[Fun, allegedly] Reminisce about D&D 4.x now that 5.0 is coming out. [Archive]

Erstwhile

11-09-2006, 12:11 PM

Inspired by some posts on this thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=295549)...pretty basic premise. D&D 5.0 is coming out! What was good and bad about D&D 4.x? And, really, what about those grognards who still play old-school games like D&D 3.5?

Obviously, the sillier, the better. :) As per usual for threads of this nature, try not to explicitly contradict previous posts. Well, unless it's funnier if you do. :D

Nostalgia brings redemption to all games. I plan on playing D&D 3.5 again around 2011. That will be awesome.

Not nearly as awesome at pointing out how rules-light and easy to play 3.5 is in comparison to 4th edition, revised. Meta-classes were a neat idea in theory, but you'll be able to get everyone to agree that it's all a convoluted mess that has killed roleplaying.

At least they cleaned up meta-feats in 4.33, but then they went and made things more complicated in 4.67 by stating that meta-feats were not tied to meta-classes but rather, could be taken even by the prestigestalt arch-classes.

Hey, don't knock those! I finally managed to get some role-playing done with one of those, the Spiritual Anagogic Arcane Visionary, to be exact, but i had to max out my pseudo-skill actualities to do it. It was so much harder to get pie in the olden days.

Axiomatic

11-09-2006, 12:13 PM

I liked the Wireless Ether.

C.W.Richeson

11-09-2006, 12:17 PM

Now that Giant Ethereal Pigeon is a standard race I just don't see the point in playing the lame older races.

What's the closest equivalent in 3.5? A half-orc?

Nelzie

11-09-2006, 12:26 PM

grumble grumble...

D&D Stopped being D&D back in the halcion days of the last few supplements for AD&D2e.

4th Edition was a blatant money grab that completely lost the sense of the psuedo-D&D that existed with 3.5. At least with 3.5 you could have gotten away without minis. 4th Editions "Collectable Spellbook" Cards and collectable/tradeable "Warrior Feat Decks" sucked all the life out of the game.

It was a great thing when Hasbro dissolved the entire WotC brand and sold off all the gaming assets. It's excellent that D&D5.0 is being published out of the Midwest once again.

I think it's really cool that a few of the core developers came out of Troll Lord Games. We're bound to see something closer to the heart of what D&D was all those decades ago.

Erstwhile

11-09-2006, 12:30 PM

To be fair, the Giant Ethereal Pigeon was perfectly playable in 4.0, but the changes to the meta-classes in 4.33 really buffed the GEPs up, especially the meta-synergies. Really, I don't see why the Hierophant spell factor actualities would stack with the Beg for Bread Crumbs pseudo-skill.

Now, yeah, they're totally broken. And don't get me started on the half-pigeon template.

Old Geezer

11-09-2006, 12:31 PM

Hetman

11-09-2006, 12:34 PM

I have to say I miss being able to play a single race. The new requirement that you can be no more than 1/4 any one race is annoying, even if the bonuses all stack.

And even though they are seriously underpowered, they never should have removed Humans as a standard race.

Nelzie

11-09-2006, 12:36 PM

I really liked 4ed's "Attack of Inevitability" rules! I know lots of lame-ass crybabies complained about how hard they were to understand, but as an old-time wargamer I thought AoI gave D&D 4 Ed. EXACTLY what it needed!

I agree, the Attack of Inevitability rule went really well with the incremental movement phase changes that altered the measurement of distance based upon the size factor and alteration effect state of the character.

Of course, that really made it difficult to play the Uncontrollable Shifter Sub-Class, the random shape shifting really wreaked havoc on AoI, especially when shifting from Ludicrous Dragon to African Swallow.

Supplanter

11-09-2006, 12:39 PM

The old-school Forge vibe that Mearl's imbued 4.0 with is gone. Address a premise? Hell, you could address it, stamp it, mail it and open it up on the receiving end with that game! With 5.0 you can't even find the fracking zip code.

Best,

Jim

Erstwhile

11-09-2006, 12:43 PM

With 5.0 you can't even find the fracking zip code.

I disagree. I was never very happy with the "Mearls faction" in D&D 4.x, and I really like some of the changes that the design team (Siembieda, in particular) looks to be bringing into 5.0.

C.W.Richeson

11-09-2006, 12:52 PM

I was happy that they kept all the magic systems in the core book. Wizard, Priest, Bard, Invocations, Psionics, Shadow Magic, True Names, Artifice, Pornomancy, and others really give characters a lot of choice!

That they changed the casting stat to Comeliness was another nice choice. I wouldn't want to play an ugly Giant Ethereal Pigeon spell user after all!

Gears

11-09-2006, 12:54 PM

Y'know, every time I look at one of my trusty D23s, I have to remember there was a time before 4th edition, when you could play D&D with dice NOT made by Hasbro....hard to imagine, eh?

bartkusa

11-09-2006, 12:59 PM

The biggest pain for me was shelling out for a projector to work with the map grid software. Did combat really have to become real-time?

I also wish they made more modules for it. I hate raiding the same dungeon, over and over, all the way to the end. I mean, we earn good loot from it, but they should at least open up the game to user-generated content.

EDIT: While D&D 3.5 was ridiculous enough, at least it was a rational number!

MACH RIDER

11-09-2006, 01:00 PM

I've got to say, I'm happy with the way they've dispersed the rules. The collectible-dice mechanic has simplified things greatly - I don't have to remember how much damage a longsword does when I can just roll the "longsword" die and add the "7.4-level Fighter" 37-sider, generating the complete results of my attack.

Also, the obscene cost keeps out the riff-raff.

C.W.Richeson

11-09-2006, 01:00 PM

It's hard to imagine a time when trig wasn't required for spell effects. That was always my favorite part of AD&D, I'm glad they brought it back.

Thomas D

11-09-2006, 01:04 PM

All I have to say is they better not close down 4ED's open-source d12 system when 5th Edition comes out. Eden Studio's d12 RIFTS rocked on toast.

