

Warrior: Dwarf Fighter 1; Str 15, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 8; Power Attack, Dodge; Waraxe, Scale Mail
Mage: Elf Wizard 1; Str 8, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 10; Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (your choice); Light Crossbow, Dagger; Colour Spray, Mage Armour, Detect Magic

Probably...

[Dave Turner]

Seems like it's too late, but you'll probably come back to the thread, Deep One. I was going to say that you made good RPing choices for your Fighter 1 in the OP, but D&D doesn't usually reward RP choices. The follow-up post with a dwarven fighter or a Power Attack, Cleave, and Expertise fighter would have been a much more exciting choice than the Endurance, Diehard, Imp. Nat. Attack, and high CHA ladies man route.

My fave 1st level build? I'd probably go with:

Warrior: Human Fighter, Str: 15, Con: 12, Dex: 14, Int: 13, Wis: 10, Cha: 8, Exotic Weap. Prof (Spiked Chain), Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, weapon: spikey chain, armor: chainmail [Say what you want about cheese, but spiked chain fighter is the most fun you can have as a D&D warrior!]

Arcane: Gnome Sorcerer, Str: 6, Con: 14, Dex: 12, Int: 14, Wis: 13, Cha: 15, Improved Initiative, weapon: light crossbow, Color Spray, Silent Image [He's a sorcerer who only takes Illusion spells. Character concept I've always loved].

With all that said, best low level character in any D&D game is the druid. Hell, druids are the best character at any level! ;)

Druid: Human Druid 1, Str: 14, Con: 12, Dex: 10, Int: 8, Wis: 15, Cha: 13, Improved Initiative, Track, weapon: scimitar, armor: hide.

[Gyrfalcon]

What, no Rogue love? :)

Best races, mechanically, are either Human or Halfling. Human for the feat (skill points are always nice, but you'll be getting LOTS in any case, so that's less of an issue), Halfling for the Dex bonus.

Human Rogue statline: Str 8, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 12
Halfling Rogue statline: Str 8, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 12
(Str can be used in a dump stat in either case, because you're not going to rely much on going head-to-head. Flanking, bluffing, and other tactics to add sneak attack dice make a -1 Strength penalty barely noticeable.)
Ten skills in either case - Bluff, Disable Device, Gather Information, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, and two of Sense Motive, Tumble and Use Magic Device depending on the strengths of the rest of the party.
Human rogue gets two feats - either Expertise and Improved Feint, if a mostly melee combatant is expected, or Point-Blank Shot and Rapid Shot if an archer is desired. Weapon Finesse and Improved Initiative are on the list, but IMHO a human's bonus feat is best used to move quickly along a feat chain.
Halfling rogue takes Weapon Finesse. No contest.
Rapier, shortbow, leather armor, and noncombat adventuring kit including thieves' tools.

You'll shine. ;)

[Sleeper]

Two oddball core-only melee options I've run across:

Half-pint hell raiser: Halflings can be surprisingly effective in melee. Compared to a human, they get a +1 bonus on attack rolls from size, and another +1 from Dex if the weapon is finessable. If they take power attack (which means you have to put the 15 in Strength) and use the only finessable two-handed weapon (the spiked chain), once their BAB is +2 or higher they can convert that +2 bonus on attack rolls to +4 damage, more than making up for the -2.5 damage from their reduced Str and size. The higher Dex also helps AC, initiative, and Combat Reflexes. Since there are a lot of attractive follow-up feats (Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization are all core), this works best with a fighter.

Sword and cutting board: Two-weapon fighters generally have a poor AC and don't do as much damage as two-handed weapon wielders, which is part of the reason why rangers are often considered second-string melee combatants (low hit points don't help, either). One way around this is to take the Improved Shield Bash feat, a light shield, shield spikes, and the bashing enchantment. This gives your ranger a +1 shield that at the same time is also a +1 weapon doing 1d8 points of base damage in your off hand, for a bit over 4,000 gp (probably 7th or 8th level before it becomes feasible).

-Pat

[Kintara]

What, no Rogue love? :)

Best races, mechanically, are either Human or Halfling. Human for the feat (skill points are always nice, but you'll be getting LOTS in any case, so that's less of an issue), Halfling for the Dex bonus.

Human Rogue statline: Str 8, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 12
Halfling Rogue statline: Str 8, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 12
(Str can be used in a dump stat in either case, because you're not going to rely much on going head-to-head. Flanking, bluffing, and other tactics to add sneak attack dice make a -1 Strength penalty barely noticeable.)
Ten skills in either case - Bluff, Disable Device, Gather Information, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, and two of Sense Motive, Tumble and Use Magic Device depending on the strengths of the rest of the party.
Human rogue gets two feats - either Expertise and Improved Feint, if a mostly melee combatant is expected, or Point-Blank Shot and Rapid Shot if an archer is desired. Weapon Finesse and Improved Initiative are on the list, but IMHO a human's bonus feat is best used to move quickly along a feat chain.
Halfling rogue takes Weapon Finesse. No contest.
Rapier, shortbow, leather armor, and noncombat adventuring kit including thieves' tools.

You'll shine. ;)
You can't take Weapon Finesse at first level, as a Rogue. I would say Improved Initiative is one of the best all around useful low level feats, but most Rogues want to start working on either Two Weapon Fighting or Spring Attack (which are the two bedrock melee strategies). So either Dodge or Two Weapon Fighting are good bets, followed by Weapon Finesse at level 3. If human, I'd take Improved Init as my second feat if TWF, and Mobility if shooting for Spring Attack. If going ranged (which is hard for a Rogue because flanking is by far the easiest way to set up sneak attacks), take Precise Shot as your second feat. It's way worth it because you'll be firing into melee all the time. And Improved Initiative should be on the list for ranged Rogues because you really want to win initiative (so that your enemies are flat-footed).

Also, I consider Tumble nigh essential if you expect to be in combat at least a fair amount of time. And Use Magic Device is really useful too. Those would be my choices (after Hide/Move Silently, Spot/Listen, Search/Disable Device, and Bluff). I hate that Open Lock is a separate skill from Disable Device, and I don't recommend taking Open Lock because there are other ways to open a lock (including magic). If it were rolled into Disable Device, then a Rogue could still be the cool and silent lock picker and not feel like he's wasting precious skill points.

Edit: If you want a less standard Rogue, a beefy Power Attacking Half-Orc Rogue with an Axe is fun because all of the enemies assume you're a dumb tank. Laugh when the mages drop Fireballs on you and you Evade with no harm done. ;)

[owe for the flesh]

I've got to third (or is it fourth?) Color Spray. When my current character (a sorcerer) took it at 1st level I was expecting to be nigh-on useless. Now, at level 4, it's still my primary offensive spell.

[Wakshaani]

And another point: Regarding Arcane Spell Users, is there anything that I should be aware of? - Let me see, Sleep being still the most powerful attack spell for a 1st level wizard, Identify is a must-have, Shield and Mage Armor combine to give +8 AC bonus, Mount and Disguise Self can be used for easy money. :D Oh, yes, and I have to go Specialist for the extra break the additional spell gives me at 1st and 2nd level.

Speel notes:

Sleep is about the *worst* spell you can take as a first level mage. "Wha?" you say? "Wak is MAD!" you say! But, here's the kicker. Everyone's so used to teh spell from the 70's version that they never look at the modern one. Go ahead and grab your book. I'll wait.

...

...

...

Back? Okay, good. Now, go take a gander at the casting time. One Round. One *entire* round. Which means if you start it on round 1, it won't trigger until round two. By then, the enemy is probably mixed up with your team in melee, which can be Heap Bad for you. Not at all a godo spell to start with.

Identify's not that big a deal, to be honest. Teh spell component's too expensive for a starting caster, for example. better to just 'Rent' an NPC when needed.

Shield and Mage Armro are ones that I, personally, avoid ... if your mage is getting attacked, something's gone terribly wrong. You're better off hoisting around a shield and wearing leather armor, to be honest. A 10% arcane failure chance isn't that bad, but, your +4 AC is always there. Odd are that you won't need a spell *that* fast at any rate.

Disguise Self is fair, and has uses, while Mount is *the* spell for first level casters, bar none. Way, way useful. You'll kick yourself every time you could have used it and didn't slot it.

As for a fave build?

Well, I've been partial to this one:

"The Elven Princess"

The basic Elven royalty who ran away from home type, she's young, stuck-up, and vain, but has a good heart and, eventually, grows into a good leader and companion. A play on teh classic "Elven Fighter-Mage", she has enough social skills to act as the 'Face' of the party, enough melee skill to stay alive, and enough magic to be a good secodnary, or even primary, wizard.

First level is Aristocrat (NPC class from the DMG, requires DM permission but should be easy), the next 5 are in Wizard, probably a specialst.

STR 10
DEX 15 (13+2)
CON 10 (12-2)
INT 15
WIS 8
CHA 14

Skill Points at first level: 36
Hit Points: 8

Armed with Longsword, Dagger, Chain Shirt, and Large Shield, topped off with a light crossbow, she sports an AC of 18, but has no melee modifiers. Will later improve to a Rapier and, eventually, a Mithril Chain Shirt.

Feat: First level should be Negotiation, third level brings Weapon Finese, while sixth level (And the bonus feat for being a 5th level wizard) goes into magical ability ... personally, you can't go wrong with Craft Wand, and then either Brew Potion, if you have several enhancing spells (Bulls Strength etc) or Create Arms and Armor, if the game's been a bit skimpy in that field. Misc Magic Items are saved for a later level, when you have the spells to craft more stuff.

SO, first six levels:

1- Aristorcrat 1
2 - Ar 1/Wizard 1
3 - AR 1/Wizard 2 + feat
4 - AR 1/ Wiz 3 + Int
5 - AR 1/Wiz 4
6- AR 1/Wiz 5 + Feat + Bonus Feat

From there, you can take a second Aritocrat level for skills, or switch to a prestiege class at this time. Either way, you're gonna be able to fight some, cast well, and deal with skill-based problems, all at the same time, capped off with a neat bit of roleplaying.

