[FFVII/trivia] Is Sephiroth a Kabbalah reference?

[Chikahiro]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sefirot

I actually have barely played the game, but I wondered this as I did a calendar listing for the paper I work at.

I know very little about old' Sepphy, so I'm actually wondering if there's a reference to something, a reference to something else, or if its one of those "Hey, that foreign word sounds cool!" like all Rock (Rock Howard from Garou: MOTW and Rock from Soul Caliber - not sure what they were thinking there...).

[LowBeyonder]

I could probably make a really fanwank-y reach for it, but on face, I can't think of any notably interesting correspondances. I'd go with "sounds cool".

[Peter Svensson]

Sephiroth is a Kabbalah reference only in that the Kabbalah is mystical and connects man to god, and that's what Sephiroth believed himself to be, roughly.

[Dorchadas]

Looking into religions not native to your culture for references so you can be cool and edgy is not restricted to America.

[Chikahiro]

Looking into religions not native to your culture for references so you can be cool and edgy is not restricted to America.

I realize. I was just wondering how much of the original meaning made it into the game, how many liberties were taken, etc. Kinda wondering if it was more than the typical "Burger King" spirituality ("Now at BK! Buddha Burger, Catholic Fries, and a tall, refreshing Tantra cola!").

BTW, the calendar listing was for "Sefirotic Alignment Therapy." Not that I claim to understand what that means (I just type 'em in).

[Dorchadas]

I apologize--I wasn't trying to be dismissive. :o I just don't think there's much, if any, connection between the two beyond the names.

[Chikahiro]

I apologize--I wasn't trying to be dismissive. :o I just don't think there's much, if any, connection between the two beyond the names.

Oh, no worries - I didn't think you were. Its just sometimes a reference is very superficial, and sometimes they take the ball and run with it (Valkyrie Profile?). Subtle hints are nice, but fully developed ideas are better :)

[Ottergame]

Looking into religions not native to your culture for references so you can be cool and edgy is not restricted to America.

Final Fantasy games have always been full of elements borrowed from non-Japanese religions, namely Eastern ones. But many of these have namely been in name only. "Shiva" is a Hindu god, a male. Shiva is always a queen of ice in FF.

Others are more literal. Odin is a Norse god of War, and the FF summonings follow his mythology.

So, is old Sephy's role similar to that of that Sephirot? Very likely. It's not surprising, nor is it very deep or clever.

[Stephenls]

Final Fantasy games have always been full of elements borrowed from non-Japanese religions, namely Eastern ones. But many of these have namely been in name only. "Shiva" is a Hindu god, a male. Shiva is always a queen of ice in FF.

Well, in XII, the Shiva is an airship....

[Ghostwise]

So, is old Sephy's role similar to that of that Sephirot?

In the Kaballah a Sephirot is not quite a role/person -- it's a concept halfway between a world/dimension, an encoded concept and an attribute of YVH.

[Ikselam]

A sephirah is one of the ten aspects of God. Together, the 10 sephiroth form the Tree of Life, which you've probably seen before if you've ever been even a little curious about Qabbalah (or have read Alan Moore's Promethea comic, or watched Evangelion).

Any connection to the videogame character would be tenuous at best. Pretty sure it was just a "sounds cool" thing.

[David J Prokopetz]

But many of these have namely been in name only. "Shiva" is a Hindu god, a male. Shiva is always a queen of ice in FF.IIRC, the name "Shiva" - as in the female ice-spirit that turns up in most Final Fantasy games - is a play on the English word "shiver". That it's also the name of a Hindu deity is entirely coincidental.

("Shiva" is about how the word "shiver" would come out if a native Japanese speaker attempted to pronounce it, as the Japanese language contains no terminal consonants other than N; i.e., Japanese words always end in a vowel sound, with the exception of words that end with N.)

[Chikahiro]

The trick depends on how they romanized it. If it was based on how it sounded, shiver would be shiva. If it was off how it was spelled? Shiva again. If it was Shiva, then it might be shiiva.

Arg - been so long since I've used my Japanese, I'm practically monolingual again. How embarassing @_@

[Wizdoc]

Japanese RPGs (and manga & anime) tend to throw in cool-sounding western religious words and imagery around without much thought to their actual relevance.

Guess when katanas and ninjas and such are bland and common in your culture, you tend to go with the other side of the world to get that novelty fix.

[Coyote's Own]

One of the popular theories is that Square got Sephiroth (an esoteric Kabbalah) and Seraphim (an angel rank) mix up.

[RemyDuron]

I've seen some very complex conspiracy-theory-esque connections, but really I think they just took a really cool sounding word and put it to a really cool character.

It's like NGE, which has TONS of references to Christianity but most of them mean absolutely nothing and are really pointless (I believe this was on purpose, the creator misleading the audience).

[Chikahiro]

NGE?

[David J Prokopetz]

It's like NGE, which has TONS of references to Christianity but most of them mean absolutely nothing and are really pointless (I believe this was on purpose, the creator misleading the audience).That, plus the usual grand conspiracy angle. (i.e., "All this weirdness is the real story, and what we know as Christianity is a mixed-up, mythologised ancestral-memory version of what's going on here.")

[Ikselam]

NGE?

Neon Genesis Evangelion.


Fun fact, Gendo has the Sephirotic Tree of Life diagrammed on the ceiling of his office.

[BuzzW]

The trick depends on how they romanized it. If it was based on how it sounded, shiver would be shiva. If it was off how it was spelled? Shiva again. If it was Shiva, then it might be shiiva.

Wouldn't it come out as shiba? They don't have a 'v' sound either.

[Chikahiro]

Wouldn't it come out as shiba? They don't have a 'v' sound either.

True. Like I said, it's been a while, and after a while I've glossed over some of those details, mentally.

"Rlow, rlow, rlow yo-ru boa-tu, me-rle-rle-rli doun te su-to-rii-mu..." :)

[Ikselam]

Wouldn't it come out as shiba? They don't have a 'v' sound either.

There's a katakana character for the "V" sound. It's not a sound which occurs naturally in Japanese, but for some reason it exists in their foreign-words-and-onomatopoeia syllabary.

[Chikahiro]

There's a katakana character for the "V" sound. It's not a sound which occurs naturally in Japanese, but for some reason it exists in their foreign-words-and-onomatopoeia syllabary.

iirc, its more like their "b" sounds have a bit of a "v" to 'em (much like their "r"s and "l"s are mixed), or substitute for ("I rike riding my bicycle bery much.").

[RemyDuron]

There is a way to write Va, Vi, Vu, Ve, Vo I think, just like you can write si in katakana, it's just more trouble than it's worth.