3-Book D&D (3.5)

[Drew Bergstrom]

About a month ago I got the news that my best friend's wife, after battling cancer for years, had passed.

After making certain that he, and their 2 girls were doing okay; and making arrangements to visit them in the near future, I got a little philosophical over a glass of vodka and grapefruit juice (that's a "greyhound" for you boozehounds).

After taking a long, hard, brutally honest and perhaps long overdue look at myself I realized how unhappy I was with my life.

Now a little background is probably neccesary here. I'm nearly 36 years old and have been on disability because of a severe chemical imbalance for years; and was suffering undiagnosed for many years before I broke down around 2000.

I got into gaming to escape my life, and I did a damn fine job of it. I realised that gaming had become my life, and that was unacceptable. I wanted a life with gaming in it to be certain. But the life I had was consumed by gaming.

That's when I decided to sell most of my gaming materials at the local Half Price Books, and to buy into D&D and d20 Modern. Furthermore, for D&D I chose only to buy the 3 core books and run using them exclusively. Because I was uncertain how to (and in truth had zero interest in) stocking a dungeon I've bought many of Goodman Games' Dungeon Crawl Classics to run my players through.

Thursday, my new campaign, an "adventure path" presented in DCC 35, begins.

Now I haven't run D&D in any form for over a decade so I am a bit nervous about that. Furthermore I wondering how viable a long term D&D campaign is, when using only the 3 core rulebooks.

Advice and comments are welcomed.

and you'll be able to follow my campaign in an actual play thread to be entitles Known Realms: Lords of the Kingdom.

[SDriver]

If I were going to run D&D 3.5, it would be "core books only."

[Skywalker]

Very viable. There is more than enough stuff in those three bookjs there to fill 2 RPGs. In fact, my preferred D&D would be the three corebooks with some of the stuff stripped out :)

If you need proof (and this is not an attempt to pimp another book) take a look at Ptolus. It uses almost exclusively the three corebooks. However, the well put together city setting it contains produces at least 3 1st to 20th level campaigns with very little work at all, and probably a lot more with work involved.

[Aesthete]

Yeah, I run core books only in terms of rules. I got some setting stuff, but that's mostly because I don't have the time and inclination to write up my own setting material. Other than that, 3 core book stuff is solid.

[naturaltwenty]

First of all - don't be nervous. You've got some good core material there. The ability to run an awesome campaign is at your fingertips. The Goodman Games material is just right for using the three core books.

As you'll read those adventures you'll see that that's primarily what they used to write them all (I can't say for sure that they all use just those but it's easy enough to modify).

If I were to restart a campaign I'd do just what you are doing (and I've said so in other threads). DCC 35 rocks hard. Just start small.

Later

[angelfromanotherpin]

Beware the well-publicized overpoweredness that is the Druid and the Cleric. Also be aware that with just the Feats in the core book, the Fighter doesn't have a lot to do past 10th level or so.

As for maintaining a long-term campaign, the question becomes: what's the campaign about? The D&D system is chiefly about tactical engagements, so a game that functions like the old Vandal Hearts console game, alternating plot development/exposition with entertaining tactical puzzles could do very well. There's certainly enough material in those three books to keep coming up with new and interesting encounters for quite some time.

[Yakk]

At 3.33 encounters per night, 13.33 encounters per level, 1 session per week, your party will reach L 11 in about a year, by the SRD. Not all of these encounters have to be fights.

Around that point, D&D starts breaking down -- but you have a year, and you can always start a new campaign. :)

You can tweak advancement rates based off the length of the campaign, the encounters per night, the number of meetings per week, and how long you want the game to last. (the above is just the baseline rate)

Be careful with spellcasters -- they can become gross rather easily.

Keep an eye out for munkinism. Magic item shoppes can easily ruin D&D. Every copy of a spell is a magic item. Tailor magic items for the party, with some random stuff thrown in, but never let them pick and choose magic items. If a character dominates the game, simply start tailoring a larger share of items for the other party members.

Some key houserules:
Spells that replace skillmonkey abilities (like knock) should grant a roll at (10+caster level/2) skill.