Not the most powerful character ever, but, cool is better. :)

[Gigaknight]

Human Cleric
Str14 Dex 10 Con 13 Int 8 Wis 15 Cha 13
Feats: Endurance Diehard
Domains: Pick a got which nets any 2 Strenght, War, Magic, Luck, Travel, Destruction, Protection
Skills: Concentration 4 Any other class skill 4

Why this is the Greatest:

Put bluntly its solid in fight thanks to armour and some ok weapons (longspear, morning star & shield along with some javlins are more than enough to get though low level) , casts spells (not just healing ones, also buff and some single target nasties) and everyone loves being healed. Also cleric is the most powerful class in the game.

[Njorhg]

Half-pint hell raiser: Halflings can be surprisingly effective in melee. Compared to a human, they get a +1 bonus on attack rolls from size, and another +1 from Dex if the weapon is finessable. If they take power attack (which means you have to put the 15 in Strength) and use the only finessable two-handed weapon (the spiked chain), once their BAB is +2 or higher they can convert that +2 bonus on attack rolls to +4 damage, more than making up for the -2.5 damage from their reduced Str and size. The higher Dex also helps AC, initiative, and Combat Reflexes. Since there are a lot of attractive follow-up feats (Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization are all core), this works best with a fighter.Will probably only break even with its Medium-sized relatives, but this is the build I'll take with me from this thread.

[Valfader]

Speel notes:

Sleep is about the *worst* spell you can take as a first level mage. "Wha?" you say? "Wak is MAD!" you say! But, here's the kicker. Everyone's so used to teh spell from the 70's version that they never look at the modern one. Go ahead and grab your book. I'll wait.

...

...

...

Back? Okay, good. Now, go take a gander at the casting time. One Round. One *entire* round. Which means if you start it on round 1, it won't trigger until round two. By then, the enemy is probably mixed up with your team in melee, which can be Heap Bad for you. Not at all a godo spell to start with.

Yep. I still think you're mad ;)

While your mates might be in melee, the 10 foot burst is still useful, as it only takes a little imagination to make it affect just those orcs on the front line, by placing it practically. Also, especially outside, the 100ft + 10ft/level is going to be practical, if some warning has been had. It might not take effect until your initiative next round, but that makes an excellent argument for Improved Initiative, not for avoiding that spell.

Regarding Shield and Armour, I also think those are useful. The wizard being attacked is going to happen, no matter what. 20% less chance of him being hit. Being hit on first level, is close to a death sentence, for a D4 HD.

I do agree that many of the first level utility spells are good, and often ignored, though.

[Wakshaani]

Oh, we could do a whole *thread* about keeping a low-level mage alive and useful, but, that's not why we're in this one. :) Remind me later, tho, and I'll discuss it in detail. Short form, tho, is that the Wizard's job really isn't to make things go kerblooey ... the other classes do that just fine. The *real* strength of the class comes from doing things that nobody else in the group can do; flying, getting past Arcane Lock'd doors, vanishing in plain sight, and so on. Utility is *so* much more useful than Ye Olde Blasting. Not to say that the latter isn't HANDY, but, it's not really the forte.

For another nice starting build:

Human Cleric 1

Str 8
Dex 12
Con 10
Int 13
Wis 15
Cha 14

Skill Points at first level: 16
Feats: Improved Turning, Scribe Scroll

The magical Cleric build, this one focuses strongly on Turning and spellcasting, being able to create scrolls right out of the gate. This allows you to keep several situational spells at hand, while keeping your extremely valuable spell slots for team buffing or healing abilities. Improved Turning lets you dust Skeletons right out of the gate, which are generally hard for the average group of archers and swordsmen to deal with, and will keep you at or ahead of the hit dice curve for the rest of your career. Third level sees you able to destroy common Zombies on a 2+ on a D20. Woo! (2 + 2 Cha modifier = 4. 4 = Cleric Level -2. Improved Turning raises your level by one, thus, final is your level -1, which = 2 which = Zombie hit dice. As a bonus, since your level is '4' for turning purposes, this means that you have twice or more hit dice of the Undead, thus dusting rather than turning. YAY!)

Picking up Brew Potion at 3rd level sets you up with quite the gaggle of spell options, while 6th level can see more magical item creation feats, saving throw modifiers, skill boosts, or even Metamagical feats. Woo!

[Valfader]

Oh, we could do a whole *thread* about keeping a low-level mage alive and useful, but, that's not why we're in this one. :) Remind me later, tho, and I'll discuss it in detail. Short form, tho, is that the Wizard's job really isn't to make things go kerblooey ... the other classes do that just fine. The *real* strength of the class comes from doing things that nobody else in the group can do; flying, getting past Arcane Lock'd doors, vanishing in plain sight, and so on. Utility is *so* much more useful than Ye Olde Blasting. Not to say that the latter isn't HANDY, but, it's not really the forte.

Oh, I agree that making things go kaboom, or ZzZzZz isn't the wizard's stick.

Versitality is something they have in abundance, but it's not going to show in a combat-heavy enviroment.

This brings me to thing that I consider good advice for a mage, at any given level. Leave at least one spell slot open! Just in case there's some impassable thing, you are only going to need 10 minutes to get a spell from your spellbook, instead of a full 8 hour rest period, to get the spell you need to pass said thing. This might not be a good idea, if you know exactly what lies ahead, but I must admit that I don't think that it will hurt to be prepared for the unexpected.

For another nice starting build:

Human Cleric 1

Str 8
Dex 12
Con 10
Int 13
Wis 15
Cha 14

Skill Points at first level: 16
Feats: Improved Turning, Scribe Scroll

The magical Cleric build, this one focuses strongly on Turning and spellcasting, being able to create scrolls right out of the gate. This allows you to keep several situational spells at hand, while keeping your extremely valuable spell slots for team buffing or healing abilities. Improved Turning lets you dust Skeletons right out of the gate, which are generally hard for the average group of archers and swordsmen to deal with, and will keep you at or ahead of the hit dice curve for the rest of your career. Third level sees you able to destroy common Zombies on a 2+ on a D20. Woo! (2 + 2 Cha modifier = 4. 4 = Cleric Level -2. Improved Turning raises your level by one, thus, final is your level -1, which = 2 which = Zombie hit dice. As a bonus, since your level is '4' for turning purposes, this means that you have twice or more hit dice of the Undead, thus dusting rather than turning. YAY!)

Picking up Brew Potion at 3rd level sets you up with quite the gaggle of spell options, while 6th level can see more magical item creation feats, saving throw modifiers, skill boosts, or even Metamagical feats. Woo!

Very nice. Any recommended domains?

[_rodan_]

My fav domains are luck, war, strength, and sun.

[Wakshaani]

Very nice. Any recommended domains?

Designed as a Pelor follower, so, Sun and Healing are the usuals, but, about anything works. Partial to Knowledge, personally, which opens up the knowledge skills for your extra skill points.

While I'm hear. it's time for "Farmboy Done Good", aka, the Paladin.

Str 14
Dex 8
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 13
Cha 15

Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficency: Bastard Sword, Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword

(3rd level = Negotiator or Skill Focus: Diplomacy, 6th level can be Scribe Scroll or Power Attack, 9th level is Improve Critical: Bastard Sword)

Skill points at first level: 12 (Suggested Handle Animal 2, Profession: Farmer 4, Diplomacy 4, Knowledge: Religion 2) ... Odd, but good for roleplaying and leaves it open for modification later. Star as a farmboy, learn to be a Knight in Shining Armor later with Ride, Knowledge: Royalty, and more into Diplomacy ... the latter allows you to 'save' enemies and turn them onto a path of righteousness, convert neutrals to allies, and allies to loves. Be heroic!

Chain Shirt, Large Shield, Bastard Sword, Dagger, Light Crossbow

4th level = +1 Charisma, 8th level = +1 Wisdom, 12, 16, and 20 are +1 Charisma.

This gives you the 16 Charisma at 4th level, for +3 on all saves, Smite, and a general "Leadership" vibe ... plus you can turn undead pretty well when asked. Teh 14 Wisdom kicks in right as you get access to 2nd level spells, netting you another +1 to Will saves, and, in general, giving you the "Good hearted king" vibe for down the road.

Of particular note is, at 6th level, the tough call of Power Attack or Scribe Scroll. The former is teh default for a more martial type, but, at this level, the armor class of your opponents gets high enough that, quite often, a power attack modification will miss. And whiffing is bad. In general, it's better to just keep hacking away with your normal BAB, making sure that you hit, since you're not going "Two-handed fighter" for extreme damage levels.

Scribe Scroll lets you switch modes to a backup spellcaster, keeping on hand a few extra Paladin spells, some of which are just insanely good (Bless Weapon, I'm looking at you!) and none of which are very expensive. Something as simple as a Protection from Evil scroll will give you *massive* benefits for just 12 gold, a pittance at 6th level. No one ever takes it for a Paladin, but, if you try it, you might just find that you like it.

(Oh, and the feats in general are a bit flexible. Skill Focus: Diplomacy and Iron Will are also good heroic feats, and Ride Attack at 3rd level if you want more of a Charging Knight vibe. I don't reccomend it, but, option's there.)

[Valfader]

Designed as a Pelor follower, so, Sun and Healing are the usuals, but, about anything works. Partial to Knowledge, personally, which opens up the knowledge skills for your extra skill points.

As an evil counterpart, it could be nasty to have Death and Knowledge.

[Wakshaani]

As an evil counterpart, it could be nasty to have Death and Knowledge.

And now I'm trying to remember if Evil Clerics can turn Paladins in 3.5 or not.

...

