[necro] [D&D3.5] Class Hacking: The Swordsage

[Jon Chung]

Warblade Recovery Method: Spend a swift action, make an attack or simply spend a standard action, to recover all readied maneuvers.

Crusader Recovery Method: Readied maneuvers stream in semi-randomly, and replenish automatically when fully expended.

Swordsage Recovery Method: Spend a full round action to recover one readied maneuver.

Adaptive Style Feat: Reset all readied maneuvers as a full round action.

As you can see, the Swordsage is rather gimped here. I don't think it is powerful enough that a near-total lack of combat stamina is warranted, and the must-take nature of Adaptive Style offends my sense of game-mechanics aesthetics.

My first idea is to simply give Swordsages Adaptive Style as a bonus feat. However, I'm sure there's a better way. Suggestions, D&D fans?

[Brendan Falconer]

Given the huge range of manuevers available to the swordsage, we've not had any problems with his regeneration of attack options at all.

You can pretty much see the approach that was taken. With Swordsage you get more powers total, so lack of reuse isn't a big issue at all. At least it hasn't been in our games.

[Jon Chung]

Yeah, he has a lot of them, but really not enough to warrant rendering him essentially incapable of replenishing his repertoire in combat.

A 6th level Crusader has two stances, seven moves known and five endlessly regenerating moves readied. A 6th level Warblade has two stances, six moves known and four moves readied, recoverable with a simple swift-action/attack combo. A 6th level Swordsage has three stances, eleven moves known, but only six readied... which he cannot recover in combat.

The Swordsage's advantages - one or two more readied maneuvers, slightly wider maneuver selection and an extra stance - do not make up for the disadvantage of having a 3/4 BAB, a smaller Hit Die and being unable to recover.

[Brendan Falconer]

I'll agree that they don't have a huge advantage there, but versitility of moves is (to my mind at least) the reason for their limitations.

They are also skill monsters too, which always factors towards class balance.

Regardless, in play so far we've not had any problems with them at all.

I'll agree that the warblade seems to get the best deal, and all round they're my favourite new class since the incarnate came along. They get a lot of positives with no really noticeable negatives.

However, I don't think there's imbalance or that Swordsages really lose out. The moves they do get are quite noticeably potent, especially at later level where my concern is that they simply wipe the floor with every other kind of melee combatant full stop! Not that we've any worry of that at present in our game. Check the character optimization boards for crazy-arse and broken combos. The Swordsage wins there more often than not, hehe.

All in all, I don't think the smaller number of moves regenerated really factors. As mentioned, a 6th level 'sage has 6 moves. That's usually plenty enough to see him through the fight.

[Kurotowa]

A 6th level Crusader has two stances, seven moves known and five endlessly regenerating moves readied. A 6th level Warblade has two stances, six moves known and four moves readied, recoverable with a simple swift-action/attack combo. A 6th level Swordsage has three stances, eleven moves known, but only six readied... which he cannot recover in combat.

Technically correct, but highly misleading. At 6th level a Crusader has 7 maneuvers known, 5 maneuvers ready, and starts an encounter with a random 2 of those maneuvers available to use. Meanwhile a Warblade has 6 known and 4 readied, and the Swordsage 11 known and 6 readied.

So not only does the Swordsage have more maneuvers ready to use, they have a far wider selection and can take more specialized maneuvers. From combat to combat they can rotate their maneuvers to always have ones that are useful. A Warblade may find themself with only one or two maneuvers that are useful in an encounter, which is why it's easier for them to get those back. Swordsages take a bit more forethough, but are designed to be pulling out a different useful trick each turn.

[Fade]

Which supplement is this?

[Mr. Teapot]

Which supplement is this?

Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/953787200).

[Brendan Falconer]

I come back to the thread after doing other things and checking B9S to find that I've been beaten to the punch by Kurotowa...

Ah well.

Like I say, we're only low-level in our 9S campaign, but it all seems to be running smoothly, so I see no need to alter the 'sage or the others myself.

[Beckett]

The swordsage is the only one of the three classes that hasn't seen real use in my games (although it will if I get my chance to play a savage half-orc ss). However, from reading it over, and from having seen plenty of combats, it does not seemed gimped.

Yes, his recovery does suck, but it's something that I think will rarely come up. In my experience, combats rarely last 5 rounds or more. A typical encounter will be over before the Swordsage has used all his manuevers. Comparing him to a spellcaster, in a battle where the Swordsage runs out of readied manuevers, the wizard or cleric has probably used most of his spells for the day. Next encounter, the Swordsage is back to full, while the spellcaster is depleted.

[Mr. Teapot]

Yes, his recovery does suck, but it's something that I think will rarely come up. In my experience, combats rarely last 5 rounds or more.

But with Boosts and Counters, a Swordsage could use all his maneuvers in half that time. Assuming 1 maneuver used per round doesn't really work very well.

I don't know if the Swordsage's recovery is a problem or not. With luck, I can play one soon and find out.



Has anyone tried out the Swordsage variants listed in the adaptation section? It seems to me like the spellcasting version could be quite strong, since spells tend to be more powerful than maneuvers of the same level.

[Caspian]

Spell casting one should be fine, note down that any buff spells should be counted as stances.