Divine spellcasters need a limited spell list, not "any spell they want from the list".

[joewolz]

I've only ever run D&D straight from the three corebooks. It works great!

I know nothing of d20 Modern, however.

[PaladinCA]

Everything you need is in the core rules. Everything else is added on according to your own desire. The only way I will run D&D 3.5 is using the core rules and perhaps a few of the optional monster compendiums for variety. D&D 3.x, like its predecessor (AD&D 2nd Edition), has become bloated with rules expansions almost to the point of being absurd.

Sure, there are some really good supplments and some of them may even be considered useful (Unearthed Arcana & Spell Compendium for example), but to try and use every single book out there would probably drive one insane or prove to be very difficult to manage.

I didn't like D20 Modern very much. Then again, I probably didn't give it much of a chance either.

[JDCorley]

Actually, 2-book D&D is both viable and interesting, with no monsters but instead with the bad guys being human, dwarves, elves, half-orcs and whatnot.

Hell, 1-book D&D is viable and interesting if you're experienced in world-building.

[hackmastergeneral]

Theres loads of stuff in 3 book D&D.

I personally enjoy high level D&D, although going above level 20 is difficult with just core rules. But, isn't neccessary. Most groups don't game consistantly that long. My group are just obsessive in gaming.

There is good stuff in the extra books. The "Complete" series of WOTC splats are good, for the most part, but don't worry about those until you get way more comfortable with the core rules, if then. Some classes, like Warlock, Dragon Shaman, and Warmage, are nice for beginning characters, but not uber-neccessary overall.

I like the alterna-classes and PrCs in the extra books, and we use EVERYTHING just about, and our DM doesn't get overloaded. If the players know their alterna-class inside and out, you don't really need to.

But don't worry about it. Theres LOTS of good adventures out there, and theres years of good gaming in 3 book core D&D.

Have fun.

[ryand]

Furthermore I wondering how viable a long term D&D campaign is, when using only the 3 core rulebooks.

D&D 3/3.5, by design, changes roughly every 5 levels. You may find that your group becomes comfortable in one of those 4 quartiles, or you may find that your group enjoys the changes of pace that happen when moving from quartile to quartile.

You will likely find that access to a handful of spells (and to a lesser extent, some magic items) makes certain kinds of adventures (mostly "dungeon crawls") impossible. You will be able to identify those spells easily (they're the ones that the PCs "out of the box" of the dungeon map. By fiat, you can remove those spells, and that keeps the game nicely centered in adventures where the PCs can influences pretty much only those things they can see with the naked eye.

You will find that if some of your players min-max their abilities; especially the rogue and the cleric, they will create situations where the difficulties they need to face to challenge their abilities will have target values (DCs) much higher than those used against the rest of the party. That is typically mostly harmless, because you'll be able to see that coming, and scale the necessary challenges upwards to keep the game fun for them, without impacting the rest of the players much.

The key issue you will have to decide on is whether to use the baseline assumptions regarding the ability of spellcasters to make magic items. If you allow potions & scrolls only (which is pretty common) you will need to pay special attention to the equipment worn by the PCs to keep them properly equipped to face tougher and tougher monsters (per the Monster Manual). If you do allow the casters to create items, or you assume that magic items can be "bought" off the rack made to order, then the players need to take responsibility for dealing with their own equipment; if they fritter money away on things that don't keep them competitive with the escalating challenges, they'll pay the price.

I think you'll find that D&D is a good long-term gaming investment, and that you'll have years of good fun with the game even playing the rules as written, without any supplements. Good luck!

Ryan

[Stattick]

First off, I'm not trying to be snarky here.

But since when does D&D have 3 core rule books?

The last time I checked (about a week ago, just out of morbid curiosity), there were 8 core rule books: Player's handbook 1 & 2, Dungeon Master's Guide 1 & 2, and Monster manuals 1-4.

Add to that 1 setting book, and 1 book of optional stuff that you like, and it's 10 books.

At about $40 a book, that's a $400 buy-in. There's also rumors that they're going to be working on 4th edition soon, making that $400 buy-in obsolete in a couple of years.

Of course the 4th edition thing is just a rumor, and might be a baseless one at that.