Curse you!

[Loup Du Noir]

And now I'm trying to remember if Evil Clerics can turn Paladins in 3.5 or not.

Nope, just Rebuke/Command Undead.

[Deep One]

I have a couple of questions concerning your posts to ask later, but first about yesterday's game:

The GM was the only one aside from me who had read the PHB already and even though he set the campaign in the Kingdoms of Kalamar setting and permitted us to choose from its races and sub-races, he decided to allow only the PHB feats for the time being.

The group consists of three other players, only two of which attended the session yesterday. When I arrived they had already decided to play a human paladin and a CG wild elf rogue built with an eye towards melee capacity, respectively. It was not known which class the third player will choose. Rolling up was done with 4D6, drop lowest, and I lucked out with 17, 15, 15, 15, 12, 12.

Immediately I threw caution and all pretense at powergaming and efficiency overboard and decided to play a bard; having been madly in love with the 3.5 bard ever since I first opened the PHB, I simply had to jump at the chance. :)

We were allowed to raise attribute scores via the 2:1 method, as I had good attributes already, I was asked not to overdo it. Choosing the Reenarian human subrace with its -1 Str/+1 Cha attribute mod, I ended up with STR 10, INT 15, WIS 11, DEX 16, CON 15, CHA 18. As I think about it now, it was rather stupid way to do it thusly as I will only be able to raise all three odd-numbered attributes to the next bonus in the unlikely case I ever make it to 12th level. Darn.

As feats I chose Endurance and Diehard despite the many valid points you made against that choice. Edited to add that you were right, these feats are not worth it. Fortunately I will probably allowed to change them. :o

Next, skills. The GM strongly encouraged us to take knowledge skills, introducing Knowledge: Races (meaning the human and demi-huan subraces) and Knowledge: Monsters (including the humanoid races apparently). He also councelled me to neglect Sense Motive but to put points into Appraise.

With the wild elf taking all thievery Dex-based skills and Knowledge: Local and the Paladin having Knowledge: Religion and Knowledge: Nobility, I distributed my points this way:

(Skill/Skill points put into it/Total bonus)

Perform 4, +8
Diplomacy 4, +8
Gather Information 2, +6 (yes, now I wonder, too, for taking 10 against the typical DC of 15, one point would have been enough)
Listen 1, +1 (as a bard, I figured I should show a miniumum of goodwill at least :o)
Use Magic Device 4, +8
Appraise 3, +5
Decipher Script 4, +6
Disguise 3, +7
Knowledge: Monsters 4, +6
Knowledge: Races 3, +5
Knowledge: History 4, +6

(In case you are wondering, I wrote down the skills in the order they have on my German character sheet.) - Yes, that's right. No Move Silently, no Hide, not a single point to Ride or Swim either. But I don't see how I could have done things any different. Maxed Perform is a given. Decipher Script and Use Magic Device have unholy high DCs so I had to max them as well. Same with Knowledge: Monsters and Diplomacy. I need five ranks in Knwledge: History for the +2 synergy bonus to Bardic Knowledge and three ranks in Appraise and Knowledge: Races in order to be able to Take Ten against the usual DC of 15. I might scrape one point from Gather Information and it can be argued if Disguise is important at all. The one point in Listen is more a character issue, I admit.

As for 0-level spells I took Daze, Mage Hand, Detect Magic and Read Magic.

------
For those of you who have beared with me that far, here's the catch: The GM mentioned our character build probably is not cast in stone, so he might allow for some changes. So while I won't be able to change my class, race and very likely the ability scores, he might allow some toying around with the feats, skills and spells. And while I generally like the way I did things I would like to hear your take on the matter. From which feats I would profit? How could the skills be rearranged? Any change in spells you would suggest?

Fire away! :)

[Deep One]

Not really. All it does is give you 10 more hp before you fall over. At medium-high levels, the usefulness of this feat falls right off to nothing.Not really. Just get some chain shirt jimjams and you'll be fine; it looks like you want a chain shirt anyway. Endurance really isn't that good of a feat, and from a character optimisation perspective it's worthless.Don't bother.

Actually, you can sleep in a chain shirt as it is light armour.

Yes. Indeed. I can sleep in light armor, so the Endurance feat is next to worthless. And while I do like Diehard, this breaks the deal. First thing tomorrow I will email the GM and ask to change my feats. I took me a while but it did sink in now.

Identify isn't really worth it (100 gp? Screw that at low levels).

Identify's not that big a deal, to be honest. Teh spell component's too expensive for a starting caster, for example. better to just 'Rent' an NPC when needed.
It is very likely that an NPC would charge at least the double spell component cost, no? - But the question of Identify or not Identify is mostly depending on the GM's POV, I think. He seems to be of the low-magic school of thought, meaning that he will probably not dish out a lot of magic items; but also that NPC spell casters are generally not available for hire, and the few that are around are either busy or untrustworthy. But as I have to email the GM anyway, I might as well ask him if taking Identify is advisable. And maybe player #3 will build a wizard, then it is his problem. :D

[Mr Adventurer]

He also councelled me to neglect Sense Motive but to put points into Appraise.Dude, Sense Motive is a really, really good skill. I would take it; so few classes have it on their lists and even fewer people actually take it.
As for 0-level spells I took Daze, Mage Hand, Detect Magic and Read Magic.Not a bad selection. Make sure to take a look at the bard-only spells, when they crop up, as they can be really cool.
It is very likely that an NPC would charge at least the double spell component cost, no?

From the SRD: Cost for a 1st level spell = caster level x 10gp; The cost given is for a spell with no cost for a material component or focus component and no XP cost. If the spell includes a material component, add the cost of that component to the cost of the spell. So, in your low-magic world, you ought to be able to find a 1st level wizard who will cast Identify for 110gp.

[AbusePuppy]

I'd like to point out that at higher levels Endurance lets you sleep in a suit of mithril full plate without penalty- that's nothing to sneeze at. Worth a feat? Maybe, depends on how much of a dick about night encounters your DM is. (Mine just LOVES them to death.) The extra 10 HP from Diehard can be very important for surviving the lower levels or in a more "hardcore" game; for a fighter or ranger (both of whom effectively get to cheat on the feat chain) it may well be worth it.

So, in your low-magic world, you ought to be able to find a 1st level wizard who will cast Identify for 110gp

Er... in a low-magic world the spell is almost guaranteed to cost you more than that by simple virtue of scarcity. Depending on how low "low" is 200g isn't out of the question, and possibly even more than that.
__________________
"In FFX, sarcasm makes your stats go up!"
"Just like in real life!"

[Mr Adventurer]

Er... in a low-magic world the spell is almost guaranteed to cost you more than that by simple virtue of scarcity. Depending on how low "low" is 200g isn't out of the question, and possibly even more than that.

On the flip side, nobody has any magic items they need identifying. Both supply and demand are low.

[Deep One]

Dude, Sense Motive is a really, really good skill. I would take it; so few classes have it on their lists and even fewer people actually take it.
... and for all my failures at common sense yesterday, I had marked it down for maxing out for the reasons you mentioned. :) But the GM told me plainly not to, but to buy into Knowledge and Appraise instead.

Not a bad selection. Make sure to take a look at the bard-only spells, when they crop up, as they can be really cool.
Spell selection will be quite difficult; unless player #3 chooses to play another spell caster, I am both the group's wizard and cleric as well as its face man.

From the SRD: So, in your low-magic world, you ought to be able to find a 1st level wizard who will cast Identify for 110gp.
Thank you for going through the effort of looking it up on my behalf. :) But as mentioned above, I doubt there will be spellcasters-for-hire in the game.

I'd like to point out that at higher levels Endurance lets you sleep in a suit of mithril full plate without penalty- that's nothing to sneeze at. Worth a feat? Maybe, depends on how much of a dick about night encounters your DM is. (Mine just LOVES them to death.) The extra 10 HP from Diehard can be very important for surviving the lower levels or in a more "hardcore" game; for a fighter or ranger (both of whom effectively get to cheat on the feat chain) it may well be worth it.
Does mithril plate count as medium armor somehow or is this a feat from another source? - In any case I'm limited to light armor and now that I can sleep in it without having Endurance I don't see much point in having this feat at all; which means I effectively sacrifice two feats just for Diehard and that is a bit steep concerning I don't intend to enter melee under my own free will - although, if I was a front line combatant I might consider it nevertheless.

Er... in a low-magic world the spell is almost guaranteed to cost you more than that by simple virtue of scarcity. Depending on how low "low" is 200g isn't out of the question, and possibly even more than that..
That's what I'm thinking, too.
__________________
"In FFX, sarcasm makes your stats go up!"
"Just like in real life!"[/QUOTE]

[RedFox]

... and for all my failures at common sense yesterday, I had marked it down for maxing out for the reasons you mentioned. :) But the GM told me plainly not to, but to buy into Knowledge and Appraise instead.

Did he say why? Because, Appraise is nigh unto fucking worthless and Sense Motive is one of the best skills in the entire game.

[Deep One]

On the flip side, nobody has any magic items they need identifying. Both supply and demand are low.

:D

All the more reason to let the occasional poor sucker bleed when he shows up at your wizard tower's doorstep. After all, when you are the only one with Identify in the whole province, what he's gonna do? :)

[Deep One]

Did he say why? Because, Appraise is nigh unto fucking worthless and Sense Motive is one of the best skills in the entire game.

He didn't. Probably he isn't aware that the main function of Sense Motive is to detect lies. And I don't care much for that boring Appraise myself, so I will ask for clarification about that, too.

I wonder if I will find the time to actually do some *work* in the office tomorrow, it's going to be a long email for sure.

[AusJeb]

Immediately I threw caution and all pretense at powergaming and efficiency overboard and decided to play a bard; having been madly in love with the 3.5 bard ever since I first opened the PHB, I simply had to jump at the chance.