Erstwhile

11-09-2006, 01:10 PM

I think in the 5.0 DMG they have humans as an NPC race, so that's not so bad. I mean, they don't compare to the GEPs, and when you put them up against the ArchDrow Prestige Race they're pretty much useless. Of course even in 4.x they saw that humans didn't have any place in the PC classes, but at least unlike in 4.x, 5.0 humans can take NPC classes like Fighter or Bard.

NPC New World Order

11-09-2006, 01:16 PM

I just hope that it's easy to convert the stat card that came with my Mialle lich mini to 5th.

Cuneiform

11-09-2006, 01:19 PM

I really like the collectible feat cards from 4.6. I hear in 5.0 they're cutting them down to 12 feats a booster, and upping the price to $14.95 a pack -- what a rip off!

At least they'll stop giving away prestige classes. That really makes me angry to have my rare foil taken up by "Dwarven Defender" again.

bartkusa

11-09-2006, 01:26 PM

I just hope that it's easy to convert the stat card that came with my Mialle lich mini to 5th.

There's a rumor that, in Fifth, each time you level up, you get a number of "Class Points" to distribute between classes. Far more flexible than the old system. "Rogue" was so constraining! Instead, you distribute your points in the "Sneaker" and "Stabber" classes, if that's your thing. Get enough levels in "Sneaker" and "Stabber" and you're eligible for the "Backstabber" prestige class.

Shining Dragon

11-09-2006, 01:39 PM

I'm a little disappointed that they're going to drop the Biker Ninja Class from the core classes and are going back to Rogue. 4.6 really brought the joy back to playing a thief-like class after all the work that was done on the other 17 core classes in previous editions.

Tomb's Grave

11-09-2006, 01:39 PM

I know some are grumbling about them not picking up the metaplot from 4.12, but you know, I think it's for the better. Sure, G.O.R.E.F.I.S.T.T.E. was cool when he first showed up, but after a while he just seemed ostentatious. And seriously, the number of times he respawned next to an XP Fountain was just mathematically impossible.

I will admit to missing the Progress Quest campaign setting, though. Pity they couldn't keep the liscence.

Secret Cow Level

11-09-2006, 01:55 PM

D&D 4.0 was a great game that was ruined in 4.412 with the addition of Ultraclasses to the core rules. Still 4.412 did give us the Setting Wars Campaign setting. It was great seeing Mordenkainen put the smackdown on Elminster with a Power Leech spell and in a totally sweet nod to the ancient school players kill Drizzt with a humble Disintegrate spell. Unfortunately Drizzt's magic scimtars ended up in the hands of Alias allowing her and that Mary Sue DMPersona Dragonbait to take control of the Mystara setting. At least they destroyed Krynn and made Raistlin thier bitch! :D

Troy_Costisick

11-09-2006, 01:56 PM

Rob Doupe

11-09-2006, 02:06 PM

Bah, 5.0 sucks. I remember when you had to collect real plastic minis, instead of just downloading the digital sigs. Now I have to worry about whether the other players have hacked their Powers and Shapes.

Also, I miss having a DM. I mean, we all know how annoying DMs could be when they messed up the Scenario Paths with their ill-conceived improvisation. I can remember one guy who figured he could just arbitrarily change up the tactical options in a Contest! But it was pretty cool to have another person read out the Scenario Narratives.

Foo Dog

11-09-2006, 02:13 PM

My hat of 5E know no limit! I caent even us e all my feeeat cards n-e-more cuz they want more $$$ from me.

Compleatly nerfed my fernal halfling biker ninja with the uberbabe, dominatress templates.

4E 4evah!

Erstwhile

11-09-2006, 02:18 PM

I will say this: I think it was a smart move when they changed to the d23 in 4.x. I mean, market research showed that nobody liked rolling a 1 or a 2, so I think by removing those two numbers and adding an extra side to the die they totally locked into a whole new range of network externalities.

padli

11-09-2006, 02:40 PM

I found the original 4.0 multi-racing rules to be totally broken. By my fourth session, one of my players had acquired every one of the 23 core races, including quarter-elves and double halflings, which of course caused insane stacking bonuses with his meta-critical-threat subfeat synergies. At first I tried house ruling it, by limiting the number of different races a character could belong to to a sane number like three or four, but that broke all other kinds of rules elsewhere, like the Genetics cleric domain in the Player's Handbook IV.

Luckily, they fixed it brilliantly in 4.1.3, by simply capping the number of parents to four (5 for orcs), but that also introduced the Family Life skills which totally bogged down combat.

JohnWest

11-09-2006, 03:03 PM

I'm out.

I can't afford to play this thing anymore.

I bought every darn collectible card for the 4.0 system. By the end, there were 18,430 cards, and some of them were selling for upwards of $5,000 on eBay.

And, you needed at least 5,000-6,000 of the good ones in order to construct a barely acceptable D&D 4.0 tournament deck.

Of course, then the bottom fell out of the market, and I'm stuck with these cards that are now worth...well, the value of 18,430 pieces of cardboard. Hell, who am I kidding, I have over 240,000 of them, what with all the duplicates, and reprintings. The first printings of cards, which would occasionally have typos...

Well, some guy sold one of those things, and bought himself a nice house outside of Seattle, let's just say.

But, you remember that whole thing that happened in the Netherlands, with the tulips, and the economy? That's what they're comparing the 4.0 craze to now.

I have 240,000 cards, and no home. Can you live in a house of cards? Can you?

I wash my hands of this mess.

I'm going to start playing Congress: The Legislating. WW is breaking whole new grounds in political RPG's. When the Executive and Judicial systems come out, I might try those too. I have some buddies on here that are playing the UK edition. Although, I hear that the House of Lords expansion needs some fact checking. Is it really true that the head of of the House of Lords is Oliver Cromwell, an elder vampire? Hell, you know how much history we get over here...

Anyway, I'm going to go try to earn some money now. I hope you all enjoy your 5E fun.

JW

D. Archon

11-09-2006, 03:05 PM

the Family Life skills which totally bogged down combat.

Don't even get me started on that.

I once tried using the Ironing intra-feat, and it totally threw the game out of balance.