And I stopped playing D&D back in the days of 2nd Edition, so it might be that most of the books I listed above aren't actually core books, but actually "optional" books that were made to look like corebooks.

[Deekin]

That's funny, only three of my books say core rule book. Player's handbook, DMG and MM. PHB II and DMG II are Expansions for the PHB and DMG, same with the MM 2-4.

Btw, Stattick, you come off as really snarky.

[PaladinCA]

But since when does D&D have 3 core rule books?

The only books you need are the PHB, the DMG, and the MM. Everything else is uneccessary and totally optional.

I don't use and don't plan on using PHB2 or DMG2 and they are not necessary.

I do use some of the Monster Manuals and the Scarred Lands setting, but there is no need for them.

I could create and run a completely satisfying game using my own setting with just the three core books.

If you don't want to create your own setting you can buy a setting book. So four books at most would be needed. Since you can get the 3 core rulebooks in a nice gift set for around $57 and a setting book for $28, that would come to $85.

[Maijin Drew]

All I use is the SRD. I don't even own the core books (though my friend does).

Then again, I like building settings as much as I like running them, so I don't really need setting books...

Of course, I don't run D&D that often, and the next one I'm planning is going to be using the old Rules Cyclopedia.

[Keefe the Thief]

I run an Ebberon game just with the Eberron Campaign Setting & SRD & eTools- the players weren´t sure if they wanted to game D&D 3.5 long term, so nobody could be arsed to buy a PHB (i still have the 3.0 PHB & DMG for referencing).

I think we could play for a LONG time that way, but for the next session the players are going to buy a Players Handbook, and we´ll see how it goes from there. After that, perhaps PHB II, because i really, really dig the affiliation system - one of the best add-ons for D&D in YEARS.

If you are somewhat experienced with RPGs, you could even play D&D just with a PHB and the copious stat-blocks you´ll find in the SRD, on the WotC-Homepage (one of the BEST if it comes to free ressources) and on fan-pages. I have a .odt - document where i store all those stat-blocks i pulled out of free sources or which i typed in from my books, and in a couple of months i think i could run games out of that database alone.

[Stattick]

That's funny, only three of my books say core rule book. Player's handbook, DMG and MM. PHB II and DMG II are Expansions for the PHB and DMG, same with the MM 2-4.

Btw, Stattick, you come off as really snarky.

Ah, so PHB II, DMG II, and MM II-IV are only optional expansions then. Hmm, the guy down at the FLGS didn't key me in on that one. Neither did anything about those books key me in on the apparent fact that they're optional. Granted, I probably didn't take a close look at them.

The guy at the FLGS also didn't mention that the 3 core books are available as a package deal for $57 either (a pretty good deal actually). Of course, he probably didn't care as it was quite obvious talking to him that he's sick of d20, and he probably also knew that I'd rather get kicked in the shin then play d20. At least it's good to know that Hasbro isn't trying to rape the gamers out there by trying to get them to buy 8 core books.

And I'm sorry if I'm coming off as snarky. I just happen to hate d20, and think it's the worst thing to have happened in gaming since... well ever really. But I'm trying to be respectful of those that DO like d20. (I'm probably not succeeding very well, but hatred's funny like that.) Well I'll leave the d20 games to you then, and try not to butt in again.

[naturaltwenty]

Sorry for the short response and tangent but we should hook you up with Jody Butt.



And I'm sorry if I'm coming off as snarky. I just happen to hate d20, and think it's the worst thing to have happened in gaming since... well ever really. But I'm trying to be respectful of those that DO like d20. (I'm probably not succeeding very well, but hatred's funny like that.) Well I'll leave the d20 games to you then, and try not to butt in again.

[Mokuren]

As it has been mentioned already, a good SRD (http://www.d20srd.org) is all you really need, but if you own the books already that's not really an issue (still, check that SRD, it's got out-of-core-books SRD stuff and handy reference tables too).

There's plenty you can do without expansions, you can make other things up if you really need them, you basically have everything you need, supplements simply lay more road and hooks for you, but really, they're mostly useful for the mechanics only if you're an experienced GM.