. . .

As feats I chose Endurance and Diehard despite the many valid points you made against that choice. Edited to add that you were right, these feats are not worth it. Fortunately I will probably allowed to change them.

. . .

(Skill/Skill points put into it/Total bonus)

Perform 4, +8
Diplomacy 4, +8
Gather Information 2, +6 (yes, now I wonder, too, for taking 10 against the typical DC of 15, one point would have been enough)
Listen 1, +1 (as a bard, I figured I should show a miniumum of goodwill at least )
Use Magic Device 4, +8
Appraise 3, +5
Decipher Script 4, +6
Disguise 3, +7
Knowledge: Monsters 4, +6
Knowledge: Races 3, +5
Knowledge: History 4, +6

(In case you are wondering, I wrote down the skills in the order they have on my German character sheet.) - Yes, that's right. No Move Silently, no Hide, not a single point to Ride or Swim either. But I don't see how I could have done things any different. Maxed Perform is a given. Decipher Script and Use Magic Device have unholy high DCs so I had to max them as well. Same with Knowledge: Monsters and Diplomacy. I need five ranks in Knwledge: History for the +2 synergy bonus to Bardic Knowledge and three ranks in Appraise and Knowledge: Races in order to be able to Take Ten against the usual DC of 15. I might scrape one point from Gather Information and it can be argued if Disguise is important at all. The one point in Listen is more a character issue, I admit.

As for 0-level spells I took Daze, Mage Hand, Detect Magic and Read Magic.

Congratulations. I am a big fan of bards. I am currently playing a Bard 4/Fighter 2 (more on this later).

Glad to see that you have changed your mind on the feats. My favorites are Improved Initiative and Dodge. Weapon Focus is also good. Dodge is good for the defense and for leading into Mobility and Spring Attack. Point Blank Shot is good if you plan on using a lot of missile weapons.

Glad to see that you are thinking about skill synergies. They will be incredibly useful. Hide and Move Silently are key skills, though, that every character should have. Also, you should think about Bluff, Sense Motive, and Tumble. As you point out, Decipher Script and Use Magic Device have really high DCs. Consequently, there is no need to put points into these skills until later when you can buy them up quickly using most of your skill points per level. What is your Perform specialty?

Now for my multiclassing comment. I have long thought that Bard/Fighter would be a great combo, and it is turning out to be fun to play. Now, I had the advantage of starting out at 4th level (First character started at 3d then died). So, I didn't have to make the hard decision about forgoing spell abilities during play. I have faced that before, and it is a tough decision. However, after you get Bard 2 and have access to 1st level spells (i.e. Cure Light Wounds), I really recommend that you consider taking two levels of fighter.

First, in combat as a hybrid class, a bard will always be secondary to fighters and spellcasters and won't have the cool +d6 backstab of rogues (but they can tumble). But, my experience has been that bards almost always need to act as off-tanks to protect the casters and catch flankers. Now, you can do this and just progress as a bard. But, with two levels of fighter you get +2 BAB, 2 feats, better Fortitude saves, and potentially better hit points. The benefits are definitely worth the delay in spells and skill points. Alternatively, you could enhance your role with two levels of rogue (Evasion, backstab) or ranger (BAB, Two Weapon Fighting).

YMMV But the two levels of fighter have greatly improved my character's combat effectiveness and survivability.

Sleep is about the *worst* spell you can take as a first level mage. "Wha?" you say? "Wak is MAD!" you say! But, here's the kicker. Everyone's so used to teh spell from the 70's version that they never look at the modern one. Go ahead and grab your book.

I agree completely. Sleep has been needlessly nerfed. Consequently, one of the most prevelant spells in the fantasy genre largely goes unused. The silly thing is that all Sleep needs is the ability to affect more characters at higher caster levels. There is no need to have a level limitation on Sleep. The increased Will saves at higher levels will diminish its effectiveness over time.

[AbusePuppy]

.Does mithril plate count as medium armor somehow or is this a feat from another source?
All mithril armor counts as one category lighter (to a minimum of light). Wizards has confirmed that this allows you to sleep in plate via the Endurance feat.

Bards are cool, if somewhat bad, but I can never resist the temptation to multiclass into Bardbarian. Although if I'd gotten scores like you had I'd have been all over some sexy monk action instead. (You can always play him humble to make up for excessive goodness.)
__________________
"CLAMP is its own fangirls!"
"Isn't it great?"
"It's like if we made manga. I mean, there'd be some of us trying to be all deep, and then there'd be angst, and then there'd be me going, 'HEY! LET'S GET SOME MORE GAY IN HERE!'"

[Juriel]

Yeah, with those scores I, too, would have been a monk faster than a fast thing.
A...Monk Sorcerer! Put that Spider Climb to use as do your katas in the ceiling!

[Wakshaani]

Here's another, just sorta flopping around in the ol' brain pan... in this case, a Dwarven Berserker, aka "The Old War Boar"

Str 14
Dex 10
Con 17
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 11

Feats: Weapon Focus: Dwarven Waraxe
Skill Points at 1st level: 12

Chain Shirt, Large Shield, Dwarven Waraxe, Lt Crossbow

A pretty basic build, focused on Con, Con, and more Con, an old boar who just refuses to stay down, rather than the bulging muscle Human barbarian. He rages for, like, ever. :)

[allenrmaher]

Hmm... my favorite starting characters are usually from the DMG not the PHB. I like the arristocrat, expert, warrior. I get a kick out of non standard classes and zero level adventures, always kicks off a campaign in style. I do tweak the DMG ones ever so slightly and use the elite array.

[Wookie]

For a bard I'd definitely want to max out bluff and disguise just so I could walk up to an enemy camp and use fascinate or my other bardic abilities on them without them knowing it.

I'd also be tempted to pursue two different perform skills, one for the lute (I think) which has bonuses on fascinating and has the most magical bard items available for it, and one skill for using a horn because it apparently gives you a handy bonus to the attack, damage, and save bonus from inspire courage.

[Grantanz]

I saw some discussion once about the effective ECL of higher ability scores compared to the base 15/14/13/12/10/8 - what would the 17/15/15/15/12/12 array be worth? That's 45 points, if my mental arithmetic is correct. (Also, wow, nice rolling :) )

[Wade L]

He didn't. Probably he isn't aware that the main function of Sense Motive is to detect lies. And I don't care much for that boring Appraise myself, so I will ask for clarification about that, too.


I know many GMs are quite well aware that sense Motive is mostly used to detect lies - and they don't like it. So, quite simply, they don't really use the functionality - at a bare minimum, they'll roll in secret against a secret DC and say "Hrm, he's acting a bit shifty...but is that because he's lying, or because he's nervous?" or "He seems very confident of what he's saying...but maybe that's just because he's an experienced lier?" which is essentially a way of saying "I'm not going to use a mechanic to let you figure that out. Rely on the roleplaying."

Now, that's sort of prickish if the GM does it without warning - you max out your Sense Motive, and then they do everything they can to not have it function at what you want it to do. But if they warn you in advance that they don't give Sense Motive much utility, then all is fair, IMHO.

Who knows, he might have a completely different reason for advising against it...but that's a common one. Doesn't matter how good the write-up in the book is if the GM doesn't use it that way in his game.

[RedFox]

I saw some discussion once about the effective ECL of higher ability scores compared to the base 15/14/13/12/10/8 - what would the 17/15/15/15/12/12 array be worth? That's 45 points, if my mental arithmetic is correct. (Also, wow, nice rolling :) )

The standard array I give out is 17/16/15/14/12/10. I don't know how much that's worth. Probably a lot. ;)

[Wakshaani]

The standard array I give out is 17/16/15/14/12/10. I don't know how much that's worth. Probably a lot. ;)

Well, the default array for an NPC nets +0. For a PC, it nets +5. An NPC is CR -1, a PC is CR +0. The presented array would thus be either +1 or +2... probably a +2.

In reverse order, you would lower teh CR of anything faced by a party who all had teh Uber Array as presented above, so, a CR 2 critter would be a 1/2, a CR 4 would be a CR 2, and so on.

Power comes at a price. :)

[Wakshaani]

Oh, and while I'm here, let me sing teh praises of the mighty crossbow.

Oh lovely Light Crossbow, how you rocketh. Nigh unto every class can use you, and use you well, for at least five levels. At six, the fighters and rangers leave you for the shortbow, but, it's not until double-digits before the others spurn your ease of use.

In essence, every single party member should take a light crossbow and ten bolts, aside from the dedicated archer (if any), who should take twenty. This allows everyone to shoot if needed and, by having the same ammo type, you can toss yoru weapon to a teammate, knowing full well that they can use it. Alchemical heads are easy to come by, giving you the opening for silver or iron-shod attacks, and Magic Weapon can *really* spread the love around. It's also cheaper, and lighter, than a bow.

Everyone, and I do mean everyone, should pack a light crossbow until level 10.

[Silent Wayfarer]

As a mage, cast sleep spells. Coup de grace with a scythe.

[wingedcoyote]

Oh, and while I'm here, let me sing teh praises of the mighty crossbow.

Oh lovely Light Crossbow, how you rocketh. Nigh unto every class can use you, and use you well, for at least five levels. At six, the fighters and rangers leave you for the shortbow, but, it's not until double-digits before the others spurn your ease of use.

In essence, every single party member should take a light crossbow and ten bolts, aside from the dedicated archer (if any), who should take twenty. This allows everyone to shoot if needed and, by having the same ammo type, you can toss yoru weapon to a teammate, knowing full well that they can use it. Alchemical heads are easy to come by, giving you the opening for silver or iron-shod attacks, and Magic Weapon can *really* spread the love around. It's also cheaper, and lighter, than a bow.

Everyone, and I do mean everyone, should pack a light crossbow until level 10.

Okay, humor a newbie. Other than cost and weight, what makes a crossbow better than a regular bow for low-level characters?

