"A completely unprecidented event"

[John Wick]

In this same period metaplot would take even more center stage with the release of Ends of the Empire (1999), which was not only the last Wraith book, but also a dramatic finale to the line. It allowed player characters to play out the last story in Wraith, ultimately resolving the game's metaplot--an entirely unprecedented event.

*cough cough* TORG!
*cough cough* DUNKLEZHAN'S ELECTION!
*cough cough* L5R!

Not sayin'. Just sayin'.

(I listed L5R last because we got the idea from those other guys.)

[Darren MacLennan]

*cough cough* TORG!
*cough cough* DUNKLEZHAN'S ELECTION!
*cough cough* L5R!

Not sayin'. Just sayin'.

(I listed L5R last because we got the idea from those other guys.)

TORG ended its gameline with an adventure that you could run through.

Dunklezhan's Election, to the best of my knowledge, didn't end Shadowrun, but may have ended a particular sequence of events.

L5R's metaplot has not concluded; the confrontation between the Seven Thunders and Fu Leng took place in the card game, rather than the RPG.

-Darren MacLennan

[John Wick]

TORG ended its gameline with an adventure that you could run through.

Dunklezhan's Election, to the best of my knowledge, didn't end Shadowrun, but may have ended a particular sequence of events.

L5R's metaplot has not concluded; the confrontation between the Seven Thunders and Fu Leng took place in the card game, rather than the RPG.

-Darren MacLennan

Torg's end adventure was under the exact same circumstances as Wraith's. Therefore, that's the precedent. There were even "after-effect" updates in the last newsletter based on player response to the last adventure, which cannot be said of the Wraith product.

The Dunklezhan Election was influenced directly by player input. We all voted and influenced how the supplement was written.

When we did it with L5R, the players completely changed the ending, forcing me to improvise off-script, writing a new ending right then and there. That it was a CCG and not an RPG is just splitting hairs.

The end of the Wraith game had nothing to do with the players' input at all. White Wolf wrote it and the players played it. No influence on any future products, no follow-up on player participation in the adventure. Nothing of the kind.

The three games I listed were directly changed by direct player interaction with the designers.

I'm more impressed by those three accomplishments than I am with White Wolf "allowing" players to interact with a pre-written ending with no follow-up.

[smascrns]

In the context of the colum it seems to me that when Shannon uses the expression "entirely unprecedented event" he is referring to WW's game lines, not to the rpg business as a whole, but I may be wrong.

[Tim Ellis]

*cough cough* TORG!
*cough cough* DUNKLEZHAN'S ELECTION!
*cough cough* L5R!

Not sayin'. Just sayin'.

(I listed L5R last because we got the idea from those other guys.)

I always thought Torg just sort of fizzled out. But I never paid it too much attention, because I thought the whole players feeding back into the metaplot idea was stupid.

Dunklezhan's Election didn't end the Shadowrun Gameline. It didn't even end my interest in it, because the change from SR1 to SR2 pretty much did that. It was a pretty clear indiction, though that the Authors were more interested in telling their stories than supporting us in telling ours. (If players genuinely have the chance to affect who gets elected then the game line can't come along and tell us what the "right" answer is. L5R had the same problem with the Hare Clan adventure in the first GM's Screen. That was presented as a perfectly open scenario where the players could get involved and lead to any number of different outcomes - right up until Way of the Minor Clans came out and laid down the "offical" outcome, along with the fates of most of the NPC's who up to that point may have had entirely different roles in individual games.

L5R's Metaplot hasn't ended. (Unfortunately). It has provided RPG books to allow you to "play through" the climax of the story arcs, but as these were written for the CCG they are not the best books in the L5R line.

Wasn't the thing about the resolution of the Wraith Metaplot that it effectively "killed off" the wraiths? In which case the closest comparison would be the battle of Camlann in Pendragon, which brings to an end the reign of King Arthur, and also of most of his Knights - but that wasn't written up until the Grand Pendragon Campaign...

[John Wick]

I always thought Torg just sort of fizzled out. But I never paid it too much attention, because I thought the whole players feeding back into the metaplot idea was stupid.

Wasn't the thing about the resolution of the Wraith Metaplot that it effectively "killed off" the wraiths? In which case the closest comparison would be the battle of Camlann in Pendragon, which brings to an end the reign of King Arthur, and also of most of his Knights - but that wasn't written up until the Grand Pendragon Campaign...

TORG did not "fizzle out" any more than Wraith did. The two examples are exactly the same, except the TORG players really did influence the ending in a direct way. As I said, there was even a follow up issue of the newsletter that detailed how the players influenced the ending of the Reality War.

As for the rest of it, again, we are splitting hairs. The players of the last Wraith scenario did not participate in any way with the storyline. They witnessed it. They witnessed the end of a game line.

The same can be said of TORG players, with a bonus. They actually influenced it. So, there was a precedent. In fact, there was precedent and a bonus.

And no, the Wraiths didn't die. They became Hunters. And then they morphed over to the Orpheus Project. (Or whatever that was called.)

[toonbates]

And no, the Wraiths didn't die. They became Hunters. And then they morphed over to the Orpheus Project. (Or whatever that was called.)
Not correct, sorry. The Orpheus books did resurrect wraiths in a somewhat different fashion, but wraiths did not become the Imbued from Hunter. A different force (angels, basically) gave the hunters their powers. In fact, wraiths were targets of hunters (just like all the other supernaturals in the WoD).

Bates

[ShannonA]

I appreciate the heads up on the Torg ender, John. That indeed sounds like a precedent. What was it called?

And anyone want to give me more info on the whole election of Dunlekhazhan thing? How was it run? How did the company try to influence it with their supplements? What were the ultimate results?

[Emprint]

Not correct, sorry. The Orpheus books did resurrect wraiths in a somewhat different fashion, but wraiths did not become the Imbued from Hunter. A different force (angels, basically) gave the hunters their powers. In fact, wraiths were targets of hunters (just like all the other supernaturals in the WoD).

In fact, ghosts were the most numerous antagonists for hunters.

[Tim Ellis]

.

The same can be said of TORG players, with a bonus. They actually influenced it. So, there was a precedent. In fact, there was precedent and a bonus.


A Bonus in the same way that recording a TV show "off air" rather than buying the DVD Boxed set has a bonus in that it contains all the commercial breaks...

If the USP of a scenario is that it allows you to influence what will appear in print subsequently then it becomes useless once the next supplement comes out.

If a scenario takes the "average result" of several player groups to determine the outcome then any group that did not take this route is left needing to retcon their game if they want to use the next scenario

If a set of linked scenarios are to be published with feed back from each one affecting the next then they are only of any use to groups whose campaign can be run at the same pace as the publication schedule. If you run too fast then you are left with gaps in your knowledge because the outcome of events is unknown. If you run to slow (or start to late) then you are being excluded from the process.

[Roland]

I appreciate the heads up on the Torg ender, John. That indeed sounds like a precedent. What was it called?


"War's End" (John Terra, WEG, 1995)


And anyone want to give me more info on the whole election of Dunlekhazhan thing? How was it run? How did the company try to influence it with their supplements? What were the ultimate results?

The campaign book covering the election was "Super Tuesday" (Steve Kenson, FASA, 1996)