Who knew that having crisp lines in your hauberk made your character immune to Castigation damage?

basilisk

11-09-2006, 03:12 PM

I've heard that in 5.0 they're allowing characters to have personalities again. This might really lure people back from MMORPGs, where the last vestiges of people who cared about story and creativity have been forced to hide out.

Erstwhile

11-09-2006, 03:20 PM

I found the original 4.0 multi-racing rules to be totally broken. By my fourth session, one of my players had acquired every one of the 23 core races, including quarter-elves and double halflings, which of course caused insane stacking bonuses with his meta-critical-threat subfeat synergies.

I have never understood why they removed the synergies for the double halfling subfeats in 4.12, put them back in 4.33, and then increased the synergies in 4.66. Double halflings, hell. By 4.66, you essentially had triple halflings. :mad: The 4.66 halfling totally destroyed the multi-racing system.

JohnWest

11-09-2006, 03:21 PM

Well, with Gary Gygax himself returning to D&D as the head designer of 5E, well...

I've never seen this kind of division, and intensity in the RPG community before.

I mean, just last month, they had to shut down RPGnet for a whole week because of all the flamewars this keeps generating. I've never seen this kind of madness--it was like the principal putting the whole school on a one week suspension.

The thing is, I hear that Microsoft is also building a next-generation supercomputer that can play D&D.

Gary and the Supercomputer are going to play D&D in Las Vegas next year, in front of a live audience.

Isn't this a crazy time we live in?

Oblivious ignorant elf

11-09-2006, 03:33 PM

I'm psyched about the prestige alignements.
Nine alignements were... *long breath* Constraining.

Now your lawful evil character can choose between becoming a 'blitzkriegist' or 'hammer-cyclist'. And pure neutrals can finally decide if they are 'not a damn givers' or 'selfless balance maniacs'.

On other hand, I don't think that lack of sonic-damage dealing monsters meant that 'trumpet-maw kobolds' were a good idea.

Mindflayers and holy undead will be playable races in new Forgotten Realms! And wow, evil Drow!

nstalkie

11-09-2006, 04:07 PM

my hate of d32 know no limit !

It fails in just about every aspect of a game,and it is more of a card playign game than role playing game.

Frist off it is way to liniar.You just get better wiht buyign new cards.THere is no way in avoiding it.I mena no mater what you are, you have have hit points and levels.

It is over comlicated,and simplist at the same time. IT is harder to hit a mmman in plate armor cards.And hammer cards and sword cards tear chaim mail cards the same way. Then you have the detail of when you can atack,and what range weapon cards have,and how far you can move.

Classes, are jokes. really.From how hits points.skill points,and bonus power cards are moved about. In the end in boils down to this.

levle systems do not work.They may work on paper, but a level 12 biker ninja or even mag doesn't need to fear having a sword card swung at them, or even getting stabed. Also with the way hit points work, your either fighting as if nothing happened or are out cold.Nothing in the middle.

the flaw of rolling a d32 is also that the best biker ninja in the word, taking up his most magical sword card, misses 5% of the time.ALso so all bikre ninjae are just as good with all weapon cards they use.We all know that training with hand to hand weapon cards will make you great with a bow card.Also if your good with gun cards, you must know how to use a sword card.

In the end, d32 is too many rules, and not enough rules at the same time.Has too many strick rules, while leaving many feild wide open with no reason. I am ranting here,and know this dosen't make much sense to many people.BUt in the end I would like to see one come with a good reason d32 is a good system.

D. Archon

11-09-2006, 04:44 PM

the flaw of rolling a d32 is also that the best biker ninja in the word, taking up his most magical sword card, misses 5% of the time.

I think something is wrong with your d32. You need to buy a new one. the ones released with the 4.67r3 set were the best, since they were made out of melted down surplus d12s.

Tori Bergquist

11-09-2006, 04:53 PM

I'll miss the prestige class splat books. You know, "The Complete Assassin, The Complete Mystic Theurge, the Complete Loremaster." Those really added to the game.

I'll miss the Uberalles Epic Expansion; it's hard to imagine play at less than level 100 now....

I liked the old level progression charts. The new charts where every successful attack ups you a level is just not the same.

I appreciated how 4.0 was a Wizards of the Coast baby, before Blizzard bought the system and integrated it in to the World fo Warcraft fanchise....remember when Greyhawk was the default setting?

I liked it back when you only needed the core three rulebooks to play, not the new twelve volume set with BlueRay disc addendum being released.

And what's up with the new electronic die-rolling counters built in to the PH cover?

padli

11-09-2006, 05:04 PM

I have never understood why they removed the synergies for the double halfling subfeats in 4.12, put them back in 4.33, and then increased the synergies in 4.66. Double halflings, hell. By 4.66, you essentially had triple halflings. :mad: The 4.66 halfling totally destroyed the multi-racing system.

Well, there's an interview here (http://www.fakesite.org) in which one of the original designers explains that the reasoning behind this is that players would sometimes get confused about the Subfeat of Opportunity system in certain non-combat situations where the positioning of every character in the room wasn't so clearly defined, so they basically threw the whole thing out, and removed it from the SRD, leaving a gaping hole in the system.

Of course, soon there would be third party OGL PDFs everywhere with all kinds of replacement rules, and Wizards would just pick out the best ideas and put 'em into 4.66. But I agree, the playtesting was horrible, and it totally broke the halflings.

Just another WotC marketing ploy.

nstalkie

11-09-2006, 05:08 PM

i just hope in 5.0 they'll keep the "orc with pie" adventure from 4.311 !

Ghola

11-09-2006, 05:30 PM

Don't even get me started on that.

I once tried using the Ironing intra-feat, and it totally threw the game out of balance.

Who knew that having crisp lines in your hauberk made your character immune to Castigation damage?

You should check your rules again. That immunity only works against characters who share *at least* two races with yours, and then only in urban-based dungeons. I know this may be the default style of play for many people but it certainly doesn't cover every campaign - or did you forget all of us Planescape Maximus players? Hell I can't remember the last time we even had a game in Euclidian space, Ironing doesn't work when there aren't any straight lines to be seen.