[Fade]

Okay, humor a newbie. Other than cost and weight, what makes a crossbow better than a regular bow for low-level characters?
It's a Simple weapon that does d8 damage. Bows are Martial, and slings suck.

[Silent Wayfarer]

Also, your accuracy will suck enough that you WILL have to fire it within 30 feet to connect reliably, and once that happens, the monster will be in your face if it is not dead. Running comes highly recommended.

[RedFox]

In reverse order, you would lower teh CR of anything faced by a party who all had teh Uber Array as presented above, so, a CR 2 critter would be a 1/2, a CR 4 would be a CR 2, and so on.

Power comes at a price. :)

Pft. No way I'd adjust CR.

[Wakshaani]

Okay, humor a newbie. Other than cost and weight, what makes a crossbow better than a regular bow for low-level characters?

It's a Simple weapon that does d8 damage. Bows are Martial, and slings suck.

There you go.

Toss your light crossbow to the mage and shout, "Cover me!", and he'll go "Craaaaaap," take cover, and start shooting.

Toss yoru short bow to the mage and shout, "Cover me!", and he'll go, "I don't know nuthin' 'bout shootin' no twangers!" and you may well suffer friendly fire.

The Wizard can use it, the Sorcerer can use it, heck, the *Monk* can use it. The Druid's the only one left out of Light Crossbow goodness, so, the whole party can share ammo if someone's running low of bolts. This, again, plays huge when you face something that needs a magic weapon to hit. Normally, you enchant the fighter's sword and hope it doesn't stay away from him, but, you can instead boost a quiver full of bolts, then plink it with the whole party. Way handy.

Pft. No way I'd adjust CR.

Adjusting CR is the proper thing, since a bunch of critters isn't as much of a challenge when faced with a party that powerful. All the creatures in the Manuals are given a CR compared to how they'd fare against the typical characters straight out of the DMG. Those use the standard "Elite" array and standard money levels. If you adjust either the money the party has or their stats, then the CR should adjust appropriately. A stingy DM should raise the CR of some, if not most, encounters, since the party doesn't have the 'Proper' level of loot (For example, critters only hurt by magic weapons when you're a sixth level group with only a +1 dagger between you) and lower the CR if they're stinking rich. (Ex: A third level group who all have +4 stat items and +3 weapons)

If anyone has a better answer, tho, I've got ears.

[MonsterMash]

Human Cleric
Str14 Dex 10 Con 13 Int 8 Wis 15 Cha 13
Feats: Endurance Diehard
Domains: Pick a got which nets any 2 Strength, War, Magic, Luck, Travel, Destruction, Protection
Skills: Concentration 4 Any other class skill 4

Why this is the Greatest:

Put bluntly its solid in fight thanks to armour and some ok weapons (longspear, morning star & shield along with some javlins are more than enough to get though low level) , casts spells (not just healing ones, also buff and some single target nasties) and everyone loves being healed. Also cleric is the most powerful class in the game.

I like playing clerics, but I'd have used slightly different domains and feats. Given that the clerics one bad point is how few feats it gets I'd go for two from Improved Init, Blindfight (much underrated feat), Scribe Scroll (very useful to have lots of CLW scrolls) or Improved Turning.

Domains, don't forget Healing an extra +1 to the DRM can make a lot of difference in the first few levels. Fire has some offensive spells which can be useful.

[Wakshaani]

While I'm here, here's one fo my fave Wizards.

Human Wizard 1

Str 10
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 15
Wis 8
Cha 13

HP 8
AC 14 (12 touch)

Feats: Deft Hands and Toughness

Skills: Concentration +1, Craft: Alchemy +6, Decipher Script +6, Knowledge: Arcana +4, Knowledge: The Planes +4, Sleight of Hand +5, Spellcraft +6, Use Rope +5

(0 points in Concentration, 2 each into Sleight and Use Rope, cross-class, 2 each in the Knowledges, 4 in the rest)

Specialized in Conjuration (The purest magic!) with opposition of Necromancy and Enchantment (Banned in all right-thinking nations!)

Armed with Club (!), Light Crossbow, and leather armor at 1st level, plus holds teh light (Which is why club instead of staff). At 5th level, switches to a proper Robe, plus a staff (But keeps the crossbow, natch)


Tall and weedy, he's your traditional "Absent-minded professor" sort, filled with booksmarts but helpless in "Common Sense" situations and quite gulable/trusting. He's got a certain nerdy charm to him, tho, and usually has a group of friends where he gets to be "Teh geeky one", but is still part of the social circle. He's not exactly a wimp, since his master's had him doing all the grunt work as an apprentice, sweeping floors, moving chests, and so on. Not *strapping*, but he's more athletic than people give him credit for. In particular, he grew up fascinated with basic magic tricks and sleight of hand, and these nimble fingers have served him well once he graduated to real magic.

(You can replace Deft Hands with Improved Counterspell for a more powerful, but less colorful, character. If you do, remove Sleight of Hand and Use Rope from teh skills and add +2 to his Knowledges instead.)

If you stick with teh three basic books, you should pick up Skill Focus: Knowledge: The Planes at 3rd level, Create Wand at 5th level, and Craft Wonderous Item at 6th, prepping you for Loremaster at 8th level.

Works pretty smooth. Note that you'll wind up juggling skill points around each level, and will likely pick up a few more craft skills (of all things!) to help your Conjuration spells. Withe Scribe Scroll and Create Wand, you'll have a huge spell arsenal, while Craft Wonderous Item lets you fill up on a few important items that you might need but haven't found, or generate small expendable items, like Dusts.

There're more powerful builds, but, this one has a built in story (Nerdy guy makes good) and is fairly versitile, showing off a neat good-aligned Wizard instead of teh classic "schemng for ULTIMATE power!" type.

Overall, a really fun build, good at both RP and gameplay.

[MonsterMash]

Toughness always a useful feat for low level Wizards and Sorcerors. Wak I like your cleric build a little way back as I've got a similar one in play that I've taken from level 1 to level 8 now.

[RedFox]

Adjusting CR is the proper thing, since a bunch of critters isn't as much of a challenge when faced with a party that powerful. All the creatures in the Manuals are given a CR compared to how they'd fare against the typical characters straight out of the DMG. Those use the standard "Elite" array and standard money levels. If you adjust either the money the party has or their stats, then the CR should adjust appropriately. A stingy DM should raise the CR of some, if not most, encounters, since the party doesn't have the 'Proper' level of loot (For example, critters only hurt by magic weapons when you're a sixth level group with only a +1 dagger between you) and lower the CR if they're stinking rich. (Ex: A third level group who all have +4 stat items and +3 weapons)

Yeah, thing is I don't care. The whole point is making the party feel more powerful, therefore...

If anyone has a better answer, tho, I've got ears.

My solution is to just run it as if everyone had "miraculously rolled" up those stats and not adjust CR or anything else to compensate. Works fine so far.

Hell, mrlost simply gives everyone all 16's. ;)

[Chiaroscuro]

Wak, why so much CHA for all of these builds? Most optimization strategies drop it as a dump stat. Even for cleric I'd dump stat CHA unless it was an undead-heavy campaign. I'm certainly suprised to see wizards and barbarians(!) valuing it so highly.

-C.

[Juriel]

I thought it was obvious which builds were for flavor, not for any sort of power...

[Wakshaani]

Wak, why so much CHA for all of these builds? Most optimization strategies drop it as a dump stat. Even for cleric I'd dump stat CHA unless it was an undead-heavy campaign. I'm certainly suprised to see wizards and barbarians(!) valuing it so highly.

-C.

I hear people do that a lot and, man, I wodner fi they ever *play* in their games.

Seriously, I have trouble playing anybody with a Charisma of 10, let alone less. There's peasants to win over! Local lords to impress! Orcs to bluff! You should be using teh heck out of Charisma.

Take, for example, our Conjuring friend. It's one thing to summon a monster and make it kill stuff but, later on, you have to HAGGLE with these things. If you can work some words, you get get lesser celestials to pitch in, work for cheap, even pass along a good word upstairs for you. If you're calling up stuff a little more ... dark ... then you'd better have some oomph in your voice to give commands, because, well, demons don't respond well to a nebbish kinda mumbling, "if, you know, you could, i dunno, maybe go eat that guy or ... something?" ... Well, it ends poorly.

For a Barbarian, you get to be rude and crude, sure, but there's something to be said for animal magetism, teaching teh princess to throw off the shackles of society, let her hair free, and go riding into teh night with you, or to assemble a crowd of half-drunk berserkers to follow you against teh Ogre band to teh west. Rogues have flimflam, Fighters lead, and Clerics have to sooth townsfolk, win converts to teh faith, and turn undead as well.

Charisma, man. Don't leave home without it.

[Juriel]

Charisma, man. Don't leave home without it.
Or alternatively, pick a stat that does something worthwhile, and just up your ranks in Persuade, Haggle, whatever you want to accomplish. The difference between -1 Cha and +3 Cha is nothing when you have 15 skill ranks in the thing.

Which is one of the reasons why I think DnD going for skills wasn't a good idea - when Charisma was the only thing determining how good you were in social functions, it served a purpose. Now it's just pretty useless, unless you're one of the poor classes whose powers rely on it, instead of something inherently useful, like Int.

Hi, Sorcs. You're so cool, but those Wizards sure kick your ass like that.

[RedFox]

...or alternatively, pick a stat that does something worthwhile, and just up your ranks in Persuade, Haggle, whatever you want to accomplish. The difference between -1 Cha and +3 Cha is nothing when you have 15 skill ranks in the thing.

This is true of most any Attribute that you want just for skills. Which is to say, mainly just CHA (because it doesn't have a Saving Throw mod).

[mrlost]

This is true of most any Attribute that you want just for skills. Which is to say, mainly just CHA (because it doesn't have a Saving Throw mod).