As things go I think the main thing to do with the swordsage is to give it a full BAB. With most of the other neat monk abilties stripped out the full BAB will help the class hit the things its supposed to. Armor class may be an issue too. Also one of the things I thought of was to have some form of wis substitution for strike and damage.

[Cassandra]

Taking the Adaptive Style feat allows the Swordsage to refresh all their maneuvers in one full round action and switchs them out for any other maneuvers they want. So that really fixes the class right there.

[Niles]

Swordsages need the Adaptive Style Feat, this mostly solves the problem.

[Wakare]

Don't overlook the fact that the swordsage gets access to disciplines that other classes don't. Free weapon focus and style damage bonuses help to make up for their lack of full BAB (they don't hit quite as often, but hit harder.) And I can't overstate the value of having access to more stances; that alone has been worth the BAB tradeoff for my L8 fighter/swordsage. :)

Yes, it's kind of lame that Adaptive Style is a "required" feat, but I look at it as a buy-in cost for the swordsage. They really are that good in my opinion; I've never once felt gimped compared to the warblade in our group, and I've never even had to use Adaptive Style during a fight. I do use it between encounters or on the first round if I want access to one of my "specialist" abilities, like Soaring Raptor Strike vs. large opponents.

[Mr. Teapot]

Spell casting one should be fine, note down that any buff spells should be counted as stances.

Excellent idea, especially since otherwise a swordsage could load up with hour/level buff spells then Adaptive Style them to get something else.

[Save-vs-DM]

I have a party with both a pure class warblade and a pure class swordsage (and a cleric with a few maneuvers for good measure). The swordsage is consistantly competetive with the warblade, so I don't see a great need to change what isn't broken, at least in my experience.

However, if you honestly feel that the swordsage needs a better refresh mechanic, meet Adaptive Style halfway and let them refresh (but not change) thier maneuvers with a full-round action. That way adaptive style is still attractive as a feat choice, but the swordsage who doesn't take it has an option of refreshing his maneuvers.

However, I'd like to point out that in parties with martial adepts, fights do not tend to last nearly as long. The swordsage can ready enough maneuvers to hand most general fights, and in fights that take longer, a single full-round action isn't devastating.

Plus, don't we generally have feats that most classes need to take anyway? I've yet to see a fighter over level who didn't take weapon specialization, nor have I seen a rogue who didn't take weapon finesse (with rare exceptions). We don't give these classes those feats for free, even though they're "gimped" without them. It's just a very solid feat choice that most classes decide to take.

Just my thoughts.

Cheers,
Save vs DM

[Mr. Teapot]

Plus, don't we generally have feats that most classes need to take anyway? I've yet to see a fighter over level who didn't take weapon specialization, nor have I seen a rogue who didn't take weapon finesse (with rare exceptions). We don't give these classes those feats for free, even though they're "gimped" without them. It's just a very solid feat choice that most classes decide to take.

Adaptive Style isn't quite as strongly required as Druids taking Natural Spell, though it may be as required as having a melee damage dealer take Power Attack.

[Ineffable]

Is there a section that helps with crusader, swordsage and warblade builds?

Also, is it possible to get a 6th class of maneuvers to qualify for the Lot9S without taking another class or PrC?

Thanks,

[Carthrat]

I'm pretty sure you can just take martial adept feats to make up the difference?

[Shade the Lost]

Speaking as someone playing a swordsage, there is a different feat i use *a lot* where I haven't used Adaptive Style much. That may be based on the fact the party is a bit larger than normal and I've gone for maneuvers that tend to always work.
Swift Recovery lets you 1/day get back an expended maneuver, which can be very nice for dropping the hammer on that pesky monster that won't go down. Or for if you happen to roll lousy and miss with your big move.

This probably goes without saying, but if you're at all concerned with being effective in combat, by all that is holy, don't let your Dm surprise you with the Desert Wind legacy weapon. I don't have much experience with the others but the advice is probably the same. It's why I was able to talk my DM into giving me full BAB though.

[Mr Adventurer]

Doesn't the Warblade recovery specifically ban you from using any maneuvers in the round in which you recover? So that's no boosts, and no counters either. Pretty harsh.

And the Crusader doesn't know what he's getting. Honestly I'd rather remove the Extra Granted Maneuver feat from the Crusader repertoire.

However, if all you're asking for is advice on how to do it, rather than advice on whether you should do it, then you might consider changing the Swordsage recovery to a compromise between the current way and the Adaptive Style feat: 'spend a full-round action to recover all your maneuvers'. Then the Adaptive Style feat still lets you change your readied maneuvers as you recover them, and I'd still consider it a worthwhile feat.

EDIT: ugh, a 3 year old necro

[La Maupin]

I still love the Swordsage, and I don't think that the 4E Swordmage is quite an equal successor - though it comes a lot closer now that Arcane Power is out and the Ensnaring build is available.

[Mr. Teapot]

I still love the Swordsage, and I don't think that the 4E Swordmage is quite an equal successor .

Uh, the Swordmage (with an M) isn't in any way supposed to be a replacement to the Swordsage (with an S). They just have similar names.

Swordsages remade in 4e would probably wind up Rogues, Rangers or Monks, who were the classes Swordsage was trying to replace in 3.5 to begin with. Each of those classes has stolen some of the Swordsage's schtick, as Tome of Battle design morphed into core 4e principles.