I'm not really looking forward to 5.0 despite the team they are rumored (remember no names are confirmed yet damn it) to be putting together for it. My current stuff works just fine, and I don't want to yet another version of that bloated .NET just to play.

Asmodai

11-09-2006, 05:46 PM

I still contend that using the Pallidium system for 4th edition was a step-back. It did work with Eberron surprisingly well though.

Shoe-horning in the Daeva, Gangrel and Ventrue as new RCCs and Carthians, Invictus etc. as new OCCs after they bought White Wolf was a little awkward. Too many of the published adventures between 2010 and 2020 consisted of meeting the Prince at a tavern and then having the Prince send you off to kill psionic dire rats.

Argus Eye

11-09-2006, 05:53 PM

One thing I'm glad was dropped from 5.0 was the mitochondrial halfracing rules. If your paternal grandfather was a roper, you'd get the cool Stretching Racial Advantage, but you would miss out on the mitochondrially transmitted Camouflage. I don't have to tell you that was quite a bummer when you wanted to make a doublehalfling-orc-roper-orc-gnollgoblin sorceror-mage-sabremaster-powerbroker-deathdealer-paladin. You'd have to switch out with the gnollgoblin, and that would completely ruin the character concept.

I did it anyway, or all my Second Printing cards would have been useless. But I'm glad I have the chance now in 5th, even though they nerfed the sabremaster completely.

BASHMAN

11-09-2006, 06:11 PM

And I am glad that 5.0 is no longer requiring you to use "3 Dragon Ante" cards to determine initiative anymore. That was annoying.

Tomb's Grave

11-09-2006, 06:21 PM

I did it anyway, or all my Second Printing cards would have been useless. But I'm glad I have the chance now in 5th, even though they nerfed the sabremaster completely.

Speaking of the Sabermaster, I miss the Compleat And We Really Mean Compleat Book of Everything Mastery. I saw the 5.0 previews and the mechanics just don't synch up at all.

My current campaign character is a level 56 Sword Fighter/level 378 North Shadowfare Junta Protectorate/level 7783 Kuanimaster. How am I supposed to capture every aspect of my kuanimastery when I can't figure out how to convert a kuani's WRGT and SPLG over to FAFAF and CARL?

bartkusa

11-09-2006, 07:13 PM

So do you still get a new race every four levels?

Agent Oracle

11-09-2006, 07:19 PM

I really haven't hbad much time to play since 4.6.1, but I'll miss the old warhorse of D&D. I really felt a strong connection to the original AD&D. 2nd edition, except for the continuous printings of new monster manuals. By the time we were up to Fiend Manual XIV.5 there just wasn't much wind left in their sails. I mean, honestly, did anyone _ever_ use the rules for selective breeding of hamsters for color and fang length?

Also, the weapon type Vs. Armor type chart was completely too complex. Even with the laptop automatic resolver, it was too complex to not simply use the rule zero function and ignore it.

Erstwhile

11-09-2006, 07:26 PM

So do you still get a new race every four levels?

Well, yeah, from what I can tell. They don't want 5.0 to be a totally new game.

Also, the weapon type Vs. Armor type chart was completely too complex. Even with the laptop automatic resolver, it was too complex to not simply use the rule zero function and ignore it.

Don't forget, though, Rule Zero was totally revamped in 4.6.1. You needed the GM's Fiat Ultra Rare Card to invoke that rule. Sure, a lot of people houseruled that change but it's still in the rules as written.

NYTFLYR

11-09-2006, 07:39 PM

Does anyone have the conversion rules to GURPS 5.25?

domino

11-09-2006, 07:49 PM

Speaking of the Sabermaster, I miss the Compleat And We Really Mean Compleat Book of Everything Mastery. I saw the 5.0 previews and the mechanics just don't synch up at all.

My current campaign character is a level 56 Sword Fighter/level 378 North Shadowfare Junta Protectorate/level 7783 Kuanimaster. How am I supposed to capture every aspect of my kuanimastery when I can't figure out how to convert a kuani's WRGT and SPLG over to FAFAF and CARL?

The 56th level of Sword Fighter was such a cherrypick. I'm glad it's gone in Fifth Edition.

Pierce Inverarity

11-09-2006, 07:50 PM

Looking back to when I took over the helm at Wizards right after I bought Hasbro, I still stand by my decision to have redesigned 5.0 as entirely diceless.

Elton Robb

11-09-2006, 07:56 PM

I just heard that Apple Computer just completed a new piece of fun called a "Holo-Suite." You know, the room that generates quasi-solid computer holograms? Well, I heard on the grapevine that Wizards of the Coast is licencing a new Eberron Holonovel.

Soon, we won't be using the twelve core rules books anymore. Just buy an Eberron Holonovel, program it into the holosuite, and enter an Eberron you can physically see, touch, smell, and interact with. Blizzard Entertainment already is releasing a World of Warcraft holonovel. I tell ya, the holosuite is the end of Roleplaying and Computer roleplaying as we know it.

Supplanter

11-09-2006, 08:32 PM

Has anyone noticed that 5.0 has neither dungeons NOR dragons in it??????????

Best,

Jim

Feathers

11-09-2006, 08:52 PM

Some of the stuff for 4.x was pretty cool but you needed a computer for it. Its really showing its age when you put it next to the new 5.0 modules that run on wetware augmented reality. I can't wait to see what random encounters I'll meet on the streets. Just make sure your dataspace metafilters are up to date. You don't want to catch that "1978 D&D Is The One True Game" meme.

Sunhawk

11-09-2006, 09:18 PM

I was happy that they kept all the magic systems in the core book. Wizard, Priest, Bard, Invocations, Psionics, Shadow Magic, True Names, Artifice, Pornomancy, and others really give characters a lot of choice!

Are you kidding?? Unless you shelled out for the Book of Erotic Misdeeds I, III, X and XII (at the very least!), pornomancy was next to useless! And don't get me started on the Wild Metamagic Item Feat sequence when applied to a Shadow Magic/Bard combination -- completely broken.