Intelligence, Charisma, or Strength for non-fighter types.

[RedFox]

Intelligence, Charisma, or Strength for non-fighter types.

Strength and Intelligence have secondary values, in that they affect things like encumbrance and skill points.

Charisma is the only thing that totally does not affect anything else except skill mods, unless you have a specific use for it (such as a class feature or spell that goes off CHA).

[Mengtzu]

Charisma is the only thing that totally does not affect anything else except skill mods, unless you have a specific use for it (such as a class feature or spell that goes off CHA).

I'm of the opinion that a lot of the class features for CHA are *really* good, however. And the general uselessness of the stat outside of those features is probably why.

[RedFox]

I'm of the opinion that a lot of the class features for CHA are *really* good, however. And the general uselessness of the stat outside of those features is probably why.

You may well be right. It's an odd way to factor things, but I wouldn't be surprised.

[Wakshaani]

Here's another one that'll make most people go, "Buh?! YOU CAN'T USE CON AS A DUMP STAT!"

And yet I did.

Human Rogue 1

Str 10
Dex 15
Con 8
Int 13
Wis 14
Cha 12

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Stealthy

Skills: 40(!) skill points at first level, season to taste.

Leather Armor, Short Sword, Dagger, lt Crossbow and 10 bolts

3rd level sees Weapon Finese and 6th adds Weapon Expertise.

The advance scout and two-weapon flanking-sneaker, this one's not much in a fight by himself, but, with a partner, he's dangerous. He'll usually fight defensively, or go Full Defensive, until he and a partner can move into flanking positions ... at that time, his -2/-2 for two weapon attacks is canceled by teh +2 bonus for Flanking, but, he gets sneak attack damage on each attack.

Snicker-Snack indeed.

Usually, this means that he teams up with the Cleric while the Fighter handles things on his own and the Wizard and Bard hang back and do ranged stuff.

Aside from this, he's a skill machine, with a high Wisdom giving him bonuses for spot checks and Sense Motive, Charisma for con jobs (to help the Bard), while Dex and Int fuel lots of things. The high Wisdom helps with Will saves, traditionally the weakest part of any Rogue, and sets up possible multiclass opportunities down the road. (Cleric of the God of Theives) ... surprisingly handy, that!

From a roleplaying side, he gets to be small and a bit thin, but, hey, that helps him fit into tight spaces, so, a winner. He's smart, but VERY streetwise and trusts his gut more than he does book learnin'. ... but he also knows the value of a smart guy. Sharp ears, keen ears, and knows to keep himself out of trouble, a rare talent in a rogue. He could have a bright future as a guildmaster, one of the few that can figure out the intracacies of Guild life and, in fact, excell at them. In the group, he gets the scoutnig job, and is the voice of cunning sense, but is often overruled. In some groups, he might even be the leader! He's good at the job, but doesn't want the attention ... he has to strike quickly and effectively, since he can't handle much of a counter assault. He's best when not fighting, and would rather the group do the same. Fighting gets you killed.

[Mengtzu]

Here's another one that'll make most people go, "Buh?! YOU CAN'T USE CON AS A DUMP STAT!"



I'm currently dumping on Con with my crazy Kharmic Strike based Fighter/Swashbuckler. He's in IK, so he gets cheap DR, and I figure if he dies I'll have fun making the next character along ^_^

[Sleeper]

Here's another one that'll make most people go, "Buh?! YOU CAN'T USE CON AS A DUMP STAT!"

That's one of the great things about low-level Dnd. Even if your character is destined to die the first time he walks up to a monster and lets it get a full attack, it doesn't really matter as long as you have fun playing that ever-so-brief span of days. After all, it's easy enough to roll up another.

-Pat

[Wakshaani]

That's one of the great things about low-level Dnd. Even if your character is destined to die the first time he walks up to a monster and lets it get a full attack, it doesn't really matter as long as you have fun playing that ever-so-brief span of days. After all, it's easy enough to roll up another.

-Pat

He's not, really. With a 14 AC at first level, 15 at second (Masterwork Studded Leather, oh how I love thee) and 16 at 4th (16 Dex, rah), he's one of the harder-to-hit members of the group. Add in Defensive for +2 AC (+3 after 1st level) or full defensive for +4 (+6 at 2nd level plus), and he's a jukin' and jivin' machine. 10 hps ain't much, but, by then, he can make with quality stabbity ... best defense is a good offense and all that. :)

[Kintara]

Here's another one that'll make most people go, "Buh?! YOU CAN'T USE CON AS A DUMP STAT!"

And yet I did.

Human Rogue 1

Str 10
Dex 15
Con 8
Int 13
Wis 14
Cha 12
Personally, I'd switch the Wis and Int around. You want Int to be good right off the bat because otherwise you miss out on those skill points (even if you put points in later on), and Rogues can always use skill points.

And it doesn't change that much about the character, really.

[Artisan]

Human Cleric 1

Str 8
Dex 12
Con 10
Int 13
Wis 15
Cha 14

Flaws: Shaky (-2 to all Ranged attacks), Noncombatant (-2 to all Melee attacks)

Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Vow of Nonviolence, Vow of Peace

Go D&D Gandhi!

[Chiaroscuro]

I thought it was obvious which builds were for flavor, not for any sort of power...

For some reason I thought it was an optimization thread. :o

The absentminded professor is really agile. The dwarven barbarian just about average in both INT and CHA, not exactly Emily Post--but then, if they're almost the same it doesn't make a ton of RP difference. I mean, they look like fun characters to play, not doubt.

I hear people do that a lot and, man, I wodner fi they ever *play* in their games.

Seriously, I have trouble playing anybody with a Charisma of 10, let alone less. There's peasants to win over! Local lords to impress! Orcs to bluff! You should be using teh heck out of Charisma.

I can see a lot of good characters with Charisma, no doubt. But in play, my expience is that social skills work out in one of two ways:

1) Social rolls are made by the designated face-man. Someone with good CHA and social skills as class skills (Bard, Rogue, Cleric, Paladin). It doesn't matter that the fighter can't compose a sonnet and the wizard has as much force of personality as the stapler guy from Office Space, because their skills never come up.

2) Social rolls are largely ignored. This can be good or bad, depending on if PCs actually invest in social stuff, but these DMs have the NPCs react how they'd like for story or RP reasons without a lot of attention to stats. Sometimes your Diplomacy monster can't win over the king anyway, and sometimes you can negotiate with the dragon even though you have a mere +1 bonus on the roll. (Cue argument about railroading, argument about rollpaying vs roleplaying. Then back to the thread at hand.)

But please, keep the builds coming. I'm intrigued.

[Sleeper]

He's not, really. With a 14 AC at first level, 15 at second (Masterwork Studded Leather, oh how I love thee) and 16 at 4th (16 Dex, rah), he's one of the harder-to-hit members of the group. Add in Defensive for +2 AC (+3 after 1st level) or full defensive for +4 (+6 at 2nd level plus), and he's a jukin' and jivin' machine. 10 hps ain't much, but, by then, he can make with quality stabbity ... best defense is a good offense and all that. :)
Until 4th level an NPC barbarian (from the 3.0 DMG... its still valid in 3.5) has an equal AC... when raging. The cleric ranges from AC 2 to 4 points higher, the fighter is up to 5 points higher. And all of them have 2 to 3 times as many hit points.

Tactically, the build is designed to exploit your rogue's greatest weakness, not one of his strengths. Using two-weapon fighting requires a full attack, and getting a full attack means monsters will have a chance to full attack him. A CR 2 black bear that gets a single full attack against your rogue at L2 will average more damage than he has hit points (2*0.60*6.5+0.35*5.5=9.725 vs 6-1+(1+1+2+3+4+5)/6=7.67), and a CR 4 brown bear's average damage against your level L4 rogue is more than twice his expected hit points (2*0.80*12.5+0.55*11=26.05 vs 6-1+(1+1+2+3+4+5)/6*3=13), and that's including miss chances and ignoring criticals.

I like sub-optimal builds, but it's good to avoid unrealistic expectations, too.

-Pat

[Chiaroscuro]

Until 4th level an NPC barbarian (from the 3.0 DMG... its still valid in 3.5) has an equal AC... when raging. The cleric ranges from AC 2 to 4 points higher, the fighter is up to 5 points higher. And all of them have 2 to 3 times as many hit points.

Tactically, the build is designed to exploit your rogue's greatest weakness, not one of his strengths. Using two-weapon fighting requires a full attack, and getting a full attack means monsters will have a chance to full attack him. A CR 2 black bear that gets a single full attack against your rogue at L2 will average more damage than he has hit points (2*0.60*6.5+0.35*5.5=9.725 vs 6-1+(1+1+2+3+4+5)/6=7.67), and a CR 4 brown bear's average damage against your level L4 rogue is more than twice his expected hit points (2*0.80*12.5+0.55*11=26.05 vs 6-1+(1+1+2+3+4+5)/6*3=13), and that's including miss chances and ignoring criticals.

I like sub-optimal builds, but it's good to avoid unrealistic expectations, too.

-Pat
That was my thought, too. This guy could fairly well stay in-concept by going for Spring attack by 3rd level, too, since he's intended as a scout and smart guy, I can see him making quick strikes and fleeing before the foe could respond. Let the big dumb warrior soak up the bear's claws. Might make for a good multiclass with Scout.

Normally you can get out of AoOs through tumble, but Spring Attack is needed for the hit-and-run attacker.

[Kintara]

That was my thought, too. This guy could fairly well stay in-concept by going for Spring attack by 3rd level, too, since he's intended as a scout and smart guy, I can see him making quick strikes and fleeing before the foe could respond. Let the big dumb warrior soak up the bear's claws. Might make for a good multiclass with Scout.