Even if you aren't, the most important thing is DON'T PANIC.

You might want a bit of time to try figure (possibly with your players) what kind of campaign you want to run, from where to where in terms of PC power, take some time to set it up, and then run it.

And be ready anytime to throw all the preparation straight to the burning hell if it gets in your way with something.

[Jesse_Lowe]

It's very viable. I would (and have!) add a few more books under the "nice but not necessary" clause:


DMG 2, for the good advice therein.
Unearthed Arcana, for a treasure-trove of alternate rules. I actually consider this a "4th core book" since it's so handy for tweaking your game.
A campaign setting, for not having to make stuff up when you don't feel like it. For me, it's a toss-up between Greyhawk and Eberron. This is probably the least necessary of the extras, just because there are so many campaign settings floating around on the Web.

[blizack]

I'm currently running Ptolus with just the three core rulebooks, plus Unearthed Arcana, and it's going extremely well. We'll see if it starts to break down around 11th level or so, like our Planescape campaign (which allowed all the extra books)did.

[Skywalker]

I'm currently running Ptolus with just the three core rulebooks, plus Unearthed Arcana, and it's going extremely well. We'll see if it starts to break down around 11th level or so, like our Planescape campaign (which allowed all the extra books)did.

What are you using from Unearthed Arcana?

[PaladinCA]

The guy at the FLGS also didn't mention that the 3 core books are available as a package deal for $57 either (a pretty good deal actually).

Certainly not at the FLGS. Amazon has it for that.

Make no mistake, WotC is not in this for love of the game. They are in this for the money, as any business is. They push out a ton of stuff, yet gamers are buying it so WotC must be doing something right.

You may hate d20 and you may think that it is the worst thing that ever happened to the RPG hobby, but without its predecessor (D&D) there wouldn't likely be much of a RPG hobby, if any RPG hobby at all.

[blizack]

What are you using from Unearthed Arcana?

Well, I'm allowing most of the class variants and bloodlines, for one thing. Most of the players left these alone, but one took to them with gusto and made a bardic sage with a vampiric bloodline. Other than that, for now I'm just using action points, and I'm considering using WP/VP and possibly the AC defense bonuses down the road.

[Stattick]

You may hate d20 and you may think that it is the worst thing that ever happened to the RPG hobby, but without its predecessor (D&D) there wouldn't likely be much of a RPG hobby, if any RPG hobby at all.

True.

But I didn't hate D&D until d20 came along. Granted, it was no longer my game of choice, but I might play it if someone else was running it. See, for me, 3.X fixed none of the real problems of 2nd edition, and then added a bunch of bigger problems. So, from my perspective, they took a moderately playable game, and then just broke the hell out of it. Then they created the open gaming license and invited all of the hacks out there to create stuff for d20, while simultaneously hurting every other game system out there.

Obviously my opinion is in the minority, because d20 is still going strong and quite happily without me.

[PaladinCA]

Obviously my opinion is in the minority, because d20 is still going strong and quite happily without me.

Embrace the power of the Dark Side. :D

[Pete Whalley]

True.

But I didn't hate D&D until d20 came along. Granted, it was no longer my game of choice, but I might play it if someone else was running it. See, for me, 3.X fixed none of the real problems of 2nd edition, and then added a bunch of bigger problems. So, from my perspective, they took a moderately playable game, and then just broke the hell out of it. Then they created the open gaming license and invited all of the hacks out there to create stuff for d20, while simultaneously hurting every other game system out there.

Obviously my opinion is in the minority, because d20 is still going strong and quite happily without me.

Don't hate, it won't do any good, and you're wasting time that could be spent having fun with games you do enjoy.

By and by, I'm a fan of 3-book D&D, especially when it comes to introducing newbies to gaming.
I'll use settings like Forgotten Realms, or Eberron sometimes, and I do like the stuff in books like Expanded Psionics, or Magic of Incarnum. Altogether though, I can take or leave them, so long as I have my trusty PHB, DMG and MM.

(Besides, as was said upthread, the Monster Manual is far from necessary...it just gives you the rules for nasty monstrosities if you don't feel like doing them yourself).