Calithena

11-09-2006, 09:21 PM

If I ever become a multimillionaire, I am going to buy the rights to the name "Dungeons and Dragons", build a deep tunnel complex full of alligators, capybara, dwarf southeast asian elephants, poisonous australian vipers, and berserk human drug addicts in body paint in a third world country, and hide treasure maps here and there around the world. A full assignment of rights to the name will be in the bottom room on the deepest level. Then I can watch as the bravest and best descend on my catacomb and ruins to try to claim the prize....

prince_dios

11-09-2006, 09:24 PM

I stopped playing when they incorporated D+D booster packs into the line: one player showed up at my game with a Vorpal Longsword. His mother was furious about the subsequent credit card bill.

Raxmei

11-09-2006, 09:39 PM

Lots of people ignored them, but I had lots of fun with the social combat rules. The attack of conscience mechanic was a great underused rule. I once had a character with just the right set of feats, defeats and antifeats to get in attacks of conscience for nearly any action. Insult: get an AoC, flatter: AoC, change the subject: AoC, shout "lalala I'm not listening" and swing your sword at me: yeah I even got one for that. If you got within earshot you were toast. The DM made me make a new character after I made a whole army of gyrodemons look down at the ground in awkward silence. He tried to kill me first but the rocks falling from the sky suddenly recognised the error of their ways and went off to devote their lives to good.

Of course that was before 4.23 where they nerfed social attacks and made inanimate objects immune.

Uberxael

11-09-2006, 09:42 PM

Looking back to when I took over the helm at Wizards right after I bought Hasbro, I still stand by my decision to have redesigned 5.0 as entirely diceless.

All well and good, but you nerfed all the people playing the Nobilis crossovers from 4.31415. My Power of Warfare, high-Aspect fighter build used to be practially unstoppable.

I will, however, be interested to see what they do with the 'Excrucian' meta-class. One of my players was involved in the playtest and brought one into our games-wiped the floor with everyone.

Sayter

11-09-2006, 09:47 PM

I think my favorite rule in 4.678 was the change in ammo use for ranged weaponry. It was a welcome change to be able to substitute arrows and bolts for gnomes and halflings. The heavy damage and satisfying screams and splats made it well worth using.

Of course, then they had to go and change the default damage from 2d8+2 to 1d8 in 5.0. So much for that. Plus they stated that only PURE halflings and gnomes are suitable as ammo.....when in the rulebook both of those races are said to be nearly extinct, having interbred so heavily with other races. I mean....sheesh...i cant use a 1/4 halfling,1/4 dog, 1/4 dragon 1/4 chair leg as ammo? WTF?

BASHMAN

11-09-2006, 09:51 PM

My hate of poeple copyng that stupid post knowz no lymit. I mean, yes, it was stupid, and the first time people copied it was funny, but comeon! Any hiz speling was not as bad as peple mayd it seem.

BASHMAN

11-09-2006, 09:56 PM

Oh, and thank god they are keeping the rules that Armor makes you take less damage. Can you believe that in the old days, the rules said that armor made you HARDER to hit? They must have been on crack. And STRENGTH gave you a BONUS to hit? I'm glad they changed that to Dexterity in 4.x. I mean, I understood the argument for strength when it was to pierce through armor, but it made no sense that you got to use your strength bonus to hit an unarmored monk who was trying to outmanuver you...

I'm also glad they got rid of that stupid rules that mages cannot wear armor or cast spells that heal. I mean, D&D was the only game where that was the case. GURPS, Palladium, and a lot of others allowed any caster to heal with a spell. They finally got with the program.

Kaiu Keiichi

11-09-2006, 10:04 PM

D&D 5.0? I play Mage: The Ascension, 6th Edition and Exalted:The 3rd Deliberative.

CB

ShanG

11-09-2006, 10:04 PM

Has this been done yet? I don't recall seeing it, but I haven't been paying attention. :p

Some of the stuff for 4.x was pretty cool but you needed a computer for it. Its really showing its age when you put it next to the new 5.0 modules that run on wetware augmented reality. I can't wait to see what random encounters I'll meet on the streets. Just make sure your dataspace metafilters are up to date. You don't want to catch that "1978 D&D Is The One True Game" meme.

5.0 has killed rollplaying.

Yeah, I know a lot of people like 5.0. - but whatever happened to just having fun and throwing the dice?

With the new integrated subversive psuedosimulation matrices I can't splice in to play without the character files dowloading backstory, relationships, and character flaws into my personal sub-net. Sounds like a chat room, not an RPG. With template-determined personality quirks it's quantum-duplication psyche production.

3.5 should be re-labled an imaginary storytelling Game. The whole system feels like a some kid's fantasy (having adventures in your head) than a rollplaying game.

Frankly if 5.0 and the d20 system are what is classified as a rollplaying system then the industry really is in trouble.

The integrated fuzzy-logic 'GM' biocircuits are designed ot make the rules rudundant. You're just to respawn an endless stream of characters who will die illogical deaths at the hands of dragons or falling rocks.there to supply the characters with an endless stream of monsters for the xp. Your just a facilitator to the leveling of the monster characters.

What other medium exept virtual theater do you get tangles on convo-blocks about character motivations and strategies for romance. Were is the rollplaying?

There are currently exactly 5,613,735... 6... 7 titles produced under the q23 Constricted Simulation Agreement, even publishers with their own rpg systems are coverting their games to q23. (5,613,743...)

The new crop of gamers that are just getting into the hobby are going to know nothing but the 5.0 and q23 rules. They will have no understanding of what rollplaying is or how to do it.

We the nonconformists have become the conformed. Instead of piercing through the the systems-decay 5.0 has created a datacage with no hope of escape.

Knuckleface Jones

11-09-2006, 10:05 PM

I think you guys are way too hard on 4.0. There was something really great about holding an actual book in your hands, even if the rules were presented in graphic novel format.

My 5.0 Robo-Players all know the rules better than I do, and still, they always fall for the sacrifice move! Then there's the way you have to buy additional suppliments just to raise robo-player's A.I. It's bloody extortion! I knew there'd be trouble when Halliburton bought out WoTC.