Normally you can get out of AoOs through tumble, but Spring Attack is needed for the hit-and-run attacker.Spring Attack was my thought as well. It also frees up a hand for a buckler.

[RedFox]

I'm having a lot of fun with a Rogue with Skill Mastery (Tumble) right now. Especially since I bought the skill up to such insane levels that I can tumble at full speed through threatened areas about three or four times before I actually would have to roll anything. :D

[Sleeper]

A level of barbarian is hard to pass up for a spring attacking rogue. The increased speed helps you tumble even further around the battlefield and you only have to be a little faster than someone else to escape. The weapon proficiencies open up the world of reach weapons, and the armor proficiencies mean you don't take a penalty to hit using a buckler or light shield until you can afford masterwork, let you ultimately use a heavy mithral shield without penalty, and even let you tumble around in mithral full plate with only a -3 armor check penalty if you really need to. Rage is primarily defensive, giving you a hit point boost against spells and missiles, but the extra strength also helps your attack roll until you can afford Weapon Finesse. And take the barbarian level first. While losing 16 skill points is painful, if you're starting out behind the 6 extra hit points may be just what you need to survive.

And max out search if you want, but don't bother putting any points in disable device. If you find a trap, well, let the barbarian get some use out of their trap sense. And even if you don't, let the barbarian open the door, just in case.

[Wakshaani]

Here's an old fave ... the Half-Orc Bounty Hunter. She's not evil, she's not particularly woodsy, she just tracks down lawbreakers and drags them back to jail. At soem point, she joins an adventuring band ... maybe the allure of skiptracing ain't what it was, maybe teh System failed her, or maybe she'd gotten one too many cracks about being a halfbreed. Whatever it was, she's handy to have around.

Lawful Good Half-Orc Ranger 1

Str 12 (10 + 2)
Dex 13
Con 12
Int 13 (15 - 2)
Wis 14
Cha 6 (8 - 2)

Favored Enemy: Humanoids (Human)

AC: 15 (Chain shirt +4, Dex +1)
HP: 9

Feats: Tracking, Weapon Focus: Orc Double-Axe

Orc Double-Axe, Hand Axe, Dagger, Lt Crossbow and ten bolts, net

Note that Favored Enemy will give you a bonus on a LOT of skill rolls, to track, and deal with, humans. The roleplay hook isn't that she hates them (Tho it coudl easily go that way!) so much as that she's had so much training going after them that she knows what's what. Toss on a frayed coat, a low-slung hat, and give her some harmonica-played theme music for best effect.

[Chiaroscuro]

That was my thought, too. This guy could fairly well stay in-concept by going for Spring attack by 3rd level, too, since he's intended as a scout and smart guy, I can see him making quick strikes and fleeing before the foe could respond. Let the big dumb warrior soak up the bear's claws. Might make for a good multiclass with Scout.

Normally you can get out of AoOs through tumble, but Spring Attack is needed for the hit-and-run attacker.
Sorry, Spring Attack requires BAB +4, so no having it by third level. A straight rogue will pick it up at 6th, at the earliest.

[Mr Adventurer]

Here's an old fave ... the Half-Orc Bounty Hunter.

Feats: Tracking, Weapon Focus: Orc Double-Axe

Orc Double-Axe

Half-Orcs aren't proficient (or familiar) with the Double Axe by default, so you'll have to take Proficiency instead of Focus.

[Srathnal]

OK...I'm getting into this a little late, but here's my pick (I'll show both stats listed, the basic stats and the very nice roll DO made):

Human Sorcerer.
or
S- 13 15
D- 12 15
C- 14 15
I - 10 12
W - 8 12
Ch - 15 17

hp: 5 (on average...or 6 if you take max 1st hit die)

Feats: Improved Init, Still Spell

Spells:
lvl0: mage hand, disrupt undead, detect magic, read magic, Prestidigitation
Lvl1: Summon Monster, Mage Armor and Shocking Grasp (or Magic Missile to taste)

Skills: Bluff - 2
Concentration - 4
Spellcraft - 4
Knowledge(arcana) - 2

Possesions: Leather Armor (the 10% chance of failure for +2 AC is worth it when you will be casting so often...as you get higher level look to mithral chain since it will give good ac at little cost to casting), Spear (or long spear)


As you progress in levels take up to 4 levels in Fighter (for the coveted weapn specialization, hit points and fort save)... then the rest in Sorcerer. Eventually you will have a hard casting, two handed sword wielding, lightly armored (still high AC having) answer to the question: what mage in his right mind would enchant a magical sword...

Or alternately, you can start out as a fighter taking all the high end feats and up front hit points ... which might be a stronger way to go...

S

[Wookie]

Half-Orcs aren't proficient (or familiar) with the Double Axe by default, so you'll have to take Proficiency instead of Focus. I think this was changed in 3.5. Half Orcs get to use orc dobule axes as martial weapons, its on page... *looks it up*... no wait I'm wrong. You're right Womblehunter.

Yeah I think this Orc should either take Exotic Weapon Proficiency or take Improved Weapon Familiarity (gives access to all weapons with your race name in them, like elf thinblades or orc double axes) from the Complete Warrior.

[Wookie]

OK...I'm getting into this a little late, but here's my pick (I'll show both stats listed, the basic stats and the very nice roll DO made) ...

Thats a decent character but why not just play a War mage (Complete Arcane), Battle Sorcerer (Unearthed Arcana) or a Duskblade (PHB 2)? Those classes can get you what you apparently want in a character without using full round still spells and multiclassing for a BAB of just +12 at 20th level. The Battle Sorcerer especially may be what you want, it can cast in light armor, has spontaneous arcane magic, has a higher hit die, can cast even 9th level spells and will have a BAB of +15 at 20th level.

[Sleeper]

The MiniMongol: You were sickly and slow, even when you were only knee-high to a grasshopper. Children are cruel, and the tribal life is hard. Your father got in many fights, protecting you. But once you were old enough to sit in a saddle, it didn't seem to matter. Your arms were sturdy enough, and you could overcome that nagging cough long enough to draw and loose with deadly aim. Now you protect those who are weak, until they can find their strength. You are proud and refuse to let others see you hobble and gasp, so you never unmount around strangers.

Halfling barbarian. You need a lance, a bow, and a trained riding dog. Using the elite array, abilities are Str 12, Dex 17, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 13. Put 4 ranks into Handle Animal and Ride, and probably Survival. Take Mounted Combat at 1st level. After that you'll have to make some hard choices about whether to focus on charges or archery: Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, and Quick Draw or Mounted Archery, Point Blank Shot, and Precise Shot. Track is also attractive.

Riding dogs are Medium size, so they can easily go into a dungeon. Since your rage doesn't last long, use it selectively. Pepper enemies from a distance with arrows, and then rage and run them through with your lance once they're weakened. Even a small lance has a 10 foot reach, so it helps keep you safe. There's some debate about whether you can use a lance two handed to get the x1.5 Str mod while mounted, so check with your DM before buying a shield, or taking Power Attack.

Yes, loosely based on Tamerlane. This isn't a terribly powerful build, but it's useful and flexible. Taking 1 or 2 levels of fighter can help with the feat shortage (4, if you want specialization), but watch out for the XP penalty since neither class is favored (ranger 2 or 3/fighter 2 or 4/barbarian 2 or 3 and barbarian 3 or 4/fighter 4 are decent options before heading to a prestige class). The whirling dervish rage variant and the boar-totem barbarian (for longer rages) from Unearthed Arcana, the wild cohort feat from the WotC website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), and that halfing subrace with a bonus feat are attractive non-core options.

-Pat

[3rd Level Fighter]

The MiniMongol:Halfling barbarian. You need a lance, a bow, and a trained riding dog. Using the elite array, abilities are Str 12, Dex 17, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 13. Put 4 ranks into Handle Animal and Ride, and probably Survival. Take Mounted Combat at 1st level. After that you'll have to make some hard choices about whether to focus on charges or archery: Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, and Quick Draw or Mounted Archery, Point Blank Shot, and Precise Shot. Track is also attractive.
Works well with a sling...

[Wakshaani]

I think this was changed in 3.5. Half Orcs get to use orc dobule axes as martial weapons, its on page... *looks it up*... no wait I'm wrong. You're right Womblehunter.

Yeah I think this Orc should either take Exotic Weapon Proficiency or take Improved Weapon Familiarity (gives access to all weapons with your race name in them, like elf thinblades or orc double axes) from the Complete Warrior.

My bad on that one, yeah. It's kicked around as a common boost to the poor beleaguered half-orc, but, I forgot it wasn't official.

D'oh!

So convert that to 'Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Orc Double-Axe" and push the Weapon Focus to 3rd level. You're obviously picking the two-weapon style path from teh Ranger bonus feats, which winds up turning you into a pretty dang effective whirling dervish.

[Juriel]

So convert that to 'Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Orc Double-Axe" and push the Weapon Focus to 3rd level. You're obviously picking the two-weapon style path from teh Ranger bonus feats, which winds up turning you into a pretty dang effective whirling dervish.
...with no AC at all. Light armor + 13 Dex equals one pretty dead half-orc. And with 12 Str? They won't even hit anything before going down.

From the character viability angle.

[MonsterMash]

The MiniMongol:
Halfling barbarian. You need a lance, a bow, and a trained riding dog. Using the elite array, abilities are Str 12, Dex 17, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 13. Put 4 ranks into Handle Animal and Ride, and probably Survival. Take Mounted Combat at 1st level. After that you'll have to make some hard choices about whether to focus on charges or archery: Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, and Quick Draw or Mounted Archery, Point Blank Shot, and Precise Shot. Track is also attractive.


I think I prefer it as a fighter: Halfling Ftr1. Str 12, Dex 17, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 13. Skills: Handle Animal 4, Ride 4
Feats: Mounted Combat, Point Blank Shot
To hit with bow will be at +5 or +6 at up to 30 feet.