Tomb's Grave

11-09-2006, 10:06 PM

Oh, and thank god they are keeping the rules that Armor makes you take less damage..

I'm not sure if a chainmail shirt should completely absorb a flamethrower, though.

Also, I'm surprised that flamethrowers have integrated into the whole buisness with such efficiency. I can hardly imagine a traditional medieval fantasy world that isn't on fire or covered in chainmail nowadays.

Tomb's Grave

11-09-2006, 10:10 PM

D&D 5.0? I play Mage: The Ascension, 6th Edition and Exalted:The 3rd Deliberative.

CB

I know, I got my own copy of Dogs in the Vineyard: Bikini Party Summer and Vampire: The Bloodening. But man, sometimes I just wanna sit down and kill untold billions of orcs in simulated genocide. Just like my second-favorite roleplaying game, Violence: The Roleplaying Game of Earnest and Unironic Bloodshed.

Pierce Inverarity

11-09-2006, 10:27 PM

Actually, Nobilis is now running under the O (chuckle) GL. They were bitching like mad when I demanded CRs for the Execrotchians (sp?), but Tony paid them a visit, and now it's all good.

Bada bing bada boom, know what I mean.

Morgenstern

11-09-2006, 10:27 PM

Ashigaru

11-09-2006, 11:27 PM

I hope 5.0 will reign in the Bard a bit. In 4.x they were so powerful that you had to be stupid to NOT take a few levels in Bard!

The Eye

11-10-2006, 02:57 AM

I really liked 4.0's little color map inserts, the easily identifiable icons for skills, and simplified wound track rather than hit points. I could play it with my little brother after only about 15 minutes of explination.

5.0 seems like a return to the older RPG models, and will be a great game for older kids/20-somethings, but 4.0 did a lot for us by making the game accessible AND fun for the consol generation, taking back nearly as much ground as that whole intensely cerebral 'indy games' movement lost us to the MMO crowd.

Look, the "indy games" thing was supposed to drive off those people. I specifically designed it to make MMOs look more attractive.

Of course, then I saw the light. Now that the indy purge has occurred, we'll never have to see a game published by anyone other than Hasbro International Metaconglomorate again.

Warmduscher

11-10-2006, 05:23 AM

Siembieda is back in a design team again? Doesn't anyone remember the Rifts design incident when he finally cracked under the fan pressure for better rules and proceeded to create Rifts 2-13 in only 4 months? Don't you recall how many playtesters died trying to fully understand Rifts 2 and the few mad survivors had to then start over a week later with Rifts 3?! Only Steve Jackson with his elite Brazilian Death Squad could stop him moments before the release of Rifts 14, which would have destroyed the minds of roleplayers worldwide. And it was a damn close call with the Table Crapper as the only surviving playtester defending the headquarters.

He was only pardoned from his 10 years sentence of hard labor in the GURPS prison camp after he promised to never join a rpg design team again.

And regardless of his argument that D&D has no traces of roleplaying left after the great GM purge in 2009 I don't want to risk anything like the big Rifts 9 vs. D&D 4.33 flamewar that destroyed RPG.net, ENworld and the Palladium forums in it's wake.

Nelzie

11-10-2006, 06:44 AM

Looking back to when I took over the helm at Wizards right after I bought Hasbro, I still stand by my decision to have redesigned 5.0 as entirely diceless.

My 5.0 Robo-Players all know the rules better than I do, and still, they always fall for the sacrifice move! Then there's the way you have to buy additional suppliments just to raise robo-player's A.I. It's bloody extortion! I knew there'd be trouble when Halliburton bought out WoTC.

I still can't get over these rumors about some lone megamillionaire and Haliburton having bought out Hasbro. The WotC collapse was well documented in the "Is this the end of D&D now that WotC is gone?" thread.

I mean, that thing exploded with posts far outstripping both the dreaded "Creepiest Gamer Thread" and the always amusing "RPG Motivational Posters" threads. By last count, it could be a whole 6 years before either of those threads come close to surpassing the postcount and views of the "WotC Collapse" thread.

Still, those rumors of Gygax unplugging from his cyber realm and joining with Kevin Siembieda and a host of ex-Troll Lord Games writers has some merit to it. Especially with the whole simple black advertising campaign they have going on.

You know the one, black screen with that ancient blocky computer text from the 1980's that simply says, "The Return is Imminent." and then a 1/5th of a second flash of "D&D 5.0 - Reborn" and then darkness with the faint sound of swords clashing on shields.

The mostly comfirmed rumors of how they have someone special involved in the development of D&D 5.0 makes it really seem like EGG is involved. (Especially since his avatar hasn't left his tower in the past year and isn't receiving visitors anymore.)

Pig with Pen

11-10-2006, 07:18 AM

Heya,

You guys make a good point, but 4.x's downfall was that you had to download the supplements to a computer (preferably a laptop) and then carry that or abuse the heck out of the public library printers printing the darn things off. Switching back and forth between books and computer was a real pain. Now that the 5.0 core books are all ebooks and you can buy a customized DnD elenctronic book viewer, things will be a lot easier. I'll miss rolling dice tho. The automatic randomizer just doesn't have the same feel :(

Peace,

-Troy

You, Sir, are a license violator and copyright infringer! We all know that the DRM on the D&D 4.x files didn't allow printing. I mean, what do you think? Buying the ONPF (obnoxious non-portable file) for 24,99$ and than simply print the stuff? No, Sir, buy the 4 corebooks for 59,95$ each. Thief!

EDIT: OK, beofre someone sells me to the D&D scene police. I don't want to smear D&D 4.x here, 240$ for about 4 tomes of 600 pages each is a good deal. Honestly!

uncle_wilf

11-10-2006, 07:40 AM

Well, I don't see how you can dis 5.0 when they've managed to get a first rate artist like Jack Chick to illustrate it. All this fuss over 4.x is crazy. It didn't even have the real spells in it! Now at last we are going to have the chance to become 20th level wizards, instead of just our characters. I can't wait until I get my first wish spell... Do you think I should use it to undo all the harm caused by President Chelsea Clinton's invasion of Canada, or should I blow it on Coke and Hookers?

Gordon

glass

11-10-2006, 07:57 AM

You should check your rules again. That immunity only works against characters who share *at least* two races with yours, and then only in urban-based dungeons.Are you sure about that, because it doesn't weem to say that in the SRD. Is the text in the PHD different?

glass.

San Dee Jota

11-10-2006, 08:08 AM

You know what I'll miss most. The 356,741,237-sided dice rolls on the Table of Circumstances. I mean, a -single- dice roll totally determined the outcome of a combat, how much treasure the loser had, how many trees were located in the nearby forest, how many forests were on the continent, how many butterflies were creating hurricanes at that moment, and what the socio-economic impact of it all on cattle trading was.

Now we have to roll out all the stuff as a bunch of seperate things.

glass

11-10-2006, 08:11 AM

And regardless of his argument that D&D has no traces of roleplaying left after the great GM purge in 2009 I don't want to risk anything like the big Rifts 9 vs. D&D 4.33 flamewar that destroyed RPG.net, ENworld and the Palladium forums in it's wake.I know, that was a sad day. I know RPGnet was eventually repoened but it has never been the same since. It's as if noone dares talk abiout new games anymore.

I mean seriously, have a look at the other threads active in Open right now. How many of them would have been out of place way back in 2006?

glass.

Springaldjack

11-10-2006, 08:13 AM

I mean seriously, have a look at the other threads active in Open right now. How many of them would have been out of place way back in 2006?

QFT er....... Laugh point.

killerjoel

11-10-2006, 08:51 AM

I just don't think I can get on board with another D&D being online-only. I mean, what happened to the days when we could sit down with a stack of digitally-animated cards and play like our parents used to?

I heard they're putting alignment restrictions on classes that consist of at least a 4th paladin, though. That ought to make for interesting roleplaying. I'll have to break out my economically LE/socially CG/ paternally LGTPZ (neutral tendencies) half-umber-hulk/half double halfling crusader/lobbyist/crosswordmancer and take him for another spin, but then I've always been guilty of building characters for roleplaying instead of combat.

What's up with these 'classic' modules, though? Books? I play D&D, not Archaeology: The Snoring. If I want text that doesn't speak, I'll buy a History Channel simulation.

Pig with Pen

11-10-2006, 08:59 AM

Are you sure about that, because it doesn't weem to say that in the SRD. Is the text in the PHD different?

glass.

Oh no, please not again this discussion. Before WotC went belly-up the Errata 2010.2 clearly explained this was an editorial glitch, left over from public playtesting that was the 4.0 time. Man, why can't Halliburton maintain the old site? It would save us lots of pain.

vitus979

11-10-2006, 09:54 AM

5.0 Lidda doesn't look nearly as hot as the version from 4.67. :(

The 4.67 iconic of 1/2 GEP Lidda by Elmore is the standard by which I view artwork now-adays.

Gaming Geek

11-10-2006, 11:02 AM

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

Ever since NCSoft releaced the patch to allow players to create their own MMO worlds in their "Universe 2.0" setting, there have been NO GOOD GAMES RELEACED!

Hell, half the decent designers have attached themselves permently into cyberspace, and are paying their way with the royalties from players living on their worlds. I would be too, if I didn't have that damned disability that keeps me from being able to use the full cybernetic attachment.

You kids need to throw away your silly RPG's and log into the real deal!

Tricky_Anansi

11-10-2006, 11:14 AM

It's hard to imagine a time when trig wasn't required for spell effects. That was always my favorite part of AD&D, I'm glad they brought it back.

Screw that. THe best part of 4.6c was when they did away with the Trigomancer PrC. I mean, now we may have to buy collectable cards for spells, but at least you don't have every mage wasn't taking that class just for the "arcane memory explosion" ability. Being able to memorize a trig equasion (including variables for each spells distance and target) and providing it within 60 seconds to cast the spell for free? That was almost as bad as 4.2-Blue's "Combat Overload" feat where if you could beat the DM into submission using a whiffle bat you killed the target creature.

I'm glad they have a sensible mechanic for spells again, like using ultra-rare polychromed cards to represent quickened spells. I've alrleady got 2 castings of Penguinspray and one casting of Pull my Finger.

Gambor

11-10-2006, 11:21 AM

:mad: I really can't make a constructive post in this thread due to the fact that 3.5 is the highest D&D version that is currently found in my area. :mad:

JimmieBJr

11-10-2006, 11:22 AM

My hat for D34 know no limit.

JimmieBJr

11-10-2006, 11:24 AM

:mad: I really can't make a constructive post in this thread due to the fact that 3.5 is the highest D&D version that is currently found in my area. :mad:

Geez man! Where do you live?

Antartica?

I hear that even the dread Tcho-Tcho (who, as you know, earned their own race meta-prime-template in v4.68b) can get PDF copies of 5.0!

I mean, after the merger of DTRPR and RPGNow caused that fourfold crossrip back in '06 PDFs are ludicrously easy to get. And the delivery rate of a Hound of Tindalos (and ain't it a shame that those pups are only CR3 these days?) is just crazy-fast!

Gambor

11-10-2006, 11:31 AM

Some area in Tennessee where comic stores are few and D&D players even fewer (5 would be a good estimate, me included, I looked at some online group-community thing that was rather popular).

egamad

11-10-2006, 11:42 AM

As long as they kept the Land Shark prestige race, I'll be happy with 5.0.

Sabermane

11-10-2006, 11:50 AM

Since I'm in the test-market internment camp of Colorado, I was forced to take a viral meme-fection of the Beta. Let me tell you, now that I have to play D&D (Thanks, Democrats!), I'm really enjoying it.

I think you're all going to see some major changes to the Shuffling sections of the rules--I like it. It makes combat slower and more technical.

My only hope is that I can afford the system upgrade spreadsheets for my 299 wargiver/43 sneak-stabber/103 white death magerer lycozombithropic under dwelf fang-xinthi hermaprodarchon. I was really getting some good story ideas from it.