[Sleeper]

Darth Mole: Gnome barbarian. Str 12, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 13. Uses a gnome hooked hammer and wears light armor. Has Two-Weapon Fighting. Is intimidating, acrobatic, and alert: Intimidate 4, Jump 4, Listen 4.

Villain. All style, no substance. Wears dark flowing robes, wields a strangely vicious-looking two-headed weapon. Black and red tribal paint on his face. Terrible aura of angst and doom and gloom.

Uses the gnome racial spell-like abilities purely for cheap theatrics. Since spell-like abilities don't require any verbal or somantic components, he can trigger them with just a glare. He might use dancing lights to create a strobing effect as a glowing outline of a humanoid form follows just a footstep behind; or he might create four orbs of light and then do a flipping spin, slashing through each of them in a single bound. He might use ghost sound to cause an ominous sound to rise behind him as he approaches, or make a crackling sound as he glares. He can use presdigitation to make his face shadowy and his eyes luminous under his cowl.

The barbarian fast movement helps increase his jump distance. He never walks down steps if he can flip down them and land in a crouch.

As an NPC, I'm not terribly worried about optimizing him. But at higher levels, a couple levels of ranger work well in augmenting the mood. Free two-weapon fighting (and he can put that 15 Dex in Str... poor AC, but then bleeding can be badass), track and favored enemy turn him into a vengeful stalker, and endurance can make him relentless.

[Gambor]

If I were you, my choice would be a Lawful Neutral half-Elf Monk (my character). I am not giving you my stats, but half-elf is a safer choice to me. Humans get nothing too special, and Half-elves get a few advantages. Half-elves and humans incur NO penalty on stats, unlike the other races. But this is just my opinion.

Monks can do extraordinary things. But my monk can't do anything TOO special - he's still level one (I have no DM, only a Solo adventure that I played through and beat once. I don't believe in re-playing solo-adventures, it doesn't give me anything new).

EDIT : A Gnomish barbarian? What in the... nevermind. That is a little awkward...

[Wakshaani]

...with no AC at all. Light armor + 13 Dex equals one pretty dead half-orc. And with 12 Str? They won't even hit anything before going down.

From the character viability angle.

Think so? AC 15 to begin with, on par with pretty much everyone, with +2 on the attack roll (Or +0/+0 if using both ends).

By third level, will be at about +6 (+4/+4) on the attack, and the AC will likely slip up to a 16. Since attack is more than defense, it's still a viable warrior.

Note also that this character was done for interesting more than RAW POWER, but can hold her own with normal PCs.

[Fenris]

I guess i'd have to go with the ol Human Ranger...granted, this stat array is sort of twinked for the ability(ie, little thought, just something for the thread. :D)

AL: N


Str 14(+2) Dex 15(+2) Con 13(+1) Int 8(-1) Wis 12(+1) Cha 10(0)

HP: 9
AC: 12/15/17
Saves: Fort +3 Ref +4 Will +1
BaB: +1 Melee: +3 Ranged: +3
Initative: +6

Feats: Point Blank Shot(going Archer style), Improved Initative.(I like the high init with archer styles.), Tracking(Bonus)

Weapons: Longbow, longsword, handaxe, dagger, arrows.

Armor: Studded Leather, Lg. wooden shield(in the case going archer style, i think it would be good for the AC. A buckler can be used with a bow, but if youre in too close, i say its best to ditch the bow and go sword/board, due to rangers lighter armor.). +5 AC(total AC 15/17 with/wo shield)

Favored Enemy: Magical Beasts or Humanoids. Choose to taste. :D

The decent Strength still helps with archers with Mighty Composite bows; tho Dex is the main score youd want to increase of course. Also this build seems to be a compitent melee combatant when their primary cant be used. Once you choose the fighting style at level 2, the Rapid Shot feat is fantastic, and at level 3 you can tag on Precise Shot or Farshot...etc. Again, one might even swap Improved Init for Weapon Focus; Longbow for that extra +1 at the early levels.

Most stat increases could hit Dex, but i'd say one to Con might be nice for a handful of extra HP and better Fortitude saves.

Skill Points: 24(6x4)...6-1 Int+1 Human=...6. :D

Skills:
Hide 4
Move Silent 3
Tumble 2
Ride 2
Spot 2
Listen 2
Handle Animal 4
Climb 3
Jump 2

Gear: As see fit.

If you wanted more of a twinkout, you could swap Int for Cha, getting four more skill points but a minus to your animal handling skills. Which i suppose you could bump up with some more ranks. Idea i was going for wasn't a dumbass or anything, just the more 'street/wilderness smart' than 'booksmart'. But yes, it does take away from the skill points a bit..but luckily Rangers get a good amount.

[Rasmus Wagner]

Human Fighter. Str and Dex. Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Cleave. Sharp bit on a stick. The extra attacks just roll in.

[NotGazpacho]

This isn't a first level build, or a build at all, really,more of an idea, but it is fun.

First, make a sorceror. Get to third level, and make a familiar. It should be a bird.

Now, stack yourself full of touch spells. Shocking grasp works juuuust fine.

You familiar (the bird, the one that moves 60ft per turn, and has an AC of ridiculous because it's small, and crazy dexterous) can cast touch spells. You just sit a ways away while your new best friend shocks the crap out of the happless, hopefully metal-toting, cuz that's a +3 damage bonus, enemy.

Even better, if there's an attack on the run feat for birds, you can slip in and out of the range of a slow enemy every turn, while dealing quite a few points of damage.

You maintain full health, and don't even have to get within 50 ft of the enemy.

I tried this once or twice, and it killed. I think I used a hawk, but it might have been an owl.

[Mr Adventurer]

The familiar will provoke an AoO for entering the enemy space, though. Dangerous business, and time-consuming too.

[Eric Tolle]

Well, if the OP is playing a Bard, here's an idea for optimization.

Fiirst of all, see if you can change the race to half-elf.
It's a pity you can't take Nymph's kiss, but instead take Negotiator.
Now the skills are the most important thing: you missed some of the most important skills for a bard, namely the following:

Bluff 4
Diplomacy 4
Knowledge Nobility & Royalty 4
Sense Motive 4

Sure, that doesn't seem like so much now, but at second level? Put an additional point into all of those skils, and with your Charisma stat you end up with: Diplomacy 19.

This means you can turn Indifferent people to Helpful on an 11-, and even can change Hostile to Indifferent on a 6-, Friendly on a 16-. You will be the negotiator par Excellance. And this is why as the game continues you will buy things like Potions of Eagle's Splendor, a Cloak of Persuasion, an amulet of Diplomacy (+5 or +10 on Diplomacy checks). And of course don't forget to get a potion of Tongues, and maybe spend skill points on languages for common oppponents in the area.

You will be a Diplomacy MONSTER.

[Gloombunny]

The OP's game was two years ago, so even if he's still playing it I think he's long past the need for a first-level build.

[Wakshaani]

Or alternatively, pick a stat that does something worthwhile, and just up your ranks in Persuade, Haggle, whatever you want to accomplish. The difference between -1 Cha and +3 Cha is nothing when you have 15 skill ranks in the thing.

Which is one of the reasons why I think DnD going for skills wasn't a good idea - when Charisma was the only thing determining how good you were in social functions, it served a purpose. Now it's just pretty useless, unless you're one of the poor classes whose powers rely on it, instead of something inherently useful, like Int.

Hi, Sorcs. You're so cool, but those Wizards sure kick your ass like that.

*shrugs off zombie dust*

Well, since the trhead's back and all... :)

Teh reason for Wisdom, in that build, rather than int was overall skill effectivenes. At first level, +1 Int generates 4 skill points, enough to get +1 in Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, and something else. After that, it generates *1* skill point a level, leavnig three of teh four chosen skills in teh lurch.

The 14 Wisdom build gets the bonus on *all* of those skills, plus more, *and* generates an improved WIll save, famously the worst save for rogues.

Doe a lot of good.

As for Sorcerers?

Poor guys.

Not a fan of 'em at all. They need smoe major tweaking to keep up with a good wizard.

[Draco Nitewing]

Druid Lvl 4 (Human)

Str 13(+1) Dex 14(+2) Con 10(0) Int 12(+1) Wis 15(+2) Cha 8(-1)

Feats:
Martial Weapon Proficiency (Composite Longbow)
Two Weapon Fighting
Eschew Materials

Specials Abilities:
Animal Companion (Dire Bat)- Link, Share Spells, and Evasion
Nature Sense
Wild Empathy
Woodland Stride
Trackless Step
Resist Nature's Lure

Skills: Ranks Spells
Concentration 4 0-5
Diplomacy 3 1- 4
Handle Animal 4 2-3
Heal 4
Knowledge (Nature) 4
Listen 4
Ride 4
Spellcraft 4
Spot 4
Survival 4
Swim 3

BAB: +3

Weapons:
Composite Longbow +5
Scimatar +0
Scimatar Off- Hand +0

Armor:
Studded Leather +3 AC

[Gloombunny]

Teh reason for Wisdom, in that build, rather than int was overall skill effectivenes. At first level, +1 Int generates 4 skill points, enough to get +1 in Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, and something else. After that, it generates *1* skill point a level, leavnig three of teh four chosen skills in teh lurch.

The 14 Wisdom build gets the bonus on *all* of those skills, plus more, *and* generates an improved WIll save, famously the worst save for rogues.

Doe a lot of good.
But Int also boosts some skills, including Search and Disable Device which are often considered important for a rogue. And... it generates 1 skill point per level, which will outpace the advantage from a slightly higher attribute before long.

And you don't have to spend the 4 points at first level on 4 different skills... you can put them all in one skill and actually be good at something!

As for Sorcerers?

Poor guys.

Not a fan of 'em at all. They need smoe major tweaking to keep up with a good wizard.
Well, yeah, but "weakest of the full spellcasters" is still pretty damn good.