Agent Oracle

11-10-2006, 11:51 AM

Don't forget, though, Rule Zero was totally revamped in 4.6.1. You needed the GM's Fiat Ultra Rare Card to invoke that rule. Sure, a lot of people houseruled that change but it's still in the rules as written.

those were ultra-rare? I had three... huh.

SuperPheemy

11-10-2006, 12:14 PM

I thought Siembieda is really bold by incorporating Megadamage (TM), and a percentile skill system based on the classic Anime series Chobits. It's what D&D 5 needs.

The collectable sourcebook idea for 4.9375 ed seemed to work in theory but you just about go broke trying to find the set with a DMG. I saw one selling on Ebay last week, but couldn't swing a second mortgage to pay for it.

Though I tought that using only strictly prime numbers was a work of genius! It really seperates the Real Gamers from the wannabees. They really need to keep that feature for 5th.

I heard a rumor that Steve Long has been tapped to write the campaign setting, released in 37 monthly volumes with a free forklift included for easy perusal!

Thomas D

11-10-2006, 12:46 PM

Say what you will, I'm just glad they're keeping Spelljammer the default setting in 5.

Valandil

11-10-2006, 01:16 PM

Warmduscher

11-10-2006, 03:24 PM

I miss rolling dice and deciding my own actions.

So I'm going to hate buying 5.0's collectable "Class-Approved Action Card" decks.
I want to decide my character's choices, not be limited to the actions on the cards I'm holding in my hand.

And spells are definately back to "fire-and-forget" now that you have to tear the cards in half to pull out their success/failure result token.

And it might arguably work well for spells, but do we really need "I swing", "Take the left tunnel", and "Haggle" cards?

What happened to roleplaying?

You may be too young to remember, but roleplaying was patented in 2009. Just look for the great GM purge for details. Unless you pay the 20,000$ licensing fee you can get into real trouble for making up your own actions. And the gaming police doesn't hesitate to kick your door in and seize your character sheet if a fellow player is ratting you out for using non-approved actions. I knew a friend who tried to set up an underground wing-it-GM club. Poor bastard, never heard from him again after the RPPC (RolePlaying Police Commision) found him.

Gon

11-10-2006, 03:39 PM

Some area in Tennessee where comic stores are few and D&D players even fewer (5 would be a good estimate, me included, I looked at some online group-community thing that was rather popular).

I'm sure you can find a copy of 4E Redux in some of the filedumps online still. And after that lawsuit got thrown out on a technicality last month it is currently legal again.

VRex

11-10-2006, 04:07 PM

...
The thing is, I hear that Microsoft is also building a next-generation supercomputer that can play D&D.

Gary and the Supercomputer are going to play D&D in Las Vegas next year, in front of a live audience.

Isn't this a crazy time we live in?

What's a "Microsoft?" I GoogleNix'd it and came up with nothing? :confused:

Erstwhile

11-13-2006, 08:12 AM

I miss rolling dice and deciding my own actions.

So I'm going to hate buying 5.0's collectable "Class-Approved Action Card" decks.
I want to decide my character's choices, not be limited to the actions on the cards I'm holding in my hand.

And spells are definately back to "fire-and-forget" now that you have to tear the cards in half to pull out their success/failure result token.

And it might arguably work well for spells, but do we really need "I swing", "Take the left tunnel", and "Haggle" cards?

What happened to roleplaying?

Zombie Jesus, man, I thought this kind of elitist crap went out when 4.0 came out. Honestly, 4.x and 5.0 are roleplaying. You play the role of a guy casting spells, swinging a sword, taking a left tunnel, or haggling! How is that not roleplaying? In fact I find that having to limit your actions to what's available to you in your hand is just like real life - play the hand you're dealt, and all that. And your options will only increase under the Open Card Licence, which allows third party publishers to produce their own cards. For instance, I understand Green Mongoose Games will be producing the "Versatility" line of cards, which will include useful (and hilarious!) cards like "Screw Checking for Traps, I'm Breaking Down the Door!", and "180 degree turn" for when you need to turn right but only have a "Take the Left Tunnel" card.
]
Look, I'm sorry, but bad roleplaying is the fault of the group, not the game. All you need is a couple of GM's Fiat cards and you're golden.

Erstwhile

08-20-2007, 02:11 PM

So, did anyone else see the draft of the Gygaxian Dungeon Ecologist prestige class?

(Seemed like an appropriate time for a bump...eh, maybe not.)

Multi-Pass

08-20-2007, 02:46 PM

I understand the logic behind the new Hit Location Tables, and I appreciate that it uses a d34 rather than 2d37 (which nobody's been using since the 4.37 Edible Dice rules anyway), but I think it's a little biased.

TABLE 34-72: Hit Locations (male)
1: Junk
2-5: Groin Area
6-32: Nutsack
33-34: Crotch
TABLE 34-73: Hit Locations (female)
1-31: Crotch
32-34: Bung

riotgearepsilon

08-20-2007, 06:05 PM

Listen, I don't know how YOU fight, but in my experience that is a PERFECT simulation of mortal combat! I was in the MARINES.

Lugh

08-21-2007, 09:40 AM

Wow, guys. I thought this was supposed to be a POSITIVE thread. Some of you guys are really down on the game here. I guess maybe it is time for a new edition, after all.

Plus, whatever you may say about the mechanics (or whisper about the GM Purge), you have to admit that 4.x was good for the industry. Sure, the RPPC have classified indie game designers in the same class as "wing it" GMs, and arrested most of them. But, with the indoctrination of thousands (dare I say hundreds of thousands?) of former MMO junkies into VTTO junkies, the industry, as defined by Halliburton, is doing better than ever.

I mean, without 4.x, do you think Kevin Smith would ever have gotten the backing to do the FR trilogy of films? Emma Watson was so hot as Selune. And, I don't care what you say, Jason Lee made a great Drizzt. I do agree that Jay and Silent Bob as Elminster and Khelben was a mistake, though. It's too bad they had to tone it down to PG to appeal to the majority of the fanbase.